Sire

OpenRA Forums: http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=80 (It is actually a subset of a another major forum, but it sees enough activity to warrent checking every other day or so.) Map Design Contest - Rules: http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19910 (Maps made before the contest started [Jan 1, 2017] cannot be submitted. In more broader terms, I feel that any map already uploaded to the Map Center may not be eligible, but feel free to ask the organizer if you can submit yours. As a bonus tip, most maps are Red Alert related, so if you plan on making C&C maps, you will have way less competition.) Map Design Contest - Entries: http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19911 (These are all the maps that have been submitted to the contest thus far. You do not submit maps here, you do it through PMs on their message boards. If you want to see what my maps are like, I can send you a PM. Just keep in mind I submitted some of mine to the contest and I would prefer if they remained Anonymous.) * * * * * Under * * * * * 1: I did not mention adding a blue Tib field for Under, that was for Walls (and it's Oil Derrick). I just suggested adding a small passageway there so units do not have to go all the way up to the silo. (Think the "center hill infantry entrance" for Renegade X. I'm know there is one on GDI's side, surely there must be one for Nod." 2: The small tunnel paths (Base to Center Tunnels, Long Sneaking Tunnels) are fine, but they will need to be expanded slightly if they are kept in. Really narrow paths should be only 2-4 tiles wide. As for an updated suggestion, you can keep the initial base to center tunnels small as they are (around 2 tiles). I would expand the "Road Tunnel" a little more. Also, get rid of the "Village Cliff" against the present 2 southern houses and expand that area slightly. Transform it into a "mini-cave arena" with perhaps some spare rocks here and there as decoration and to obstruct some movement. 2A. Narrow paths are fine in C&C as they do tend to promote rush tactics or small squad tactics instead of maneuvering the main army (which will happen on the field). However, long 1 or 2 tile passages are far too narrow for RTS gameplay. Imagine fighting battles only on a long bridge or a long ford in Red Alert, but with Tiberian Dawn units, this is essentially what these narrow passages promote. Remember, main armies won't be using the side passages, even if they are 4 tiles wide. Armies will use 8+ tile battlegrounds to maneuver around, 4 tiles is too narrow for a main army. 2B. As for your Field test, the narrow Base to Base may be problematic. I can only imagine the map, but Advance Base Defense and MRLS & Artillery could easily shell the opposite base, either while in the safety of their own or using the tunnels. Dealing with a Mammoth Rush through the tunnels is likely due to how close the two bases are to each other (and dealing with the AI). Two solutions I have is to expand the tunnel area (which while a fun concept, may not actually play well) or move the bases further back from the tunnels. The new space will have to be filled with something (perhaps a river on each side that "disappears" into the "tunnel mountain" which eventually form the "mountain waterfall?") * * * * * General * * * * * Well, the links to the OpenRA forums are at the top of this post. Best of luck if you decide to participate in the Map Contest! Just remember the guidelines for passages. 2-4 is narrow and for small skirmishes, such as infantry and light vehicles (and occasionally rushes). 8-12 (or higher) is meant for main armies. Also remember that OpenRA's Tiberian Dawn is more of a Tank Game (multiple production queues promote vehicle usage) while Red Alert focuses more on Infantry. So, in TD maps, you will want more space to maneuver all of those vehicles around. Here's a link to an older Tiberian Dawn video with commentary by SoScared (an OpenRA streamer). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX3O9MKOjU4] This is to give you an idea of some competitive play. Most streamers (that I know of) are mostly on the Red Alert side of things, so finding Tiberian Dawn videos is a little more difficult (Dune 2000 more so).

The recreations look good! However, one major problem I see when making faithful recreations is that while the map design will work well for Renegade X, they will not really work for C&C play. I say this mostly coming from the Red Alert side of OpenRA and watching their streams (and participating in their current ongoing map design contest, it ends on the 28th of February). So, I would suggest making two separate versions of the maps. The first is the faithful recreation and the second is the "inspirational" map that changes things around to better suit RTS gameplay. As I said, recreation wise the maps are outstanding, but the RTS gameplay (especially competitive) will suffer. Casual play "mimicking" Renegade X with human players may be enjoyable as well as roleplay against the AI, but that is the extent I see of these maps in their current form. For an OpenRA version, I see the limited Tiberian Fields and the abundance of chokepoints being problematic. From looking at the official map pools, OpenRA maps favor more open maps as well has having several Tiberian fields (say 2-3 starting fields with 2-3 to expand to with a MCV.) This is much different to the more linear and "one base" style of Renegade X. For additional inspiration, look at Aggressive Tendencies and Lost Souls, two separate 1v1 maps in the C&C mod. Alternatively, you can look at Red Alert's style of mapping such as Desert Rats, Northwest Passage, and Side Step. Just keep in mind the difference in gameplay between the two (Red Alert has the classic "build more production to speed up the time" while Command and Conquer uses the more modern "different structures have different queues.") * * * * * As for Walls, I would suggest... 1. Enlarge the map (say 96x64) 2. Add the "four cliff passages" as well as the top and bottom entrances. I know classic C&C has no real verticality, but it can work to expanding the "cliff area." The four side passages can be relatively narrow (say 3-4 tiles), but make the north and south ones rather wide for vehicle access (at least 5-8). 3. Maybe replace the middle Oil Derrick with a Blue Tiberian Blossom to give player something to fight over. (Say a meteor hit the original spot, living debris and Blue Tiberian there.) 4. If the map is big enough on the "y" axis, add an expansion spot (Tiberian Field with a Blossom Tree) where the northern and southern crate would spawn. 5. If the field is too big on the "x" axis, consider adding a "Fortress" section behind the main "Walls" base, perhaps adding Concrete Walls and a safe expansion spot. You can put the "safe Oil Derrick" back here as well. General: As a rule of thumb, if you want to have armies move through a location, try to make the path rather wide (8-12 tiles). Narrow paths such as bridges and fords are more suited for infantry and light vehicle play instead of maneuvering large armies. In addition, narrow paths promote static play by relying heavily on base defenses and MLRS / Artillery to break stalemates. (Sounds familiar to Renegade X's problems, eh?) * * * * * As for Under, I would suggest... 1. Add at least one Tiberian Field near the starting area. They can be on the left or right of the starting locations or be above them. 2. Carve away at that massive northern mountain to make room for an expansion area (Tiberian Field + Base Building Space). Do so for both sides. 3. Make some space for an expansion area at the southwest and southeast areas. This is where the long sneaking route is at. 4. Move the "Bio Lab Cliff" one or two tiles down. It would be nice for infantry and small squads to be able to walk around it instead of being completely blocked. 5. Add in a small entrance (2-3 Tiles) area to the middle hill on both sides instead of having to go all the way up. The "first lone tree on the left" is a good place to start. 6. Double check the main vehicle path to the base if it is 8-12 tiles wide so armies can maneuver around. Remove the rocks and debris that block movement, decorative stuff is fine. 7. Double check the "tunnels" and side paths if they are 3-4 tiles wide for small squads. Normally such a small route from be frowned upon, but due to the nature of the map, I'll let it pass. 8. If you are daring, make an alternative vehicle path on the north end of the map so the northern expansions can attack each other. I know doing this will no longer make "Under Under," but it may improve the RTS gameplay due to more options. * * * * * ...And there's my feedback after looking at your maps in the map editor. I'll give them a proper play soon and come back to report on that.

In terms of nerfing Hotwire / Technician, I am in favor of reducing their C4 count so they no longer 1-shot buildings. They can lose a Timed C4 or some Remotes. In my opinion, the main frustrating aspect of infiltration is the 1-shot factor. Reducing reducing the ability for a solo player to one-shot a building (instantly) would be beneficial in the long term. Duo or Trio infiltrations can stay effective as they currently are. Remember that in Renegade X we have "Building Armor" and "Building Health." If an infiltrator manages to sneak in twice or sneak into a damaged building, then theoretically I'll be fine with if the structure is lost. What is frustrating to me is losing a building that has 100% Armor and Health instantly and no one knows what happened. If losing a C4 or two is not enough, then perhaps Hotwires / Techs secondary weapon can be nerfed or changed (Heavy Pistol). Perhaps they can also be slowed down a little as well to nudge them more towards defensive play. Another alternative is to keep the Timed C4 as is, but instead of 30 seconds to detonation, make them 45 seconds or even a full minute. This is a nerf to Timed C4 as a whole instead of just Hotwires and Technicians, but it may also work in regards to dealing with infiltrators to give the defenders more time to react.

Mission 1 Feedback - Thrown right into the action in this one. It took me a couple seconds to take in the situation, but I put the soldiers into the APC and escaped alongside the Humvee. Other than the start, it was a basic "micro" mission, moving the two vehicles around to avoid damage and to maintain their health. I cleared it without much difficulty, just lost the Humvee to the Artillery and ran past the two final Buggies. I never used the Infantry. Overall, a fun little map with the civilians somewhat helping the player by telling them where to go. I saw a glimpse of a Nod MCV and their base, but ran past it. The hardest part was figuring out what to do at the beginning. Mission 2 Feedback - "A+Left Click" makes this mission extremely easy, but it is an option for "Easy Difficulty" similar to how other Commando missions work. If the player had to aim manually, it would be a bit more difficult and more in-line of classic C&C. Also, since the player has full control of the Transport Helicopter, it can be used as a scouting vehicle or land elsewhere instead of the "intended" location. A fun method of keeping this way may be manipulating how the Nod base works. Instead of everything going off-line, Nod sells off it's SAM Sites to keep the Obelisk operational. So, instead of waltzing in the front door, the player sneaks in with the helicopter to complete the mission. Overall, another fun little micro mission, although "A Move" somewhat breaks it. The hardest part was the at the end with the Flame Troopers. Also, is the village just for decoration? After seeing the first mission, a part of me expected to see something there. Map Idea: Retaliation - Nod has stolen some GDI Tech from the outpost and are now testing "Tiberian Tanks," a improved version of their Flame Tank that is more durable and fires projectiles similar to their Chemical Trooper. Build a base and take out their testing facility. (Alternatively, to keep with the "micro theme," give the player a strike force to destroy the facility with.) Should be a simple mission as it is just destroy the enemy base, but the new thing is a modified (or cloned) Flame Tank, much like how there were Super Tanks in Monster Tank Madness (Red Alert). It should also help with some practice in getting used to the OpenRA engine.

I've been looking forward to the new release, but I could never get it working properly (the most common problem is lack of sound). So, I stay content watching the videos on the official channel and getting hyped over the story, both new and the retellings of the original campaigns. A part of me is hoping for an OpenRA port years down the line (RA2 in OpenRA is not done yet) so I can finally play it, but I have a feeling that states otherwise.

Sanctum 2 is fun for what it is, but I could not fully get into it despite have fully completed the first one. The 2nd game prioritizes shooting more than tower defense (which may be appropriate for Ren X players), yet when I play it it just doesn't seem satisfying. If I were to guess why, it seems more like a numbers game and that my weapons and towers have no real "impact" to them, even if they do tons of damage or if I am playing Sweet Autumn with her Rocket Launcher. Sanctum is a nice franchise with tons of hidden lore, but I guess it doesn't appeal to me. I mostly prefer the madness of the Orcs Must Die! franchise as killing orcs in a variety of ways is satisfying as they are electrocuted, incinerated, or simply tossed into a pool of lava. Their latest release, Orcs Must Die! Unchained, is free to play, so give it a shot if you like third person shooters (with abilities) combined with tower defense.

Voice chat in games is always somewhat odd to me. While I see it being a feature for more casual players who just pick up and play matches, I see the regulars almost always using some form of external voice chat, such as TeamSpeak. So, if a decent amount of the playerbase are just using an external app, then implementing in-game voice chat may not be worth the effort. If it is possible to implement Voice Chat in any capacity for Renegade X, I would probably restrict it to be Commander Only. Although, even then, I think the Commander mod is a mutator and not part of "vanilla" Renegade X, so we may not see such support.

@SvN91 I agree that solo infiltration is a fun method of playing Renegade X as I also like trying to infiltrate and destroy buildings. However, I believe that solo infiltrators are the main reason why mines exist. Sure, mines also help with vehicle pilots running in after their vehicle is destroyed or mass infantry rushes, but it is the infiltrators that are the main problem. Solo infiltration is a double edged sword. It feels great for the infiltrator pulling it off successfully and the infiltrator's team gets a boost in morale, while those who were infiltrated get frustrated and angry at their own team members. One of the major problems is the mines and if mines are not handled properly, the team can instantly lose a structure to a single player. This is especially the case for Nod because of the Hand of Nod windows and the Air Strip tower on flying maps. So, the first proposal is meant to reduce the losing team's frustration, allowing them a second chance to check their defenses and mines. Solo infiltrating will still be viable, but it either needs to be on a wounded structure or need to be done a second time in order to bring it down. If the team is infiltrated twice and loses a building, they deserve to have lost that building. Also, all it takes for complete destruction is the engineer (or advanced engineer) to bring a friend as all classes have at least 1 Timed C4, and the friend can help cover the explosives if the infiltrators are discovered. Yes, there are cases when the infiltrator is just that good and picks the right moment to blow the building up. Sometimes the team who is infiltrated is too committed to the offensive and lose a building because no one is defending. Sometimes no one listens, have delayed action, or are simply too far away to do anything when people say "Mines!" in chat, making it too late to save a structure. Sometimes the team is not even aware of infiltration due to misplaced mines. Of course, in a perfect game, each team would have a dedicated defender or two patrolling the base to check up on mines and the MCTs. However, as this does not always happen and the fact that defense duty is boring, it is up to the mines to give an indication of infiltration. I believe solo infiltrators are one of the main reasons why the mining system is hotly debated due to the effectiveness of infiltration. * * * * * As an aside for the first proposal, if one still wants the Advanced Engineers to keep some explosive potential while not one-shoting structures, remove the 1 Timed C4 and add 1 Remote C4. Originally it was just straight out removing a Timed C4, which will make their C4 amounts the same as normal Engineers.

I believe grenadiers and flamethrower rushes are viable, so that is why they are unchanged. It's just the support characters can't toss in another Timed C4 on top of the main rush. At any rate, they are but suggestions, and they may not even be good suggestions. Refinements and discussion are always welcome.

Important Note: For this topic, the mining system is as it is in the current iteration of Renegade X - Hotwires and Technicians are the sole miners. For discussion on mining alternatives, such as automatic mining or laser defenses, please use the Mining Thread instead. Edit: Added an additional poll option for favoring an alternative, even though alternatives are not discussed here. This topic is a branch off of the Mining Thread, specifically focusing on how to deal with the vanilla mining system instead of worrying about alternatives. These proposals may revolve around changing other aspects of the game to accommodate for the mining system instead of revamping the system itself. In addition, feel free to mix and match between these ideas to create the best experience possible. Not all of these suggestions are my own, credit goes to whoever originally suggested them. Other ideas and discussion is welcome here, but remember this topic relies on keeping the current mining system instead of replacing it. Proposal 1: Have Advanced Engineers have only 1 Timed C4 instead of 2. Yes, this is a straight out nerf to Infiltrators so no single player can blow up a building from max health. So, in order to destroy a structure, an infiltrator will need to bring a friend or need to solo infiltrate the building twice (maybe three, don't know the exact numbers) in order to destroy it from full health and armor. The reasoning behind this proposal is that solo infiltrators are very powerful in the right hands, being able to take down a building alone. By removing just 1 Timed C4, infiltrators can still do permanent damage to a structure but give the defending team another chance to recover and figure out what went wrong instead of instantly losing a building. This "Second Chance" is what I believe will quell some of the frustration of the current mining system, even though the mines will need to be fixed, the team does not suffer massive losses due to one mining mistake. If it happens twice, then the infiltrator is just that good. Proposal 2: Explosive Redistribution A rebalancing of explosive distribution for infantry, bringing back Grenades to replace some instances of Timed C4. This should help somewhat with early game rushes since not everyone has C4, but may affect infantry versus vehicles negatively. Soldiers - Now have Grenades instead of Timed C4. Shotgunner - Now have Smoke Grenades instead of Timed C4. Grenadier & Flamethrower - No changes. Marksman - No changes? Engineer - No changes. Advanced Engineer - No changes, unless going with Proposal 1 which removes 1 Timed C4. Officers - Now have 2 Grenades instead of Timed C4. Rocket Soldier - No changes. McFarland & Chemical Trooper - Now has a Smoke Grenade and a normal Grenade instead of Timed C4 Deadeye & Black Hand Sniper - No changes? Gunner - No changes. Stealth Black Hand - No changes. Patch - Now has 2 Grenades and a Smoke Grenade instead of Timed C4. Laser Chain Gunner - Now has 2 Grenades and a Smoke Grenade instead of Timed C4. Havoc & Sakura - No changes? Sydney & Raveshaw - No changes. Mobius & Mendoza - No changes. // Alternatively, give them 2 Remote C4 instead of a Timed C4 to help their role with being a Tier 3 Infantry base rusher. Proposal 3: Allow teammates to disarm their team's mines. While this can be abused, the purpose is to allow for misplaced mines to be replaced by proper ones, or disarming mines in a destroyed structure. Whenever a teammate disarms a mine they do not own, a message will show up on the screen like overmining, such as "Sire is disarming near the Refinery!" This should help newbies realize proper mining strategies when they find their mines replaced and explained on where to place them. Abuse should easily be covered by the vote system and local mods, with extreme cases being handled appropriately. Proposal 4: Mine Radar Essentially, have friendly mines appear on the mini-map. If mines are dropping and a door does not have mines, the team can mobilize to defend that building. I'm a fan of the defending team searching through each building to discover which one has actually been infiltrated, so I don't care much for this idea. Proposal 5: Miner's Club Essentially, only "verified" players can mine. If players are not verified, they cannot use mines. Not a fan of this system, how is a new player going to learn if they can't use mines first hand? Proposal 6: Newbie Mining Areas Marks out an area for new players that essentially says "Mine Here!" So, there will be a square just inside of a structure with three marks on the ground for mines. This can be expanded to HoN windows and Strip tower on flying maps, to non-standard locations on other maps.

To quote myself from a month before: The mining system is an essential defense mechanism in Renegade X, with its mechanics carried over from the original C&C Renegade. As Renegade X is based off of the original, it will be extremely difficult to break from the Mining tradition set forth from the base game with all of its pros and cons. The flaws of the current mining system are: 1. Overmining - Whether it be a noob or troll, if there is overmining, chances are the entire base will need to be remined. 2. "False Positive, Max Mines" - This is a big one. Since most players just look at the mine count and shout out "Mines!" to warn of possible infiltration, if all the mines are maxed but a building is infiltrated and dies anyway, there will be some angry players wondering what happened to the mine placement. 3: Over-reliance on Mine Defense - This is just how the game works, but mines are an essential defense mechanism meant to counter infiltrators. If mines are not placed properly, that team can lose the game due to one structure loss, and this extreme fact is why mining is such a debated issue. If mines are properly placed, then everyone is fine and will continue playing, but if mines were misplaced, some players may ragequit because of improper mine management. 4: Proxies for Base Defense Only - While veterans probably accepted this as a fact, some players may want to use proxy mines elsewhere, such as mining a beacon, mining crates, infantry passages, the silo, and so on. 5: Complexity - This is especially the case on flying maps for Nod due to Hand of Nod windows and the Airstrip Tower. While the basic rule may be three a door, with more complex variables players may not know where to allocate their mines, including excess mines. Combined with the fact that mines are essential to base defense, this is another reason why mining is a debated topic. What we want to see fixed seems to be: 1. Newbie Friendly Mining - Due to mining complexity but the essential nature of proper mine placement, these facts meant it difficult for newcomers to understand mining. Sadly, there is no easily accessible tutorial on this matter. There can be a simple video tutorial going through the mine basics until a proper tutorial is implemented into Renegade X. 2: Trolls and Team Hampers - This is inevitable and bound to happen. However, I believe the current mod system as well as the player voting system is sufficient enough for most cases, with the more extreme ones handled by admins and the like. 3: Mining Stress - Again, this comes to the essential nature of proper mines, and if mines are screwed up, players tend to get frustrated. Most suggestions opt for an automated system of some sort, but then complaints may shift to blaming a "broken automated system" and players wishing they could mine themselves so they can mine properly. At its core, Mines are a complex base defense mechanism, managed by players, meant to counter infiltrators. It comes from traditional C&C Renegade, and changing the mining system will no doubt bother purists of the original. The problem is the essential nature of mines and if they are used improperly, games can be lost. So, we want to find a solution that makes mines easier to use or make them less essential to the overall match. At any rate, I highly suggest resetting the poll and making new options so we can have another round of opinions. I am fine with the mining system as it is and realize that any changes to the mining system will have far reaching consequences due to how essential mines are to defense, but am willing to experiment with new ideas. To be honest though, this discussion seems to be going in circles and not getting anywhere, with players just repeating the same things over and over every so often. There needs to be a specialized topic, such as improving the existing system or refining one of the ideas for possible use in Renegade X, with all the nuances and little details accounted for. * * * * * Random thought, but how about we keep the mining system as is, but add a laser defense system to flying versions of the Hand of Nod windows and the Airstrip Tower, perhaps turning off when the Power Plant is destroyed.. Yes, this is a nerf to GDI infiltrators, but it should help a little bit with Nod base defense and the whole mining thing. Nod already has some special stuff that doesn't fit with the rest of the game (Stealth Infantry and Tanks), and have a history with laser technology, so why not use that?

Just to update my opinions on the discussions... 1. Laser Doors & Windows - It will be a little different, but I'll be up for it. I guess Lasers will do universal damage, but are they a hard blocker that needs to be disabled or a soft one that can be tanked through with a high HP character? - However, like always, I would like Hotwires & Techs to keep proxy mines, but at a personal limit, like AT Mines. Proxies can be placed anywhere, and if they want to use their limited mines to fortify a structure door, let them do so. Mines still have plenty of counters. 2. Pre-Placed Mines [Sire's Pick] - Similar to the Laser Doors & Windows, but with more explosions and mimicking the original mining style, but automated and streamlined. - Personally, out of the current suggestions, I like pre-placed the most if the current system is to be replaced. It still has the feeling of Renegade with mined structures and their counters (Repair Gun, Repair Tool, EMP, Free Infantry Suicides) while hopefully being a more newbie friendly process to understand. - However, like always, I would like Hotwires & Techs to keep proxy mines, but at a personal limit, like AT Mines. Proxies can be placed anywhere, and if they want to use their limited mines to fortify a structure door, let them do so. Mines still have plenty of counters. 3. Current System (Hotwire & Tech Miners) - I still believe this is more of a communication and education issue, but it seems this route is not worth the effort for veteran players, instead opting for a replacement to the mining system. - I am still content with the system, even when I suffer losses to improper mining (full mines but a structure is infiltrated and dies anyway). However, as I do not play regularly, I do not have as much built up rage at this compared to others and am simply content to continue playing the match or move to the next one. 4: Mine Radar - I am somewhat against this idea. I rather have the team pay attention to the mine counter, say "Mines!", and the defenders clear out each structure to see if a building has been infiltrated, shouting out clear buildings or indicating one in need of repair. Yes, infiltrators can change the game, but if spotted they are normally easy to deal with.

I say Renegade X has a decent player base, but only when playing during prime time (which mostly revolves around the EU playerbase). Otherwise, all the servers are likely empty. Most days between 12 PM to 4 PM US East there's one healthy populated server. If you are lucky, you might catch a good game or two late as 5 or 6 PM. However, if you want to play 7 PM or later, good luck. I know there are some US players, but most just play during prime time and log off once EU goes to sleep. Your best bet is on a Saturday where there are about two servers up. One is "private" through the organized games here on the forum while the other is the public server. Same time of 12 to 4 PM. Here's some older topics that may be of some help to you. Otherwise, enjoy playing Renegade X! Just remember that X is not exactly like the original C&C Renegade, so be prepared for new maps and mechanics when you play. August Topic - Does anyone in the US even play? October Topic - Active Hours?

Now I'm starting to see a Star Wars Battlefront version of C&C where GDI assaults NOD at their secret Arctic base with their Mammoth MK IIs. Banshees can replace the Snowspeeders, zooming around and bombing targets with its plasma cannons. Then you have a gunfight between the Ghoststalker and the Cyborg Commando. (Yes, I know, I'm really late on all this.) * * * * * I always thought about a TS gamemode, but a part of me wants to tie in TS Technology through the Tech Center. So, GDI has its Advanced Communication Center while Nod has its Temple. While they are operational, TS Technology is available for that faction and if destroyed that side loses the TS Technology. Then of course one will want to add in the infantry and other air vehicles instead of just having the tanks. While I would love the see Tiberian Sun for Renegade X, I don't see it happening in the near future. Then there is already a standalone game that does Tiberian Sun Renegade called Tiberian Sun Reborn, so making it on Renegade X may be considered redundant. Also, I am unsure how balanced current TS Vehicles are compared to the current vehicles as they are normally obtained from crates. I know on Fort TS vehicles seem a little expensive and seem to be more for the novelty than actual effectiveness for its cost.

I'll take the destroyed Refinery giving +1 credits per second. I find the main purpose of the Refinery is to obtain a burst of credits when the Harvester unloads. Passive income can be tied into the game mechanics and allow low to average skilled players a chance to buy something and still have some fun instead of running around as a Free Infantry all day. Sure, having lower income will increase the skill ceiling and make purchases more valuable, but I'm willing to vote for easier passive income as it eases the burden of a destroyed Refinery. We already have "partial availability" to Infantry and and Vehicle structures, so why not the Refinery with credit ticks?

I still believe the current mining system is fine and it boils down to two issues. First, educating new players on the complexities of the mining system. Second, no one really wants to defend the base as guard duty sucks. I am also trying to look at the mining problem from a perspective of a newcomer and not a veteran, so my suggestions were trying to be more newbie friendly. As it has been stated several times, while basic mine tactics are perhaps three a door, advanced mining takes in account HON windows, Strip Tower, Barracks Door vs Sandbags, tunnel locations, and so on. This is a lot to take in and won't be learned immediately, but if a player continues putting effort into the game, they should pick up on it in time. Not all games have an easy learning curve, and while easy to learn, hard to master is perhaps the goal for most games, some games are just complex and players will need to adapt or play something else. Secondly, if there are a lot of players out in the field, it is easy for in infiltrator to sneak into the base and blow it up. Even in RTS C&C, if there are no defending units or base defenses, an Engineer or Commando can waltz right in and cause havoc. Then there is the threat of SBHs for GDI, and while there may be a player or two patrolling around in an APC or Humvee, it is probably seen as a dull job despite how important it can be. A dedicated defender calling out when the base is under attack can do wonders, especially when the team is responsive to the callout. Should they ignore the threat, perhaps the team deserved to lose the structure. If the team is mostly tied up elsewhere and can't respond in time, then congratulations on the Infiltrator for choosing the right time to sneak in. I voted to keep the mining system as is, but allow players to disarm all mines. When a player disarms a mine that is not theirs, a warning is put out in chat ("Sire is disarming near the Refinery!") so players can take appropriate action if needed. Allowing players to disarm all mines can be useful when disarming a destroyed building to fortify other positions. This, combined with mine banning and proper education in the way of mining, should be sufficient. Yes, allowing all players to disarm allows for trolling and team hampering, but this should be moderated and contained by the players unless it gets out of hand. As for the poll options, I still want Proxy Mines for Hotwires / Techs at a personal cap if the current system is changed. Purchasable mines may work and remedy late-game credit overflow, but it relies more on the overall team defending instead of a one or two. Designated mining areas can show players "Place a mine within this box wherever the X is" or something to help newcomers (perhaps have it as a separate overlay that can be toggled off for veterans?), although a dedicated tutorial can also accomplish this. Door Defense is a little bit too broad a topic, will it be blast doors, laser grids, auto mines, or something else entirely? Each idea has its pros and cons. Off-Topic, but when something important happens (such as a vote for surrender, map change, overmining, etc.), can we get an "Incoming Transmission" voice clip? It may make players notice in-game polls more and vote in them instead of wondering what happened after their team surrendered.

Personal Preferences: - Infantry wise, I tend to run Hotwire/Tech or Gunner/Laser Chaingunner. -- On occasion I may run Mendoza/Mobius or Raveshaw/Sydney - For vehicles, I tend to use APC a lot as a combat vehicle (instead of APC rushes and the like). - Will follow orders if there is a leader on the team (Rushes, Defense, etc.) -- Tends not to be a leader in organizing rushes, but will give out information (scouting, enemy rushes, base defense, etc.) --- This is normally through text as I do not join Teamspeak or other communication programs during normal games. I have not played a PUG match. - Likes using the mini-map and main map, especially on unfamiliar terrain. - Cannot aim, so I tend to focus on anti-vehicle, anti-structure, or repair support. - When a Surrender vote is active, will vote Surrender if the match is going south and my team is disorganized, unless there is a good game going on despite our losses. I rather have close, fun matches than a drawn out game where my team will eventually lose. Sure, there are cases where there is a comeback (which are awesome moments), but more often then not the winning team devolves to farming instead of finishing the losing team off. Strategy: - I tend toward a suicidal strategy, rushing in with cheap units or constant harass when soloing. The belief is that through this, someone else may find an opening and accomplish something. -- This also leads for infiltrating as Hotwire/Tech or other units, but I am not a pro at it. -- Also counts being Gunner poking at Nod structures. - I can also defend by running an auto shop, but defense duty sucks and is boring despite how important it is. (Watching Planetside 2's mini-map with scout radar is more engaging than Ren X defense duty.) - On Field, if Nod, I like being Mendoza poking at GDI Bar. - On Islands, if Nod, I like being a LCG and EMPing GDI Bar. - On Arctic Stronghold, if Nod, I like being a LCG and holding down the EMP Bridges. Seriously, some of the better matches I played is when there is a leader around to prod the masses in a general direction. It gets even better when there is an opposing commander, so in addition to organizing our rushes, we need to deal with enemy rushes as well.

When I used to play Old Ren, I played on a server that gave Engineers Shotguns and Hotwires/Techs Chainguns. The days of laying down five mines a door instead of three, or placing mines on walls and above doorways, hell, even placing mines on front of an APC! Fun times. Anyways, Ren-X's version is fine as is without other weapons (I'm fine with the Heavy Pistol). They are meant to be a support class with the repair gun, with some explosive utility that can be used for offense or defense. Remote C4s can also be used defensively, but it requires a little more attention to use properly. Like I have stated before, I'm fine with the current system, believing that educating players is the better way to go instead of revamping everything. While mining has changed somewhat from the original Renegade (more powerful mines, can't toss them anymore), the system is still familiar to old-time players who may be getting into Renegade X. However, I am open to trying out the purchasable mines method if it is ever implemented, as it may change the overall game for the better.

Welp, I'm beat. I got really nothing else to add to the discussion. Maybe I haven't played much Renegade X as I need to, but I see overmining and inexperienced mining as more of a minor annoyance instead of something that requires full on attention. I believe educating new players in the complexities of the system is still a valid way to resolve some issues, even if it is still newcomer unfriendly. Most of the scenarios @CampinJeff will require an in-depth mining tutorial, and while perhaps extremely helpful for an overall match, is not something newcomers should understand immediately so they can just play the game and have fun. Newcomers should be content mining the doors most of the time, veterans can pick up the slack and place mines in the more "advanced" locations. Yes, it is probably tiring educating the new guy every couple matches, especially if that new guy happens to accidentally throw away the game. Teach the player and move on to the next match. There is no such thing as a "perfect match every match", as memorable matches are spread out between the regular ones. As for purchasable mines, it sounds all right (expanded early game, credit sink late game, less reliance on Bar & HON), although if Hotwires and Techs do end up losing mines without a replacement I won't be too happy, but it if the concept works as a mutator or is incorporated into the game proper, then I guess I have no choice but to deal with it. While I like the turret idea on paper, for some reason it doesn't strike me as something that sounds like Renegade. Then again, Sprinting wasn't in the original Renegade, so maybe something like turrets can work. I'm still not too convinced on turrets though, but I'll leave that discussion to the others.

@CampinJeff Okay, so purchasable mines... One Time Use // Anyone can purchase them // Mines are removed from Hotwires and Technicians // Mines are limited solely by Credits // Mines can still be bought when Bar or Hon are destroyed // Alerts are by player observation or an infiltrator alarm system // EMPs remain as is I still have several points of contention in an attempt to refine the idea... 1: EMPs can be considered "free", even though they require a player to be a certain class. Through throwing repeated EMPs and retreating to refill, that player can drain the minelayer's funds. This is especially the case if the price of mines continue to rise throughout the game. (Think Islands, LCG tossing EMPs at Bar constantly. Perhaps GDI lost its refinery too, so theoretically it'll be a matter of time before the GDI minelayer goes broke. This may or may not be a good thing.) 1a: This can also be done by free infantry rushing to blow up the mines, or simply Mines being disarmed in general by repair guns. I suppose mines become more of a cash sink late game while also attempting to be a proper defensive mechanics. Perhaps draining a player's funds will become a valid tactic? Of course, multiple rushes will eventually get noticed and that area defended, but the point may still stand. Do we want mines to make players go broke and be unable to buy anything? This can matter as the matches drag on, making mines more of a luxury instead of a regular method of defense. ("Why buy 3 mines when I can get a powerful vehicle or infantry instead?") In the current system, a dedicated miner could donate excess funds to his/her team, perhaps helping organized rushes and the like. In the new system, dedicated miners would probably run out of money a lot, requiring the team to carry the slack or donate to the miner. ----- 2: How will early game mining be done? With the current system, a player or two can run a Hottie/Tech and mine the entire base, whereas the new system will require a lot more investment to mine the base. Will players simply need to adapt to this new system? This will make early game rushes and infiltrations even more effective if there are no real mines around to counter them. Do we want to extend early game a little more before investing into more powerful vehicles and infantry? Also, if games end too early or a structure is lost early game, players on the losing side tend to lose morale and may opt to simply surrender to get a better game going, unless the current match is a fun one. ----- 3: Hotwires and Technicians. This is more of a personal contention as I like running a Hotwire or Technician and don't particularly like a core component of the class stripped away without some replacement. 3a: They get to keep their Proxy Mines, but these have a personal deploy cap of 6 and are considered separate compared to the purchasable variant. This is what I would prefer. (They can fortify certain positions and the like and are slightly resistant to EMP grenades as they can refill and replace. Killing the Hotwire / Tech will disarm their personal mines.) 3b: Proxy mines are replaced by Anti-Tank mines. 3c: Proxy mines are gone anyway and these classes have to be happy with repairing or infiltrating instead of full defense duty. I could suggest giving them more C4 or something equally crazy, such as giving them a better weapon, but I like the class to still remain somewhat defensive in nature while keeping open the infiltration possibilities. * * * * * As for mining tutorials, at it's core mining is relatively simple (just mine inside the doors). The hard part comes in flying maps and one has to be aware of all of these, especially if one is on Nod (HoN Windows, Strip Tower). I would simply say to cover the basics and leave the more advanced stuff for a more in-depth tutorial. I still think Loading Screen Tips could help out newer players, even if the tips are random. I don't think a first time newcomer will normally go straight for mines and full defense duty...

Not so keen on the turrets, but for purchasable mines may be a good idea. So, if mines hypothetically can be bought from the Purchase Terminal... 1: Are these mines refillable or one time use? 2: Who can buy the mines? Anybody, or just Hotwires/Techs & Engineers? 3: What happens to Hotwire & Technician mines? 4: What sort of limit is there for purchasable mines? Credits only? 5: Are mines still purchasable if the Barracks or Hand of Nod are destroyed? 6: How will players be alerted if the mine count is dropping? 7: How will the balance of EMP Grenades versus Mines be affected? * * * * * Honestly, the problem with the current system is inexperienced miners and perhaps the occasional troll. Those without experience may accidently overmine or misplace mines because they don't know where to properly put them, leading to false positives. "Okay, we got full mines, how the hell did we lose a building?!" A good tutorial would help matters, but even some loading screen tips could educate players. Things such as... 1: "Beware of overmining! There is a mine limit per map, and any new mines placed will overwrite the old ones!" 2: "Anti-Tank mines do not count toward the mine limit, but are disarmed upon your death." 3: "When putting down mines, try placing three per door. Place them just inside so they can't be easily disarmed." 4: "Remember to disarm mines in destroyed structures! Those mines can be placed in better locations." Trolls and team hampers can be argued to be part of any multiplayer game, and must be dealt with appropriately. While there may be ways to lessen their impact, they will still find a way to screw something up. Personally I'm fine with the current system since I go on mine duty every now and then, but if it can somehow be improved for the better, go for it.

Just throwing my random musing in here. (Man, I dislike the double spacing it does. I want my single spacing back!) Current System: Hotwires and Technicians are the sole miners, requiring a Barracks or a Hand of Nod to purchase. Mines are refillable but have a team limit on the number placed. (Problems: Overmining or mining in the wrong locations can throw away the entire game.) Proposal 1: Add a personal cap for mines. (Problems: Requires more team members to mine instead of one or two mining everything.) Proposal 2: Add purchasable, disposal mines. (Problem: How will they be limited? Player caps, solely on credits, team cap?) Proposal 3: Preplaced Mines ("Mining Areas"). The MCT of a structure controls mine placement and paying credits will automatically lay down the mines. (Problems: No longer allows proxy mines elsewhere, just in the predesignated locations. Also, does destroying the Barracks and HON deny preplaced mines?) * * * * * Sire's Proposal: Preplaced Mines + Disposal Mines 1: The MCT controls mine placement for that structure. Visit the MCT, pay a credit amount, and the building will automatically be mined. 1a: The UI may show a building's mine count instead of overall count. 1b: Payment is done per mine. If all the mines are gone, the cost will be higher than if just one mine is missing. (50 credits a mine? Aprox ~300 credits a building?) 1c: Subject to balance and testing - If the Barracks or HON is destroyed, disables MCT mine placement or increases the price of mines. Alternatively, have the Power Plant adjust mine costs when it is destroyed, allowing for MCT mines even with the BAR and HON gone. 2: Hotwires and Technicians still have access to Proxy Mines, but they now function like Anti-Tank mines or Remote C4. Meaning, there is a personal cap as that class on how many can be deployed, even though they can still be refilled from a Purchase Terminal. 2a: Dying as a Hotwire or Technician will start deactivation of your mines, similar to a rate of an Engineer's Repair Gun. (This is to allow a last second "after death" kill or a few seconds on a mined beacon. I think AT mines should also have this functionality instead of disappearing immediately.) Pros: Overming and Inexperienced miners are no longer an issue as the important mines are pre-placed and simply need to be purchased. // Hotwires and Technicians can still use Proxy Mines to fortify or mine other locations, at a personal cap. Cons: Will likely require a good amount of coding to implement. Preferably it is done within the ground and air versions of a building and tied to a structure instead of having to be done on a per-map basis. // Placing excess team mines in as structure when one is losing will probably be no longer possible. // Mining the base is considerably more expensive than before. (350 Hottie/Tech can mine a full base, whereas the cost here for MCT mines raises per structure.)

I think a Flame Trooper or Chem Trooper rush is to be expected on some maps early game. They are countered with some decent defense, but what I see is normally a bunch of players charge at each other and the match plays out. Just backpedal and attack from range, aiming for headshots, unless you want to try Shotgunning them in the face. Honestly, while these rushes may be a surprise to newer players, I think once some veteran are on a team they know how to easily counter it. The easiest counter is have a dedicated defender sit in base a little bit and get an Officer, and then that Officer just guns everyone down. This work well on Islands where two officers can cover the tunnels, and the main entrance is easily observed. I feel that the units are more or less fine as they are, and it's more of an issue of players learning how to properly counter them.

I agree with EKT-Kaiser. The fact that Flame Troopers have extra movement speed makes it my go-to free unit for Nod (and I like flamethrowers anyway). I would give the GDI Grenadier that same 105 move speed to balance it out somewhat. Besides, Grenadiers moved faster than normal infantry in the original C&C game, right?

I like APCs as they currently are. However, I am up for changing up the Humvee and Buggy to be more specialized against infantry. This way Humvees and Buggys may get more usage outside of initial rushes and the occasional flaming vehicle. I like to think APCs is the "general purpose, vehicle machine gun", while the lighter scouts are like "Vehicle Officers", if that makes sense. So, APC = Laser Chain Gunner while Buggy / Humvee = Officer.