Tiberian Sun Mode

[ThaneWulfgharn]

First of all, congratulations on the mod! It is awesome!

Lately, I was thinking about how "symmetrical" the Renegade gameplay is. There are differences between GDI and Nod, still not many.

So inspired by the Tiberian Sun vehicles I was thinking in theory about a "Tiberian Sun" Gamemode. Pracically, every map has its "Renegade" and "Tiberian Sun" version. The Tiberain Sun version includes structures, vehicles and infantry from Tiberian Sun. (Probably there should be additional infantry classes maybe from Tiberian Dawn and/or Tiberium Wars since TS has few infantry. For example, Shadow Agent and Chemical Trooper for Nod and Sniper and Zone Trooper for GDI. Still, the main difference that Nod has a Rocket Soldier and GDI Disk Thrower and Jump Jet Infantry should remain. (Also, Nod's "recon/stealth" unit is the Shadow Agent, the GDI one is the Sniper)

The idea is to offer a purely asymmetrical gameplay with GDI and Nod being completely having completely different infantry, vehicles and aircraft, therefore puting more emphasis on teamwork and tactics.

[Agent]

You'd probably want larger level design in order to accommodate the Juggernaut and Mammoth MK II. Tiberian Sun versions of the current maps would be pretty not great.

Designing new maps, vehicles, units, weapons, etc would be quite a bit of work though and I don't think anybody's really willing to do all of that.

[ThaneWulfgharn]

Hmm... but I want so badly to have the possibility to choose whenever I want the current TS vehicles and probably have more of them (Nod Artillery, Devil's Tongue, Reaper, MRV, Harpy, Banshee - GDI Juggernaut, Disruptor, Mobile EMP, Mammoth Mk. II, Orca Bomber)

[TK0104]

Hmm... but I want so badly to have the possibility to choose whenever I want the current TS vehicles and probably have more of them (Nod Artillery, Devil's Tongue, Reaper, MRV, Harpy, Banshee - GDI Juggernaut, Disruptor, Mobile EMP, Mammoth Mk. II, Orca Bomber)

Mammoth MKII is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to big for the current maps. We probably need special designed maps for that Mammoth MKII

Look at the size of this thing on Under

[ThaneWulfgharn]

Ok, then the Mammoth Tank is ok.

I'm insisting on this since I think that the proper integration of TS in RenX would be an extraordiary improvement.

Let's start with a list of vehicles(including those who are already in):

GDI: Wolverine, Titan, Hover MLRS, Juggernaut, Disruptor, Mobile EMP, Mammoth Tank, Orca Fighter(Already in), Orca Bomber,

Nod: Bike, Buggy, Tick Tank, Artillery, Devil's Tongue, Reaper, MRV, Stealth Tank, Harpy, Banshee.

Obviously it is a match between the Strong and the Fast. GDI vehicles are more resistant, yet slower. This is compensated by the somewhat fast Hover MLRS. Furthermore, GDI has the Mobile EMP which disables vehicles for a certain period of time and the Mammoth Tank, the strongest(in terms of Damage, HP and Resistance) of ingame vehicles. The Aircraft is OK but it takes a combination of both Orca Fighters and Bombers to properly lead an attack. Bombers are quite effective vs structures (and vehicles) but cannot attack air.

Nod vehicles, on the other hand, focus on speed and damage-dealing. Nod players will have to play hit-and-run tactics versus GDI's frontal assault. The Banshee is a very powerful type of aircraft good vs other aircraft, vehicles and (not so much though) buildigns, while the Harpy is good vs infantry, aircraft and light vehicles only. The Nod artillery has longer range and stronger firepower(per-shot) than the Juggernaut, but the Juggernaut can fire 3. The Devil's Flame can lead some nice surprise attacks but I was thinking it should be expensive. Between the Tick Tank and Titan, the Titan is obviously victorious but it is slow, and easily countered with Bikes and Stealth Tanks. As for the Mammoth, the all-around, slow, strong GDI "superunit" has to be countered by tactical combination of various elements. Nod has also the Mobile Repair Vehicle(MRV) which is a huge advantage in protecting bases and repairing vehicles (since Nod vehicles are weaker).

To summarize:

-Where GDI is frontal attack, Nod is tactics and for every Nod tactic there can be a GDI counter-tactic and so on in an infinite cycle of strike and repel.

-There will be more aircraft and more importance to air battles, since GDI has the Orca Bomber which is dangerous to buildings. Still, even Nod has its own unit in a certain way, strong vs bases - the Devil's Tongue. (not too strong though, it is a flame tank and it is mainly an infantry counter.)

-The factions will have a slightly more unique feeling. For example, GDI will be characterized by walkers while Nod by light vehicles.

-The gameplay will be completely asymmetrical with every faction having a different type of gameplay.

-The Tiberian Sun mode will still be optional, so one can still play the classical Renegade X.

(Of course, much will be determined by the various stats as well as by the infantry of each side, argument which I did not treat since there is few infantry in TS and it would mean that some infantry would need to be invented.)

[DoctorAnubis]

Hmm... but I want so badly to have the possibility to choose whenever I want the current TS vehicles and probably have more of them (Nod Artillery, Devil's Tongue, Reaper, MRV, Harpy, Banshee - GDI Juggernaut, Disruptor, Mobile EMP, Mammoth Mk. II, Orca Bomber)

Mammoth MKII is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to big for the current maps. We probably need special designed maps for that Mammoth MKII

Look at the size of this thing on Under

I put the Mammoth MKII on my map as a destroyed vehicle in the lava. I spent hours getting it all positioned with ladders and such, however when I build lighting for the map the MKII shadows look ridiculously glitched with loads of weird lines running down the vehicle. I can turn shadows off altogether but then it looks even worse. Any idea for a fix?

[Handepsilon]

First... models first. Who's gonna be willing to provide the assets?

[Cherno]

The MKII could be made smaller, I'm not sure if there are any partys on it that would look weird when cheating with the scale. After all, C&C was always about strange proportions, buildings in the classic games look far too small relative to vehicles and especially infantry So if the MKII is 30% smaller maybe it could still look menacing but be able to move around in the present maps. It'd probably be a siege-only unit since there is no way it could defend itself against vehicles and infantry that come close to it.

[Fujiwara Chika]

As shown here, according to scale, it is only about as big as a building. If not, slightly smaller. So, that should aid in reducing the size issue. As for how it works, though. The MKII seems to have powerful railguns on the side which I believe, their projectile could be modeled somewhat like the PIC beam, only larger? In addition, it has rocket launchers mounted at the back of its body as shown. These can be used to engage long-range targets. Meanwhile, there is a gun turret at its chin which, I think, can rotate around to deal with closer, fast moving enemies that are generally light units. SHOULD there be a chance that the MKII is implemented into the game as a unit, however, I suggest to have it require multiple personnel on it in order to properly and efficiently wield the vessel. Different slots for players to take control of individual armaments onboard as well as a driver slot. This will make it less OP, in that in exchange for massive powerful, all of that power is wasteful unless all of the drivers and turret manners work together well in coordination. This will increase teamplay to a small extent. Imagine how it'd go down in a PUG.

[TK0104]

I will think I am playing Walker Assault instead of Command and Conquer mode

[yosh56]

I will think I am playing Walker Assault instead of Command and Conquer mode

This is not a bad thing.

[Henk]

The Mammoth MKII is in the SDK now, so with the help of mutators you could probably make a map that has only Tiberian Sun vehicles.

But you'd probably need to make a custom structure for the Mammoth, I don't think it fits through the WF bay, maybe something like the vehicle reinforcement structures from C&C 3 (Handepsilon made something like this)

Iit's size is also why you can't just take an existing map for it:

(Destroyed HoN by spawning the mammoth on the plateau)

 

[Sire]

Now I'm starting to see a Star Wars Battlefront version of C&C where GDI assaults NOD at their secret Arctic base with their Mammoth MK IIs. Banshees can replace the Snowspeeders, zooming around and bombing targets with its plasma cannons.

Then you have a gunfight between the Ghoststalker and the Cyborg Commando. (Yes, I know, I'm really late on all this.)
* * * * *
I always thought about a TS gamemode, but a part of me wants to tie in TS Technology through the Tech Center. So, GDI has its Advanced Communication Center while Nod has its Temple. While they are operational, TS Technology is available for that faction and if destroyed that side loses the TS Technology.

Then of course one will want to add in the infantry and other air vehicles instead of just having the tanks. While I would love the see Tiberian Sun for Renegade X, I don't see it happening in the near future. Then there is already a standalone game that does Tiberian Sun Renegade called Tiberian Sun Reborn, so making it on Renegade X may be considered redundant.

Also, I am unsure how balanced current TS Vehicles are compared to the current vehicles as they are normally obtained from crates. I know on Fort TS vehicles seem a little expensive and seem to be more for the novelty than actual effectiveness for its cost.

[Fffreak9999]

As I recall Fort vehicles are different compared to TS vehicle crate ones. They at least have a different name via IRC nBab_Vech_Titan or something like that.

[Handepsilon]

 

On 25/10/2016 at 4:55 PM, Henk said:

The Mammoth MKII is in the SDK now, so with the help of mutators you could probably make a map that has only Tiberian Sun vehicles.

But you'd probably need to make a custom structure for the Mammoth, I don't think it fits through the WF bay, maybe something like the vehicle reinforcement structures from C&C 3 (Handepsilon made something like this)

Iit's size is also why you can't just take an existing map for it:

(Destroyed HoN by spawning the mammoth on the plateau)

 

I made what now? Oh you mean that vehicle spawner platform? I had no idea if it was in C&C3.

If Mammoth is to be included in actual game, it has to be Mammoth vs. Base. The base's objective can be destroying the mammoth or survive the hold out.

Someone quickly make the mod

[Narcisist]

So...Love the game and things are looking very sexy and fantastic. Shown all my friends and most of them have downloaded this masterpiece...Now the real question.

I see you have 'command and conquer' mode. Are there any plans for a Tiberian Sun mode? Structures, Infantry and Vehicles. Tech buildings?

I have come back to this game and seen things like the EMP cannon. Is this going to happen?

[TK0104]

I don't think it will be. The devs will keep it just C&C mode of RenX. They only have some TS features in game. atm only vehicle crates but I think an infantry crate will be added to the game because they added weapon meshes to the SDK

[Madkill40]

Also see: 

 

 

[Marinealver]

On 6/16/2016 at 3:05 PM, Agent said:

You'd probably want larger level design in order to accommodate the Juggernaut and Mammoth MK II. Tiberian Sun versions of the current maps would be pretty not great.

Designing new maps, vehicles, units, weapons, etc would be quite a bit of work though and I don't think anybody's really willing to do all of that.

Sadly I agree, the game still need some optimization. Renegade Sun can wait.

The Mammoth Mk.II is going to be at least as big as a building. Think Hand of Nod Size, only moving, and it will have Adv Gun Tower Armaments. Destroy it and it stops. Then again having it avalible at the begenning might be a bad idea. I guess Mk2 Activation codes could be a purchasable item.

But as for Subterranean units I think you are going to have to design the map to have tunnels and "shortcuts" for subterranean units to be able to use so they could "pop" up. Devs could cheat and put in a big dust cloud to cover the subterranean unit entering and exiting through these shortcuts. It was a simple animation for Tiberium Sun as well.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Marinealver

[[B]Veyron]

4 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Sadly I agree, the game still need some optimization. Renegade Sun can wait.

The Mammoth Mk.II is going to be at least as big as a building. Think Hand of Nod Size, only moving, and it will have Adv Gun Tower Armaments. Destroy it and it stops. Then again having it avalible at the begenning might be a bad idea. I guess Mk2 Activation codes could be a purchasable item.

But as for Subterranean units I think you are going to have to design the map to have tunnels and "shortcuts" for subterranean units to be able to use so they could "pop" up. Devs could cheat and put in a big dust cloud to cover the subterranean unit entering and exiting through these shortcuts. It was a simple animation for Tiberium Sun as well.

I saw how it was done in reborn? the vehicle would complete an animation just prior to "going underground" which the unit actually just went into stealth/god mode and then would pop up wherever and do another animation transition prior to that.  

[Marinealver]

7 hours ago, Veyron said:

I saw how it was done in reborn? the vehicle would complete an animation just prior to "going underground" which the unit actually just went into stealth/god mode and then would pop up wherever and do another animation transition prior to that.  

Yeah but this is Renegade so the Vehicle has to be on the map at all times. The Dust Animation is just hiding the "clipping" as the vehicle goes through the special shortcut walls. So the solution is to build the map around the concept. You have a tunnel area as Tiberium mines under a combat area. You have to have entrances for both harvesters, as well as infantry and other "hidden entrances" for subterranean units only. Of course these entrances has to extend to both bases. The combat area above will be the path of the Mammoth Mk.II as well as all the other vehicles. Although if there is room enough for a harvester there should be room enough for maybe a TIC Tank or Wolverine. Also the tunnels don't need to go under the base, going through a natural stone wall on the outside of base but behind the base wall is good enough.

Nod Base            Combat Area        GDI Base

           Underground Tunnel Combat Area.

Generally trying to go with this idea for subterranean vehicles and combat.

Sort of like what this has for gameplay, minus the gas fuel tanks.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Marinealver

[Madkill40]

Every map would need special attention for possible 'stuck' spots for the special kind of Jump Jet Troopers.

[Marinealver]

17 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

Every map would need special attention for possible 'stuck' spots for the special kind of Jump Jet Troopers.

considering there was more aircraft in tiberium sun then there was in dawn those jet troopers can get unstuck with the assistance of a banshee and a few harpies. Helepads should be a tech vehicle to keep the war factory / fist of nod clear.

Speaking of flying vehicles maybe we could get a map that has both the Kodiak and the Moultak. Hey a guy can wish can't he?

Edited July 29, 2017 by Marinealver
bat$#!7 crazy idea

[lupotre]

On 25/10/2016 at 11:55 AM, Henk said:

The Mammoth MKII is in the SDK now, so with the help of mutators you could probably make a map that has only Tiberian Sun vehicles.

But you'd probably need to make a custom structure for the Mammoth, I don't think it fits through the WF bay, maybe something like the vehicle reinforcement structures from C&C 3 (Handepsilon made something like this)

Iit's size is also why you can't just take an existing map for it:

(Destroyed HoN by spawning the mammoth on the plateau)

 

How did you spawn it?  O_O

[Fffreak9999]

26 minutes ago, lupotre said:

How did you spawn it?  O_O

He is in the Editor, the files are present in there, and they can be added to a map for testing. As you can see, although it is the official walls map, it is listed as "Lighting needs to be built" on the left side of the screen. This means that the map has been edited in some way by adding/moving an object.

 

In this case, the adding of the MKII is the reason.

[lupotre]

So the console command is really bugged?

[Fffreak9999]

The console command will not work without a mutator in the game to summon it.

You can also technically spawn them in Skirmish if you add the file to live folder from the SDK

[Sn4ke]

@lupotre here you go:

anyway: Welcome back, commander @lupotre!!!

[lupotre]

Thank you!

[TK0104]

5 hours ago, lupotre said:

How did you spawn it?  O_O

In SDK: F5: summon RenX_Game.TS_Vehicle_MMKII

[lupotre]

I have tried it in SDK, It's simply awesome! I have done tests in Lakeside, It seems quite comfortable for MMKII...Why don't we put a mutator in the map so It can be found in crates?

[Sn4ke]

8 minutes ago, lupotre said:

I have tried it in SDK, It's simply awesome! I have done tests in Lakeside, It seems quite comfortable for MMKII...Why don't we put a mutator in the map so It can be found in crates?

are you serious?

the Mammoth crate is already OP as fuck

imagine an MK II crate

the enemy team could INSTA surrender. unless the driver is a noob and dies to some collision issue.

+ only the most huge maps can handle the MK II. it can furthermore crash the server if spawned

[lupotre]

If it gets less HP, less damage, longer reload time and a smaller (about 15%) scale ,could it be usable?

[TK0104]

3 minutes ago, lupotre said:

If it gets less HP, less damage, longer reload time and a smaller (about 15%) scale ,could it be usable?

The damage is huuuuge. #SoloBuildingKillIn10secs

[Sn4ke]

currently a single blast from the railgun ~40 dmg on a building per hit...

+ rockets + MGs...

[lupotre]

Shouldn't it be more vulnerable than other units to hit and run and group attacks, due to his size and slow speed?

P.S: Are the MGs automatizated?

And I've checked that a single blast of the railgun does more or less 19 damage on a main building

Edited August 10, 2017 by lupotre

[Luhrian]

8 hours ago, lupotre said:

And I've checked that a single blast of the railgun does more or less 19 damage on a main building

Well, the damage is pretty strong, but you can turn them not much.

I thought about the MKII in RenX like he his now and I noticed: he is pretty usless.

First of all he is a big target. Artys can easily hit him from a distance without a big danger.

For so a big target he need also more health. It is not a tank who can escape from a battle if it is getting critical, so he will die very quickly. 3 Artys bombarding this big tank is already enough to push him at least back. And if you have like 4 Light Tanks just driving  around him can easily put very much pressure on him. His MG isn't that useful at very close distance or if the enemy is behind you. A normal Mammoth Tank is much more useful. More speed, 360° turret, easier aiming on the enemy and at Heroic only 750HP less then a MKII. 750 HP sound much, but if you compare the size of the 2 tanks you'll see, that the normal Mammoth has still the advantage in surving compared to an MKII. Even with maps where you could use it, the MKII wont have an impact on the game. The only advantage is his damage  on buildings, but that's it.

But I don't know if increasing the health is a solution. Just imagine how many techs you need to keep a tank with for example 7500HP up.

@Ruud033 @Henk @Agent @yosh56

If there is anything planned with that tank, it would be nice to keep this feedback in mind.

 

[lupotre]

1 hour ago, Luhrian said:

Well, the damage is pretty strong, but you can turn them not much.

I thought about the MKII in RenX like he his now and I noticed: he is pretty usless.

First of all he is a big target. Artys can easily hit him from a distance without a big danger.

For so a big target he need also more health. It is not a tank who can escape from a battle if it is getting critical, so he will die very quickly. 3 Artys bombarding this big tank is already enough to push him at least back. And if you have like 4 Light Tanks just driving  around him can easily put very much pressure on him. His MG isn't that useful at very close distance or if the enemy is behind you. A normal Mammoth Tank is much more useful. More speed, 360° turret, easier aiming on the enemy and at Heroic only 750HP less then a MKII. 750 HP sound much, but if you compare the size of the 2 tanks you'll see, that the normal Mammoth has still the advantage in surving compared to an MKII. Even with maps where you could use it, the MKII wont have an impact on the game. The only advantage is his damage  on buildings, but that's it.

But I don't know if increasing the health is a solution. Just imagine how many techs you need to keep a tank with for example 7500HP up.

@Ruud033 @Henk @Agent @yosh56

If there is anything planned with that tank, it would be nice to keep this feedback in mind.

 

I agree, we could do some tests on testing servers at least :-)