Mining

[lawANDorder]

Share your ideas about the current mining system and give suggestions on how to improve it.

See my original post here:

Spoiler

Original title: Defusing of foreign mines

Overmining and bad mining is a problem in many matches and can only be countered by

1. making the owner disarm their mines
2. vote for a mining ban
3. intentional overmining to remine the base.

Option 1 and 2 require to know who the owner of the disturbing mines is, this in turn requires to find those mines first. Also both options depend on communication and foreign action: the owner´s attention and action or the team´s attention and participation. Only option 3 doesn´t rely on these requirements. So at the moment it may be the more promising option to place new mines in every doorstep rather then

• search for the disturbing mines
• ask for defusing
• be dependent on action/participation.

This shows me that some game mechanic may be broken because option 3 exposes the buildings in the process of remining and turns overmining, a generally bad practice, into a viable option.

Making mines defusable to everyone in the team would change this, it would enable yourself to defuse the disturbing mines or enable the player´s participating in the chat to quickly find and defuse them - without being dependent on one players attention and action (option 1) or the participation of a lot players while being exposed  to trolling votes (option 2).

One could argue that this would expose all mines to teamhamping but in my opinion this kind of intentional teamhamping is much less the case than overmining or bad mining because of ignorance. 

Cheers!

Edited October 22, 2016 by lawANDorder
deleted summary, you need to read the thread

[vandal33]

Worth testing out although I'm concern about trollers disarming them for no reason. And maybe kill-whores would disarm well-placed mines and replace it with their own for the leisure of getting the kill.

[lawANDorder]

7 minutes ago, vandal33 said:

And maybe kill-whores would disarm well-placed mines and replace it with their own for the leisure of getting the kill.

Didn´t know snipers have mines 

[Kaiser739]

Maybe make it so overmining is not possible? I.e. once the mine limit is reached, you can't place any new mines? Or give overminers a huge warning on the middle of their screen, similar to the "Return to battlefield" warning?

[Ryz]

3 minutes ago, EKT-Kaiser said:

 Or give overminers a huge warning on the middle of their screen, similar to the "Return to battlefield" warning?

Than I appreciate this option above disallowing overmining. Why?

- overmining can be a tactic once you are locked up in the 'last' building
- overmining can be used to protect friendly beacon

[Kaiser739]

Yeah, you're probably right.

[lawANDorder]

26 minutes ago, EKT-Kaiser said:

Or give overminers a huge warning on the middle of their screen, similar to the "Return to battlefield" warning?

This could help but won´t affect the situation where you want to get rid of maybe just 3 bad mines to use them in a doorstep. Think of sandbag mines at Walls...

Overmining has two different effects (imo):

1. Mines disappear and expose building entrances, it´s an automatic effect.
2. To secure the entrances again you have to choose between the options 1-3 above, it´s an individual task.

You can counter effect 1 with a warning, but it won´t do the work needed to recover from overmining/bad mining.

Edited September 27, 2016 by lawANDorder

[Agent]

Could always just remove mines belonging to a person when they're mind-banned.

...Or remove the mine limit and make them a purchasable item instead, so that team waste becomes personal waste instead.

[lawANDorder]

3 minutes ago, Agent said:

Could always just remove mines belonging to a person when they're mind-banned.

Will take at least the voting time and requires votes. Also, I don´t want to call a mining ban just to disarm someone´s mines in a destroyed building. The banhammer seems not to be the reasonable tool for all cases where you just want to defuse some mines. I understand it as a tool to prevent overmining, not to recover from it.

3 minutes ago, Agent said:

...Or remove the mine limit and make them a purchasable item instead, so that team waste becomes personal waste instead.

I can imagine marathon matches with mines everywhere up to the enemy base  Will also cause problems in the early game after the first harv returned, enabling you to rush but not defend because of not enough time and money.

[KrypTheBear]

8 minutes ago, Agent said:

Could always just remove mines belonging to a person when they're mind-banned.

...Or remove the mine limit and make them a purchasable item instead, so that team waste becomes personal waste instead.

Make it similar to AT-mines, whereas every person has a limit (say 3 mines) and make it purchasable, so mining actually becomes a team effort. And you could use mines offensively then (if you infiltrate a building, for instance.). Which is something I miss from the old Renegade. 

Or actually, depending on how much you want to make them cost I could settle with your idea aswell, since it also makes offensive mining possible. 

[Ryz]

No, no, lets not make it a team effort more than it is.

I played a few games where both teams consisted of 90% solo players on both sides and I was one of the only persons mining and thus spend remining the WHOLE game. I never ever received any reply by the team and while they were celebrating they killed an enemy building, the enemy did the same to us. I couldn't defend 4 buildings, nor 3 or 2 so we eventually 'won' cause I was able to hold the WF almost single handly. 

If i had to pay mines I couldn't cause I didn't score a lot of money while protecting + nobody was able to answer teamchat. 

Past two days I had numerous games where only one or two people cared about mines, while on 3 or 4 maps in a row there was like zero teamchat. If mines become purchasable only than I think I just uninstall the game (might be a good reason to actually make the change so you can get rid of me :P).

Now it is very difficult to keep the mines good cause a lot of people don't care. Why would they care more if you chance something? It would only extra punish the people who care cause they spent all their money on defending the base...

Still, and I know people disagree, i think people should be disallowed certain options in the beginning till they proved themself. This can be ladder based, so the ladder stores they followed a tutorial (once there).  If that doesn't work than a mineban should be a bit longer so people think about it + it would help if there was a huge message saying this to them.  If noticed that some people  start to read AFTER they are banned. When you try to reach them ingame there comes no reply for numerous times, but as soon as there is a ban and they can't do stuff they suddenly start to read....
 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Ryz

[lawANDorder]

You think in bigger dimensions than me  Purchasable mines will be quite game-changing I think. If people like the idea you should think about if the whole system about mct´s isn´t too vulnerable then. I mean on a map with 5 buildings it´s unlikely to have all entrances mined until the first apc arrives... 

[boxes]

The assigned commander in the commander mod should be able to disarm all mines, not just anybody as that would either lead to discreet team hampering (not knowing who disarmed a door and running away for 3 sbh to walk in), or a back and forth clawfight between 2 people who think they know how to mine properly by disarming each other's mines and placing their own in their favorite spot. 

Making mines purchasble and removing the limit sure would fix the overmining issue, but would introduce a bigger problem, and that being late game stalemates when everybody is loaded on cash and spends them on mines. Infantry tunnels will likely be stuffed to the brim with proxies, and by the time you reach a door you'll find out the dedicated defenders spent their time and money putting 50 mines per building. If we discuss a way to properly discourage this playstyle without affecting the mining job as a whole, I'll be down for Agent's idea. 

[TheOlsenTwins]

im still in favor of a overhaul of the mining system (or a different defense system) which would also deter early chem rushes... https://renegade-x.com/forums/topic/74783-another-proposal-for-the-mining-system/

 

Also, since the mine number has been halved its kind of annoying to play NOD in flying maps, as they would need more mines than GDI as they have far more entrances than GDI (ex. HON windows)

=> you dont really notice 1 mine going down, but you dont have enough to put 2 mines everywhere...

 

 

[Madkill40]

I was going to suggest that if the mine limit it maxed then mining near poorly placed mines will remove those mines rather than the mines which were first placed, this would allow an active and decent miner to take action on poor mines. 

But this still emits a problem.

I think instead a whitelist for trusted miners should be put in place

"A whitelist? What? So anyone not on the whitelist can't mine? That's stupid. You're stupid."

WRONG BITCH

A whitelist of people who can disarm their teams' mines, there can be a few ways this whitelist works.

1. Whitelist is manually done by admin or moderator.

2. A player acquires 50+ [Player] kills from mines alone in one game then they will be automatically suggested or added to the "Mine Disarm" whitelist.

3. Both 1 & 2

 

"[Player] kills" meaning bot kills do not count, if its possible not count any names with '' in it then that's probably the easiest method of making bots not count towards the 50+ [Player] kills from mines.

 

A whitelist for players to have the ability of disarming any mines their team has placed in-theory is less abusive, easier to track and more effective than trying to limit or change the function of mines themselves. 

[Fffreak9999]

"A player acquires 50+ [Player] kills from mines alone in one game"

That would be VERY few people if anyone , since once mining has actually begun, people are far more weary of trying to disarm them in advance, and the fact 50 would be too high, I rarely get 10 kills in a marathon match from all sources as a base defender. 

This would likely cause scenarios of boosting mine kills which is not ideal either.

And having a Whitelist populated by an admin/moderator as well would not work since you would A. Need an active Admin/Mod and B. Still doesn't prevent overmining which is the majority problem in the first place. Agent's solution is much better, but still not perfect.

Quote

The assigned commander in the commander mod should be able to disarm all mines

This would be good, but it would require someone to actually work on implementing a working true addition to the base game Commander mod, since currently only CT runs the Commander Mod.

As to a solution to prevent flooding of mines in the late game, possibly implement an increasing cost purchasable, which increases in cost as the game goes on, starting at say 50 credits for 1 in the first 2-4 mins, and maybe 300 at 20 mins or later (This is only an example, and would definitely need balancing if this was to become a thing)

[Madkill40]

23 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

 

And having a Whitelist populated by an admin/moderator as well would not work since you would A. Need an active Admin/Mod and B. Still doesn't prevent overmining which is the majority problem in the first place. 

There are active admin/mods for a "Player can disarm any teams' mines" Whitelist, at least for the CT server, it'd have to be SteamID based of course but this method is the least abusive, players would just have to apply via a thread to be on the whitelist but I think it'd be effective and would solve this whole issue. Outside of applying via a thread an Admin/Mod could also pick out active and trusted miners for this whitelist which falls as an added responsibility.

IRC can display "SteamID_014808350 disarmed Player294's mine", this way if someone on the whitelist abuses the whitelist it'd be very easy to remove them from the whitelist.

Yes, this increases what an Admin/Mod has to do when maintaining a server but that's an occupational hazard. 

An abuse of privilege doesn't seem very likely as those selected for the Disarm whitelist are trusted regulars, not Joe-Player294.

The only difficult part would be creating the disarm whitelist, I'd imagine it would fall under the guise of a mutator making this a serverside addon and not something hard-coded into the game.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Madkill40

[lawANDorder]

On 29.9.2016 at 4:12 PM, Madkill40 said:

A whitelist of people who can disarm their teams' mines, there can be a few ways this whitelist works.

This turned the presence of "whitelisted" players mandatory to just keep the current state. Can´t see any progress in this.

Edited September 30, 2016 by lawANDorder

[Madkill40]

11 minutes ago, lawANDorder said:

This turned the presence of "whitelisted" players mandantory to just keep the current state. Can´t see any progress in this.

Here I was thinking the issue was mines being placed in dumb places, or mines left in destroyed buildings by a player who is too preoccupied to remove them.

One commander left with the responsibility to disarm mines doesn't seem like the best of ideas, unless a commander can select people to disarm mines for each game as well?

Edited September 30, 2016 by Madkill40

[Agent]

I'm pretty sure this thread serves as evidence as to how broken Renegade's mine system is, and exposes the inherent flaws of having a weapon limited to an arbitrary number of team-wide uses.

We're not doing a whitelist. That would be absurd. I also don't think the ability to disarm mines should be limited to the commander -- the commander isn't inherently special or more trustworthy than any other players, and this just creates more work for that player. If you're going to open up disarming team member's mines you have to give that ability to everybody on the team, not just one or two people. One way to mitigate the chances of malicious demining would be to have an EVA message similar to the current over-mining message. Again though, you're just wrapping a broken system with duct tape and band-aids and hoping it'll work. It won't. That's why I'm so insistent on making them a purchasable and disposable item -- it fixes the problems that proximity mines currently have, even if it requires a bit of balancing work.

[lawANDorder]

27 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

Here I was thinking the issue was mines being placed in dumb places, or mines left in destroyed buildings by a player who is too preoccupied to remove them.

Edit: You are right I missunderstood - thought you suggested to only allow whitelisted players to mine. Nevertheless...

It shouldn´t be a problem if mines are in dumb places or left in destroyed buildings in the first place or affect gameplay as heavily as it does. Your solution doesn´t adress the problem imo and causes new issues especially for the integration of new players. Making the usage of core game feautures dependent of the benevolence of server mods may not increase the game attractiveness as you expect.

16 minutes ago, Agent said:

exposes the inherent flaws of having a weapon limited to an arbitrary number of team-wide uses.

On 29.9.2016 at 6:36 PM, Fffreak9999 said:

to prevent flooding of mines in the late game

so make it a number of individual uses like AT mines?

Edited September 30, 2016 by lawANDorder

[boxes]

We all know it's broken and no matter what we do to alleviate it it's still going to be flawed and complicated.  

Many ideas have been thrown around to replace the current mining system, which I believe should be a big step to making this game a bit more friendly to newcomers. 

[vandal33]

The current system is not perfect but I don't see any way to make this problem go away completely.

Bad mining can happen when:

• new players don't know what is the best way to use the mines or not aware of mine limit
• people don't care about mines in base or its importance
• some troller is team-hampering
• a good miner didn't remove mines from a destroyed building

For problem 1 and 2, those new players just need to understand the best use of mines and how it works. This requires their common sense or experience how their miserable mines fail the team or how enemy well-placed mines actually make a difference. Restricting overmining or individual-based mine limits (like the AT mines) just doesn't help them to understand eventhough it stops them from ruining the well-placed mines, other problems will arise like we already discussed how overmining can be useful and individual-based limit will break low player games. There should be like a help page that tells people about not to overmine and how it will affect the team.

For problem 3, there's nothing much you can do. It's a team-based game and if one person is hampering the team in any way, boot him (or in this case, mine-ban him) ASAP. For problem 4, remind your teammate to demine the no longer needed mines. If your team loses just because the guy forgot to demine the mines in a destroyed building, don't worry, team failure because of teammate's negligence is normal. Basically, for problem 3 and 4, you can't find an effective way to prevent it so it's all about recovering from it. The ability to remove mines from "whitelisted" people or voted commander sounds good. How about friendly proximity C4s appear on radar clearly so it can be spotted quickly and removed by those who have the power to.

[DrSilence]

19 hours ago, lawANDorder said:

so make it a number of individual uses like AT mines?

wohoo, more base campers and more "buy tanks!!!" in chat

on a map with 4 buildings you need 8 hotties and 9-10 techs.
-> means ~50% of the players are required to mine the base.

to even worse it up, you can make it behave like AT Mines:
-> if the player dies or change class, mines get removed.

[Sire]

Just throwing my random musing in here. (Man, I dislike the double spacing it does. I want my single spacing back!)

Current System: Hotwires and Technicians are the sole miners, requiring a Barracks or a Hand of Nod to purchase. Mines are refillable but have a team limit on the number placed. (Problems: Overmining or mining in the wrong locations can throw away the entire game.)

Proposal 1: Add a personal cap for mines. (Problems: Requires more team members to mine instead of one or two mining everything.)

Proposal 2: Add purchasable, disposal mines. (Problem: How will they be limited? Player caps, solely on credits, team cap?)

Proposal 3: Preplaced Mines ("Mining Areas"). The MCT of a structure controls mine placement and paying credits will automatically lay down the mines. (Problems: No longer allows proxy mines elsewhere, just in the predesignated locations. Also, does destroying the Barracks and HON deny preplaced mines?)

* * * * *

Sire's Proposal: Preplaced Mines + Disposal Mines

1: The MCT controls mine placement for that structure. Visit the MCT, pay a credit amount, and the building will automatically be mined.

1a: The UI may show a building's mine count instead of overall count.

1b: Payment is done per mine. If all the mines are gone, the cost will be higher than if just one mine is missing. (50 credits a mine? Aprox ~300 credits a building?)

1c: Subject to balance and testing - If the Barracks or HON is destroyed, disables MCT mine placement or increases the price of mines. Alternatively, have the Power Plant adjust mine costs when it is destroyed, allowing for MCT mines even with the BAR and HON gone.

2:  Hotwires and Technicians still have access to Proxy Mines, but they now function like Anti-Tank mines or Remote C4. Meaning, there is a personal cap as that class on how many can be deployed, even though they can still be refilled from a Purchase Terminal.

2a: Dying as a Hotwire or Technician will start deactivation of your mines, similar to a rate of an Engineer's Repair Gun. (This is to allow a last second "after death" kill or a few seconds on a mined beacon. I think AT mines should also have this functionality instead of disappearing immediately.)

Pros: Overming and Inexperienced miners are no longer an issue as the important mines are pre-placed and simply need to be purchased. // Hotwires and Technicians can still use Proxy Mines to fortify or mine other locations, at a personal cap.

Cons: Will likely require a good amount of coding to implement. Preferably it is done within the ground and air versions of a building and tied to a structure instead of having to be done on a per-map basis. // Placing excess team mines in as structure when one is losing will probably be no longer possible. // Mining the base is considerably more expensive than before. (350 Hottie/Tech can mine a full base, whereas the cost here for MCT mines raises per structure.)

Edited October 1, 2016 by Sire

[lawANDorder]

3 hours ago, Sire said:

Just throwing my random musing in here. (Man, I dislike the double spacing it does. I want my single spacing back!)

Current System: Hotwires and Technicians are the sole miners, requiring a Barracks or a Hand of Nod to purchase. Mines are refillable but have a team limit on the number placed. (Problems: Overmining or mining in the wrong locations can throw away the entire game.)

Proposal 1: Add a personal cap for mines. (Problems: Requires more team members to mine instead of one or two mining everything.)

Proposal 2: Add purchasable, disposal mines. (Problem: How will they be limited? Player caps, solely on credits, team cap?)

Proposal 3: Preplaced Mines ("Mining Areas"). The MCT of a structure controls mine placement and paying credits will automatically lay down the mines. (Problems: No longer allows proxy mines elsewhere, just in the predesignated locations. Also, does destroying the Barracks and HON deny preplaced mines?)

* * * * *

Sire's Proposal: Preplaced Mines + Disposal Mines

1: The MCT controls mine placement for that structure. Visit the MCT, pay a credit amount, and the building will automatically be mined.

1a: The UI may show a building's mine count instead of overall count.

1b: Payment is done per mine. If all the mines are gone, the cost will be higher than if just one mine is missing. (50 credits a mine? Aprox ~300 credits a building?)

1c: Subject to balance and testing - If the Barracks or HON is destroyed, disables MCT mine placement or increases the price of mines. Alternatively, have the Power Plant adjust mine costs when it is destroyed, allowing for MCT mines even with the BAR and HON gone.

2:  Hotwires and Technicians still have access to Proxy Mines, but they now function like Anti-Tank mines or Remote C4. Meaning, there is a personal cap as that class on how many can be deployed, even though they can still be refilled from a Purchase Terminal.

2a: Dying as a Hotwire or Technician will start deactivation of your mines, similar to a rate of an Engineer's Repair Gun. (This is to allow a last second "after death" kill or a few seconds on a mined beacon. I think AT mines should also have this functionality instead of disappearing immediately.)

Pros: Overming and Inexperienced miners are no longer an issue as the important mines are pre-placed and simply need to be purchased. // Hotwires and Technicians can still use Proxy Mines to fortify or mine other locations, at a personal cap.

Cons: Will likely require a good amount of coding to implement. Preferably it is done within the ground and air versions of a building and tied to a structure instead of having to be done on a per-map basis. // Placing excess team mines in as structure when one is losing will probably be no longer possible. // Mining the base is considerably more expensive than before. (350 Hottie/Tech can mine a full base, whereas the cost here for MCT mines raises per structure.)

I like the idea to integrate the defensive function of mining into buildings. Perhaps you could add some new armor type displayed for the buildings that represent the defensive systems. Also you could add a little terminal next to each door where the door defence can be purchased and dectiviated with the enemy repair tool, like door lasers somebody Glacious suggested in another thread. Mines could then be used as a normal weapon to purchase while door defences act indepentently from bar/hon (maybe dependent of pp to give the pp a purpose on maps without base defences?)

Edited October 2, 2016 by lawANDorder

[Madkill40]

We've reached a point where the same ideas are coming forward and I've noticed a never ending cycle in this discussion, so I've pondered over this whole fiasco...

What are mines for? Mines stop players being able to rush into a building all at once, mines catch sneakers off-guard, mines keep people out of a building for a duration of time by either causing death or forcing a player to disarm before entry, mines keep the observant members of a team alerted by way of a counter/limiter. In this case, mines do that job and they do that job fine, but players will abuse and thus the system is inherently broken.

Other than a stationary object that grants caution to the enemy team mines aren't meant to be a permanent defense, a base without active defenders is doomed to explode regardless of the current mining system or a new mining system. 

But still we suffer abuse due to over-mining. 

Pre-placed mines are even more limited.

Purchasable mines is EKT 55 mines territory, especially if the game is a marathon server regardless of cost inflation with every purchase.

AT-style mines for proximity mines is ludicrous!... 

But y'know something? The buildings are quite spacious aren't they? 

Exchange mines for deploy-able, automated turrets instead.

Nod get a Flame turret, GDI get a grenade turret, they have a proximity around them to disallow players from having too many turrets in one area.

Lets face it! Mines are archaic in games these days, by all means, give them the AT-style limit but give them to Hottys and Techies and replace remote C4s for engis with proxies, because now Engis/Techs/Hottys can be on a maximum of 3 mines per player to coincide with deploy-able automated turrets, proximity mines disappear only when they are replaced or exploded, they do not expire, mines by this way could (and probably should) be made weaker.

How is a turret effective? Why are you even suggesting this? Well, if a turret is ignored it will kill you but you can get your c4s on the MCT at least! Then its down for an active defender to investigate! Or you can try to destroy the turret instead, but when it goes off it can make an alarm sound as well as noisy gunfire sound effects. [An EMP grenade, if you have one, can nullify their effectiveness by disabling them for a time]

A turret would be purchasable and we all know that if that badboy is slapped in the most stupid, trolling and/or retarded position ever then that player can get a turretban, which will make other players not want to get a turretban because who wants to allow themselves to be banned from placing a GOD DAMN turret? 

These turrets are purchasable items of course that increase in price the more you purchase them rather than a maximum limit, you are however limited by how close one turret is to another turret. Example of outdoor proximity limits for turrets; you would only be able to get 3 turrets at a push on top of the walls on CNC-Walls, this proximity length-ways works the same width-ways so let that square proximity sink in.

Obviously a way to abuse the proximity would be to place a turret near a building instead of inside a building, leaving the building defenseless(quite literally), so each building has its own personal proximity of 1 turret per building thus ignoring the proximity limits of outdoor turrets.

The turrets themselves? Well, lets see... The grenade turret can spin 360 degrees on its axis but suffers the penalty of a slow rate of fire, the flame turret has a maximum range of say... 165 degrees for the direction its placed to face (Which is the direction a player is facing) but it breathes fire! So its penalty is range.

But don't leave the decision of how these turrets work and function down to just me, thoughts?

To make the difference between outdoor and indoor turrets possible for the game make two separate purchases. i.e. Complex Turret (Indoor turret), Mesa Turret (Outdoor turret)

[D.A.T.] Deployable Automated Turrets, The Short Version:

• Purchasable turrets inflate in price for each currently active turret.
• 1 Complex turret (Indoor specific turret) per building.
• Mesa Turret (Outdoor turret) are limited by proximity to one another and not by a counter, this range is debatable.
• Nod Turrets are Flame turrets. (Close-range, 160 degree axis) [debatable]
• GDI Turrets are Grenade turrets. (Slow rate of fire, 360 degree axis) [debatable]
• Complex Turrets are loud and noisy and create a loud detection noise when they spot an enemy to alert active defenders of infiltration.
• Mesa Turrets are just loud and noisy.
• SBH are detected by (Complex) turrets. You're invisible to GDI players so don't ask to be undetectable to (Complex) turrets.
• SBH are undetectable to Mesa Turrets (Outdoor turrets)
• Proximity mines replace Engineers' Remote C4s [debatable]
• Maximum of 3 proximity mines per player. 
• Techies/Hottys can right-click hack turrets to disarm them, somehow, maybe. Perhaps they can just have an EMP grenade?

Lastly, the main gist to these turrets is that they're kinda shit in a big open space or on long corridors but in a confined space they can be effective enough to by some time for the active defenders to find the source of infiltration, alternatively they'll kill weak infantry or weakened infantry if the player is shit, alternatively for that they'll weaken not so shit players/not so shit infantry.

 

[boxes]

The system I'm currently favoring is Agent's idea plus a tweak on mine price, and maybe an alarm system as well.

The current mine limit should either be completely removed or only show the total mines placed (#) instead of (#/#). Mines should start out at 250 for 3, and after every 8 minutes the price increases by 50. By the 30 minute mark, mines should cost 500 for 3, making mine spam less of a threat. Destroyed PP should affect the mine price, and destroyed refineries should be 1 credit tick per second. 

If the mine counter is removed, an alarm system should replace "MINES DROPPING!11!!". The alarm system works by the structure playing sounds whenever an enemy infantry is inside a structure. You can only hear the alarm when you are at a somewhat close proximity to the structure being infiltrated, approximately the same sound radius as a superweapon beacon. 

[yosh56]

If anyone changes anything it won't be me. Honestly it.. works enough. There will always be trolls, and there will always be a need for a tutorial no matter what. As far as I'm concerned now, at least the system in place, most people know how to use, and it takes all of like a day of playing to have it figured out. 

 

That, and at some point I'm pretty sure we said we weren't changing anything else sans, minor balance changes (and honestly I still can't find anything imbalanced aside from teams and maybe some maps) and maybe adding to the UI. If anyone wants to do things to replace mines, you're better off trying it in a map with a mutator or something of the like.  

[boxes]

It's not particularly the trolls being a problem, it's the fact that its a weapon that if you use incorrectly, you will get your feelings hurt. 

[Sire]

Not so keen on the turrets, but for purchasable mines may be a good idea. So, if mines hypothetically can be bought from the Purchase Terminal...

1: Are these mines refillable or one time use?

2: Who can buy the mines? Anybody, or just Hotwires/Techs & Engineers?

3: What happens to Hotwire & Technician mines?

4: What sort of limit is there for purchasable mines? Credits only?

5: Are mines still purchasable if the Barracks or Hand of Nod are destroyed?

6: How will players be alerted if the mine count is dropping?

7: How will the balance of EMP Grenades versus Mines be affected?

* * * * *

Honestly, the problem with the current system is inexperienced miners and perhaps the occasional troll. Those without experience may accidently overmine or misplace mines because they don't know where to properly put them, leading to false positives. "Okay, we got full mines, how the hell did we lose a building?!"

A good tutorial would help matters, but even some loading screen tips could educate players. Things such as...

1: "Beware of overmining! There is a mine limit per map, and any new mines placed will overwrite the old ones!"

2: "Anti-Tank mines do not count toward the mine limit, but are disarmed upon your death."

3: "When putting down mines, try placing three per door. Place them just inside so they can't be easily disarmed."

4: "Remember to disarm mines in destroyed structures! Those mines can be placed in better locations."

Trolls and team hampers can be argued to be part of any multiplayer game, and must be dealt with appropriately. While there may be ways to lessen their impact, they will still find a way to screw something up. 

Personally I'm fine with the current system since I go on mine duty every now and then, but if it can somehow be improved for the better, go for it.

[boxes]

1 minute ago, Sire said:

Not so keen on the turrets, but for purchasable mines may be a good idea. So, if mines hypothetically can be bought from the Purchase Terminal...

1: Are these mines refillable or one time use?

2: Who can buy the mines? Anybody, or just Hotwires/Techs & Engineers?

3: What happens to Hotwire & Technician mines?

4: What sort of limit is there for purchasable mines? Credits only?

5: Are mines still purchasable if the Barracks or Hand of Nod are destroyed?

6: How will players be alerted if the mine count is dropping?

7: How will the balance of EMP Grenades versus Mines be affected?

* * * * *

Honestly, the problem with the current system is inexperienced miners and perhaps the occasional troll. Those without experience may accidently overmine or misplace mines because they don't know where to properly put them, leading to false positives. "Okay, we got full mines, how the hell did we lose a building?!"

A good tutorial would help matters, but even some loading screen tips could educate players. Things such as...

1: "Beware of overmining! There is a mine limit per map, and any new mines placed will overwrite the old ones!"

2: "Anti-Tank mines do not count toward the mine limit, but are disarmed upon your death."

3: "When putting down mines, try placing three per door. Place them just inside so they can't be easily disarmed."

4: "Remember to disarm mines in destroyed structures! Those mines can be placed in better locations."

Trolls and team hampers can be argued to be part of any multiplayer game, and must be dealt with appropriately. While there may be ways to lessen their impact, they will still find a way to screw something up. 

Personally I'm fine with the current system since I go on mine duty every now and then, but if it can somehow be improved for the better, go for it.

1. One time

2. Anybody

3. Removed

4. Credits

5. Yes

6. By either seeing the total mine count dropping or by an alarm system for infiltrators

7. EMPs stay the same, and probably should be given to elite-status Rocket Soldiers. 

Making a tutorial on mines needs to be quick. People aren't going to use a minute or more on their life listening to how to mine properly in Renegade X. The way it currently is is very complex, and there's no way somebody's going to learn the important bits of it and remember them within a reasonable time span. There's also those people who don't speak or understand English. 

[Sire]

@CampinJeff

Okay, so purchasable mines...

One Time Use // Anyone can purchase them // Mines are removed from Hotwires and Technicians // Mines are limited solely by Credits // Mines can still be bought when Bar or Hon are destroyed // Alerts are by player observation or an infiltrator alarm system // EMPs remain as is

I still have several points of contention in an attempt to refine the idea...

1: EMPs can be considered "free", even though they require a player to be a certain class. Through throwing repeated EMPs and retreating to refill, that player can drain the minelayer's funds. This is especially the case if the price of mines continue to rise throughout the game. (Think Islands, LCG tossing EMPs at Bar constantly. Perhaps GDI lost its refinery too, so theoretically it'll be a matter of time before the GDI minelayer goes broke. This may or may not be a good thing.)
1a: This can also be done by free infantry rushing to blow up the mines, or simply Mines being disarmed in general by repair guns.

I suppose mines become more of a cash sink late game while also attempting to be a proper defensive mechanics. Perhaps draining a player's funds will become a valid tactic? Of course, multiple rushes will eventually get noticed and that area defended, but the point may still stand. Do we want mines to make players go broke and be unable to buy anything? This can matter as the matches drag on, making mines more of a luxury instead of a regular method of defense. ("Why buy 3 mines when I can get a powerful vehicle or infantry instead?")

In the current system, a dedicated miner could donate excess funds to his/her team, perhaps helping organized rushes and the like. In the new system, dedicated miners would probably run out of money a lot, requiring the team to carry the slack or donate to the miner.

-----

2: How will early game mining be done? With the current system, a player or two can run a Hottie/Tech and mine the entire base, whereas the new system will require a lot more investment to mine the base. Will players simply need to adapt to this new system?

This will make early game rushes and infiltrations even more effective if there are no real mines around to counter them. Do we want to extend early game a little more before investing into more powerful vehicles and infantry?

Also, if games end too early or a structure is lost early game, players on the losing side tend to lose morale and may opt to simply surrender to get a better game going, unless the current match is a fun one.

-----

3: Hotwires and Technicians. This is more of a personal contention as I like running a Hotwire or Technician and don't particularly like a core component of the class stripped away without some replacement.
3a: They get to keep their Proxy Mines, but these have a personal deploy cap of 6 and are considered separate compared to the purchasable variant. This is what I would prefer. (They can fortify certain positions and the like and are slightly resistant to EMP grenades as they can refill and replace. Killing the Hotwire / Tech will disarm their personal mines.)
3b: Proxy mines are replaced by Anti-Tank mines.
3c: Proxy mines are gone anyway and these classes have to be happy with repairing or infiltrating instead of full defense duty.

I could suggest giving them more C4 or something equally crazy, such as giving them a better weapon, but I like the class to still remain somewhat defensive in nature while keeping open the infiltration possibilities.

* * * * *

As for mining tutorials, at it's core mining is relatively simple (just mine inside the doors). The hard part comes in flying maps and one has to be aware of all of these, especially if one is on Nod (HoN Windows, Strip Tower). I would simply say to cover the basics and leave the more advanced stuff for a more in-depth tutorial.

I still think Loading Screen Tips could help out newer players, even if the tips are random. I don't think a first time newcomer will normally go straight for mines and full defense duty...

[boxes]

41 minutes ago, Sire said:

@CampinJeff

 

1: I suppose mines become more of a cash sink late game while also attempting to be a proper defensive mechanics. Perhaps draining a player's funds will become a valid tactic? Of course, multiple rushes will eventually get noticed and that area defended, but the point may still stand. Do we want mines to make players go broke and be unable to buy anything? This can matter as the matches drag on, making mines more of a luxury instead of a regular method of defense. ("Why buy 3 mines when I can get a powerful vehicle or infantry instead?")

In the current system, a dedicated miner could donate excess funds to his/her team, perhaps helping organized rushes and the like. In the new system, dedicated miners would probably run out of money a lot, requiring the team to carry the slack or donate to the miner.

-----

2: How will early game mining be done? With the current system, a player or two can run a Hottie/Tech and mine the entire base, whereas the new system will require a lot more investment to mine the base. Will players simply need to adapt to this new system?

This will make early game rushes and infiltrations even more effective if there are no real mines around to counter them. Do we want to extend early game a little more before investing into more powerful vehicles and infantry?

Also, if games end too early or a structure is lost early game, players on the losing side tend to lose morale and may opt to simply surrender to get a better game going, unless the current match is a fun one.

-----

3: Hotwires and Technicians. This is more of a personal contention as I like running a Hotwire or Technician and don't particularly like a core component of the class stripped away without some replacement.
3a: They get to keep their Proxy Mines, but these have a personal deploy cap of 6 and are considered separate compared to the purchasable variant. This is what I would prefer. (They can fortify certain positions and the like and are slightly resistant to EMP grenades as they can refill and replace. Killing the Hotwire / Tech will disarm their personal mines.)
3b: Proxy mines are replaced by Anti-Tank mines.
3c: Proxy mines are gone anyway and these classes have to be happy with repairing or infiltrating instead of full defense duty.

As for mining tutorials, at it's core mining is relatively simple (just mine inside the doors). The hard part comes in flying maps and one has to be aware of all of these, especially if one is on Nod (HoN Windows, Strip Tower). I would simply say to cover the basics and leave the more advanced stuff for a more in-depth tutorial.

1. Lowering your opponent's cash by disarming their mines is a good thing. Defenders will run out of money, which isn't a bad thing. 

2. Making mines cost 250/200/150 for 3 makes early game rushes still viable in a way so you can slow down the enemy team's economy. Yes it will require more people, just buy the mines and place it at the nearest door. You can mine all the doors at the start of the game, but it'll affect the vehicle and character count during early game (not a bad thing). 

3. C

It's more than that. What does "Mines Dropping" even mean to a new player? Why is overmining so bad? Why do you mine sandbags over doors on some maps (barracks)? Why don't you mine the tunnels/infantry path entrance? Why do you mine the stairs on the WF but not the ref or the PP or the bar? Why do you mine the handrail over the actual stair on the WF? Why do you mine the windows on the HON instead of the stairs on flying? Why do you mine the MCT over the door in the airstrip on flying? Why does your teammates hate you so much for using proxy mines even though you had good intentions? 

^Is somebody going to spend their precious time learning all of this just so they don't get kicked from a game?

[j0g32]

2 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

It's more than that. What does "Mines Dropping" even mean to a new player? Why is overmining so bad? Why do you mine sandbags over doors on some maps (barracks)? Why don't you mine the tunnels/infantry path entrance? Why do you mine the stairs on the WF but not the ref or the PP or the bar? Why do you mine the handrail over the actual stair on the WF? Why do you mine the windows on the HON instead of the stairs on flying? Why do you mine the MCT over the door in the airstrip on flying? Why does your teammates hate you so much for using proxy mines even though you had good intentions? 

^Is somebody going to spend their precious time learning all of this just so they don't get kicked from a game?

Good summary of the mining system dilemma.

My first suggestion:
How about simply increasing the mine limit, which gives "accidental" overmining by newcomers or trolls less impact. Serioisly, calculate the optimal number of mines (e.g. 3 per door) and then add 10% to that limit, this way you can also use some mines in the field e.g. in tunnels. Obviously, the damage would have to be slightly decreased per mine...

 

Anyway, I think this wole discussion about mines shows how reliant the current gameplay may be on the mine system.

Maybe we should simply split the functions that mines currently fulfil:

1) stop rushes (by killing unwary enemies)

2) slow rushes and alert defenders (by mine limit drops, in case of disarming mines, or in case of sacrificing the first intruder)

@Madkill40 already mentioned placable turrets, but I feel they would not actually change the nature of the problem, namely that mines or turrets are placed manually and by multiple players.

However, I like the idea of introducing turrets as internal building defence mechanism. Personally, I was never a friend of using "proximity mines" in friendly structures for defence: why could enemy C4 placed in the interior blow up the whole building, but friendly explosive mines would only damage enemies? In general, I think that friendly fire should be enabled, also to stop like artillery whoring into tunnels etc. ...

Everyone who has played the original Renegade Singleplayer campaign knows how annoying security cameras and ceiling turrets can be. I think @TheDeadlyWolf worked on a Ceiling Turret, and @DoctorAnubis wanted to use it in his map Paradise. (My apologies if the credits are incorrect - I see @MajorLunaC also suggested something along similar lines)

My second suggestion:

Bring back ceiling turrets (and/or security cameras), and install them in designated places in every building. The gameplay would then rely less on mines as an intruder alert system. In fact, I would add an audio announcement whenever a camera/turret spots an enemy, alerting every team member, without a dedicated "mine-limit observer". This alarm system would only tell "INTRUDER ALERT!", but not in which building, causing similar panicky searches to the current mine limit.

Ceiling turrets - as opposed to security cameras - would also slow down or prevent unwary rushes, as they deal some damage to the intruder (similar to mines), but are easy to eliminate.

Both ceiling turrets and security cameras would be placed by the Devs/Mappers in the buildings, and can be deactived by EMP, or simply destroyed. Once destroyed they can be repaired by engineers, but are only re-activated with 100% health - thus similar to re-mining a building after a rush.

Turrets/cameras can co-exist with mines in the current system, but they reduce the "over-reliance" of gameplay on the mining system, as they fulfil a similar function.

What do you guys think?!

Edited October 2, 2016 by j0g32

[Sire]

Welp, I'm beat. I got really nothing else to add to the discussion.

Maybe I haven't played much Renegade X as I need to, but I see overmining and inexperienced mining as more of a minor annoyance instead of something that requires full on attention. I believe educating new players in the complexities of the system is still a valid way to resolve some issues, even if it is still newcomer unfriendly. Most of the scenarios @CampinJeff will require an in-depth mining tutorial, and while perhaps extremely helpful for an overall match, is not something newcomers should understand immediately so they can just play the game and have fun.
Newcomers should be content mining the doors most of the time, veterans can pick up the slack and place mines in the more "advanced" locations. Yes, it is probably tiring educating the new guy every couple matches, especially if that new guy happens to accidentally throw away the game. Teach the player and move on to the next match. There is no such thing as a "perfect match every match", as memorable matches are spread out between the regular ones. 

As for purchasable mines, it sounds all right (expanded early game, credit sink late game, less reliance on Bar & HON), although if Hotwires and Techs do end up losing mines without a replacement I won't be too happy, but it if the concept works as a mutator or is incorporated into the game proper, then I guess I have no choice but to deal with it.

While I like the turret idea on paper, for some reason it doesn't strike me as something that sounds like Renegade. Then again, Sprinting wasn't in the original Renegade, so maybe something like turrets can work. I'm still not too convinced on turrets though, but I'll leave that discussion to the others.

[Madkill40]

Outside of turrets I don't really see the mining system as broken but rather people willing to look for excuses for not actively defending the base, what should really be done is more incentive given to a player to defend the base rather than focusing around a damn prop.

Bad mining will occur and it is how we treat the players doing it that is the problem, if you burn newbies for incorrect mines then YOU are the douchebag not them for not knowing because lets be reasonable about this, lets just appropriately assume that not everybody has come to RenX from playing old-ren so lets be more friendly to bad miners than "BANBANBAN" like a clique of mingebags. I knew about mines being placed in doorways when I returned to RenX, but I had come from a 5 mines per door system cause old-ren. Its 3 mines per door these days. We need user-friendly advice more than ever if you truly care for Renegade-X's well being. Stop being dicks.

 

As Yosh said, someone should just make a mutator for purchasable mines. Mutators are the way forward in testing ideas such as this, it does seem like something worth testing at the very least.

[TheDeadlyWolf]

Yeah thats right j0g32

1) I created the Ceiling Turret Script via help with Hands

2) Found a way to fix the problem without adding the Translation Thing

3) Doctor Anubis added a different version of Ceiling Turrets - Originally used my Script, but tried creating his version via Kismet in the end (think he may be using mine eventually)

4) Cant change the damage which is annoying but I can change the health

5) Still working with New SDK (the old built version is) havent rebuilt the script (had bad shit happen before)

6) Hourglass has 2 for each team - Nod have an advantage over GDI but at the same time its a disadvantage

P.S. Stronghold may contain CT's as extra defence - its been designed on paper

Thx for showing everyone that I spelt Ceiling turret wrong : ) 

Edited October 2, 2016 by TheDeadlyWolf

[Agent]

12 hours ago, j0g32 said:

My first suggestion:
How about simply increasing the mine limit, which gives "accidental" overmining by newcomers or trolls less impact. Serioisly, calculate the optimal number of mines (e.g. 3 per door) and then add 10% to that limit, this way you can also use some mines in the field e.g. in tunnels. Obviously, the damage would have to be slightly decreased per mine...

That's exactly how mines used to be and it obviously never worked like that. Players will always demand that every mine is used as a improvised defense mechanism as long as there's a limit.

 

7 hours ago, Sire said:

As for purchasable mines, it sounds all right (expanded early game, credit sink late game, less reliance on Bar & HON), although if Hotwires and Techs do end up losing mines without a replacement I won't be too happy, but it if the concept works as a mutator or is incorporated into the game proper, then I guess I have no choice but to deal with it.

Proximity C4 would become much more valuable when combined with a Hotwire/Technician, as you could then offensively mine the building you're infiltrating without worrying about over-mining. As it is, the proximity C4 on a Hotwire/Technician has no real value. There's nothing you really need to replace it with, because the class doesn't become any weaker. If anything, it's probably a buff to infiltrators.

As far as costs go, I was thinking 250/300 for a pack of three. Base defense should be a team efforts, not an individual effort. If a team has 20 players and only half of them buy mines, you've already got 30 mines much earlier than you would otherwise. My biggest concern is definitely trying to make sure mines aren't too cheap, but also not too expensive.

[yosh56]

I'm.. just looking at the fact that getting every game to end in 30m-1h30m has been achieved. Really don't need any more reason to break another system (and Ren has more than just mines as a faulty system) by making it rely super heavily on 'teamwork'... also known as forcing EVERYONE to do something super boring, like left clicking at a door. Having one person be able to mine is at least a + in its own right

On 10/2/2016 at 5:58 AM, j0g32 said:

My first suggestion:
How about simply increasing the mine limit, which gives "accidental" overmining by newcomers or trolls less impact. Serioisly, calculate the optimal number of mines (e.g. 3 per door) and then add 10% to that limit, this way you can also use some mines in the field e.g. in tunnels. Obviously, the damage would have to be slightly decreased per mine...

That.... literally is about how the mine-limit is already calculated. Islands 

 

21 hours ago, Agent said:

Base defense should be a team efforts, not an individual effort.

Yeah, but having mining rely on 20 people vs. 2 sounds like more of a pain in the ass than an understandable team effort. 

 

Honestly, I'm with Ryz... I probably wouldn't be playing anymore. 

[boxes]

Then at least some kind of visual aid when mines are equipped would solve at least some of the issues. 

[Fffreak9999]

I am sure there used to be a visual counter displayed in a prominent position when you had proxy mines equipped.

 

I don't know why it vanished

[Agent]

9 hours ago, yosh56 said:

Yeah, but having mining rely on 20 people vs. 2 sounds like more of a pain in the ass than an understandable team effort. 

I don't think it's crazy for people to buy mines and place them when they walk past an unmined door. "Oh, this door needs mines. Let me just do that real quick."

You don't have to "rely on 20 people" -- any remotely decent player who walks by an unmined door will likely think "oh, this door needs to be mined". Again, a team effort. You wouldn't require a dedicated defender constantly replacing mines anymore, because you wouldn't have to be a Hotwire or Technician. You wouldn't have to switch classes or wait on somebody else to take care of it.

[yosh56]

It's still added bloat, and early game rushes (not to mention lower player count games) are all going to be drastically affected, to the point where defending is just going to have to be a good half+ of the team's job, since they'll all be down credits and STILL all free infantry. For those of us who don't just play as a shotgunner 24/7 that's actually kind of a big deal. 

 250/300 for a pack of three is insane, even in a 20v20. That means HALF of a team has to be coordinated, as opposed to just 2-3 people, just to keep the game from ending in 5 minutes. It already does that enough as is. 

 

 

[Agent]

How is that bloat? It would drastically simplify gameplay, remove the single most convoluted mechanic from the game, and remove much more from the code base than it would add. Dedicated defenders would no longer be nearly as critical.

And that's half team participation if you want every door mined instantly. The base would actually probably get mined sooner than it currently does even with mines costing 250/300. And even then, not every door needs to be instantly mined and secured. It's perfectly fine for it to take a couple minutes.

[DoctorAnubis]

I haven't played in a while but I actually like the current mining system, it makes defending fun. Changing it could potentially kill that. Have to say, I still think sawed-off shotguns for hotwires/techs is the way to go 

[Sire]

When I used to play Old Ren, I played on a server that gave Engineers Shotguns and Hotwires/Techs Chainguns. The days of laying down five mines a door instead of three, or placing mines on walls and above doorways, hell, even placing mines on front of an APC! Fun times.

Anyways, Ren-X's version is fine as is without other weapons (I'm fine with the Heavy Pistol). They are meant to be a support class with the repair gun, with some explosive utility that can be used for offense or defense. Remote C4s can also be used defensively, but it requires a little more attention to use properly.

Like I have stated before, I'm fine with the current system, believing that educating players is the better way to go instead of revamping everything. While mining has changed somewhat from the original Renegade (more powerful mines, can't toss them anymore), the system is still familiar to old-time players who may be getting into Renegade X. However, I am open to trying out the purchasable mines method if it is ever implemented, as it may change the overall game for the better.

[voltex]

I don't think there is going to be an easy fix for this, there will be pros and cons for any system that's implemented that probably will still have to be re-balanced multiple times.

For now how about we make a hybrid system of the current mining and Agent's idea. When an infantry building is destroyed the team unlocks the ability to buy a set of mines limited to 3 or so per player similar to  the Anti Tank minse or be on a 1min cool down so they can't instantly re-mine.

[Gamma]

I don’t like idea of purchasable mines. Most players prefer to make a early game rush instead of buying and placing mines and again it will be done by 2 players. But much slower! Fast mining at the start is very important.
What about "Oh, this door needs mines. Let me just do that real quick." - each will shift responsibility to another. I agree with Yosh, people aren’t coordinated. Personal responsibility is always better. What’s wrong with 2 defending players? The team knows that these players will take care of mines and repairing. Otherwise, you would have to switch class when «Building needs repair» and lose precious time and money.

 

[Axesor]

Ahahah mines thread again. Just replace the damn mines with something else that would work more than "good enough, there will always be trolls". Why do you even stand with this broken mines system? Why dont you just admit that its pure broken unfixable pile of crap? <3