Beta 4 Preliminary Changelist

[Bananas]

The damage against heavy vehicles and the spread are more WIP changes that we'd like to see tested. We're testing Beta 4 more than any other beta since Beta 1. If we find that EKT and Matrix don't like those changes, I have no problem with removing them.

I appreciate that these changes aren't set in stone. Hopefully the testers can give you some great feedback.

Ramjet spread doesn't mean you won't be able to shoot from the hip - it just means that you won't be able to do it from halfway across the map

We never said hip fire spread makes it impossible to use in CQB. Its subtle to the point where it can still be used for mid ranged engagements but will not always be smart to do that at mid to long ranges

Then what is the spread for? Why are you forcing people to use the scope at mid to long ranges. Some people prefer scoping and find it easier. Others shoot from the hip. This doesn't seem like it will even really nerf snipers much. It feels like just adding something unnecessary that will annoy certain players. Am I really going to be forced to quick scope?

I understand that snipers can be dominant. I would even be open to discussing nerfs or changes, but spread is NOT the way to go.

In RenX, there are more anti-aircraft options

There are plenty of ways to damage aircraft as close to medium range. The ramjet filled a role of being able to cripple them at long range. I don't see what we will shoot aircraft with when they are flying near the massive sky ceiling in walls. Please don't say rocket soldier. Rocket soldier is only good for annoying aircraft with beeping sounds and the weird knockback effect it has on impact.

base-infiltration commando tactics

I agree that this is a cool idea...but you are trying to mold a sniper into an all around bad ass. It seems like you want a class capable of doing everything at a meh level. Honestly, wouldn't it be easier to just add another character for this? You can even call him General Fooby.

You said it your self this is an arcade game

It is kind of weird to see some of the changes in RenX even though it is supposed to be arcadey. Like jumping. Why can I not jump as much as I want? Jumping is fun. If I want to jump I shouldn't get slowed down. Let me hop like a bunny while I fight. Maybe my character is just really happy to be fighting.

[RoundShades]

I am just saying, I don't personally like the specific changes to:

-the ramjet x2 c4 in exchange for 1 hit kill damage

-the snipers getting spread

-light armor damage reduction from snipers

-jumping mobility nerfs

However, I don't expect them to be massive. If they are, they will get told to adjust it back a lot, and Totem has been GOOD about feedback like this. Honestly, I would rather 1k snipers get a faster fire rate per clip in trade for their 1 hit capability, and I think they should keep light armor damage or at least the reduction be less than 20% less damage.

The 2 timed c4 sounds cool. I am convinced it needs to be an "items purchaseable", to replace 1 timed c4 with 2 timed c4, and would even make "engineers" able to do what "technicians" do. I am just not convinced that is the direction havok/sakura needs to go.

The changes are entirely cool and I am very strongly in favor of seeing these changes in game. They will not ruin the game, they will be a worthwhile effort in gameplay mechanic experimentation. Because old Ren need new mechanics brought into RenX, we just need the right ones. And personally, I think emp nades disarming mines and smoke nades aiding rushes increases the tensity of rushes and sieges. Emp nades by themselves just jammed every rush, but smoke grenades may make rushes jammed extended gunfights in bases.

[SirPanfried]

My prayers have been answered! Finally you're not insta-boned for getting within line-of-sight of ramjets as a free class! And to those who are whining about it we will have to see how strong or weak the nerf really is, but a nerf was most definitely appropriate. An instant kill, instant hit, 100% accuracy weapon is just plain overpowered. There is no skill cap and thus no counterplay, making it pointless to even fight it lest you feed them more kills. I understand since Renegade x has RTS elements and therefore some units will be better than others. But it came down to free classes and low/mid classes getting fucked in the ass automatically with zero chance for rebuttal. You could be outplaying a ramjet at close range, work them down to their last 30hp and *PPTHPT*. You died instantly. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. This is assuming you were even able to get close enough to them without getting blown away. Besides, I'm assuming the first shot is 100% accurate and spread only occurs when you spam. So tap them with one ramjet shot and finish them off with the sidearm of your choice. Due to your HP and armor values you'll still be advantaged but you shouldn't have a 100% victory chance. Now time will tell what this does to ramjets and we can't cry that the sky is falling until we play it.

As far as EMPs jamming mines, I'm on the fence. I feel that there's almost no infantry gameplay and one of the reasons is gratuitous mines. Having such a tool in your arsenal both validates the emp mine itself and the infantry that use it. In a thread i posted long ago I had gripes about the current state of the game. Basically if you're not an engineer, hotwire/tech, ramjet, or in a vehicle, you're worthless because you can't do anything outside of your own base. You'll be blown away by vehicles ,blasted sky high by mines, or perforated by ramjets in the tunnels. And people started wagging their finger saying "you can't do it all by yourself, you silly potato!" even though the above characters can deal with most of situations they encounter in their class role. EMP and smoke grenades might give non-engineer classes that little edge and actually give a reason to be fighting in tunnels other than having a fat KDR. And like the devs said, you're giving up C4 for it, so bring friends. On top of that you're only getting past one wall of mines. Get past the mined tunnel? Who says the building isn't mined? (SPOILER ALERT: it is) Not to mention if there's a AGT or OOL to smite you. Which is why there are now smoke grenades. both these grenades may give non-engineer the ability to deal with these issues, but each individual can only deal with one issue by themselves in addition to their inherent character role. On top of that you can just save yourself the 300 credits and find a engie buddy to bust the mines for you. And again like the above, we will know how exploitable these are in the future(SBHs?). Time will tell. I welcome the update with open arms and we'll see if these fix what are in my eyes some balance issues. But keep up the good work fellas and I look forward to playing more once my computer is less of a potato.

[SFJake]

My prayers have been answered! Finally you're not insta-boned for getting within line-of-sight of ramjets as a free class! And to those who are whining about it we will have to see how strong or weak the nerf really is, but a nerf was most definitely appropriate. An instant kill, instant hit, 100% accuracy weapon is just plain overpowered.

I don't think a single person in this topic was against the ramjet damage nerf to infantry. Thats the core nerf that most people seem to have wanted. Not everyone is in agreement with the exact damage nerf but thats another thing. The other changes about the ramjet is what created the reaction.

The ramjet against free classes was definitely unfun to play against and too powerful.

The damage nerf to 150 also means 1000$ classes take 3 body shots to kill. Thats fine by me, though. Without the other changes, it would make the class a proper sniper & anti-light vehicle thats actually vulnerable. A sniper king of close range and king of one-shotting free classes is just too annoying.

Plus you can still pull off clutch headshots and kill anything in one shot.

[nBab]

There's a lot of good changes and updates. can't wait to play Beta 4. good job and keep it up

This is just my opinion about some of the changes:

- Sniper (Havoc/Sakura):

-- Damage reduction to infantry: I think everyone agrees on the need to reduce the damage to below 200 so free infantry doesn't die in one shot.

-- Extra C4: why?!! why should a long range sniper infiltrate bases? it doesn't make sense. yes, i've read the arguments in favor of it but it still doesn't make sense. it's like we could use a new commando class (with more c4 and silenced weapons and maybe temp stealth) instead of changing the sniper class into something else.

-- Hip-fire spread: i suck at aiming with snipers and get sniped a lot by good players, but this feels like you're punishing people with good aim. if you want to give a penalty for hip-firing, you could make the bullet trail/sound visible when hip-firing but reduce it when using the scope so players are encouraged to use the scope without punishing good players.

-- More damage to heavy armor: again why?!! snipers are not supposed to deal damage to heavy armor. let alone finish them from far distances... even if the damage is low, there's not a single reason for it.

-- Less damage to light vehicles: snipers are the only counter to light and specially air vehicles right now. if you want to do this you need to find a replacement. either really buff the damage and projectile speed of the rocket soldier so it can actually counter vehicles and not be useless. and/or make the repair speed of air vehicles really slow. as it is now it's almost impossible to kill an orca/apache with a good tech inside cause they just land and repair and repeat. the same goes for arty/mrls with engies repairing them. we need to have a counter for them before nerfing the sniper damage.

- EMPs disabling mines:

SBH is already too powerful. this will make them even more powerful so i'm against it, or it needs to be really nerfed.

- Suggestions:

-- Flashing mine counter when mines blow up: as someone mentioned before this will make defending a bit easier and specially since now the remote c4 doesn't count towards the mine limit, it will be more useful. just make the mine counter flash in red / get bold everytime a mine disappears.

-- (off-topic) Allow destroyed buildings to be repaired: i know this is a huge change and will not make it in this or few next betas. but it will prevent the players leaving when one of their buildings get destroyed and will give a hope of comeback to that team. you can either require a huge repair with repair gun (like 50 times the building health) to rebuild it or scatter (or put in crates) resources like steal, wood, etc. in map so players can collect them and when they have a required amount the building gets rebuilt.

Still this is just based on me reading the changes. maybe in action they will be different.

[RoundShades]

And like the devs said, you're giving up C4 for it, so bring friends. On top of that you're only getting past one wall of mines. Get past the mined tunnel? Who says the building isn't mined? (SPOILER ALERT: it is) Not to mention if there's a AGT or OOL to smite you. Which is why there are now smoke grenades.

This is what the excitement should be about. Imagine on field, a GDI McFarland Squad can EMP NADE the mines by the air and SMOKE NADE the path to the air. Technically, it would be easier to do to the nod ref side given the distance from tunnel to door.

Besides prepping a rush by getting out your tanks and tossing smoke at the nod entrance before rushing in, they can EMP your tanks once you start rushing which holds your tanks despite them being hidden from the base defense. Those rushes will be so much more interesting.

Again, as far as "unit role flexibility", it turns out "repair", "sniping", and "vehicles" are usually the most powerful. That's why I think these mechanics add power to infantry infiltration. I also think secondary weapons that are low class snipers and low class repairguns would help, as a chaingun with a marksman rifle becomes a lot more viable. That is just considering adding the FREE weapons to SECONDARY via 175 PURCHASE.

"nBab": listed these changes and opinions:

- Sniper (Havoc/Sakura):

-- Damage reduction to infantry: I think everyone agrees on the need to reduce the damage to below 200 so free infantry doesn't die in one shot. agreed

-- Extra C4: why?!! why should a long range sniper infiltrate bases? it doesn't make sense. yes, i've read the arguments in favor of it but it still doesn't make sense. it's like we could use a new commando class (with more c4 and silenced weapons and maybe temp stealth) instead of changing the sniper class into something else. also agreed. it doesn't fit how you usually use ramjet characters

-- Hip-fire spread: i suck at aiming with snipers and get sniped a lot by good players, but this feels like you're punishing people with good aim. if you want to give a penalty for hip-firing, you could make the bullet trail/sound visible when hip-firing but reduce it when using the scope so players are encouraged to use the scope without punishing good players.this is a doublenerf to losing instakill, so I might rather this not be added as well until we see how much the nerf affects

-- More damage to heavy armor: again why?!! snipers are not supposed to deal damage to heavy armor. let alone finish them from far distances... even if the damage is low, there's not a single reason for it.this is a good "buff" to counter losing 1 hit kill, and they are in the field usually so if a low health tank gets by they can take it down if below 100 but will not do significant damage if above 100. The damage can be repaired faster, but its a contributable amount. Good buff to counter removing 1 hit kills

-- Less damage to light vehicles: snipers are the only counter to light and specially air vehicles right now. if you want to do this you need to find a replacement. either really buff the damage and projectile speed of the rocket soldier so it can actually counter vehicles and not be useless. and/or make the repair speed of air vehicles really slow. as it is now it's almost impossible to kill an orca/apache with a good tech inside cause they just land and repair and repeat. the same goes for arty/mrls with engies repairing them. we need to have a counter for them before nerfing the sniper damage. I am more on the fence about this as well. If it is no longer a "powerful" amount, and by that I mean the 500 sniper's damage is honestly decent as well as the marksman, then the airgame really does lose one of it's only hardest counters. We will have to go back to Call of Duty logic and "everyone spray autorifle fire up into the air"

- EMPs disabling mines:

SBH is already too powerful. this will make them even more powerful so i'm against it, or it needs to be really nerfed.I honestly think this buffs GDI more than NOD tbh, but it does depend on who has the tunnels. Tbh, it makes the tunnels more important, despite the team. If at least 1 person is watching the tunnel entrance, they can waste the SBH that emps the mines, and someone always remines them.

- Suggestions:

-- Flashing mine counter when mines blow up: as someone mentioned before this will make defending a bit easier and specially since now the remote c4 doesn't count towards the mine limit, it will be more useful. just make the mine counter flash in red / get bold everytime a mine disappears.I like this. Maybe the game enters text alert into chat, like an auto quickchat "q" warning. "proxy mine alert at war factory" only when one is triggered or disarmed by an enemy and not by a teammate or mid-disarm (because that would be alerted too fast and be too spammy)

-- (off-topic) Allow destroyed buildings to be repaired: i know this is a huge change and will not make it in this or few next betas. but it will prevent the players leaving when one of their buildings get destroyed and will give a hope of comeback to that team. you can either require a huge repair with repair gun (like 50 times the building health) to rebuild it or scatter (or put in crates) resources like steal, wood, etc. in map so players can collect them and when they have a required amount the building gets rebuilt.This is being considered, but it likely won't be a rebuild because that is too powerful and offers no punishment. It will likely be a mechanic of some heavy cost, to restore reduced function like more costly characters and cooldowns on purchases. At least you CAN buy a character instead of free-till-game-end, even if it is only once every 4 minutes...

[epicelite]

Fobby[GEN]":2vd0uel3]As for EMP, we like the idea of having it damage mines over time. This would mean that it would take 10 seconds to disarm a group of mines - a defending team would certainly notice its effect. Remember that the EMP is a C4-replacement, which means that SBHs would need a few friends before destroying a building. The idea behind this would be to effect mine-clusters. When the entire mine limit is being used to defend one building, it's OP. Again though, the EMP changes will be tested and potentially removed if it is not well-received. We are throwing around other ideas as well.

SBH rarely do building infiltration, 90% of the time its plating nukes so all they would do is toss EMP, run away and cloak. Wait till shit settle down and run into base to do their nuking.

[Goku]

Fobby[GEN]":2rqmtcn7]As for EMP, we like the idea of having it damage mines over time. This would mean that it would take 10 seconds to disarm a group of mines - a defending team would certainly notice its effect. Remember that the EMP is a C4-replacement, which means that SBHs would need a few friends before destroying a building. The idea behind this would be to effect mine-clusters. When the entire mine limit is being used to defend one building, it's OP. Again though, the EMP changes will be tested and potentially removed if it is not well-received. We are throwing around other ideas as well.

SBH rarely do building infiltration, 90% of the time its plating nukes so all they would do is toss EMP, run away and cloak. Wait till shit settle down and run into base to do their nuking.

False.

SBH on my server move it packs of 3 and take a few mine hits each to get in a building.

[yosh56]

SBH rarely do building infiltration, 90% of the time its plating nukes so all they would do is toss EMP, run away and cloak. Wait till shit settle down and run into base to do their nuking.

...Umm, you're assuming a lot there.

A) Infiltration happens a lot, and it's far stronger than nuking.

B) You're assuming GDI has the front of the base mined, in which case somebody should be watching it anyway, nullifying the concern entirely if an SBH does throw an EMP and Decloak.

-- Flashing mine counter when mines blow up:

So shall we just nix infiltration as a tactic altogether? Dedicated defenders don't need that much more aid. Hell, the building statuses going red on screen all the time were bad enough, let defenders have to. Have some form of awareness; it's already the easiest, if not most thankless, job in-game.

[Glacious]

I have to say I really do like alot of the changes being implemented into Beta 4 but I would like to echo the above views/confusion over the Havoc/Sakura class.

To me its quite an odd change to make, I know this is a team game as well as most of the avid fans of Renegade but we do get alot of new players to the scene and old at times who think they can solo destroy buildings with infantry and whilst this is possible it is also good fun and a challenge hence why so often you see a large bulk of the NOD team using Stealth Blackhands with beacons and Hotwires trying to sneak in as they can solo take down a building if done correctly, yet the Havoc/Sakura even with 2 timed C4's can't do this. I would have thought if the aim was for this to be a commando unit your better off giving them the ability to finish off a building completely?? I just can't see the unit being used in the way that you hope as if your wanting to infiltrate the enemy base I would still choose a hotwire with upgraded weapons which is a better use than a Sniper who can sneak in to the enemy base just to damage a building but not destroy one.

I guess what I am trying to say is I would have thought you should either go completely one way or another either make the Havoc/Sakura a lethal Sniping machine or a full on commando with ability to take down a building. As it is it seems more of a middle ground half and half unit which again I don't recon with be used the way its intended.

I will happily be proven wrong but thats just my personal view.

[SirPanfried]

So shall we just nix infiltration as a tactic altogether? Dedicated defenders don't need that much more aid. Hell, the building statuses going red on screen all the time were bad enough, let defenders have to. Have some form of awareness; it's already the easiest, if not most thankless, job in-game.

Basically this, and again stressing the need for actual infantry battles instead of the exclusive "World of tanks" state the game is currently in. Hopefully attackers being able to push through defenses will mean more infantry fights besides tunnels and will further validate footsoldiers patrolling their own base. I also think it would further justify the non-engineer free classes even more than just being expendable tunnel fodder. If you've got no credits/barracks/hand of nod is down, just grab a shotgunner, soldier, or special, and keep your eyes peeled. SBHes might think twice about cheesing if it means they'll be blunderbussed away, wasting credits. Mines not only hamper offensive infantry play but also make defensive infantry useless because infantry almost never reach the base.

[Ap2000]

I didn't read every single post on the past 5 pages Now I did!, but am I seeing this correctly that the buyable snipers (specifically Sakura and Havoc) are not getting a damage nerf (which is immensly needed), but weapon spread (which seems weird)?

Or maybe I am just misunderstanding the terminology, since I am not fully aware of all the weapon names and stuff. Sorry about that.

Great changes to the 1000 credits snipers! I FULLY agree with making less damage. And the hip fire randomization at long distances seems like a very good thing too.

(Camping) snipers were already a very big problem in the original, so something must be done against them. Back then admins just limited their amount or ran non-sniper servers.

Of course a no-Havoc/Sakura server-side option would be the best thing, but them one hit KO'ing Patches etc. is just laughable (yes, even when you headshot).

EDIT:

I'm going to edit this post with stuff/comments I read.

These changes are very weird. Why spread while hip firing? I saw you said it won't impact them at close ranges, so why? 80% of my sniper shots are hip fired. I don't want to be forced to use the buggy scope that makes you move super slow. Nothing will make me rage more than missing a shot because of spread.

I don't see what adding spread is aimed at. If you are trying to nerf skill, it won't change much. Most of the really good snipers are just good at aiming. They could grab about any weapon and shut down an area of the map.

Because the way it is right now, snipers NOT having to use scope/precise aim is a huge problem.

Möbius and Mendoza are utterly useless right now, because the high-end snipers are just that more effective at nearly everything else, especially against infantry.

Crates adjustments

Why remove the RNG from the crates?

Having it being a bit of a gamble is the fun thing.

"Do I run into the crate as a SBH and hope for a refill since I'm only at 60HP or do I try to get home?"

Stolen vehicles dont count towards the vehicle limit of either team anymore.

This is a bad change.

Vehicle stealing was a HUGE part in the old Renegade. The enemy having one vehicle less to use was a good strategical advantage.

Added check to prevent players from placing beacons inside their own base (the check is based on the spotting locations/buildings if the nearest spotting actor is a friendly building the beacon cant be placed. The player gets a message informing him about it)-

Why?

This is another tactic that can be used to scare the enemy.

@Air balance; I think a 50 HP nerf on air vehicles would be a good thing indeed, as some others suggested similar things. I personally don't see why only the RL unit works as an AA, but the Officer/Laser Chaingunner too. At least I've used both of them on Walls as such and they do a decent amount of damage for what they cost.

@EMP grenade; This is a cool idea, but it needs to be balanced very well or it's going to be OP for NOD very fast.

@Misc changes; A lot of nice improvements for the GUI and server-side options. Especially small annoyances like wrong hit indicators. Making the nades better is also much welcomed.

@Buggy/HMV/APC; WHAT? That thing already controls weird as fuck! lol

@Chainguns/Laser-chaingun; I don't see why this weapon needs any changing and this sounds like a bad idea.

-- (off-topic) Allow destroyed buildings to be repaired: i know this is a huge change and will not make it in this or few next betas. but it will prevent the players leaving when one of their buildings get destroyed and will give a hope of comeback to that team. you can either require a huge repair with repair gun (like 50 times the building health) to rebuild it or scatter (or put in crates) resources like steal, wood, etc. in map so players can collect them and when they have a required amount the building gets rebuilt.

This is an absolute no-go.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Guest

[Handepsilon]

Ap2000, the ramjet(Sakura/Havoc) gets damage nerf into 150, in addition to spread. Light vehicle damage is also nerfed while heavy vehicle damage is buffed to compensate it.

[Ap2000]

Ap2000, the ramjet(Sakura/Havoc) gets damage nerf into 150, in addition to spread. Light vehicle damage is also nerfed while heavy vehicle damage is buffed to compensate it.

Thanks.

I started to understand that as I went reading other comments. haha

Well, the dmg decrease makes me very happy!

And making the hip firing less viable is also very much needed.

[A-Rodge]

@bananas

Your sniper play is really good, and you have obviously put time into perfecting it. However, it is a bit ridiculous that snipers are effective at every range and can head shot from the hip. It defeats the purpose of being a sniper; long range assassination.

Sure it's supposed to be "arcade-ish" but there should never be a class that dominates at every range with little risk.

If the community WANTS that sort of thing, then I suggest we rename the sniper rifle to railgun, or some sci-fi weaponry that works at all ranges.

[Bananas]

Ok. I apparently didn't explain myself enough. I'll try to break down my thoughts on snipers.

I have often considered if the game would play better without snipers. I understand they are frustrating and can completely control certain maps. Maps like xmountain it is very difficult to get by a good sniper. Partly this is due to map design. There are many things I would be open to trying with snipers, but spread implemented how it is makes no sense. I would never want ANY spread, but the way it is being implemented confuses me. I understand I haven't actually played with it, so maybe a dev will be able to correct anything I say wrong. I'll try to break this down and then maybe give some thoughts on snipers.

We never said hip fire spread makes it impossible to use in CQB. Its subtle to the point where it can still be used for mid ranged engagements but will not always be smart to do that at mid to long ranges.

Ramjet spread doesn't mean you won't be able to shoot from the hip - it just means that you won't be able to do it from halfway across the map.

I'm going to break these two quotes down again. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting them.

Both quotes say that this spread will only effect hip shooting at long ranges. This confuses me. Even without hip spread, the longer the shot the more beneficial it will be to scope. The farther you are shooting the smaller the head and body size. Let's use Walls as an example. If you were to ask people if they scoped shooting from the cliff to the back of the enemy base, most would say yes. I scope for that. It's very difficult to hip fire that far. So most snipers would already scope for that distance. If it's already more beneficial to scope, then why punish someone for wanting to hipfire the shot? I just don't see what this spread is aimed at.

I'll break down what ranges I would call things by using islands as an example. For me it would go like this (these are urls). Short Medium Long Longer

Which range will this spread effect? I would hip fire short, medium, and most of long. Anything longer or more I would probably scope.

My point is if this spread is only for effecting long ranges, then why is it being added? I would say most people already scope if they are shooting "halfway across the map". It is more beneficial to scope than hipfire at that point. That being said there are reasons to attempt to hipfire. In sniper battles for instance it can be better to keep moving but take less accurate shots. Why are we attempting to add spread to punish someone who wants to take the more difficult shot? If someone wants to try to headshot me with hipfire from across the map, then let them. If they can do it then good for them.

If this change does get pushed through then the scope would have to be changed. It is already super buggy, but it slows you down too much. If I can't hipfire, then I would want full scope movement speed back. The bug already allows you to do this (which I know many people use). Being stuck at a painfully slow movement is very boring.

Anyways, let's break down why snipers are the go to killing machines. They can hit accurately from any range with hitscan. They are single shot which allows poking in and out of cover (wallhugging) without taking damage. They have the potential to one hit kill any infantry. Even without headshot they do good body damage. They have pretty good amounts of ammo.

Now compare to the other classes that are good for killing. Limited range with possibly poor accuracy (but a sniper should be unlimited). No chance for instant kill. Most have to maintain line of sight to kill. They all have pretty good damage on head and body, some with burn. Very poor ammo amounts on most guns.

To me the biggest that stand out are the differences in ammo and the ability to kill without taking damage. With a sniper my potential is limitless if I play right. I can kill many people while not taking too much damage. Why would I want to choose a class that can't kill as many people and definitely will take more damage. Wallhugging is a huge part of why snipers are so effective. If this game was locked to first person, you would see snipers become a lot less effective. I'm not saying I want that, but it's worth thinking about. Snipers usually have their noses stuck against the walls. I actually find this extremely boring though...

While we are on the topic, let's address wallhugging. Why is it so effective? Quite honestly some people who play this game don't know how to move. If you walk straight forward you will die. If you dodge and turn like a madman, then your chances improve of not being hit. Even this isn't enough though. There have been some poor map design choices which hurt very badly. Islands tunnels have NO cover. If I go down the long tunnel as GDI, I'm looking at having to dodge at least 3 sniper shots before I turn the corner. Xmountain is one giant infantry chokepoint with little cover. Lots of places to wall hug too. Perhaps smokes grenades will help depending on their price. I know I have used emps to some success as cover. They are expensive though.

Even if you get to a sniper they are still effective at close range. People complain about getting headshotted, but it is also just skill and good aim. If you come against canucck when he's mendoza or has carbine, there's a good chance he will still just completely melt you still. It's not exclusive to snipers. Shoot, sometimes I use lcg because it's actually easier to get kills with than sniper.

I feel like I am running out of things to say and losing track of my thoughts, so I'll try to wrap this up.

In summary (somewhat), I am completely open to sniper changes. I agree that they can be dominant, but spread is not the way to tackle this. I'm not sure of what changes would best. Perhaps lowering firespeed and increasing reload time would help to punish snipers for missing. Similar to how missing with a sydney or raveshaw can be very bad. Snipers usually get too much freedom to miss if they are playing smart. Anyways, that's for another discussion.

[RoundShades]

I don't know. If you want me to be a dick about it, I would say to make snipers balanced along other classes in what they do, reduce the ramjet to 100 damage, give them some sort of buff that gives them 40 damage to light armor, 20 damage to heavy armor, and 5 rounds a clip and faster fire rate between shots. Then, they don't 1 hit kill, they do the same damage as the 500 sniper sure, but they are better against field vehicles and they can take bodyshots in faster succession.

Because I would prefer "quickly" anyday to "instantly". Instant means fights are over instantly. Quickly means if a sniper encounters too many enemies they will take "some" bullets each fight and eventually need to retreat or die.

Honestly, it would be nice if 500 and marksman damage to light armor was left alone. I am not sure where the spread/c4/lightarmor changes come from, but all we wanted was the 1k sniper not to 1 hit kill, and for some minor buff in some other area to comphensate. Heavy armor buff, rate of fire buff and an extra round per clip, all buff it plenty while removing the 1 hit death bane of all existance. The double timed-c4 was a GREAT idea, that is so useful for any class, just make that a purchaseable item. Replace 1 c4 with 2 c4. Make beacons also replace c4, that nerfs sbh using emp nades. Plenty of equipment options for all!

[OTT]

one thing i dont like about the 500 sniper is the 1 headshot kill to 1000 inf ,although sniper headshot is logical to be a one hit kill but this is Renegade X.The 500 sniper is more dangerous than the ramjet cuz it does the same as the ramjet when it comes to headshots, but you can still be unseen after 1,2 and maybe more kills unless the other players know where to look or are lucky enough.A 300-320 damage when headshooting 1000 inf would be best,but I am not sure about compansation though maybe make him faster at shooting or more hidden flying bullets.From my experience the only range where the ramjet is better than the 500 sniper is at close range.Speaking of sniping style ,not sure how this nerf to snipers will work ,i rarely and i mean rarely use scope ,i only snipe light veh or free inf from far range ,i don't engage with other snipers at far range cuz i'll lose if the other sniper is good(cuz of lag issues),at close range maneuvering while against other snipers and only stoping to shoot then maneuvering again means a good chance i am the winner against the other pro sniper,since it prevents headshots but not necessarily body shots unless its Canucck who happens to hit the head with his sniper/mendoza no matter how much the maneuver (not to mention carbine) ,although less likely with the sniper.Another thing is while using 500 sniper ,like 30 % of the bullets don't even come out ,not sure if it happens with others or its only lag issues.But yeah i agree with most of what Bananas said.

[SFJake]

We really need to stop with the compensation mindset. A nerf is a nerf because a class is overused. It does not need compesation. Its absurd.

The 500 sniper has been nerfed in this game since you can the trail of his shots, even though they are harder to see than the ramjet's, and headshots are more difficult in this game than in the old Renegade. Plus they have a lower fire rate.

The 500 sniper is perfectly fine. Some maps are too open, particularily the new ones, but thats a map flaw. There's a reason I don't like those maps. You don't just redesign the entire game just because the mappers didn't make their new maps accordingly.

There's really no sniping problem (besides the 1-hit kills) in the vanilla maps.

[Jack Brace]

As for changing old maps; I think its gonna lose allot of old-school Renegade players, which just want graphically updated gameplay; I hope the "classic" versions will be selectable, and new maps instead of changed old maps. (-4)

As for gameplay changes, EMP grenages taking out mines is a massive shift in defensive gameplay (honestly, is it to solve or promote high mine-limit servers? I think it promotes the latter). It could turn out as a chance for more strategy or more noob-team losses. (0, not decided yet)

I never liked the Silo added Flachette, maybe I'm biased, but IMHO it should be exclusive to Patch. NOD and basic infantry getting access is still OP. (-2)

Extra C4 for Sakura/Havoc is a nice addition, not directly productive, but making a 1000$ char worth more when sniping gets less profitable (thus more flexible). (+1)

New maps, oh gooodie (that are not yet re-tweaked/are direct copies I hope ) that I loved back in the day! (+6)

No more surfing Aerials (+2)

Stolen vehicles don't count towards the vehicle limit (?? why, stock stolen vehicles anyone?) (-1)

Still, I'd go with any update since some gameplay is a little stale and repetitive; and allot of this update sounds solid!; Thus everyone will have to play to judge first. (+6)

Total 8 (out of 10?)

[RoundShades]

Stolen vehicles still help. They just don't nerf the enemy, they simply buff your team.

Really, storing them is more dangerous now anyway, given sbh can disarm mines and/or smoke the defense tower.

So, really, using them in battle still gives you up a vehicle, possibly a powerful one since gdi benefits from arties and stanks, and nod benefits from mammies and meds.

[Jack Brace]

Really, storing them is more dangerous now anyway,

Not if you just camp base with it (occupied) (and wouldn't SBH be stealing them in the first place?)

[kenz3001]

if you dont like the changes you can remake or change them back but you must use a different name like "cnc-field_oldskool" or something ... you will have the power.

[yosh56]

We really need to stop with the compensation mindset. A nerf is a nerf because a class is overused. It does not need compesation. Its absurd.

That. Not everything needs a complete rebalance; some things just need to be nerfed...like me.

Really, storing them is more dangerous now anyway, given sbh can disarm mines and/or smoke the defense tower.

I doubt a smoke grenade will let you make it all the way to the back of a defended base.

[djlaptop]

One fix I haven't seen mentioned here... Is the "default grenades" thing fixed in b4? Please say yes.

[Havoc89]

I'm seeing a few people suggesting removing ramjets, would you guys be open to that idea? I'm not sure how people who prefer snipers would feel about that, specifically talking to you Bananas.

The main reasons why ramjet's light armour damage was reduced was because it felt like an awkward solution that Westwood decided to use to balance them out. For example, why should a ramjet have a higher DPS against light armour than a railgun? Its something that can be confusing for new players, and the logic behind it is purely to have some counter when there wasn't one present. We wanted to give anti-tank weapons the opportunity to become a legitimate counters to light armour. Ramjet is still more than capable of taking them down, but its no longer the only one nor is it the best choice. Granted we haven't posted all of the updates because a lot of them haven't passed preliminary testing.

I can certainly see the argument against ramjet's spread acting as a double nerf with the reduced infantry damage, and I can certainly see the argument that if it is so subtle to hardly make a difference than why have it at all. We'll be paying close attention to the changes during the next beta testing sessions with the clans.

EMP grenades have recieved a slight nerf, we though the idea of disarming mines over the course of the effect was a very nice way to mix it up. We've also reduced the vehicle disable time quite a bit and we'll see how that goes out in the tests. Keep in mind that although it sounds OP, it does cost quite a bit and does replace C4s.

Lots of comments here, and we appreciate them all, blunt or complimentary, keep pushing us so that we can deliver a better game. The beauty of Beta 4 is that if we screw up horriblly, we can fix things almost immediately.

[RoundShades]

if you dont like the changes you can remake or change them back but you must use a different name like "cnc-field_oldskool" or something ... you will have the power.

I noticed this when you made your Youtube video on Beta 4 Changes.

Yeah, people could make naval combat if they wanted. The shoreline is just sitting there on volcano. Just gotta put in the unreal development and the game will run it. Whoever knows how to, could do it.

[Valor]

Mesa:

Cave is now inf only

Vehicles can now use both side routes

Explanation please?

[boxes]

Mesa:

Cave is now inf only

Vehicles can now use both side routes

Explanation please?

Mesa is too spam intensive. Once a team gains control of the cave, it's extremely difficult to launch a counter attack because half of your team is running around back and forth repairing building after building.

This is in favor for GDI by a longshot because of Mammoths+Hotties, and also because the AGT guns are able to shoot inside the cave while the Obelisk cannot.

[A-Rodge]

I'm seeing a few people suggesting removing ramjets, would you guys be open to that idea? I'm not sure how people who prefer snipers would feel about that, specifically talking to you Bananas.

Now you're not just opening the can of worms, you're shredding it in half with a chainsaw! I would expect a lot of initial backlash to the idea since it is a "sacred original renegade weapon".

Honestly, I think this idea could potentially work if we can hammer out some community dialogue. Here are some of my initial thoughts on how this might work:

1. Commandos that are actually Commandos

Havoc, the renegade mascot, doesn't function like the traditional Command and Conquer commando. Extra long range anti-light vehicle/infantry wasn't necessarily the staple description. Mid-Range badass with over-the-top destructive capabilities sounds a bit more appropiate. I am curious to see how this could be approached in the future.

2. Premium Sniper

In the hypothetical scenario of Ramjets removal, that would leave the Sniper role solely up to BHS and Deadeye. Here are some spitball changes that may make them a more premium asset to a team.

Blackhand Sniper / Deadeye

- Reduce firing rate

- Reduce reload time

- Increase ammo

- Increase health

- No headshots from hip

- Slightly reduce body damage from hip shots

- Increase from $500 to $700

3. Nod Anti-Air

This may be a bit off topic, but with the changes to ramjet and possible removal. There are fewer ways to deal with orcas. Implementation of some hard AA like the GDI's MRLS could be potentially needed.

4. What about Moby?

Do you have any input on how Moby's role would change with the onset of base-rushing Havocs/Sakuras? Close-range anti-vehicle? Maybe give him a loadout of utility items so he doesn't rely completely on the volt?

[boxes]

Honestly, all that needed to be done for the ramjet was to reduce the damage to infantry from 200 to 175. Nothing more.

[yosh56]

Honestly, all that needed to be done for the ramjet was to reduce the damage to infantry from 200 to 175. Nothing more.

150 is fine, the only thing it does is change the Ramjet from 1 shot or 2 shots to the body, to 2 or 3. 3 shots to other tier 3 infantry still is in no way a bad thing. Tier 3 health's only noticeable benefit right now is being able to tank the Obelisk, and that literally means nothing on a map with no defences. It literally does nothing to change tier 1 or 2 TTK.

(They can tank like one extra mine of course, but it's pretty negligible compared to tier 2 health)

[RypeL]

I think we should give ramjet hip fire spread a chance. It isn't necessarily true that this punishes skill cause it introduces quick scoping as a new skill you will have to master if you don't want to loose accuracy at any range. That's why you can also argue that this change promotes skill cause in some way it certainly does.

Also now being able to see what direction you were killed from will force snipers to change their position more often. So it should take a bit more effort to play a sniper to buff other inf a bit.

[Ap2000]

I'm seeing a few people suggesting removing ramjets, would you guys be open to that idea? I'm not sure how people who prefer snipers would feel about that, specifically talking to you Bananas.

Well, I am pretty biased since I hate snipers in every single multiplayer game (I guess Sniper Elite doesn't count haha) and since C&C Renegade and BF Vietnam I've always, in every single MP game, as much as possible played on servers that have snipers disabled or on auto-kick. Actually not the class itself but the rifles, e.g. in BF3 you can still play as recon if you use weapons like the AS VAL.

But my main problem with RenX is just getting one shot killed in any way or form when you just bought a 250+ HP unit. I don't mind a Havoc doing up to 230 HP damage headshot damage on any unit, but anything more than that just seems ridiculous to me and makes me not want to play the game at all whenever I get 1 shot killed in the GDI base as a Patch (it happens frequently on Walls). I hate it. Especially with hitscan it can make the game unplayable and utterly frustrating.

What Jake said is true, we don't always need compensation. However, with the huge dmg nerf I'm talking/dreaming about, I'd also greatly reduce the money cost to 450 and 800 of the sniper classes.

Unfortunately the community for RenX is relatively small and there are no "no sniper rifles" servers, so I have to vent my opinion here, even if it does negatively affect players that love to play snipers.

[GatsuFox]

I think we should give ramjet hip fire spread a chance. It isn't necessarily true that this punishes skill cause it introduces quick scoping as a new skill you will have to master if you don't want to loose accuracy at any range. That's why you can also argue that this change promotes skill cause in some way it certainly does.

Also now being able to see what direction you were killed from will force snipers to change their position more often. So it should take a bit more effort to play a sniper to buff other inf a bit.

No. Just no. Quickscoping is just a gimmick to get around bad game mechanics in EVERY game it is in. You are decreasing skill because there is now a dice roll when you shoot a weapon. If two snipers go at it and one attempts a quickscope and misses and the other is flailing around and shoots at the body (neck) and the magic RNG shoves the bullet into the head of his opponent then you're saying there's an increase of skill here?

How about proper punishment? Was there a proper punishment in this engagement when the random shot hit someone's head? The quickscoper misses his shot, you can say there was a -lack- of skill here. But the guy who hits the (literally) random headshot, do you say that this guy is lucky or has real talent?

This is why many Quake, UT, and Tribes players just laugh at "pro" counter strike players. It's such a stupid mechanic.

Also one other point. I very rarely scope. I play this game pretty much like I play UT, Tribes, and Quake and it has worked well for me thus far. However, now you're changing my play-style without any argument to back it up. You have nothing and we've given you MANY arguments, many examples, many counter examples and yet we're pretty much being ignored. Even if I'm just one person, you're going to kill my gameplay. I didn't want to bring up the victim card but my hand is being forced.

Go ahead and try out the RNG nonsense in your BETA servers but I will be extremely upset if it makes it into the actual patch. When you have the TOP PLAYERS in your game complain about an upcoming change, I think you should look into it more. This is NOT a balance change, this is a MECHANICS change.

Just question your self more. Is this a -good- change in an arcade based shooter?

[GatsuFox]

I'm seeing a few people suggesting removing ramjets, would you guys be open to that idea? I'm not sure how people who prefer snipers would feel about that, specifically talking to you Bananas.

Well, I am pretty biased since I hate snipers in every single multiplayer game (I guess Sniper Elite doesn't count haha) and since C&C Renegade and BF Vietnam I've always, in every single MP game, as much as possible played on servers that have snipers disabled or on auto-kick. Actually not the class itself but the rifles, e.g. in BF3 you can still play as recon if you use weapons like the AS VAL.

But my main problem with RenX is just getting one shot killed in any way or form when you just bought a 250+ HP unit. I don't mind a Havoc doing up to 230 HP damage headshot damage on any unit, but anything more than that just seems ridiculous to me and makes me not want to play the game at all whenever I get 1 shot killed in the GDI base as a Patch (it happens frequently on Walls). I hate it. Especially with hitscan it can make the game unplayable and utterly frustrating.

What Jake said is true, we don't always need compensation. However, with the huge dmg nerf I'm talking/dreaming about, I'd also greatly reduce the money cost to 450 and 800 of the sniper classes.

Unfortunately the community for RenX is relatively small and there are no "no sniper rifles" servers, so I have to vent my opinion here, even if it does negatively affect players that love to play snipers.

The only reason why sniper rifles are broken right now is from headshot damage. Headshot multipliers need to be dropped to 2x, not 5x. 100 -> 200hs and 150 -> 300hs. This is a suggestion for balance, proper balance.

EDIT: I'll give a brief reason why this change would be good.

Right now it's extremely difficult to repair vehicle sieges/rushes because of 500 sniper classes that easily pick off the 350 tech/hotties. One headshot (easy even for a mediocre sniper) and it's 50 free points + no more healing. The whole course of a battle should not be changed with just one shot from one player. It should take atleast 2 shots to kill a tech/hottie which would give a chance for them to reposition them selves, find cover, and maybe even heal. This would also give a bigger reason to infiltrate behind enemy lines with other classes to kill the healers since the snipers would not be so reliable.

Also there's just so much angle pressure from 500 snipers right now when people invest in a 1k class. A 500 class should not counter 1k classes so easily.

[yosh56]

Engineers/Techs are already strong enough, and if a team has enough of the map on lock-down then engis don't even have to worry about snipers. On the same note, that 'easy' shot to make is usually complicated by anyone who is not a total noob at repairing in the field. When you move like a chicken with their head cut off, then just put 50 tons of heavy armour between yourself and the vapour trails you basically negate snipers. No matter how much you want to make it sound like sniping engineers/techs is game-breaking, it's honestly the one thing snipers can do that's both productive, and only as good as the engineers/enemy team are bad.

500 not being able OHKO tier 3 infantry, maybe. I'd rather see PIC and Mobius resist AOE damage, which was expanded in RenX because reasons.

[Handepsilon]

Seems like hip-fire inhibition is becoming the most controversial change. At this point, it's gonna make a topic of its' own.

I'm just going to make a speculation here. I'm not able to open RenX at the current moment to do my researchs and I certainly cannot play online without decent internet :

There is certainly some advantage of using and not using scope. I'm taking UT as an example. When you use scope, you'll get better look and bigger hitbox (at least the illusion will say that) to shoot at. But your view is limited, so you'll be unaware of the other things around you. Ignoring scope, and you'll get the exact opposite. You're aided with name ID when looking at someone, with the exception of UT3. So in case you have bad sight, you can still look for the ID.

RenX is currently like that, except the ID is replaced by recticles that moves for a sec or 2 depending on how stationary the target is, extended if you use Q. In fact, you can hold Q and scan for your target and hold it so you can determine where your target is. With this mechanic, the hip-shooter gets the advantage of being able to get target concentration and being able to become aware of your surroundings, while the scope only deals with the concentration. That means, with 100% accuracy all the time. It isn't too fair.

With spread, while forcing all people to scope, it gives both sides more fairness as they have more proportional advantages and disadvantages.

Of course, speculations. This may or may not be true. Just based on previous gaming experiences. I'd say give it a go first. Besides, the closed beta testing hasn't even commenced and auto-patch is about to become a thing now. If spread does hurt RenX, the dev can nullify it without waiting for months

[epicelite]

Did you fix Stank missiles being unreliable as fuck? Sometimes they fly low and hit a rock, other times they fly to the side and hit a wall, hell maybe they will just fly right over your target!

[RypeL]

@GatsuFox: I was/am a Quake and UT player aswell for many years. There i love my no scope railgun and i love my strafe jumping etc. But Ren-X isent Quake. It just makes no sense to compare Ren-X to Quake. Your best bet is to compare it to BF. And in BF there also is hip fire spread. Yes there is some RNG. People are dealing with it in games like BF just fine.

[Ap2000]

Also one other point. I very rarely scope. I play this game pretty much like I play UT, Tribes, and Quake and it has worked well for me thus far. However, now you're changing my play-style without any argument to back it up. You have nothing and we've given you MANY arguments, many examples, many counter examples and yet we're pretty much being ignored. Even if I'm just one person, you're going to kill my gameplay. I didn't want to bring up the victim card but my hand is being forced.

You were given the explanation that Havoc etc. right now are OP and unfair, for some more for some less. Something must be done.

And as a matter of fact, in Renegade it is really easy to hit something without having to use the scope. That's not as much of a problem for standard infantry, since one bullet doesn't do a lot of damage.

A Havoc/Sakura is basically a running OH-KO death machine with instant hits (hitscan).

I didn't want to say this at first, but since you kept going on about it, I am not sure why you're saying that it takes a lot of skill. Because playing the sniper classes, it takes NO skill at all to kill anything. Whenever I happen to pick up a sniper outfit from a crate I easily kill 5~7 people without breaking much of a sweat. No other class lets you do that.

Go play a sniper in a Battlefield game and you'll see how much different and difficult it is to play there.

I'm not saying Renegade is BF or should be BF, but I'm saying the snipers in Ren(X) are cheap and overpowered classes.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Guest

[Handepsilon]

I kinda have to agree with the ease of sniping as well. Arena shooter games are about killing other players randomly mostly rather than complex strategy like RenX. My friend who rarely plays such games and instead go for CS styled games, says that it's waaaay too easy to snipe equipped with weapon recticle, and 100 accuracy all the time after I described how UT sniper works

We cannot use UT or Quake as reference since their movement systems are VERY acrobatic (at least UT is. I've only took some glance on Quake) while RenX with all its unrealistic features possesses more realistic movements which makes sniping much easier than UT

The only thing that keeps me from sniping right is mostly lags and I'm more CQB

[Canucck]

Arena shooter games are about killing other players randomly mostly rather than complex strategy like RenX.

You have some studying to do

Also you should want to snipe with high ping since it's hitscan. One of the better cqb classes in the game too

[Handepsilon]

Okay, maybe a bit oversimplified

But still, RenX is not an arena shooter (which UT is, as repeatedly said in their dev forum). It's not like you can strafe bunny-hop your way without some sort of penalty.

[SFJake]

But Renegade X is still a game with arcade-like shooting. IN fact its the only reason I like it at all. I despise any and every shooter where movement makes aiming more difficult and where shooting isn't accurate (from CS to CoD) precisely because it makes the shooting feels like complete crap and makes movement feels like an handicap.

Only games like Renegade makes me feel like I'm in "control". In all other shooters I feel like I'm severely handicapped and there isn't a worse feeling in the world.

Thats all the "arena" Renegade is. Its not an arena shooter, it just embraced the non-garbage mechanics that all shooters love nowadays.

Its true that snipers as a result have the highest skill ceiling and can technically win any encounter by simply succeeding a single headshot. But the only real problem was the one-hit kill to body shots. Headshots are VERY difficult, and movement in this game can be fast and heratic. Heck, with some sprinting you can be godly unpredictable.

The only moment they become broken is in maps like Lakeside. I'm sorry, yes, games like Renegade needs a certain sort of maps, otherwise snipers do become completely broken. I feel bad for insulting maps because I don'T want to attack the map makers personally but there's a reason infantry fights are absolutely terrible in big maps, to the point I wish the big maps were permanently removed from rotation.

But I still want to live with Renegade, not with modern-shooter mechanics that ruins the mechanics of anything. We just need to understand to make maps accordingly.

I'd never play a sniper ever again if I couldn't hipfire at close range, for instance. You'd have just killed every ounce of fun I have in the game's fights. Close-range fights with a ramjet or a sniper are insanely intense.

I'm just saying all this for the sake of discussion, not as a direct response to anyone's argument.

I'm in total defense of how Renegade handles snipers mechanically. I would basically puke if it changed. Games with innacurate movement hipfiring on any weapons are garbage in my eyes, no matter the reason. So I say lets go from these mechanics and balance as much as possible, but while keeping this "arena" influence, always.

I mean, its not like we need bunny hoping to have a game where you don't feel handicapped. Heck, I always thought bunny hoping was really dumb.

[RypeL]

Lets look at this again: We have a game where you dont have advanced movement options like strafe jumping or dodging. You cant even hop arround much. You can sprint but thats the only thing. You also often dont have much cover cause of the big open maps. Then against you you have a sniper that is totally precise at any range without even having to scope (so also no scope delay, nothing). There is no spread, no bullet travel time, no bullet drop, no need to use scope, nothing. Oh but also your crosshair turns red when an enemy runs into it so you just have to click and hit him instantly at any range. Very little coordination and timing are needed. The more i think about this the more it becomes apparent to me that this is wrong and an imbalance on so many levels.

I'd never play a sniper ever again if I couldn't hipfire at close range, for instance. You'd have just killed every ounce of fun I have in the game's fights. Close-range fights with a ramjet or a sniper are insanely intense.

The tiny spread we are talking about will mean nothing, nothing at all, at close range.

[SFJake]

I specifically said this:

I'm just saying all this for the sake of discussion, not as a direct response to anyone's argument.

I know very well the small nerf to spread doesn't do that.

You also often dont have much cover cause of the big open maps.

Big maps are terrible in Renegade. Blame the maps, not the snipers. You need heavy covers for infantry and maps that don't make them vulnerable from snipers from a thousand direction while having no covers to run to.

UT is equally awful in maps that are too big, in my honest opinions. Maps are a huge balance factor in games like this.

By your logic, the 500$ sniper would rule the battlefield because he can single-shot anyone. He does not.

The mechanics aren't much of a problem in most maps, but there's some things that are lacking since Renegade to help balance things up.

-The automatics have spread. This makes them worse against single-shots for no reasons.

-With the damage nerf, Mobius is crazy strong against ramjet.

-I still think splash-damage through walls should come back, or at lesat an algorythm that allows explosion to reach a sniper on a hill, for example. This sort of covering fire was ridiculously useful in Renegade and was of a HUGE importance to keep snipers at bay. Now they have no fear.

Instead, they can hide in their perfect spots now and still take perfect shots at infantry, because the splash damage will never reach them.

-If we have to consider other nerfs, maybe make snipers go out of scope when damaged. Make long-range sniper shots less effective if you're not using scope.

At least, this would mean people could fire on a sniper with automatics to kind of force him to stay covered and unable to snipe, giving yourself some cover. With the hipfire long-range nerf, it might work.

Snipers are scary, but they should be. They're the only class that can control the flow of infantry. Its kind of necessary.

As long as the maps are good (walls, islands), snipers aren't the answer to everything and if you can consider other original alternatives, we don't have to make snipers feel bad, while giving players more ways to counter them.

I personally like ideas of suppressive fire (either from tanks or infantry) to be effective against snipers trying to snipe from long-range.

But snipers being good up close is just what Renegade is. The damage nerf is enough to make them more in-line but they ARE the anti-infantry role. Sydney is a field-vehicle harass god that should never, ever die to a vehicle. Mobius is a damage god that can rip vehicles in 5 seconds and infantry in 2.

Heck, the game has 1 class made almost completely invisible.

There are lots of crazy things in this game, but the game as a whole isn't broken for it. I think if we stick to nerfing the frustrating parts (body one shots, and now 1000$ have the edge requiring 3 shots), the game still works out perfectly.

[Ap2000]

Suggestion: Why not remove the reticule for the sniper rifles, instead of adding spread?

But I still want to live with Renegade, not with modern-shooter mechanics that ruins the mechanics of anything. We just need to understand to make maps accordingly.

I like the maps a lot and think every other class and vehicle is balanced around them pretty well, the problem are the snipers.

[SFJake]

Suggestion: Why not remove the reticule for the sniper rifles, instead of adding spread?

Oh god no, we just barely got it back. And anybody could use a program that just puts one on the screen for you. Or just tape a dot on your screen. No escaping this one.

I like the maps a lot and think every other class and vehicle is balanced around them pretty well, the problem are the snipers.

I'm referring to the new maps. They are too big and they make snipers a problem. The old maps don't.

The remade original maps are pretty much all fine in size.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Guest

[GatsuFox]

Suggestion: Why not remove the reticule for the sniper rifles, instead of adding spread?

But I still want to live with Renegade, not with modern-shooter mechanics that ruins the mechanics of anything. We just need to understand to make maps accordingly.

I like the maps a lot and think every other class and vehicle is balanced around them pretty well, the problem are the snipers.

Bad suggestion. There are plenty of third party programs and monitors that will add a crosshair to the screen and it will give people who don't have or use these augments a large advantage.

Lets look at this again: We have a game where you dont have advanced movement options like strafe jumping or dodging. You cant even hop arround much. You can sprint but thats the only thing. You also often dont have much cover cause of the big open maps. Then against you you have a sniper that is totally precise at any range without even having to scope (so also no scope delay, nothing). There is no spread, no bullet travel time, no bullet drop, no need to use scope, nothing. Oh but also your crosshair turns red when an enemy runs into it so you just have to click and hit him instantly at any range. Very little coordination and timing are needed. The more i think about this the more it becomes apparent to me that this is wrong and an imbalance on so many levels.

I'd never play a sniper ever again if I couldn't hipfire at close range, for instance. You'd have just killed every ounce of fun I have in the game's fights. Close-range fights with a ramjet or a sniper are insanely intense.

The tiny spread we are talking about will mean nothing, nothing at all, at close range.

Advanced movement techniques =/= how hard it is to hit someone in the game. This game has almost no slip and no punishment from changing movement directions. Dodging left and right is very powerful in this game, especially compared to a tactical shooter like BF4 and COD. The reason people don't complain about RNG hip fire in those games is because it's EASY to hit people by using the sights and people die in 2 hits. You don't need any skill in BF or COD to land kills, trust me I play COD4 all the time and the way people aim in that game and kill me even when I'm dolphin diving and dancing everywhere, even doing random circle jumps against campers, its just ludicrous how they don't even have to TRACK or anything, just "aim" and spray in my general direction and kill me. Is this what we want when our in-game credits are on the line? Random deaths?

Infact now that you mention it another thing that makes snipers broken in this game is by the developers design to have players slow down to a crawl after jumping and sometimes after sprinting long distances. What the hell? Who thought this was a good idea...