Those Mammoths be Thicc

[DeadAccount]

There is a lot of fantastical explosions and serene features in the new release, but when the new bug/glitch update is patched i feel it would be worth considering the following changes in terms of gameplay and balance.

MAMMOTHS and MEDS are THICC: GDI tanks are beefy and it's really hard to find counters. For every Mammoth with a Hottie you need 5 Nod players just to take it down. That level of investment gives GDI such a huge edge. A major problem is that Rav and LCG do not do enough DPS to melt mammoths in time. Something needs to be done cause right now they are just way too thicc. One idea to counter this would be the following...

Ravs, LCG's, and Chems: One way to fix the above would be to revert the LCG and Chems to their former state and speed up or buff the rav railgun. This would also help in countering Patch. Right now there is no counter to Patch for Nod besides Doza.

I'm Poor All The Damn Time: The economics of the game need a retool. There's a real issue when it comes to currency in-game that drives towards one-sided stalemates where you can't make a comeback happen. I think a good fix would be to up the Credit Ticker 3x its current speed and cut the Harvey dump by 200 credits. This way Harvey's are still important but they're not the end all be all. This would allow the flow of a match to continue during all phases of the game.

Rav/Sydney: There's a design issue with the new railgun/ion lag time. Slamming my mouse button with the charge-fire feels less than intuitive. Oftentimes I'm just hammering my mouse hoping for it to fire. I think a better option when you play Rav or Sydney is to hold down and charge (like Mobius alt fire) and when you're ready to fire you let go. This gives you more control, visual cues, and a more satisfying experience. 

Too many guard towers: All the new maps have GT's on infantry paths. It's overkill. I have no idea why it's become such a big trend but it shuts down options for teams.

If anything else comes to mind I'll be sure to post it. Really enjoy the work the devs are doing! Keep it up! *air5!!

Edited September 26, 2018 by MintLemonade

[NodSaibot]

I think having a higher credit tick rate and lowering the harvy dump amount would be beneficial for the game. Personally I also don't like that you have to hold the button to fire the pic/railgun. Maybe lowering the dmg resistance of the meds/mammies would suffice, not really sure.

[Ryz]

Well if you have multiple LCG's or Raveshaws on a distance and an EMP you have a problem with your med / mammoth. Not to mention the range arties have...  Combine that with an SBH (shortly) harassing repairs or an airstrike in the back of a mammoth (forcing it to move forward) and you can easily take them down. A mammoth has issues taking out one or two LCG if 'he' is alone unless you headshot them by accident. To me it's the opposite. See the PUG's or games where the STRIP is down and GDI has to fight against lasers..  Lasers are (too) strong. 

[Radeon3]

4 hours ago, MintLemonade said:

Ravs, LCG's, and Chems: One way to fix the above would be to revert the LCG and Chems to their former state and speed up or buff the rav railgun. This would also help in countering Patch. Right now there is no counter to Patch for Nod besides Doza. 

Keep in mind you that Rav and LCG are anti tank units. Why should they counter infatry or anti infantry units? We had enough of that crap for the past 2 years. Not to mention that now Syd/Rav have Patch's old and buffed Fletchette SMG which made the whole nerf a buff, but fuck logic.

4 hours ago, MintLemonade said:

Too many guard towers: All the new maps have GT's on infantry paths. It's overkill. I have no idea why it's become such a big trend but it shuts down options for teams.

Bad or lazy map design.

4 hours ago, MintLemonade said:

MAMMOTHS and MEDS are THICC: GDI tanks are beefy and it's really hard to find counters. For every Mammoth with a Hottie you need 5 Nod players just to take it down. That level of investment gives GDI such a huge edge. A major problem is that Rav and LCG do not do enough DPS to melt mammoths in time. Something needs to be done cause right now they are just way too thicc.

Agree. In my opinion the main problem is that Mammoths make GDI even more boring. All GDI has to do is to survive until most people can afford Mammoths, in the meantime they already gained some ranks which scales better with the Mammoth specs. Nod basically has to prevent that from happening otherwise they got run over with relatively low effort. A good counter would be arties, but since most maps are "smallish" Mammoths can return fire (once again veterancy even gives them a greater range).

In my opinion lowering the basic stats like armor and/or range would balance it somewhat, alternatively reducing the its veterancy gains. Lowering its speed didn't/doesn't matter.

[NodSaibot]

1 hour ago, Radeon3 said:

 

Have you played recently? lol. The flechette hardly compares to the anti inf they used to be. Bad or lazy map design? Usually to counter SBH or stop early rushes from ruining games. 

[Radeon3]

@taishō

Yes I have. lol? In good hands it achives a similiar efficiency in disposing infantry. Once again, Syd/Rav are anti tank units, now with penetrating shots and a fully automatic gun with infinite ammunition. And all this for the same 1k pricetag...
Most of the vanilla RenX maps don't have GTs on infantry paths or at all, yet teamwork still can handle SBHs.
And what's wrong with early rushes? One side managed to play as a team to achieve something meaningful. The other side had all the tools to counter it. Is that ruining a game because the other side was careless? I don't think so. As Mint said it shuts down options for both sides.

Just to clarify, I have no problem if mapmakers put their maps full of GTs, they have all the liberty to use their artistic freedom as they wish.  At the end, players will vote anyways whether they like a map or not. If a map is voted rarely it means that players don’t find it as fun as the other given options. One reason behind this could be a generally slower gameplay and limited options due to the GTs. Also most players run as free infantry; sure is fun to charge with them a strong pillbox which tears apart 1-2 units before they can even get to it. Just my 2c.

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Radeon3
1 more thought

[vandal33]

I agree about Guard Towers being a lazy method to "balance" infantry. And they limit options a lot.

[NodSaibot]

3 hours ago, Radeon3 said:

 

Yeah, you're expecting teamwork in pubs. Good luck with that  And yeah, everyone hates Snow. It surely never get's voted in. Liking maps and maps getting voted in are not necessary correlated. 

[Guest once upon the time]

Its funny to read this discussions from veterans , sorry that i must smile.

I read a lot of personal taste in the comments , like nerf this buff this. Somewhere in the middle is the true, but looks like some ppl only see the own perspective.

Guard Tower is a big help for ppl who starts to play Ren X, for veterans more like not necassary. Teamplay in pub games are really selden in the past too.

The most funny part is that Rave is not strong enough against a Med, really ?

We had very often the discussion how to get more ppl playing Ren X, and in my opinion this here is not helping to get more ppl.

All my personal opinion, you can ignore if you like .

kind regards

Silent

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by once upon the time

[Syntharn]

I dont think GTs limits options but rather add objectives, same deal with the SAM/AA sites really, or the destroyable barriers.
Losing a building within the first minutes of gameplay is bad for server population, ragequiters...
Having to deal with a GT before rushing straight to MCT with free infantry encourages teamwork since they indeed are hard to solo kill with anything other than rockets from a distance or with a tank.
im aware the teamwork part doesnt always work hahah, but i generally have nothing against hem.

GDI tanks that are impossible to kill is all about them hottys, and if you can't kill the hottys that usually has to do with the vehicle combat not being mobile enough for the defensive line to be broken. airstrikes fixes it sometimes, for a while.
I see it all the time on small maps with high amount of players, ranted a bit about it yesterday in discord.
Regular field with a high amount of players too often end up with one side just spamming the other side with both sides standing more or less completely still, just tanking, spamming and being repaired.
snow is even worse, good for infantry combat, never good for vehicle combat.

Whitout the possibility to flank tank lines its alot harder to deal with them, its a question of which map is being played and how many players there are playing it.

The tanks themselfes can dealt with fairly easy i think, an unprotected mammoth can be killed by a solo rocket launcher dude with a good position and some time, even less now than before.

[Radeon3]

31 minutes ago, taishō said:

Yeah, you're expecting teamwork in pubs. Good luck with that  And yeah, everyone hates Snow. It surely never get's voted in. Liking maps and maps getting voted in are not necessary correlated. 

C'mon, Sarah don't give me that elitist PUG bullshit.

[roweboat]

34 minutes ago, taishō said:

Yeah, you're expecting teamwork in pubs. Good luck with that

 

With enough radio spam... anything is possible!!

[yosh56]

11 minutes ago, roweboat said:

With enough radio spam... anything is possible!!

Proven fact. Do it all the time. 

Also killing GDI armour packs is pretty easy with EMPs and just spamming LCGs/Ravs. Considering Ravs can now hit more than one tank at a time too, I don't think GDI's tanks really need any nerfing. 1 LCG also does as much damage as an Advanced Rep gun repairs.... so all extra damage on a target is extra credit if people just focus fire, which is very easy to do to an EMPd vehicle. 

[NodSaibot]

1 hour ago, Radeon3 said:

C'mon, Sarah don't give me that elitist PUG bullshit.

Elitest PUG? Watch any recent pug video and tell me which player I am. I almost never play PUGs. 

[yosh56]

4 hours ago, taishō said:

Elitest PUG? Watch any recent pug video and tell me which player I am. I almost never play PUGs. 

Don't have to to get being an elitist out of what you said. 

[roweboat]

I'd say a few interesting back and forths here...

I will say I see a trend pushing towards forced teamwork/teamplay. Which I think is fabulous.

@MintLemonade If I might be so bold to say that most of points are based on playing the game incorrectly. Hell I'd argue most people play this game wrong. Hell I play the game incorrectly half the time.

-Mammoth overpowered? 2-3 LCG/Rav, airstrike, cruise missile, emps and sbh/officers to take out hotties/engis behind them.

-Being Poor? Ask for team donations. there's always 1-12 people sitting around with 2-3k for no good reason. I'd say its not a lack of money, just poor management. I'm more old school in liking the *0* credits after refinery death... had to fight hard for those credits then!! **Give commander ability to redistribute credits??**

-Guard towers? Could be poor placement or to make up for bad design, but a well-coordinated attack with a few rockets should take out any small defense easy. (unless of course the other team is guarding it well)

 

The real question is, how do we encourage & teach better team mechanics? Is it even possible or worth the effort?

I don't always have answers, just posing questions.

I do really like the improved radio text. It's a great first step. All ways that in-game communication can be improved will increase chances for teamplay.

[Idiotas]

22 hours ago, Ryz said:

Well if you have multiple LCG's or Raveshaws on a distance and an EMP you have a problem with your med / mammoth. Not to mention the range arties have...  Combine that with an SBH (shortly) harassing repairs or an airstrike in the back of a mammoth (forcing it to move forward) and you can easily take them down.

So you need all that effort to just kill a mammoth tank? Sorry but mammoth tanks melt Raves and LCG's especially if the mammoth has heals.

20 hours ago, Radeon3 said:

Keep in mind you that Rav and LCG are anti tank units. Why should they counter infatry or anti infantry units? We had enough of that crap for the past 2 years. Not to mention that now Syd/Rav have Patch's old and buffed Fletchette SMG which made the whole nerf a buff, but fuck logic.

Thing is, nod doesn't have a 2 tier anti infantry to kill a Patch. They either need to use an officer (with good aim) or wait till they have an Doza. LCG's could kill a Patch before, but now they're just shiz. SBH's aren't an option either, because they would just melt.

19 hours ago, taishō said:

Bad or lazy map design? Usually to counter SBH or stop early rushes from ruining games. 

More like making the game last longer and torture people because they can't infiltrate/sneak in the enemy's base to kill an building to make a comeback.

 

13 hours ago, SilentKnight said:

Its funny to read this discussions from veterans , sorry that i must smile.

I read a lot of personal taste in the comments , like nerf this buff this. Somewhere in the middle is the true, but looks like some ppl only see the own perspective.

Guard Tower is a big help for ppl who starts to play Ren X, for veterans more like not necassary. Teamplay in pub games are really selden in the past too.

The most funny part is that Rave is not strong enough against a Med, really ?

We had very often the discussion how to get more ppl playing Ren X, and in my opinion this here is not helping to get more ppl.

All my personal opinion, you can ignore if you like .

kind regards

Silent

 

"I read a lot of personal taste in the comments, but looks like some ppl only see the own perspective."
"The most funny part is that Rave is not strong enough against a Med, really ?"
"All my personal opinion"

Good one. Also are GT's helping new people? or just torture them in long games because the team can't infiltrate a building as their last hope because of GT's.
People will learn eventually.

13 hours ago, Syntharn said:

Having to deal with a GT before rushing straight to MCT with free infantry encourages teamwork since they indeed are hard to solo kill with anything
im aware the teamwork part doesnt always work hahah, but i generally have nothing against hem.

Exactly, they encourage to do that, but they won't. Even people trying to make a rush happen has trouble to get players to group up.

13 hours ago, yosh56 said:

Also killing GDI armour packs is pretty easy with EMPs and just spamming LCGs/Ravs. Considering Ravs can now hit more than one tank at a time too, I don't think GDI's tanks really need any nerfing. 1 LCG also does as much damage

Don't need to nerf the GDI tanks, just buff the LCG.
1 LCG also melts down before it can even fire.

6 hours ago, roweboat said:

@MintLemonade If I might be so bold to say that most of points are based on playing the game incorrectly. Hell I'd argue most people play this game wrong. Hell I play the game incorrectly half the time.

-Mammoth overpowered? 2-3 LCG/Rav, airstrike, cruise missile, emps and sbh/officers to take out hotties/engis behind them.

-Being Poor? Ask for team donations. there's always 1-12 people sitting around with 2-3k for no good reason. I'd say its not a lack of money, just poor management. I'm more old school in liking the *0* credits after refinery death... had to fight hard for those credits then!! **Give commander ability to redistribute credits??**

 

1: Look how much you need from nod just to kill the mammoth tank and for what you have said requires teamwork which doesn't usually happen.

2: Having 0 creds and won't be able to buy stuff to defend your base or even to make a comback, just to sit in base repairing the buildings for a long time because the enemy won't rush in, while you have 0 tanks is just fun and not boring/torture at all.
 

[Guest once upon the time]

@Minji Yep, I know that i was doing a provocation (with my post)

Fact is like in all other games where you play in Teams that you need Teamwork. I know from the past that was not easy to play  as a Team.

Magic key is  "Teamwork" and i dont know (because I stopped pub games, but still testing things) how the Commander Mod is supporting Teamplay.

This point you know much better than I.

Teamwork is not possible to test, but you can Test weapon against other things like tanks.

Yes, and new player will learn , when they like the gameplay.

 

[RoundShades]

Quote

Guard towers in every map

...could we give them ammo and passive reload? By which I suggest, can we give them enough ammo to take down 1-2 infantry units at current speed, but it regens ammo slower so unless it has time to pause it starts firing 1/3rd speed (still damaging but at least it's less). patatatatatat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat (pause) patatatatat...

...oh, also, the initial alpha damage can be tanked with heal, and then two people can walk while healing past them. Opens options, not too many, the thing still kills solo infiltration, just not mass groups or pairs of healers.

[Axesor]

I dunno about the economy suggestion. I have totally opposite view, cuz I want harvesters to be absolutely crutial for the game. In the cqc rts, when someone attacks a harvester, AI sends all its units to protect it, cuz its the only source of money. I would like to have this tension in the game.

Credit ticks only supports passive way of gameplay, and therefore stalemate which was always the problem for RenX, and I wish there was other ways to farm money other than this credit tick.

[Ryz]

On 9/27/2018 at 11:08 AM, Minji said:

So you need all that effort to just kill a mammoth tank? Sorry but mammoth tanks melt Raves and LCG's especially if the mammoth has heals.

And Raves / LCG's melt Mammoths, especially if they work together...

I don't get why you find it perfectly normal a tank driver has repairs / teamwork and thus survives longer, while you find it not ok for Nod to have to work together to kill a vehicle.

As soon as a med / mammoth has no repairs it can be easily killed and it happens quite a lot that people forgot to repair or just don't care. Combine that with the fact that GDI has a harder time to repair their own vehicles cause of SBH and I think it's balanced pretty ok, but still favors Nod. Most PUG games also prove that, not to mention Snow-X yesterday 'melting' GDI with lasers... 

[Idiotas]

40 minutes ago, Ryz said:

And Raves / LCG's melt Mammoths, especially if they work together...

I don't get why you find it perfectly normal a tank driver has repairs / teamwork and thus survives longer, while you find it not ok for Nod to have to work together to kill a vehicle.

As soon as a med / mammoth has no repairs it can be easily killed and it happens quite a lot that people forgot to repair or just don't care. Combine that with the fact that GDI has a harder time to repair their own vehicles cause of SBH and I think it's balanced pretty ok, but still favors Nod. Most PUG games also prove that, not to mention Snow-X yesterday 'melting' GDI with lasers... 

Because tanks have repairs most of the time, especially in games with lots of people and ofcourse i'm ok with people working together, it's a team based game ffs. The only problem i have is the amount you need to kill them.

For snow, you only won the game by the sbh c4. GDI killed your "melting lasers"  so many times with their tanks. The vehicle route doesn't have a lot of space, so the tanks going in one by one will die obviously.  

[DeadAccount]

Love the passion all!

On 9/26/2018 at 9:22 PM, roweboat said:

 

@MintLemonade If I might be so bold to say that most of points are based on playing the game incorrectly. Hell I'd argue most people play this game wrong. Hell I play the game incorrectly half the time.

 

I will say I'm maybe 1 of 20 people who regularly play both the pug and pub games daily. Having that opportunity to play both routinely I feel my game sense and perspective is pretty sharp.

I still feel strongly that most of my points earlier stand. Mammoths are a steal and require so much Nod investment in terms of economics and time. Also, couple more things after playing this week!

While playing Xmountain i noticed the infantry path at the back of strip was removed. I know the route is not intentional but it does offer a lot of freedom and made the map infinitely better than having to walk all the way around. Would it be possible to bring those alternative paths back? I think that map really suffers without those routes.

Cruz missiles snowball so effectively (because you get cp back from q spotting) that if a commanding sbh drops a nuke and places 2 or 3 missiles on top of it, it's impossible to stop. Not very many commanders realize this yet but they'll be taking advantage of this mechanic soon i imagine.

 

6 hours ago, Ryz said:

And Raves / LCG's melt Mammoths, especially if they work together...

I don't get why you find it perfectly normal a tank driver has repairs / teamwork and thus survives longer, while you find it not ok for Nod to have to work together to kill a vehicle.

As soon as a med / mammoth has no repairs it can be easily killed and it happens quite a lot that people forgot to repair or just don't care. Combine that with the fact that GDI has a harder time to repair their own vehicles cause of SBH and I think it's balanced pretty ok, but still favors Nod. Most PUG games also prove that, not to mention Snow-X yesterday 'melting' GDI with lasers... 

Snow was the outlier of yesterday. Again a single event doesn't indicate a trend. On top of that, GDI controlled the entire match except for a series of events which allowed Nod a sort of freak accident to win. Keep in mind we had blown your strip fairly easily and broke hon to 5%. The reason for our loss...

- The nature of snow which bottlenecks and forces gdi take to make a 90 degree turn just to whack Hon. (Again, we had blown Strip and nearly destroyed Hon)

- The bottleneck of the tunnel. So obviously if you have enough emps to spam you're going to jam them.

- bibi and jp allowed Nod to stay competitive in bunker. It's very difficult to counter them in public games since they work so closely together. Had they been split or simply never joined Snow would have ended long ago. We ended up needing to spam the bunker with tanks and bibi was crucial to stopping multiple rushes giving Nod time to farm veterancy. 

- An elite/Heroic stealth unit stealing an MRLS from a newer player and spamming with Offensive buff to kill barracks. Had he not stolen the MRLS I'm still fairly confident we probably would have won.

It required all of these things just for Nod to squeak by... on Snow.

 

Also, i'm sure after a few pugs it'll be pretty obvious what changes are needed. I think it's awesome how passionate the community is about the game and people shaping and sharing ideas is all i care about. *air5!!

Edited September 28, 2018 by MintLemonade

[Guest Gliven]

Warning, dropping a novel. Sleep deprived, poor read. Grab a coffee, or a beer, or both, mix it up a lil.

 

2 LCG's or 2 ravs beats a mammy and 1 repair, 1 lcg or 1 rav shouldnt be able to kill a tank AND a repair. Of course if the tank has more repair, you need more people shooting at it.

Also, LCG can still kill patch, hell i can even beat mobius as an LCG in mid-range battles, just ask @taishō and @poi. Mid-long range LCG can 1v1 patch, about 60% of the time. Up close and personal, Patch can win 75% of the time. As a unit that is supposed to be geared around AT, it can still wreck infantry, especially at heroic. LCG does not need a buff.

Mammoth tanks can melt ravs and LCG's, this is true. But If the rav or Mantank are in a position to be "melted" they aren't doing their job properly. They are infantry, not tanks, they shouldn't put themselves into positions where they have to tank multiple shots. These are support units, not front line units. A Raveshaw or an LCG in cover or up high is cancer for tanks. If you have no sniper cover for your tanks from entrenched AT, you will not be able to push, period.

One thing id like to mention that people keep forgetting. GDI and Nod are designed to be A-symmetric. They have units with different features, strengths and weaknesses. You cant compare patch to lcg, or gunner to lcg, or doza to mobius, etc...It doesn't work that way. 

GDI's infantry are good at killing infantry, but are terrible at killing buildings and tanks, GDI has what, Rocket soldier and Gunner? Gunner is a terrible AT unit. He dies way to easily to arties, mediocre at killing infantry, and only good at killing tanks mid-range. The only plus side to gunner is that it can melt dumb arty drivers and shoot buildings from far away.

Mobius is stupid good at killing infantry, has a tighter spread than doza, and has that stupid electro ball. He cant engage tanks at a safe distance, and crap at shooting buildings from the outside.

Patch is a good anti-infantry unit, has good range, good at taking out appaches and lightly armoured vehicles, he does his job well.

LCG can kill infantry, and tanks, even from a far distance, can take a lot of punishment. The downsides, are that its easy to jump on an un-aware lcg because of spin up time. He is slow as F--k. His damage to buildings are negligible.

SBH can infiltrate relatively easy, especially in groups. They can harass snipers and repairs. They do decent amount of damage to vehicles. Their armour is made out of paper though.

Doza can kill infantry pretty well. They can wreck buildings. They can damage tanks pretty well, but die easily if tanks even look at them.

 

Both teams also have different pacing. Nod can own the early game with their artillery, and now with better light tanks from previous patch, they can hold the field too. Throw in some LCG's, and bam, GDI is locked in their base. It's no wonder Nod was winning so many matches last patch. Control the field, control the eco. GDI only has a chance when they can keep their first harv alive and kill Nods. (or if Nod is asleep). 

Nod is more geared towards un-orthodox strategies. They are cheap, fast, glass cannons, that need to use stealthy tactics and flanking maneuvers. 

GDI is more geared towards ground-pound, devastating firepower, and incredible staying power. With units that are slightly more expensive.

GDI should win most matches if they can survive the early onslaught, and push out. Nod should win if they can keep up the pressure and secure the eco victory.

The problem for both teams though, is that map design doesn't always help their strengths. We either get big open fields where nod's stanks are king. Or tighly packed maps with only 1 path through the tib field, where GDI is king, if they can control the eco. Field control should be balanced around how effective each team can control the infantry path. As in, multiple paths including long and short ones where Nod can benefit from their rushy infantry. Or easily controlled with small numbers where it benefits GDI.

[I am an Owl]

I agree that mammoth tanks are too strong once they reach elite. One elite mammoth with one hotwire supporting requires at LEAST 3 high cost nod units to deal with. To be honest it is more like 5 nod units, which is a HUGE manpower investment to defend against just 2 players.  This large manpower investment from nod takes players away from other parts of the map and gives GDI more freedom to invest in snipers, reps, inf path..etc. Also I honestly feel that the only thing that is preventing GDI offensive boosted tank rushes from being a 100% unbeatable game winning strategy is that most players are too scared to hold down the W key and suicide their tank in order to win the game.

[Calvin]

I don't think mammys are too strong, Judging by the amount of times i seen nod win without having tanks ~

[Madkill40]

On 9/26/2018 at 7:43 AM, MintLemonade said:

MAMMOTHS and MEDS are THICC: GDI tanks are beefy and it's really hard to find counters. For every Mammoth with a Hottie you need 5 Nod players just to take it down.

I took down an Heroic Mammoth tank on Tomb with just a flamethrower trooper, this tank in question had a Hotty too.  

[Redarmy]

On 9/26/2018 at 2:43 AM, MintLemonade said:

 

MAMMOTHS and MEDS are THICC: GDI tanks are beefy and it's really hard to find counters. For every Mammoth with a Hottie you need 5 Nod players just to take it down. That level of investment gives GDI such a huge edge. A major problem is that Rav and LCG do not do enough DPS to melt mammoths in time. Something needs to be done cause right now they are just way too thicc. 

This was demonstrated easily enough during Tomb on the last PUG. Even without Weapons Factory to make more tanks and ref, Nod still just had no hope of breaking the GDI siege. Like, I don't know how anyone who played in that game could think that is fine. Tib field side at one point we had like 3 LCGs and 2 Raves and we still couldn't fucking kill the mammoth tank.

On 9/28/2018 at 2:54 PM, Gliven said:

they shouldn't put themselves into positions where they have to tank multiple shots.

Multiple shots? Meds can headshot LCGs to insta-kill. 3 indirect mammoth shots will kill a rave. So after 1 decent volley you have to go back and heal or just end up dying.

[vandal33]

1 hour ago, Redarmy said:

Even without Weapons Factory to make more tanks and ref, Nod still just had no hope of breaking the GDI siege.

Had this yesterday on Under, WF is down and a Hero mammoth makes Nod impossible to get out of the base (they still have all 5 buildings) and mobiuses crowding the tunnel. And yes, we had competent players on Nod that time.

[Ryz]

1 hour ago, vandal33 said:

Had this yesterday on Under, WF is down and a Hero mammoth makes Nod impossible to get out of the base (they still have all 5 buildings) and mobiuses crowding the tunnel. And yes, we had competent players on Nod that time.

That's basically 90% of all Under games

Most of the times GDI locks Nod in base even without veterancy. 
Sometimes Nod locks GDI in base

On a random Under game Nod usually has more SBHS then field reps. People just don't get the importance of taking field and killing the harv. I've seen so many games on Under where we were stuck in base, but still had 8 or even 12 SBHS swarming the field without even shooting most of the time. Imagine they would have killed every harvester? That would give the defending team a lot of VP. 

Some maps benefit from chockepoints.

Can't renember the 'new' maps name with elements of Trainingyard. But we lost many Mammoths in seconds when peaking around the corner due intensive fire. 

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Ryz

[Xeon Wraith]

This is all sounding a lot like the tank balance thread of a few patches ago. I haven't played this patch very much, so I can't comment on how much of the mammy related stuff is relevant though.

Conjectures:

> The strength of the mammy is probably more potent on public servers, purely due to the player count. As vehicle limits don't change with players, its a lot easier to get more repairs on each tank on a 64 player server than a 40 player server. I'm pretty sure LCGs can't produce net positive DPS against hotwire repairs so those additional reps would provide a pretty significant statistical advantage for GDI.  Dunno about Raveshaw.

EDIT: Apparently I'm dumb and can't read. According to Yosh, the LCG deals the same DPS as advanced repairs. This point is voided.

Last PUG didn't have the best of player balance, so I'm not gonna consider that Tomb game as a indicator for small player games.

> I don't really see the issue with tank damage vs infantry. Using high ground can reduce - if not completely remove splash damage from tanks (i.e volcano tib walkway). Granted, not all maps have high ground to use but I don't think increasing AT inf staying power is the right call to deal with these maps. Tank headshots are funny and I will reject all arguments for their removal regardless of how sensible they may be.

> I'm pretty okay with decreasing the importance of the harvester. Most maps already have a siege point to farm VP to award teams that control the field. Stopping their harvester is a bonus.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Xeon Wraith
am dumb

[limsup]

8 hours ago, Xeon Wraith said:

Tank headshots are funny

Not when you're on the receiving end 

[Redarmy]

10 hours ago, Xeon Wraith said:

 

Last PUG didn't have the best of player balance, so I'm not gonna consider that Tomb game as a indicator for small player games.

Why didn't rebalance immediately happen then? It was requested by numerous people.

[Guest Gliven]

16 hours ago, Redarmy said:

Why didn't rebalance immediately happen then? It was requested by numerous people.

Off topic, should be discussed elsewhere but. I told you guys to make an offer, and the only thing you guys told us, was to give you Xeon. That wasnt going to happen.  Agent said to try the first match and see, and then you guys won the first match.

Related to the Tomb match. Havoc and I were the ones repairing those tanks. I also watched videos from both sides. We had sniper cover, and a mrls in the back to splash cover if anyone poked their head. Your team never focused enough when the mammoths were emp'd. And when you did focus fire, you killed Snips mammoth while 2 hotwires were repairing it. You had 2 LCG and 1 Rav shooting it. And then a 2nd rav came and shot the last couple of shots to finish it off.
so Nod had 3 infantry at a cost of 1900 credits, GDI had 1 tank, 2 infantry, at a cost of 2200 with almost no chance of that mammy kill you(bar a lucky headshot). It took 1 additional person from Nod to finish it off at a cost of 2900. It probably didnt even need to be another Rav, it could have been another LCG or a rocket trooper. Had you actually killed me or Havoc, those tanks would have died long ago. If you dont believe any of this, go watch the videos.

Mammoth tanks are slow as fuck, kill their repairs and they go down easy, they cant run away back to cover. They are massive so they are easy to focus fire on. Park 2 mammies beside each other, and they will block an area 3 meds and a mrls could have taken up. Your team mates cant shoot over them, so any of your team mates behind you are useless in tight maps. 

1 LCG should never be able to 1v1 a med out in the open especially a mammoth tank, you are foolish if you try.

 

[yosh56]

I'm also starting to think we're all a bit more MANTANK dependent than we should be on Nod. Saw this a lot on Field last PUG when we started pushing back a lot harder when we spammed more Ravs than just LCGs. Mammoths are way easier to line up shots with the Railgun for pierce damage than any other tank, which helps spread repairs significantly more as well. It'll probably take a bit of getting used to since LCGs were kinda' broken for so long vs. vehicles, as opposed to being just being good against them.