SBH Lazarus Armor

[Mystic~]

Please read this before voting:

In another topic it was proposed that the SBHs unique Lazarus armour (alluding to the myth of Lazarus rejuvenation and rising from the dead) should mean the unit is self healing just like the mammoth tank is, all of the time and even without having to reach higher veterancy milestones to do this. It gives the unit more value and a little longer life expectancy if they get splash damaged by an MRL or they run into a single mine trying to infiltrate into a base, which can be super frustrating... it would be the only unit to my knowledge that could do this without having to rely upon veternacy milestones to do this.

If you choose "Other" in the poll option, please expand as to why you chose this in the comments. 

Edit: Just to clarify, by healing, I'm talking about its health and armour slowly returns to full health once they've disengaged from a battle, not during a fire fight.
 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Mystic~

[Reivax]

honestly?
no.
SBH are already strong - against snipers, healers, wounded people, damaged tanks and MRLS.
one of my fav hobbies as SBH is to destroy damaged medium tanks, ez vp  
they don't need this kind of buff - to my opinion
excepts for the SMG cuz it's horrible to use :ayaya:

[Mystic~]

I don't like the silenced Uzi, I think this kind of assassination weapon is rather cheap in this game, I'd rather see it replaced with just a rep tool for disarming mines, as most people buy one anyway if they can afford it. The noisy laser is what balances its ability to get to many places undetected and fire the first shots and I'd rather this be its only weapon.

Apart from the SBH stealth ability I actually see them as quite a weak unit that is easily killed, I know their stats improved a little with recent tweaks, but not that much. They are of course really useful regardless, but it's such a ball ache when you sustain damage as one, particularly when the battle field is a constant blaze of flying missiles and tank shells exploding nearby renders it much less useful and tunnels are well camped/protected. I think a self-healing ability over time when not engaged in a fight is just another small but significant add on they deserve. The armour is actually called Lazarus armour though, I don't know who gave it that name, but as already mentioned it means to heal or bring back to life. Once a player levels up in veteran skill point levels, I believe it gains this ability anyway as many things seem to self heal, I'm merely proposing it becomes default to this unit even at the basic levels.

If you watch the television series Expanse, the elite commandos from the stealth ships have some sort of intelligent armour that repairs or plugs the suit when hit and if you follow other tech armour or games like Mass Effect, players can use suit medi-gel to heal. Even in the Renegade Universe the stealth armour is clearly advanced tech, so it doesn't feel out of place.

The more I think about the amount of times you have to run back and grab a refill as any character just because you sustained damage during a fight the more I think Renegade is just far behind the times... I'd rather Hotwires and Techs were for repairing tanks only (radiation gun) and if only there were some other genius way of healing during a game that doesn't detract from tank repairs; but I stick with the sbh request for now. Maybe the repair guns should start dealing moderate radiation damage against an enemy player instead.

There were several people who commented this was a good idea before in the other thread, so please vote if you haven't already.

[Reivax]

56 minutes ago, Mystic~ said:

If you watch the television series Expanse, the elite commandos from the stealth ships have some sort of intelligent armour that repairs or plugs the suit when hit and if you follow other tech armour or games like Mass Effect, players can use suit medi-gel to heal. Even in the Renegade Universe the stealth armour is clearly advanced tech, so it doesn't feel out of place.

you probably don't know how many meowcoins i could give to the devs if they makes Mendoza and Mobius able to self-heal :ayaya:
refill is horrible, i dream to have an healer with me for the entire game but i've nobody to be my "personnal healer"  

[BlackHand12412]

I like this idea but it has to be after like 5 or 10 seconds of no damage and it takes like 2 minutes to go from 0 armor to full just my opinon

[roweboat]

I think it could be an interesting way to force sbh to be scout and infiltrator vs offensive, but I think more work would have to be done to stats and weapon load out.

[Mystic~]

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I like this idea but it has to be after like 5 or 10 seconds of no damage and it takes like 2 minutes to go from 0 armor to full just my opinon

I agree with the first part, it's being able to retreat or find cover and then knowing you'll begin to heal over time, not being able to heal instantly or during a fight, which I think would be too unfair. 2 minutes is probably far too long for it to work or be beneficial though, I'm thinking more like 15-20 seconds once out of danger. In most respects, it replaces the need for having another team mate with you with a rep tool to heal.

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I think it could be an interesting way to force sbh to be scout and infiltrator vs offensive, but I think more work would have to be done to stats and weapon load out.

I see the SBH mainly as spy/infiltration class anyway as it's weapon is only so useful attacking head on or when exposed.

[Syntharn]

Are you crazy!? This will make them even MORE passive and prone to stand around doing nothing.
I would rather see them spontaniosly catch fire if they fail to accomplish anything within a set amount of time.

[yosh56]

37 minutes ago, Syntharn1 said:

Are you crazy!? This will make them even MORE passive and prone to stand around doing nothing.
I would rather see them spontaniosly catch fire if they fail to accomplish anything within a set amount of time.

 

[Reivax]

2 hours ago, Syntharn1 said:

Are you crazy!? This will make them even MORE passive and prone to stand around doing nothing.
I would rather see them spontaniosly catch fire if they fail to accomplish anything within a set amount of time.

 

[Mystic~]

Quote

This will make them even MORE passive and prone to stand around doing nothing.

Please justify this point, give example(s) if necessary so I can understand or see your point, because I don't agree and if you forgive the bluntness, you three look like you're circle-jerking each other (Reivax and Yosh) by re-posting/quoting the same thing.

If a player wants to fanny about wasting time and doing nothing productive for the team, that is their choice and they can carry on doing this with or without the implementation of this suggestion. It's already possible for 2 SBH to heal one another with a rep tool assuming they're doing an infiltration together or a beacon plant. I'm trying to limit the amount of unnecessary silly tedium tasks this game requires and reduce the risk of being killed and spotted before any plan gets into motion. 

I'm inclined to believe that if the sbh could heal, then an sbh might actually take more risks and do more for the team and perhaps less would be wasted doing things like back and fourth trips to refill health or maybe they don't waste that beacon opportunity through receiving random splash damage and being easily picked off.

But seriously, Jesus f—ing Christ I'm starting to think and feel like nobody else gives a damn about refining anything in this game anymore and you can't even be bothered to leave your own comment or feedback. Do correct me if I am wrong on this next point, but do some other characters not already "self-heal" once you become Elite or something like that? Does a Mammoth tank not already self-heal? I have to ask why this tank can, even though it really doesn't need it. Why the hell is the SBH armour called Lazarus armour if it possess absolutely none of these healing qualities inherent to it? Why did the devs bother to implement healing into the veteran points system at all?

This must be one of the most rational, sane, easy to implement, slight added benefit and none game breaking positive suggestions presently being put out there.

 

[roweboat]

Great discussion 🤣

 

Well that ideas ax'd i think.

[Mystic~]

Why is it axed precisely?

Edited January 20, 2020 by Mystic~

[Tytonium]

I think if SBH were able to just regen health and not armor that would be pretty cool. I can't tell u the amount of times I have accidentally fell off a 5 foot drop and taken fall damage, leaving me with less than 51 health and stranded in the middle of a firefight completely exposed and utterly screwed.

I don't think being able to regen armor would be fair though, as a single SBH without a rep gun could slowly whittle away at mines in a building without ever having to uncloak. If a sbh only regened health, they cannot just tank mines repeatedly and would need to carry a rep gun.

[Reivax]

4 minutes ago, Tytonium said:

I think if SBH were able to just regen health and not armor that would be pretty cool.

Honestly, i think it's a bad idea
a few hours ago we've played on Field
a SBH battalion harrased us on the field - killing hotwires and snipers, C4ing MRLS, destroying damaged tanks, using airstrikes behind us, etc...
they are already strong. they can sneak in buildings behind GDI army, they can oneshot MRLS, they can easily kill snipers, they can kill wounded 1k chars and destroy heavily damaged tanks, they can harass harvesters, etc... they already are strong.
if you want to make them able to regen health.. remove their cloak generator  

oh and.. why make a self-heal for a cloaked char but let my Mendoza without self-heal? Mendoza is sad because Technicians don't like him, so Mendoza could be freakin' happy to have a self-heal ability  

[roweboat]

1 hour ago, Reivax said:

Honestly, i think it's a bad idea
a few hours ago we've played on Field
a SBH battalion harrased us on the field - killing hotwires and snipers, C4ing MRLS, destroying damaged tanks, using airstrikes behind us, etc...
they are already strong. they can sneak in buildings behind GDI army, they can oneshot MRLS, they can easily kill snipers, they can kill wounded 1k chars and destroy heavily damaged tanks, they can harass harvesters, etc... they already are strong.
if you want to make them able to regen health.. remove their cloak generator  

oh and.. why make a self-heal for a cloaked char but let my Mendoza without self-heal? Mendoza is sad because Technicians don't like him, so Mendoza could be freakin' happy to have a self-heal ability  

Exactly. if any sort of extra special stealth healing was given to SBH, their SMG would have to be removed, and their laser gun would need to be nerfed.

[Tytonium]

54 minutes ago, roweboat said:

Exactly. if any sort of extra special stealth healing was given to SBH, their SMG would have to be removed, and their laser gun would need to be nerfed.

 

2 hours ago, Reivax said:

Honestly, i think it's a bad idea
a few hours ago we've played on Field
a SBH battalion harrased us on the field - killing hotwires and snipers, C4ing MRLS, destroying damaged tanks, using airstrikes behind us, etc...
they are already strong. they can sneak in buildings behind GDI army, they can oneshot MRLS, they can easily kill snipers, they can kill wounded 1k chars and destroy heavily damaged tanks, they can harass harvesters, etc... they already are strong.
if you want to make them able to regen health.. remove their cloak generator  

oh and.. why make a self-heal for a cloaked char but let my Mendoza without self-heal? Mendoza is sad because Technicians don't like him, so Mendoza could be freakin' happy to have a self-heal ability  

You both need to be careful about such pronounced hate of Stealth Black Hands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Syntharn]

How can i not rant about this, damn sbhs...

Why sbhs? Why should sbhs have health regeneration from recruit while no other classes have it? The mam is a massive 1500$ vehicle while the sbh costs 400 and has stealth to begin with, to add regeneration on top of that wouldn't be fair to all the other classes.
For any realistic balance, all infantry would have to be given regeneration from recruit and up, also consider that the regeneration can't be so good that it devalues the repair gun/tool, medics is a thing even if it isn't called that.
If its only suggested because of some reference to the name lazarus then there is more to pick from, we can give sbhs magic powers and make them guard Diablos lair.

A solo sbh is a useless sbh, some very few are good at trolling with them, maybe taking out a hotty or a sniper, holding a tech building etc...
Only thing is, YOU DONT NEED A SBH FOR ANY OF THAT, they are supposed to be infiltration units.
Whatever other task you can think of another class or vehicle can already do better and faster than an sbh waiting for the perfect moment that never comes.
They have low health and low firepower (laser rifle is versatile but pewpew...), they are weak.

Giving sbhs regeneration won't change any of that at the start of a firefight, but if they survive an encounter it would encourage them to camp or at least stay out of trouble until their health fills up. (insert picture of Nod team being rekt while sbh watches)

Sbhs strength lies in not being detected obviously, the average player however isn't competent enough to translate that strength into teamplay and offense, rather they focus so much on not being seen that they end up doing next to nothing, even if his teammates are dying right in front of him.
(its better to go find a crate, those win games? im more important than the entire front line so why risk it.)

Bottomline is that if a sbh doesn't cooperate with other sbhs and aims for building kills then they are fools who play sbhs just for the novelty of being invisible.
Know your strengths, know the meta.

Regardless of how much of a regeneration tick sbhs would get, it would make them more resilient towards mines, more resilient towards all the units that are scanning around for them. Just as stated, 2 sbhs can already repair eachother with tools, this in addition to the regeneration.
If they aren't going for buildings and by some small chance want to assist on the front lines then they can go find repairs just like every other unit there, just being able to cross the field invisible to reach a medic is a distinct advantage already.


Im sure someone is gonna be like "but what about really wounded buildings?  sbh can solo those reeely good."
True they can, just like a tech, lcg, rav, dosa, flame tank, stank, arty and ofc the best tank in the game LIGHT TANK!!!

[roweboat]

1 hour ago, Tytonium said:

 

You both need to be careful about such pronounced hate of Stealth Black Hands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ț̶͎͈̙̳͈̺͉̗̻̔͐̃͜ȟ̶̨̟̇ë̴̛̛̛̮̱̖̣͎͍̠͕̫́̀̿͂̎̅̋́̽̑ý̵̲͔̱̣̥͓̰̜̙̹̩͇̌̀̉̒̈́́͐̐̎̽́̚̚͝ ̵̢̲̮͖̱̞̝̹͍̫͙̍̓̒̃̊͛́̈́͋̌͛̒̚͘ą̴̢͖͍̱̮̯͚͚̼̘̩̭̿́͂̈́́̌̄͑̿̚͘͠r̵̢̢̖̗̯̱͈̤̺̪̖̥̈́̾̋̓̈́̾́͗͊̀̿ė̸̞̭̼̯͙̱͖̣̫ͅ/ẃ̵̨̡̛̙̺̟͖̤̭̻̖̳̖͇̪̫͐̊̈́̓̐̏̿̽̔̿̾̑̓̂̔͛̀͐̒̄̾̈́̍̓̆̏͂͗̈́̊̃̓́́̆̍̄͆̏̔̌̍̄͑̍̈́̒̓̒̋͛́̓̋̋̈́̈́́̂̉́̾̅͂̈́̂̄͒̇̂͌͗̒͐̆̓́̀͋̄̽̊̐̍̎̈́̑͐͘̕̚̕̕͘̕͜͠͝͝͠͝a̷̧̧̢̨̨̛̭̥̻̖̠̬͓͉̱̝̮̪̲̹͓̗̰̱̫̙̱̩̮̹̹̼̺̼͎̖͕̰̩͈̫̲̐̈͌̅̈͑̈́̋̊͂̃̐̏̾̎͂̇̊̉̈̍́́̅̀̋̑̑̈́̀̃̈́̋̐̎͆͑̓͌͋̔́͑͆̌͋͐̆̽͆͆̃͐̃̓̋͒͗̄͆͐́̽́̋͛͒̌͒͊͑̍̿͂̆̉̏̋̽̓͗̂̈́̐͗̿́̓̎͂͒͗̾̓͑̅͆̑̈͋̌̎̀̾́̆͋̾̀́́͂͌̎̍̕̚͘̕̚̕͝͝͝͠ͅt̵̡̢̛̫̗̬̯̼̹͉͚͇͔̱̞̙̙͔̹͓̣͖̰͎̱̹̟͈̗̙̭̬̪͇͍͓̜͙̠̝̗̦̖̋̔̒̉̀̈́́̀͌̊̎͊̑̅͐͛̏̋̋͛͐͑̃̊͌́̅͗̇̒͒͐͆͐̀́̂̍̑̅́̆̅̄̀͛̅́̏͛̀͒̎̑̓͒̽͐̾̆̅̓͗̾̎̾̃̀̑̓́͒̎̓͊̀̐̾̍̂͗͆̂̋̿̿͂̚̚̚͜͝͝͝͠͝͝ͅç̷̡͔̩̮͍̗͙̟̫͙̱̯͖͖̼̟̙̍̓̉̀͑͌͐̈͗̀̏̈͌̔́͛́̂͌͂́̔͋͒́̄͋͊͛̾̿͌̎̅̍̍͛̂̏͒͒̄̓̾͐̀͊̈̇̏͗̏̑̃͑̾͛̋̈́͋̐̒̍̉̂̄̿̐̽̃͂̓́̅͐̈́̄̒͆̓̇̄̿͌̅͌͒̂̀̃̍̃̕̚͜͝͝͝͝ḩ̶̡̡̧̧̢̧̧̡̢̨̢̨̧̛̱̦͇̪͎͍̞͚̪̯͈͉̖̲̪̫͚͙̫͕̱̝̦̯͍̫͔͈͕͉͍͈̜̠̟̫͖̱̯̟̝̦͓̪̼̗̬̗͙̼̟̗͈̝̱̠͇̜͙͚̬̠͉̤͚̙̪̳͎̟̘̪̥̞̬͚͈̖̲͉͙̮͈͈̯̗͖͍̟̟̬͉̂̈́̐͋͊̄̈́̅̏̓̆̌̎̈́̌͂̓͐̾͂̈́̏̎̋͗͌̿̇̈́̈͑̇̉̐̒̐̊͗̾͌͋̔̒̈́͗̀͑͆̈͆̍͊̏̉̌͆̈́͋̎͑̀̽̍̓̌́̈́́̈̅̀̓̈́̀̃̃̔̂̑͆̓͐̀̓̈̒͑͆̈́̆͐̿̊̉̑̾̇͂̓̓͗̄́̂̐̏͛͌͛̀̐́͗͘͘̕̚͝͠ͅͅͅī̷̢̧̨̧̢̡̛̛̛̛̛̛̤̤̤͇͙̥̥͎̜̦̦̻̙̩̭͇̫̥̟̦͉̖̥͍̫̱͉̩̤̯̣͓̣̙̘̦̖͚̞̺̻͖̫̘͙̭̗̦̤̘̮̤̭̠̮̰͈̟̞̖̞̻̰̫̜̦̯̼͕͙̹̰̦͔̰̰̰̠̝̤̙̜͇̖̝͙͎̘̠̗̗̻̘͔̈͐̌̉͐̔̈͊͑̊͒̇̍̅͊̀̀̃̍͛̇̅̔̅̈́́̐̓̋̈̈̒̆͐̒̆̆̂͑͑̌͐̈͋͌̄̊̌̋͐͂͋̂͌̀̉̔̽͊̆̊͂͛̃̇̽̇̾̓̈́͛̿͑́̇̈́͒̒̐̌̅̏̊͊̐̎͗̎̀͂͌̅̅̿̀̍̋̈́̊͋̌̅̊̄̉̎̅̏͊̋͒͂̍̈̌̍͆̎͛̏̒̚̚̚̚̚̚͘̕̚̕͜͜͜͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅͅͅn̵̢̧̨̡̧̧̢̧̨̫̺̥͙͓̖̰͙̰͖̣̹͓̻̟͈̰̘̳̺̠̹̭̹̬͔̼͉̣̳̙̤̣̮͕̭̺̺̺̣̤͆͐́̐̾̑͒͐̾͌̀͆͑̽̈́̾͗̍̆͒̓̍͂̈́́͛͐̆̿̉̇̿̽̎̃͊̓͗̊̋̃̚͘͘͜͠͠͠͝ǵ̶̢̡̨̨̨̢̢̢̡͎̯̺̘̩̤̫͓͙̝̱͈̣͉̲̤̹̝̺̘̝̖̗͙̟̲̤̟͚͔͕̹̟̻̻̘͔̥̟͔̟̣̗͙̦͕͇͍̘̺̭̬̦̺̺̼̠͓̥̦̬̖͓͔̖͔̯̲̪̬̥̦̱̹͓̭̞̪̖͔̙̥̠̠͓̟̲̠̬̾̓͘͜͜͝͝ͅͅ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How does that creepy Matrix text blend into the background like that.....

[Reivax]

18 hours ago, Tytonium said:

You both need to be careful about such pronounced hate of Stealth Black Hands.

there is no hate. SBH are balanced, you are asking to buff them really too much. Ask to increase Lazarus armor statistics, i can agree. But you're asking to smth who is.. really, really incredible.

SBH is the only stealth character. SBH can steal enemy tanks, disarm enemy mines, attack snipers behind enemy lines, harass healers, destroy damaged tanks, etc... it doesn't need a so strong buff.

Only players who will spend the entire match as SBH could like this kind of buff. You know, these SBHs on XMountain who will stay behind GDI tank army and wait to something but they don't know what they are waiting  

[Mystic~]

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I don't think being able to regen armor would be fair though, as a single SBH without a rep gun could slowly whittle away at mines in a building without ever having to uncloak. If a sbh only regened health, they cannot just tank mines repeatedly and would need to carry a rep gun.

I did think about this scenario, it's what they used to do before when they were weaker and 5 mines were used per door. I think if the mining pattern is close enough nobody would risk inching into them because of risk of dying setting 2 off and I'm not even confident how well they can survive one mine blast presently. I think they would continue to use rep tools and I've suggested somewhere else that maybe the silenced smg should even be replaced with a rep tool to make it an infiltration commando class. Could always bump it's price up slightly to be similar to the cost of an LCG. 

An SBH without any armour is such a vulnerable target though and I'm sure they already get full armour and health regenerative abilities at Elite or Heroic levels? I need to test this out as maybe I'm imagining it. If not, then someone needs to think of a new name so it isn't called Lazarus 'self-healing armour' that doesn't actually self heal anything.

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a SBH battalion harassed us on the field - killing hotwires and snipers, C4ing MRLS, destroying damaged tanks, using airstrikes behind us, etc...

Good! That's what players are supposed to do with them! And it's especially important when Nod gets locked into their base on certain maps and only low armour tanks to try to push out of a siege.

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Why sbhs? Why should sbhs have health regeneration from recruit while no other classes have it? To add regeneration on top of that wouldn't be fair to all the other classes.

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oh and.. why make a self-heal for a cloaked char but let my Mendoza without self-heal?

Because Mendoza doesn't have Lazarus armour and if it did, it would be a much stronger unit to use than presently and maybe require some sort of game balancing as it could survive and kill many times over until it's ganged up on. The SBH has a relatively weak gun and it's relatively easy to kill one once revealed.

Because it's already in the name of the armour and it's special tech armour that is supposed to be unique to that character! If you go on thinking like that you'll be moaning why don't all characters have access to the same abilities? We're talking about a very minor but potentially very useful add-on for the SBH and it isn't really going to make them anymore powerful than they already are, but it is perhaps going to eliminate the ball ache of refilling for health and give it better longevity as a useful infiltration unit that is very likely going to sustain splash damage just trying to reach it's target and more so now games are 30 v 30 and not 20 v 20. And just because they make useful infiltration units does't mean they're not useful for other things. Remember GDI has a massive tank armour advantage and Nod requires use of its tech/stealth to keep its place in the game often, the mammoth versus the ninja.

I thought about the idea of what if every class had self healing ability and honestly maybe it's a good idea, but at the moment I'm only pushing for the SBH because it has the name, the special armour and it fits. It's sort of similar to how the LCG has unlimited battery capacity on its gun, even though this is so unrealistic and no other units have this. And if everyone could do it, the sbh would still do it faster.

 

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Giving sbhs regeneration won't change any of that at the start of a firefight, but if they survive an encounter it would encourage them to camp or at least stay out of trouble until their health fills up.

That's exactly how it's supposed to work in theory! You're started supporting my idea now with a really poor counter argument that works against you. I can't think of that many situations where an SBH is going to step in and save you and if someone wants to idle about and do nothing well that's exactly the same risk you have of new players using them presently. I've spoken about the idea of toggle stealth ability by set time duration or even give GDI a special stealth sweep radar style scan, but digressing from the topic.

I'm not really seeing any real arguments here for why this shouldn't be a unique feature the sbh... Tyt had a good point but I've shared my thoughts on that already and I don't see why it needs to be a barrier.

[vandal33]

No. It does make people more passive.SBH are not the best unit, but they're pretty good in the right hands. Giving them self healing is just too much.

[Syntharn]

   

1 hour ago, Mystic~ said:

You're started supporting my idea now with a really poor counter argument that works against you.

I like how you get upset at us for not leaving any feedback and you then quote me and basically say "you are wrong, i am right", wp sir.
Here's what im saying in case i didn't rant clearly enough.

Sbh is hot garbage when it comes to doing anything that isn't infiltration, they are weak and cowardly because of the invisibility trait, its balanced that way because invisibility is a very powerful trait (and frankly 400 is a very affordable price.)
Im saying they are GOOD at infiltrating, its what the class is balanced towards.

The arguments i perceive from you are:

1. Its called Lazarus, so it should have healing.
Where is that reference in C&C lore? if its a reference to the bible because of how Kane might be Cain, then let me remind everyone that BOTH C&C DAWN AND RA2 HAS DINOSAURS. Yeah... think about that one for a while, that rabbit hole goes deep.

2. Going back to refill, finding a player with a rep tool is a pain in the ass.
Its a pain the in ass for all classes to heal if they are alone, go find your sbh buddy.

3. Infiltrating bases should be more forgiving, especially with high population.
On very small maps, with alot of players, yes i agree sneaking or fighting your way in can be next to impossible at certain chokepoints.
Should it be made easier? Not with a buff that only helps 1 type of unit and carries over to all the situations where it isn't hard to sneak in.

Some even like it that way judging by how often small maps gets voted with high population, i don't like the spam but on some maps it becomes meta after reaching a certain number of players.
Having an easily defended base is nice though, means that less time and players can be devoted to defense.
Less scanning for sbhs needed, an extremely boring job in Renegade X. You gotta take all this from a hottys perspective to.

It all depends on map and population, which is why i think buffing sbhs overall with regeneration like that would be:
1. An ineffective fix to crowded maps where they cant get past defenses, player waves and spam anyway.
2. Unnecessary cuddling of the sbh class overall.
3. Promoting the idea of sbhs playing solo and WAITING for health instead of teaming up with other sbhs or joining up with friendly forces.
4. Promoting the idea of sbhs being able to tank hits over time rather than NOT BEING DETECTED AND PLAYING CAREFULLY.

I think you want the sbh class to be something it isn't, not fully realising that its a highly specialized unit with a delicate balance, nor the full scope of implications that will follow from having self generating sbhs, wether they be useless crate campers or crawling around in enemy base.
 

 

[Syntharn]

I mean, if you would have been all like "Can sbh get 5-10 extra in armor because they are so weak?"
this would have been a completely different discussion, might even have gone slightly above 50% in a poll.

[Mystic~]

Dude, I asked for proper feedback, I read your first long massive post and you couldn't even think of even a single credible point as to why this could not be an actionable item for a future patch and now I suppose you're expecting me to read your second giant post? If you'd said something positive I'd have probably quoted or mentioned it but instead you waffled on about many things, some totally irrelevant, you have no good points to make here. I wanted feedback, but I don't want people to deliberately waste my time talking none sense. Unless you have a good point, I'd rather you stop now and let any others that want to have a say on the topic join in.

Yeah, I read it. It still doesn't seem to include anything intelligent.

Why would I ask for 10% extra armour for an SBH when the whole point was I was requesting auto-healing over time for the SBH. Seriously, you can drop out the conversation now as I'm not going to argue with a moron and you can guess or dream about all the polls you like.

[Handepsilon]

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE Nope Nope NopeNopeNopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopecan you hear me? still saying nope. nopenopenopenope.....................

[ex_member]

Short answer: No!

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !

[Mystic~]

I'm going to point out now that this idea was also supported by Roweboat at the time, so I can't understand why you couldn't be bothered to support or justify this after I went to the effort to start the thread discussion? Maybe I took your "idea axed" comment the wrong way, were you trolling or were you suggest this is just fuitile? This concept was originally a suggestion I made of the possible problem of SBH with Rep-tools camping tech buildings on maps like Outposts, where GDI really struggle.

Handepsilon and Ex Member - pair of wise arses, there's already a "no" option in the poll, please either add something new and useful to the discussion or don't post.

Yosh - I'm disappointed that you barely have anything to contribute to any of my posts on here and yet you're seen as one of the most influential none devs. You want fucking silenced SMGs for SBH? Because why fucking not, that was what you spoke about at the time. It totally changed their dynamic turning them or at least tempting them into becoming silent assassin characters, no idea why this was needed or why this is any more valid than my suggestion of self-healing. Surely SBH must spend an awful lot more time now wasted dicking about looking for enemy players who are typing using team chat to kill, a pretty dirty tactic I have to say given how pub team chat is also vital for good team play.

The SBH has special armour, its unique, unique name, stealth tech and I don't see why something like this can't be seen or understood as a type of 'second skin'... maybe it could only heal health to recover fall damage as Tytonium mentioned, I don't remember if fall damage causes armour damage at this point.

And since so many people have got all up in arms over an existing feature (read below), then why do we have such things built into the veteran upgrade system anyway if apparently so many don't want it? If game features were decided purely by the mass votes this game would have declined a long time ago as public opinion is not the same as intelligent-adds something really good to the game opinion. 

https://wiki.renegade-x.com/wiki/Veterancy : "A slow health/armor self-regeneration, 1 point per second, will be applied to the player when they reach Elite rank, and it will upgrade to 3 points per second when they reach Heroic rank."
 

By the logic of some people here "It encourages more passive play", any SBH at Elite level are now hugely prone to passive idle camping and time wasting due to this addition from last year.

I'm merely saying this ability should happen earlier at Recruit (or maybe Veteran) a merit of it having special armour type, it brings an existing game mechanic earlier into the game. I didn't propose this just because it has a religious mythical name, but it certainly fits well with the game 'lore' and Nods technological aims and cult like fanaticism. It's a bit like saying mutant characters should be able to heal when in Tiberium and they should be the only characters allowed to do it i.e. ghost stalker, cyborg-commando etc but Ren doesn't have many Tib Sun characters. Why should an LCG have unlimited ammo where as every other character has to return back to base and refill - the same argument you have, which is akin to saying that every character and unit must be exactly the same same as else it breaks balance. Balance is a combination of A-symmetry as well as symmetry.

If you want to read about Lazarus, here's the wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_of_Bethany


The most pissy-like sceanario I can think of presently with this earlier character ability is that an SBH could potentially repeatedly wait in the same spot killing the same people that kept returning to it, and I'm mainly thinking a sniper bunker on Field but there must be other places on other maps also like Islands water or Tomb Silo. But that said, if an enemy player is going to repeatedly go back to the same spot doing the same thing, then  maybe it deserves this for lack of originality. It doesn't take too long before a tank or MRL start force firing onto areas where SBH might be suspected of hiding.

An SBH still has average health and weak armour, this fits because it's a fast athletic character that can become invisible, it uses the element or surprise, it doesn't need any better armor stats and this would totally imbalance any existing fire fight exchanges between players, where as healing is just going to mean it can last longer before someone takes it down.

If my ideas and suggestions are going to get shut down by really weak arguments and clique-like support from particular forum members or sheep-players that can't be bothered to explain their reasoning or rationale then I'm going to suggest there's a more fundamental problem with the Ren-X community. Maybe this would be a good time to hear why Rype L felt the need to stop contributing to building and developing the game further. Massive frustration perhaps?

I don't have asset game development skills, but I've played many games over my life and one of the good thing I know can do is come up with positive suggestions that aren't so ridiculous that they break the game or don't feel right for the universe or type of game. I think the most cool but acknowledged unreasonable suggestion was probably giving the LCG two of the same guns at a Heroic level turning it into a walking tank, although I was drinking gin at the time and it was mostly a fun suggestion; however I'm serious about SBH healing just to how irritating it is and difficult it can be survive both getting into and behind enemy lines in challenging situations.

[Gex_str]

Gonna write another lore fact: the device that Stealth Black Hand use is a portable version of Lazarus Shield. Lazarus shield is a techology that was used on Stealth Tanks to work as a cloaking device. It doesn't grant them any regeneration properties.
For Stealth Black Hand's wiki info: https://cnc.gamepedia.com/Stealth_soldier_(Black_Hand)
For Stealth Tank's wiki info: https://cnc.gamepedia.com/Stealth_tank_(Tiberian_Dawn) (note: due to Renegade's variant being basically nonexistent on wiki, I have put a link to TD one, it gives good info anyway)

[Mystic~]

But what has Lazarus got to do with invisibility? It's really meant to be associated with healing and resurrection. Why isn't it called the Hades shield instead, after the Greek myth on cap of invisibility. I once used to own a cool play station game called Auto Destruct, and Lazarus the main villain, was impossible to kill and would seemingly always resurrect or find a way out of the situation. In any case, the veteran system grants healing abilities anyway and the name of the suit of the armour still fits this if it were to be introduced into the armour, even if it was intended to originally denote cloaking technology.

[Fffreak9999]

Please keep this civil, or you may find this discussion locked down and further debate halted.

[ex_member]

@Mystic~ 
from my point of view is like somebody would ask to make a mammoth tank invisible, because it is big and slow and cannot properly ambush other units !
SBH is already strong enough and if Nod would use them properly, GDI would have a very hard time !

A squad of SBH can do a lot in this game and is already very powerful !

No need to make it even more powerful only bcs players are using these units less effectively than they could !

[yosh56]

Fun fact.... the sbh's stealth generator is actually named Ezekiel's Cape

 

https://cnc.fandom.com/wiki/Ezekiel's_Cape

[roweboat]

53 minutes ago, yosh56 said:

Fun fact.... the sbh's stealth generator is actually named Ezekiel's Cape

 

https://cnc.fandom.com/wiki/Ezekiel's_Cape

You could rename it from Lazarus to Ezekiel's Cape's armor and you'd still have someone causing a fuss. 🤣

 

"ITS CALLED CAPE ARMOR, WHY CANT BE IMMUNE TO FALL DAMAGE!?"

Edited January 20, 2020 by roweboat

[Mystic~]

I might have said that link was a troll to a site you have editing permissions, but Google seems to already see it.

Has everybody realised by now that by Elite the sbh can heal itself like I've explained anyway? Yes, I was asking it to be introduced as standard and yes it's rather cool Lazarus name was factored into reasons why, but not exclusively...

 

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from my point of view is like somebody would ask to make a mammoth tank invisible, because it is big and slow and cannot properly ambush other units !

I don't follow your logic here, I'm not asking for something sensational like that comparison, in fact I've already had to debate over the chorus of several weak arguments against why this can't be a small unique enhancement to the armour for the sbh. Anyway, the mammoth tank can self-heal... probably because it is so big and slow and gets shot by everything, but it's not really meant to ambush like that? 

Maybe GDI are so aware of sbh now that they frequently just bombard everywhere with missiles, shells and scanning infantry weapon's and likewise get shot so much, it's not such a problem on certain larger maps - but as a defensive tactic it does feel and seems quite cheap, especially on larger player servers - I did mention the idea of a periodic use of stealth sweep radar-like ability, but again the only comments I think I heard at the time were against any changes even tho that is what the mobile array was for, so we don't get lots of players randomly shooting around their own base unless really spooked. .

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No need to make it even more powerful only bcs players are using these units less effectively than they could !

'Less effectively' - as in, you hope that they manage to get into an enemy base cleanly - you can still do it on Walls if you're lucky, Islands is a hard one now, Complex is relatively easy. Being able to slowly re-heal was meant to be an aid to recovering from infiltration damage, once spotted, unless they are good at evade they almost always go down easily. Sure you can hope someone is willing to heal you with a rep tool, might give away position though and it effectively makes it a 600 credit character at this point, not 400.

I think several people made some good contributing points both for and against including recommendations (like BlackHand and Tytonium) but I get frustrated when I see so many naysayers with either silly arguments or people who won't explain their reasoning. The idea it will encourage even more dossers I think isn't valid and yet so many people just copy and pasted it as such. They are still invisible, they can still camp, sit be idle, they can steal heal at elite level so how is thsi such a massive over-power balance exactly? Roweboat, you may receive some sort of 'useless' award for firstly stating you liked the idea in another thread and not mentioning it here, and you're entitled to change your mind of course, but it looks like you're flip flopping on points.

I have no problem with an idea being thought and fleshed out, checks and balances made so something could pass... like what it heals or repairs, how quickly it heals or repairs, how much it can heal.

It would be nice if an sbh damaged into the red could slowly repair enough under cover to be able to get its stealth shield back and then escape to safety; there must be lots of small scenario's like this it would cover. And again, the main argument 'it's OP', without anybody really stating why, and that it would just doss more - which I disagree as such people (usually new players to the game by the way) will continue to do this regardless of a change like this. 

Maybe all purchased characters should be able to self-heal and recover at least up to 25% health/armor after having taken damage and gone into a none combat situation, but I felt this was a neat thing to add to sbh given it's weak armor, it's infiltration and evasion role and of course it's mystical Lazarus name. 

[NodSaibot]

Remove bonus damage from mobius on sbh.

[Handepsilon]

It's...  common sense.  That's my reason. I'll list the more detailed reasons then

1. SBH is a stealth assassination unit which inherently screams 'Glass Cannon'.  Self regen on glass cannon where that isn't common is just plain weird. It would be more plausible to give them to LCG, given their (previous?) status as man-tank

2. It costs around 400 credits

3. It has laser rifle,  a weapon with INFINITE ammo and damages EVERYTHING NEAR-EQUALLY. Self regen is just more reason not to refill, on top of already killing stuff and looting their packs

4. it already like...  rewards you for being stealthed. I'd probably think about it if you cannot stealth AND regen at the same time. (X)  button comes in mind

PS : My last post was kinda half a joke. I kinda edited a bit to complete it.

[ex_member]

self-healing caused by veterancy affects all units that have reached a certain veterancy level, but you need to get there first.

You are asking to give a stealth unit self healing from the start of the game.

This for sure can have a decent impact on the game.

I think SBH is powerful enough as it is.

[vandal33]

16 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

Anyway, the mammoth tank can self-heal... probably because it is so big and slow and gets shot by everything, but it's not really meant to ambush like that? 

And the Stealth Soldier is not big and slow and they don't get shot by everything.

16 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

Maybe GDI are so aware of sbh now that they frequently just bombard everywhere with missiles, shells and scanning infantry weapon's and likewise get shot so much, it's not such a problem on certain larger maps - but as a defensive tactic it does feel and seems quite cheap, especially on larger player servers - I did mention the idea of a periodic use of stealth sweep radar-like ability, but again the only comments I think I heard at the time were against any changes even tho that is what the mobile array was for, so we don't get lots of players randomly shooting around their own base unless really spooked. .

Shooting randomly everywhere is what people do to catch a stealth guy, what's wrong with that?

16 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

Sure you can hope someone is willing to heal you with a rep tool, might give away position though and it effectively makes it a 600 credit character at this point, not 400.

And what's wrong with this? If you want to regain your health, you need a teammate with you that invested an extra 200 credits and reveal your position for a while doesn't sound like a big deal compared to getting free health by doing nothing other than being a lone ranger sitting cowardly.

16 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

I think several people made some good contributing points both for and against including recommendations (like BlackHand and Tytonium) but I get frustrated when I see so many naysayers with either silly arguments or people who won't explain their reasoning. The idea it will encourage even more dossers I think isn't valid and yet so many people just copy and pasted it as such. They are still invisible, they can still camp, sit be idle, they can steal heal at elite level so how is thsi such a massive over-power balance exactly? Roweboat, you may receive some sort of 'useless' award for firstly stating you liked the idea in another thread and not mentioning it here, and you're entitled to change your mind of course, but it looks like you're flip flopping on points.

Someone posted it will encourage more passive play and SBH players prone to become useless, which is a valid point and you replied it's wasting time and not productive. That's the silly argument. Also, No need to target someone specifically.

16 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

It would be nice if an sbh damaged into the red could slowly repair enough under cover to be able to get its stealth shield back and then escape to safety; there must be lots of small scenario's like this it would cover. And again, the main argument 'it's OP', without anybody really stating why, and that it would just doss more - which I disagree as such people (usually new players to the game by the way) will continue to do this regardless of a change like this. 

SBH damaged to red doesn't need auto healing. They still have their laser rifles (good against everything), infinite ammo and have good speed. You either find someone kind enough to heal you, run with your tails in between your legs back to base to refill or fight till death like everyone else. No special cuddling for SBH. Not that I hate them, I love SBHs but self-healing is too much.

[Mystic~]

Quote

self-healing caused by veterancy affects all units that have reached a certain veterancy level, but you need to get there first.

You are asking to give a stealth unit self healing from the start of the game.

Well I think you may be the first person intelligent enough to acknowledge this for a start, but I've basically said the same thing in almost every single post of mine from the start; it wasn't intended to be a global change when I brought this up, but from this I can discern that most people do in fact not genuinely care if Stealth Black Hands can heal or not, but do still insist on moaning about precisely this claiming it is over-powered for this class type, even if it's going to happen 40-60 minutes later into the game anyway when they hit Elite.

When everybody else can also do this regardless of class, it's suddenly not over powered for an SBH class anymore to have this combination of character attributes after all, baring in mind it's still mainly used for infiltration, it's still going to be able to kill someone and heal or attempt to kill someone causing damage and heal itself. I understand everybody else would also have this ability and method to heal should they not actually die during a fight, but it doesn't change or affect the combination of stealth and passive self-healing damage at all.

Yes, I was pushing to give this to the SBH either at the start of the game or maybe from the first "veteran" level so it happens sooner and as far as I can tell it really does not make that much of a massive difference to the opposition team, but testing in practice is what actually matters to see how it would influence things or change behaviours. So alas I have to try and work out why there has been so much objection from so many. What is so disastrously outrageous about letting an SBH heal early on? The subversive tactics are often solo efforts, take for example if you manage to get into the battlefield on Field from being base locked, how beneficial would it be to be able to retreat to the water and heal knowing you're not going to find an engineer, and you're not going to be able to get back to base to refill, you might have a team mate with a rep tool if you're lucky. 

A minor to moderate bonus for a unit that has Lazarus (healing/resurrection) in it's armour type name and because it is really weak in health/armour already and tends to get hunted down more than most other types of character because of their potential threat and that they make soft easy targets, but also because they frequently sustain damage attempting to reach behind enemy lines due to their subversive/infiltration nature I thought was a nice thing to give it anyway without having to depend on someone else having to spend an additional 200 credits.

I'm not sure whether I really agree with the glass cannon analogy, it's strength is invisibility, but it's attack is weak, sure in numbers they do pose a significant threat but it's still possible to shut down these attacks down quite easily if detected whether it be nukes or internal C4. I'd probably refer to the Red Alert A-bomb trucks as a glass cannon, but I don't get how an SBH fits this description over than it's mirror ball appearance. Just because they operate like a commando doesn't meant they're meant to be one-time use suicide units.

If price point, weapon/armour stats needed to be tweaked, there was nothing stopping any of this being thought about adjusted.

Was there a need for this healing add-on in the first place? Does it address a problem? Yes, I think there is and it can be justified based on what they spend their time doing, usually risky things. I've seen a number of minor arguments or points for against it, but was expecting to see some sort of significant scenario or situation where it's simply too much, but I haven't' found one yet.

__

Anyway, the greater take away from this discussion is perhaps, should all units have basic level healing ability from the start to recover health lost during a fight? Most modern games seem to do this now. How much more would a player be able to accomplish if players didn't need to keep running back to refill or find an advanced engineer, which could then concentrate on primarily healing tanks. The armour and health pickups seem very much down to chance if you get what you need (out of health, armour or ammo) and aren't even enough to allow a player to sustain a fight even if they manage to survive and find cover or time to 'recover'. It basically leaves you to either die, purchase another character/re-purchase the same one or hope an engineer can get to you or you can retreat under fire without being killed.

[Mystic~]

"And the Stealth Soldier is not big and slow and they don't get shot by everything." - you completely missed the point I was making about this being a completely dud comparison to make.

I'm not getting that you understand testing, refining and developing a game to improve its experience. I'm seeing loaded and biased terms such as 'cowardly' or pre-judging based on the idea that a player will be 'passive' as it sits invisible and does nothing all game, which is down to how an individual player uses one and I'm sure there are all sorts of time wasting activities a player can do on either team with or without becoming invisible.

"Shooting randomly everywhere is what people do to catch a stealth guy, what's wrong with that?" - it feels acceptable up to a point, maybe you get a gut feeling or a particular hunch, but when everybody suddenly starts shooting everywhere all of the time it becomes near impossible to get through and it breaks the stealth infiltration ability for Nod and on top of this it just looks ridiculous to be shooting your own base all the time - maybe friendly-damage should be enabled or tank ammo limited to get this point across. It's a bit like giving Nod spades and just saying dig trenches, their tanks can't get over them. 

"SBH damaged to red doesn't need auto healing." - Well clearly there are some situations where there's an argument for them needing this as there are no other options, I could guess that the probability is something like 90% of all SBH that get into the red won't survive to the point that they're able to be healed by another team member; without stealth they are sitting ducks.

"you replied it's wasting time and not productive. " - No I didn't, I said that this ability would actually make them more likely to risk making more attacks, being more useful and be less passive out of fear of dying too easily, but we won't know unless this is tested. I did say people were mostly (and still are) making some really poor/weak arguments against and as far as debates go there's not yet been a strong reason against it other than to interpret it as "meeeehhh, it's a bit too much for an sbh this early on" or whatever other long and meaningless rambling Sytharn gave, despite it's benefits or advantages and I was prepared for someone to actually pick out a serious reason that breaks the game or character or something, but I've not seen one yet and the fact that they can heal like this later into the game anyway seems to already prove this point that there isn't one.

Anyway, basically Yosh and Handepsilon are the main influential people that have commented and they're not interested in it, so yes the idea probably is dead at this point.

 

[ex_member]

Self-healing and veterancy in general should be a separate topic as it has a high impact on the game, but that does not change what I said about SBH self-healing from the start.

I hope you are not that frustrated and outrageous in real life and to real people when you try to run a discussion!

PS: if everyone around you is stupid, you are either a genius or arrogant.

[Mystic~]

I didn't say everyone was stupid, I mentioned names of people that gave what I thought was good feedback, even if it isn't exactly what I wanted to hear as well as alluding to several people who gave utterly tosh answers or arguments and one direct call out with Sythan's rant. I've accepted peoples answers saying "it's too powerful" as an answer, but it's not a good break down if they can't articulate why.

Your first answer to this thread ex_member was:

Short answer: No!

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !

You then gave a comparison of Stealth Mammoth tanks, it's hard to take you seriously after that, so perhaps you are the one being so ridiculous.

[roweboat]

I think a much more productive conversation should involve questioning WHY

 

Why does a STEALTH unit, a LITERAL INVISIBLE UNIT, not have the ability to STEALTH KILL other units from behind?

 

Give SBH a bowie knife, he wants one so badly.

[MajesticSausage]

Just now, roweboat said:

I think a much more productive conversation should involve questioning WHY

 

Why does a STEALTH unit, a LITERAL INVISIBLE UNIT, not have the ability to STEALTH KILL other units from behind?

 

Give SBH a bowie knife, he wants one so badly.

Only if the assassination can be completed with a quick time event. I want to dust my dance mat off.

[Mystic~]

Because firing whilst cloaked is too powerful, or, maybe the batteries can't power both. A stealth knife might be cooler than the silenced uzi pistol, for anyone standing at an MCT during infiltration or campy enough to stand in the same spot for too long.

[Reivax]

8 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

A stealth knife might be cooler than the silenced uzi pistol

knife gameplay ❤️  imagine sword fights - lightsaber fights
Mendoza: Luuuuuke! I am your father!
Havoc: wtf dude? stop drugs pls

btw i'll still be against this idea to give HP regen to recruit SBHs
they already have enough HP
when i play stank, i use SBH only to stay alive if my stank is destroyed. 
but there is one fact in Renegade X: SBH are the most overrated unit. a few hours ago, i was Nod on Under. GDI was stucked in his base - covered by AGT. tunnels, pipe and field was to Nod control. but Nod had 5 SBH. can anyone explain me how tf 5 SBH are useful when you have nothing to do? tank, healer, sniper, doza, everything is useful - but not SBHs
so please, do not buff SBH. more players will play them and stand AFK for the entire game.
and skilled SBHs (yea, a few SBH players are "pro" cuz they know when, where and why use SBHs) will use this buff (overbuff at my opinion, SBHs are already too strong against snipers/healers) against ppl to increase the frustration to be killed by some op stealth unit
take a look on that (from 0:39 to 1:02)

i still dream about Stealth Mendoza with ramjet as secondary weapon and reloadable airstrikes with smoke grenade as special ability
oh and.. add "tiberium" damages to his Tib Rifle - like chem nades can do -    

[Fffreak9999]

In my opinion (one that is not shared widely), I would just remove the SBH from the purchase list, and only allow it as a crate character for spies regardless of faction.

Then replace the missing character class with another class such as a stronger anti-infantry option, or maybe a gunner alternative for Nod.

[Reivax]

hmm.. Nod "gunner" is LCG, SBH is the counterpart of Patch
Patch is a cheaper mobius, who allows GDI to attack Nod infantry (known to be more strong than GDI infantry) SBH is a typical Nod boi - Nod tactics inculdes the speed, the stealth, to be sneaky and to take hard risks - while GDI boiz will sit in 1200hp mammoths with tons of repairs -
these Nod tactics are how Nod is supposed to act (in a kind of roleplay, it's the tactics explained in C&C3 hehe)
SBH is still useful to destroy MRLS, and gives an advantage on the field to Nod - because GDI tanks are stronger, Nod can't deal with them without use tactics like C4 MRLS, harass hotwires, etc..  

[Fffreak9999]

https://cnc.fandom.com/wiki/Heavy_weapons_soldier_(Black_Hand)

This is more my line of thinking, using their rocket launcher option.