MRLs Turret Lock - Thoughts and Discussion

[Xeon Wraith]

So its been a few weeks since this feature has been implemented so I thought I'd start up a thread to discuss it. 

For those unaware, the MRLS is capable of locking their turret in a fixed front-facing position by pressing Space. Locking the turret in-place allows players to curve the missiles of the MRLS to some extent. The most exploitative application of this is to curve the missiles around cover, allowing MRLs to kill off vehicles and repairs from safety. A demonstration of this can be seen in Danvik's recent PUG video on Field (27-10). The MRLS "missile loop" can be done on most maps with a suitably short wall. High walls such as the ones on Under are too high for the loop to do practical damage.

The use of the MRLS missile loops on Field is pretty controversial among (at least) PUG players, as Nod tanks have little means to retaliate. However, this is probably the most unfair use of the missile loop - at least from my testing. Other notable uses of the missile loop are on maps like: Islands, Tomb, Canyon and XMountain - all of which are considerably more open than Field's small vehicle choke point and less of a issue.

 

My opinion:

MRLS looping should be removed on Nod's side of Field (Probably by just increasing the wall height).

On the whole, I'm personally quite a fan of the new addition. From a competitive standpoint, MRLS missile loops provides a soft-counter to the extremely potent Flame Tank lockdown Nod gets on some maps. MRLS themselves are still quite brittle and are terrible against any aggressive push by Nod tanks, so GDI can't rely the MRLS to push for field control. This allows for some more interesting tank fights over field control and gives GDI a bit more diversity to their typical Medium Tank heavy rollouts. I would imagine this also gives some pretty interesting map design options. Canyon is pretty decent example of one - though unintentionally. On that map GDI is able to missile loop around the front of their base to combat the typical Flame Tank lockdown but can't use it to fire into Nod's base.

Balance aside, the MRLS is a fairly clunky vehicle to use and just having a bit more control of the MRLS turret just kinda feels nice. 

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 11, 2018 by Xeon Wraith

[TK0104]

I don't really like it in the first place. I think a lot of people who played Renegade didn't like it either. Saw some custom maps with custom MRLS that could rotate.

 

And I think that's the reason why Renegade X didn't had it either because you can hit so many spots that makes the MRLS OP for high spots like the plateau on Walls or the sniper perches on Field (X)

[Redarmy]

If the MRLS keep the cheese for some ungodly reason, have flak armor take less splash damage or something so at least LCGs and Raves can try to survive around that.

[BlazingYoshi]

My biggest fear will be the fact you are going to have to design/change maps around it for keeping it just like how maps are designed with avoiding arty cheese (even i think complex can use a change for that arty spot its just too save shelling ref/wf from there) right now i just don't think it be healthy in the long run but i also don't know how to compensate the MRLS for losing it.
or just don't compensate at all?

[NodSaibot]

I thought it would add some interesting gameplay, and help prevent base lockdowns, which is why I added it. If it's too strong, we could just nerf the rockets when it's in that mode, or just remove it entirely as well. That being said, I would prefer to keep the turret modes and just nerf the rockets when it's in that mode.

[yosh56]

I'd prefer to remove it entirely.... Game was never designed around it, just like 64 players. That I just bite my tongue on though. 

[NodSaibot]

2 minutes ago, yosh56 said:

I'd prefer to remove it entirely.... Game was never designed around it, just like 64 players. That I just bite my tongue on though. 

If we keep 64 players, we keep the turret mode

[Redarmy]

Remove both. 50 player limit.

[boxes]

Not a fan of it, but I appreciate the willingness in trying new things

[iridesence]

On 11/11/2018 at 5:54 PM, yosh56 said:

I'd prefer to remove it entirely.... Game was never designed around it, just like 64 players. That I just bite my tongue on though. 

the current maps are not designed around it.  if we had some larger maps that had indirect fire in mine then maybe, but atm we dont, so i am not much of a fan of the way its currently implemented.  (and this is coming from someone whos trying to experiment with indirect fire stuff)

[TK0104]

Confirmed, it'll be removed next patch

[Madkill40]

Turret lock makes the MRLS more practical, before the turret lock was brought back I realised why using an MRLS felt so odd but being able to lock and unlock the MRLS battery is best of both- custom maps on OldRen which had an MRLS with a rotating battery were a novelty, it was nice because the battery should be allowed to rotate - but locking the battery allows the MRLS a similar out-of-sight fire diversity as the Arty

The arty fire-arch can hit vehicles in cover or are otherwise out of reach of any other vehicle, thanks to the MRLS battery being locked GDI actually get this advantage as well - but 6+ rockets are going to magnify the impact compared to an singular (continuous) bombardment from one Arty.

If its possible to limit the curve of the rockets so the rockets can't make an U-turn (unless locked on) then that'd be a fair nerf, but the MRLS battery lock doesn't give too great an advantage to GDI

Flanking with rockets by looking right and firing left with an locked battery makes the MRLS an actual threat again, rather than "oh look an MRL- Nevermind, its dead now"

Reducing MRLS splash might be a better idea, wasn't the splash increased just to buff the lack of versatility of the MRLS anyway? Not massively reduced, we don't want rockets that do FA-splash like that one time with Gunner's rocket launcher

[Madkill40]

Honestly I think its fair
Arty archs vertically
Mrls archs horizontally 

 

Just make lock-on work only against aircraft 

[Syntharn]

Not a big fan of locked vehicle combat with both sides just spamming and repairing.
Cruise missiles, airstrikes and EMPs can break up such situations as it is, but i dont mind the MLRS being more able to do so.
A light tank can absolutely dominate up to 3 unsupported MLRS at the same time, by counterpredicting their firing arches. most player trust the homing rockets to hit but driving towards them in a light tank is pretty much a guaranteed dogde, and those that aim manually usually miss at least 50% of their rockets in such a situation.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Syntharn
cannot praise light tanks enough, blessed by Kane.

[Xtractor]

Didn't test in the following situation but could be usefull when close encounter with an infantry trying to tc4 the MRL 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Xtractor

[yosh56]

I like it now. Has it's annoying spots, but so do Arts. It really is just nice having more functionality on the MRLS.....PLUS I LIKE the beep when I press Space.

[NodSaibot]

Sooooooooo we are keeping it?

[TK0104]

1 hour ago, Sarah! said:

Sooooooooo we are keeping it?

[NodSaibot]

Just now, TK0104 said:

Definite yes then

[Syntharn]

I was somewhat concerned that locking and curving your rockets would open up some new B2B tactic after thinking about it a bit more, but naah.
Shooting backwards in order to curve your rockets upwards limits their range significantly, and lining it up perfectly to say... kill Nod infantry on their wall on Walls is not as easy at it sounds without getting rekt in the process.

Again, i dont really care wether it stays or goes but so far i dont see any problems with it.
Even if it were to go back to the non-locked turret position only, curving the rockets will still be possible, just more awkward.
Horologue and Hourglass i think are the only maps where this may be considered a distinct advantage, but removing the lock ability won't really change that.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Syntharn
i have alot of free time at work today

[yosh56]

I mean... I like it. 

 

The spots on Field in front of Nod's entrance, and the spot on Canyon in front of GDIs entrance are really one of the only problems. 

[Xeon Wraith]

35 minutes ago, yosh56 said:

The spots on Field in front of Nod's entrance, and the spot on Canyon in front of GDIs entrance are really one of the only problems. 

Uhh...That's not because of me right? Those are the two spots I do remember actively using while you were ingame. 

Incidentally, there's more spots that I think are a fair amount worse than the Canyon one. The Canyon loop spot just only provides a soft counter to the flamer lockdown Nod can get. You can hide around the corner of the tiberium rock to ignore the MRLS missiles and still be close enough to pressure tanks at the front of GDI's base.

[Trap]

There is literally no reason for this function.

In my personal opinion it's the most abused new feature added recently to RenX. On every map there are spots where MRLS can barrage cruise missile nod units without behing able to see them at all.

MRLS require 0,00% skill - it has an auto-aimbit function - which can be dodged, but makes the MRLS the easiest vehicle to handle. using artilleries on the other hand requires experience and knowledge on long range fights.

Arty shells have a huge drop, which makes it possible to arc-kill GDI behind cover, but even then the arty can actually SEE where the enemy is. MRLS on the other side are blind-firing.

#remove the abused function

[I am an Owl]

Abusive function that I think should be removed or reworked.

[vlatkozelka]

MRLS were designed to work with a locked turret. Curving missiles is one of the main advantages of that tank ...

[boxes]

3 hours ago, vlatkozelka said:

MRLS were designed to work with a locked turret

Not in RenX. The maps were not designed in mind with MRLS being able to shoot over massive obstacles. For example it's the same exact reason why Nod isn't able to shell the ref anymore from the middle of the field on Lakeside. GDI can't properly respond to it since it's so far away in the backlines, just like how Nod can't respond to MRLS shooting over mountains behind a wall of tanks. Lakeside wasn't designed around artillerys having an arc to their projectiles. But for the MRLS, it would require literally every single map to be revised in some way or form. It is simply much more efficient re-evaluating the lock mechanic.

[Trap]

how is Nod supposed to counter this bs?

duo MRLS insta arty / LT and almost insta flamers as well. GDI pressed hard on Tib side.... MRLS are 100% blindfiring

 

[Xeon Wraith]

49 minutes ago, Neeez said:

how is Nod supposed to counter this bs?

duo MRLS insta arty / LT and almost insta flamers as well. GDI pressed hard on Tib side.... MRLS are 100% blindfiring

So I decided to test the damage profile of this.

Setup has 2 MRLS lined up in the same way as the PUG and 6 Buggies on the other side. The MRLS fires at the Buggies, using the minimap to aim, and the damage taken by the Buggies should give a rough idea of the damage profile from the missiles. Screenshots below.

Spoiler

The average damage profile (of three sets) of the:

Inner MRLS (closest to WF), starting from the left buggy is: 0 / 0/ 3/ 87.6/ 164.0/ 191.3

Outer MRLS (closest to PP), starting from the left buggy is: 0 / 0/ 1/ 76.3/ 157.6/ 196.6

In reality, these numbers would be considerably lower as you wouldn't be able to always use the minimap to aim and most players are probably smart enough to fall back as they get hit. Flip-side of this is that it'll hurt more with vetenacy increases. Make of what you will with the data.

Regardless, Nod actually doesn't have to take damage at all from the MRLS. Sticking to the outer wall (where the left Buggy is) completely negates the splash damage you take. Even if you have a large tank force and can't fit everyone away from the splash, positioning field repairs towards the outer wall would already greatly increase staying power. 

I get that old habits die hard, but this isn't a even particularly difficult or complex change for players to make to counter the problem.

 

TL;DR: Don't stand where the missiles land.

[Trap]

49 minutes ago, Xeon Wraith said:

Regardless, Nod actually doesn't have to take damage at all from the MRLS. Sticking to the outer wall (where the left Buggy is) completely negates the splash damage you take. Even if you have a large tank force and can't fit everyone away from the splash, positioning field repairs towards the outer wall would already greatly increase staying power. 

In theory - yes. In reality we know that this is not working with 5-6 people (3 tanks) at that spot. Flamer needs to be in range. Arty / LT need to move around.

[NodSaibot]

9 hours ago, Neeez said:

In theory - yes. In reality we know that this is not working with 5-6 people (3 tanks) at that spot. Flamer needs to be in range. Arty / LT need to move around.

Adapt, improvise, overcome.

[Fffreak9999]

12 hours ago, Neeez said:

how is Nod supposed to counter this bs?

Cruise Missile

[LavaDr4gon]

Just give it time

It happens every time a change is made in the game.
1st Stage:  No once cares to use a new feature
2nd Stage:  Some learn and master it
3rd Stage:  More people start using the new feature making it op or broken
4th Stage:  People learn to counter it and start calling it worthless

Look at what happened to cruise missiles when people learned that they can shoot it down or move.
 

[Madkill40]

Let EMPs disable the weapon of an Arty/MRLS instead of the vehicle's ability to move. (Reduces ammunition to 0 until EMP effect has worn off, vehicles reload automatically when EMP effect has worn off)

Now all players have to do is throw an EMP at Arty/MRLS to reduce their barrage for a small amount of time

If the firing-arch for MRLS was increased the rockets would fly straight into the wall instead of going around the wall/mountain... Right?

As well or alternatively.... Would it be possible to force rockets to travel forwards only if the player's reticle is pointing at a static mesh that's within an minimum range/distance? [Only when MRLS battery is locked] 

Seeing as how to curve MRLS rockets over or around a big obstacle requires a certain closeness to said obstacle - but also forces the player in the MRLS to aim at the big obstacle as well - then surely there's some scientific code to prevent this?

JUST TO POINT OUT: This wouldn't nerf MRLS shooting around obstacles entirely, but it would drastically limit the MRLS's ability to achieve bullshit hits. 

If this is even possible or half-possible (half-possible: ignore part regarding player's reticle) then that would be awesome