Mystic~

I don't think the Oberlisk should be able to shoot aircraft given it never did this in the original strategy game and Nod has the best anti-aircraft SAM sites in the games. However the AGT could strike aircraft with missiles only but not with any of the sighted guns (did they exist), but this was never as effective as the sams. I think taking down air defences as mini objectives earlier on is quite fun and rewarding to later plays. Whilst Nod has the SBH to work in teams, Havoc functions as an awful Commando unit as he doesn't carry enough C4.

I'm seeing a magic dildo flying about, but the thing in the back looks quite cool.

I think the Ob and AGT are probably the least important buildings to lose on this map, they're a nice thing to have, but they're not required for the continuation of the game so long as people are prepared to defend. I think the GDI base size is still roughly equivalent to that of their base on Walls. Eyes probably ought to have as many anti-aircraft defences as Lakeside, Walls, Whiteout etc.

I agree with the above. I think the 1990s Command and Conquer era universe still requires the use of plenty of sandbags, bunkers and trenches to get around due to the risk of snipers. The tunnels map is quite nice to play on the field with infantry for this reason, although getting outside the perimeter of your own base to begin with is the challenge, the rear infantry paths make this more achievable. On Eyes, most of the infantry only accessible areas can also be covered by tanks or air vehicles and you are very open and exposed to enemy snipers. The rear infantry access routes into both bases are too easily defended due to main base defences sensing you and usually if you are Nod you run into a solider exiting or Patch and if you are GDI you run into a solider exiting or camping SBH expecting sneakers. Even without primary base defences people should know how to defend buildings by now as this is what Walls is all about.

I'm wondering why there is such easy access at the back of the Refinery at the Nod base for tanks to shoot through at the Obelisk, Refinery and Hand of Nod, but there isn't anything comparable for Nod to be able to do to GDI, sure they can infantry sneak through the tunnel if not spotted by a shooting AGT, but leading up to this route and in the tunnel itself is rarely clear and often well defended. I'm thinking either the Nod side needs covering up and turning into am enclosed tunnel cave similar to the GDI side of the map or the GDI side needs opening up into a gorge similar to the Nod side of the map OR potentially underneath the GDI road bridge gets opened up again like the earlier version allowing Nod tanks an extra access point seeing how so much of the field is often blocked by players whom know to scan for stealth tanks now. Second moderate gripe, both the back infantry paths leading to both the NOD and GDI bases by way of the linking concrete bridge structure too easily provoke base defences, add on top of this defensive mining and a patrolling defender makes this route a really frustrating and often not viable way of infiltrating the base, getting a spy seems to be the most common but infrequent way of infiltrating. There possibly also needs to be more hiding spots on both sides to avoid a patrolling player or someone merely exiting the base this way. Third gripe, on the Nod side of the map there's an external rising rock ramp that leads to the inner Tiberium cave catwalk and bunker, GDI snipers can camp this upper area and easily see directly through into the Nod base providing hours of sniper whoring fun, but there's no equivalent for Nod to do the same to GDI as the access path is inside the Tiberium cave and there's no overlooking open rock formation. Potentially, both sides snipers could be facing off one another in here. Overall I think it's still a well made map that has lasted public scrutiny and I don't think maps necessarily need to be symmetrical mirror copies of one another, but it doesn't feel fair or balanced in terms of options at the moment for either side. @DaKuja

I expect to be able to rotate the barrels of a Mammoth Tank and pick up any vehicles in the way like Sir Killalot would from Robot Wars.

How about changing the Sunday PUG into something like a Monday or Wednesday PUG? If that makes a difference, always seemed a little odd that we would run two pugs, two days in a row consecutively.

Well I was part of an 7-8 strong Gunner rush the other day, we made it down the left side of the map but had to kill two Mendoza along the way so probably knew we were coming. Our rockets were fired from so far away and took so long to land at the target hon that it barely did anything against a tech repairing inside. We needed APCs really, but then we'd have probably been spotted anyway or a stank would have destroyed one. I don't like how far the harvesters have to travel and how easily exposed they are, even with silos it's a poor economy game and Nod can just silo camp with an sbh + rep tool and already had field superiority due to economy and higher level character numbers and tanks. I like the map now, but I think it still needs work.

I actually like the latest version of Toxicity without the free Recon bikes, it feels like a well made Tiberian Sun era map similar to Steppe and Crash Site, but I feel just like Eyes was in the beginning, Nod has a massively favourable advantage over GDI with stealth ability and with the Tick-Tanks, it seems to too easily counter any of GDIs strengths, so the map feels very frustrating to play. But it's been played so little, nobody knows what tactics work or don't work yet, and everyone just expects an instant quality game on a map they've played in original Renegade that everyone remembers like Field or Under, which are two maps I'm utterly sick of playing. It's almost like we need a server with Vanilla only maps and another with New Content maps - and then maybe people will begin to appreciate what others are creating. I think large maps require large numbers of players to be worthwhile. I'll also just add, any infantry expected to traverse a large battlefield without things like trench cover or enough stamina are just sitting duck frustrations waiting to happen because there are so many places snipers can hide and just pick off expensive and hard to replace characters the moment they wander out of their bases. Might be worth adding "map" to your post title so it's not confused with in-game toxicity due to people's behaviour.

Wait, what? Flame tanks have an alternative fire mode?!

When your car gets stuck, so you try getting out and back in again.

Kane's Angels versus Black Hand Rebel's biker gangs in the Nod v Nod games then.

Getting bike-rev'd' is the new t-bag.

I think Patch costs the same as an LCG, but the comparison most people and devs make is that he's meant to be the GDI equivalent of an SBH. LCG and Gunner both have flak armour and can engage tanks, but the LCG has quite an advantage as it's laser can also take on infantry, but they both get cut down quite easily by anybody with a better gun or use bullets. In any case, I'd prefer we just had light armour and heavy armour classes so bullets can't make Swiss cheese of Gunner or the LCG. I don't love the Patch by any means, but he has good speed and he's useful for taking down technician's behind enemy lines... I think. I seem to buy it somehow, I'm not sure what for, but it sometimes happens, maybe I slip, or maybe it's because I'm too broke and don't want to wait but still want to be able to kill something. In addition to his noob tube 'nade launcher I almost feel like he should have the vanilla rocket launcher as a second sidearm choice similar to how Sydney and Ravshaw get the Tiberium Flechette gun, which Patch used to have in original Renegade, it certainly looks in keeping with his character. He can do okay damage against infantry but he can't do much to vehicles unless he finds a really soft target and shoots it from a place he can't be hit back. I don't really think anybody expects for Patch to take out a Mendoza unless you catch one by surprise and you land the grenade first. A faster rate of fire might be nice and a rocket launcher as a second weapon are my conclusions so he's more of a jungle warrior like one of those people from Predator.

So can we have this map back in public rotation please? I know there were a few people moaning they had to download it or something but I've not seen any serious criticisms of it in terms of play. I've not seen it since then and only played it 2-3 times maybe, but one of these was in a custom map PUG. It's an interesting map and surely it has just as much potential as the map Eyes that Dakuja created.

Great video, Tiberian Sun was also my favourite RTS game, I don't play anymore but I enjoyed watching the commentaries on youtube and also the ones for Kane's Wrath that I never really played online properly. I was also a big fan of Nox from Westwood Studios and I really hope somebody else catches onto the formula they had with that game also, which all these other full 3D modern equivalents don't get as they're just too slow and point and click. All they need to do is update engines, graphics and produce a new but similar compelling story. I don't know if Petroglyph are planning to remaster Tib Sun the same way they have the original, but I'd probably prefer an original RTS title if they bring all the team back as it were. Everything I've bought in adult life has been action/adventure FPS games like Witcher and Deus Ex, no more rts - but Renegade has been the longest running game I've still played. I think without the early depth of story they put into the early RTS strats and developing the world that Renegade would feel too hollow to continue playing.

No, thank you, not with that level of control, If I'm on a team with a bad commander I want the freedom to leave the team, without their approval nor the approval of the opposing commander, and especially if it's some mid game commander vote mutiny crap going on. If someone is deliberately stacking one side I think that's a job for a moderator to oversee. I don't think a public commander should have as much power or influence as the leader of a clan on a public server nor as much say as one might have in picking his/her team during a PUG. If there was a situation where one team had 2 or more players, then I wouldn't be against something that randomly selected a random player from the larger team list to join the smaller team and give both commanders a yes/no vote to either approve or veto someone whom might not make that much difference or they wouldn't want leaving because they're a key player, let the process continue until both commanders approve a transfer of someone for the sake of making a match fairer. Maybe give a commander an ability to 'request' a player from the opposition team or 'swap' a player on their own team, but ultimately let the player choose if they want to switch sides or not. I'd also not be against giving them a power to kick AFK players without needing to call in a vote.

And this is why we would like the Nod bike as a default unit on all maps.

We ALL had opportunity to explore the map prior to the game whilst some were sorting out their technical map issues and Fffreak even made a point of saying navigate using the M key during the real game which many of us must have already been doing anyway. Once the other team lost their power plant to whomever managed to defend their nuke, things snowballed from there, but we had an earlier attack on it that still that threatened to take it down. I think many realised this is one of the most vulnerable buildings on the map. Map is so big I have no idea how everything else was destroyed. I agree that clear signs are going to be a good idea here. Even with a 64-bit client I had trouble loading straight into the Paradise map with a very good spec machine, I hadn't tested the map before the pug, but I've played it before and I expected all the pre-compiled assets Fffreak sorted out to work.

I'm glad these maps have had some play tests now, I didn't encounter any serious problems with any of them. The event seemed to go mostly smoothly, a few map loading issues and a few team switching delays, but nothing huge. I had to wait a while for the Paradise map to load and it crashed at least once I felt despite downloading it in advance from the file. I enjoyed this map the most and I look forward to seeing it in action on a public game, I think a lot of people are going to enjoy it and there will be a lot of new strategies once people become familiar with it's winding paths and tunnel networks. I liked the new rope bridges and route on Islands X, never had much chance to experience how the med centre works, but I'm not keen on playing more dimly lit maps as I prefer the few that have sunshine like Walls and Islands, as they aren't so depressing. Steppe is a very good looking Tiberian Sun era map and Forests seems like a nice small map similar to Tomb or Walls in some ways only with trees.

Some of us suggested making the standard Nod bike available by default and perhaps GDI could take the Wolverine, but I think having the Titan on every map or the Hover MRLS and Tick Tank breaks game-play on some maps to some extent. For example the Titan can't fit underneath the entrance on Walls and the Hover can access the Sea on Islands. Not every map has space for a large tech building and it's quite a lot of work for what you're asking. I also wouldn't want to sacrifice traditional tank warfare for walker units. Desolation and Crash Site have the vehicles you're after and I reason they would also fit well on the new map Steppe.

Same on Complex also. Volcano is only Nod favoured in the early stages, as soon as GDI get meds/mammys everything changes and Nod has to use SBH and tunnels to their advantage or get snowballed by heavy tank armour and tiberium field control.

I spoke about beacon spam in another thread and suggested players should only be able to plant beacons in the enemy base and not neutral territory like tunnels or outside an entrance. I also put out there the idea of mini nukes/ions that work a bit like cruise missiles, only more effective than cms for people who still want to see a super weapon used on an army in the field. I don't think beacons were designed to be used in random places on the battle field. I thought these were both sound suggestions to prevent the usual spam abuse, but as per usual, my ideas require support from the community to be heard or get anywhere. I have no issues with the credit collection rate on Islands, it's very similar on Complex also, it enables a faster pace of game and people to be fighting with good units as opposed to other maps whereby as soon as your nice character gets a head shot from a sniper and you're basically reduced to fannying around in small infantry battles or begging for credits for a long while as per something like Field where the Harvester gets destroyed frequently and easily. It would be nice for a few carefully positioned boxes to hide behind in the tunnels so there can be more of an advancing fight to take and hold them.