Mining

[Novilan]

There are some interesting ideas overall.

The current mining-system is like a love-hate to me.

It's very unique and belongs to the game for me, since the times I played the original game. But it can be a pain in the ass, if someone isn't mining in 'the right way', so the current most efficient way to guard the base.

Some adjustments already improved the use of the proximity mines in my opinion, they can't be thrown anymore and that there are less mines to be placed (3 instead of 5 per door).

For me it comes down to two options at the moment:

1. If we stay with the current system and make more adjustments regarding the 'wrong' placement of mines, I would go for the 'designated mining areas' with a limited number of mines inside these areas. The use of proximity mines would be very restricted then and some things won't be possible anymore, but I think that would be the most convenient way to solve that issue.
2. If we want to get rid of the whole base mining system, I would go for the 'door protectors', which have to be destroyed or 'hacked' with some kind of alarm system. I prefer that option for now, because most people like to play offensively and there are a lot of people, who don't seem to care about base defence anyway. And I'm also curious, how that will work out.

 

My thoughts about some other options:

• If proximity mines would be purchasable only, the defence will probably lack even more, because most people like to play offensively. Especially at the begininng of a game, when the harvester or the refinery gets destroyed and the team has to deal with a low income. This will likely lead to more very short games. On the other side if there should be also no mine limit, the bases can become a mine hell, the longer the game lasts.
• The commander should be able to disarm all mines, because people put trust in him and mostly is one of the regular players with enough game experience.
• The option that every player would be able to disarm every mine will probably be abused intentionally by some players from time to time.
• I also agree, if we stick to the current mine-system, that the mine counter could be more prominent and highlighted, when the mine-count drops.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Denuvian

[RoundShades]

The mine limit, as vague as it is, covering the entire base, could use it's own voice call. "Base under attack" is an available voice clip for both Cabal and EVA. Use it as the Mine Limit Decrease sound? The only problem with that, is a player opting to diffuse them. EVEN  THEN, I'd rather have the callout falsely trigger, than to not have the callout.

[Madkill40]

Mines on infantry bottlenecks do cause a lot of surprise, but with EMP grenades they only really work in infantry bottlenecks the once and it is hard to remine those places after the first time, given how easy it is to infiltrate the bases the only practical place for mines has become the doorways. [SBH would easily avoid mines on most maps and get into buildings and we know how quickly 5 SBH can kill a building]

Green radar blips to indicate mines and the mine limit better integrated into the UI seems the most minimal but visually aiding of changes which only benefit the entire team, more specifically the active defenders, which is good because 30 seconds is a short time to have when trying to guess which building the mines have gone down in, making this harder for a solo infiltrator but not impossible.

[Ryz]

Voted.  

As for the vote; won't leave the game for real if mines are removed, but it would certainly take away a bit of the feeling. Mines should be changed though. I'll see what turns out of the vote(s).

[Axesor]

I havent met a single person yet, who want to remove mines entirely. I voted for a new door protector that will do the exactly same work for mines as they are now..u gotta use emp or repair gun or run into it to remove few lasers until they recharge again automaticaly, but also I want to keep mines in the game to be used in the field so they must be vulnerable againts weapons damage same as AT mines are. Lasers = mines placed perfectly every time on the same spot, but it will remove that procedure taken upon players so any possible human error regarding to placing mines would be removed entirely = no more threads about mines as nobody complains about at mines.

What should be done with mines next, like make them purchaseable or not, is not important. And again, giving a tool/more privileges to certain players regarding to the mines, will not solve anything.

[KrypTheBear]

How about the following suggestion then:

Two different types of mines. A laser tripwire mine, that is only deployable on (allied) doors up to three times (as is the standard right now) and exclusively available to Hotwires/Technicians, as well as the typical proximity C4, available for purchase for everyone with an increasing price depending on how long the game is already in (specific values could be discussed later on). 

This way, we still have the old system in use, you still have to keep track on mines (In this case, tripwires), and you can use proximity C4s for any use you want, be it additional base defense, mining silos/tech buildings, or even for offensive use inside hostile buildings. 
It would also be newbie-friendly, that it would display you a little "warning" on your screen, similar to the airstrike cooldowns, that you can only deploy tripwires nearby doors, and nobody would go around noob-shaming people who mine at probably clever positions but "wasting" mine slots.

EDIT: One could also consider potentionally dangerous positions viable for tripwires, such as the interior of the tower of the airstrip on flying maps. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by KrypTheBear

[Axesor]

I know its hard to imagine how lasers would work. There it is for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKsYBew_D5I&t=1m45s 1:45

I still disagee that players should place any mines/laser mines in doors. This procedure should be fully automatic and lasers should recharge itself every XX seconds after use. The only time when players need to care of lasers is when door defence panel is hacked by repair gun, so it needs to be claimed back.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Axesor

[vandal33]

I'm ok with KrypTheBear's suggestion about a separate type of mine exclusively for allied building interiors (i suggested that here before). Either it's the same as the proximity C4 but only deployable in buildings or mines using tripwires. Then the regular proximity C4s can be used for anything without bothering the base defense mines. As usual, only Adv Engineers can have this tripwire mine since laying base defense traps is their job.

[Henk]

Update on the laserdoors: need to program new classes to actually make it work properly, and I can't do that..

I have a control panel but it's an MCT, that both sides can capture, but it should work different than that ofcourse.

And it needs to react differently to Advanced Repairguns than to normal repairguns and repairtools, and also be disarmable by an EMP grenade. Can't do that sort of stuff in Kismet  

But I do have a laserwall that deals damage when the wrong team walks through it, and it is breakable (when an enemy walks through it, it partly depletes the lasers' energy. This way you can sacrifice yourself on it just like with mines)

[Axesor]

That's an awesome progress Henk! 

Windows dont need panels so it should be only matter of making the same laser wall with decreased amount of damage that equals 2 mines. Lasers for windows should be done then.

I keep my fingers crossed for you.

[lawANDorder]

Awsome news @Henk hope you find a way to get the code working so we can test the laser thing 

[Neutron]

Personaly, I dont like Mines that are placed to block enterances. Renegade is not Call of Duty, nor Battlefield.

Plus, It makes stealth units like SBH Useless.

 

In the original Renegade players had to protect buildings, not just place random mines, poof, buildings are Auto-protected.

 

The Mines makes absolutly no sense to me, and they're dont even fit to Renegade at all.

[yosh56]

On 10/22/2016 at 6:25 PM, yosh56 said:

sO LONg as purchasable mines aren't a thing I don't care what you come up with. Just... .decide on something. Henk: for the love of God, rig something in a map and I will happily add it to a patch for the sake of testing. 

 

... I'm sorry, but WHAT?? Mines are a direct replica FROM ORIGINAL RENEGADE. Mining doors has been a thing since 2002. 

[Axesor]

^ now since everybody is relying on him, he will probably never going to finish it

@Henk what do you need to program in the classes? Remember a weapon spawner on trainer yard map? Will it be possible to pick up weapon spawners classes and make it work on a similar principle? Just rewrite a few codes. I mean.. its such a thing that needs to be placed in the actual map and it spawns things(weapons/laser wall, in this case) in certain period of time  ...iam not much into this programming thingies so I may be just saying random bullcraps. If so, Iam sorry for that.

[Handepsilon]

You quoted the wrong post Yosh.

[Madkill40]

Green blips on the radar would probably resolve all the issues currently presented with mines, in OldRen you would typically want to be with other players when assaulting a building because numbers and it'd be good to have that back instead of solo infiltrators mostly relying on dumb luck and negligence. 

Small green blips for your team mines on radar, this minimalist detail I still think is the best and least intrusive option for everyone's butthurtz. It'll indicate a building where the enemy is by minimap/radar but it is not a full-proof way to make infiltration and sabotage of buildings an impossibility, it just alleviates the infiltrated teams' building of some timed c4 time before detonation. This right here gives nobody a reason on either side to complain thus further, because it promotes teamwork and working togetherness and removes the tedious "Check Building 1 ... 2 ... 3 & 4" every time the mine limit drops down by 1. Make defending worthwhile and engaging, not a chore with 25% chance of success 75% of the time.

How difficult would mines making green blips on the radar/minimap be? Additionally it could be a true/false option in server .ini file so it's simple to turn it on/off per server in case of glitches/bugs.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Madkill40

[Handepsilon]

That can work. Probably make it a bit like Call of Duty MW2's heartbeat sensor if possible. At least the blip delay part. It will still able to notify people but not so easily that infiltration gets deterred every single time.

[Madkill40]

1 minute ago, Handepsilon said:

That can work. Probably make it a bit like Call of Duty MW2's heartbeat sensor if possible. At least the blip delay part. It will still able to notify people but not so easily that infiltration gets deterred every single time.

Hell no!

Infiltration wouldn't get deterred every single time, but solo infiltration will be deterred as it will only become effective when the base is mostly empty which makes sense. Picture this: Solo infiltrator notices the enemy base is mostly empty, so they take out some mines and plant C4s on the building MCT, the time in which the enemy team notices the mines have gone down is 5 seconds into the C4s timer and only the closest players to that structure have 25 seconds to get to the RIGHT building, none of this hide'n'seek PeekaBOOM bullshit.

If the base isn't empty then players will be more encouraged to work as a team to infiltrate a base because solo infiltration is deterred, this enables player ability growth as well as group infiltration teaches not-so-good players the correct routes and patience.

Note: Infiltration and solo-infiltration are two different forms of infiltration, if anyone thinks they're the same then you're encouraging a broken mechanic of teamplay in Renegade-X.

[Guest Gliven]

On 11/19/2016 at 8:59 AM, Neutron said:

Personaly, I dont like Mines that are placed to block enterances. Renegade is not Call of Duty, nor Battlefield.

Plus, It makes stealth units like SBH Useless.

 

In the original Renegade players had to protect buildings, not just place random mines, poof, buildings are Auto-protected.

 

The Mines makes absolutly no sense to me, and they're dont even fit to Renegade at all.

I have a feeling you've never played the multiplayer in the original ren....or you've only played in shitty servers where people didnt know about mines

[Axesor]

Blimp. Then it would be leader disarming everyones mines. Then it will be eveybody disarming everyones mines. And then everyone maybe realizes that:

When a gaming community has developed into the belief that there is only one, precise way to do things correctly -specifically the mining- there is a problem. That there is only one reasonable way to do things effectively. That mining is no longer a game mechanic, but a procedure taken upon by players.That if all your mines are getting used the same way every game there needs to be a different way of preventing infiltration, because obviously without this stringent mining strategy players feel the game is unenjoyable without it.

And this is why mines will be the issue as long as they will be used this way as they are now. Blimp is not a solution, it just shows where the mines are. Its everytime so nice to read an enthusiastic indealism, but this has nothing to do with a teamwork. It also makes defending more easier since it shows exactly where mines are missing so "everyone" runs there. Honestly I'd rather keep mines as they are, than adding marks on radars for them.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Axesor

[Madkill40]

5 hours ago, Axesor said:

And this is why mines will be the issue as long as they will be used this way as they are now. Blimp is not a solution, it just shows where the mines are. Its everytime so nice to read an enthusiastic indealism, but this has nothing to do with a teamwork. It also makes defending more easier since it shows exactly where mines are missing so "everyone" runs there. Honestly I'd rather keep mines as they are, than adding marks on radars for them.

You'd think everyone would run there? Cute. A majority of the team would be concentrating on their own thing, the minority that choose to defend would just have a little aid in where to go so much that mines could be placed in more places than just the doorways.

Have you actually tried to actively defend a base? It's a nightmare to check buildings just to fall short of time because the game favours the infiltrator whereas a defender has a mine counter to stare at before playing the inevitable guessing game.

To say it has nothing to do with teamwork is moronic, it has everything to do with teamwork and of course it makes defending the base easier but it also means all mines don't have to be placed strictly in building doorways either as you'd see where the mines go down and as such are aware there is an enemy there or nearby. Some mines could be hidden in infantry passage ways and so long as whoever was actually aware there was a mine there will then be aware of incoming infantry. [The person being aware being the mine-placer as well as anyone who actually looks at the radar/minimap] Thus you have an effect of the blips disappearing bringing the team together to fight their enemy.

I think it'd be great if mines stopped being placed in just the building doorways, try not to get short-sighted in thinking such a minimalist idea as radar blips wouldn't make a huge impact in how we use mines on RenX. 

Radar blips for your teams' mines all the way! Infiltrators can now have an extra challenge, players shouldn't feel bad because nobody on their team knew the location of their enemy, mines can be used a little bit differently in placement because of this change, they'd be more noob-friendly. 

The blips are practical and why wouldn't GDI/Nod put GPS chips into the mines to tell them where they are? They're gonna manufacture med after med but mot put a GPS chip into every mine? C'mon now!

You want a little more balance so it's not all to the defenders favour? Okay, if the mines are EMP'd or Repair Gun'd then the blips will disappear from the enemy radar 3 - 5 seconds after the initial disarm, if the mines go off the blip disappears immediately. 

Balance the aspects of infiltration and defender because it is imbalanced, the ease of infiltration kills games and furthermore, the playerbase of new regulars, don't put one or two players' "fun" above an entire teams' enjoyment only to blame that team for "not defending the base" when most newbies barely know how, green blips on the radar give them a defenders objective. 

Blips are more practical than door hacking, door hacking can have latency or more technical issues.

Blips are more practical than lazer doorways, which is just a glorified door hack.

Blips are more practical than just letting one or more people disarm all the teams' mines.

Blips are more practical and shit over "designated mining area" bullshit predictable placements.

Blips are more practical than indoor gun turrets which could also create more technical issues. 

Blips are more practical than two different types of mine.

Radar blips for mines, 2016.

Most agree in the end that mines are as good as they can be right now which they are, so alleviate the control of mines with green radar blips and start making a difference to how they can be used within the game. Not knowing where your own teams' mines are is the bane of mines. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Madkill40

[Axesor]

"loosing the mines, someone check the doors!". I think its enough. Dont feel like defending should be easier. You do?

54 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

Blips are more practical than door hacking, door hacking can have latency or more technical issues.

Blips are more practical than lazer doorways, which is just a glorified door hack.

I think you misunderstood the point about this whole thing. Hacking the doors for stopping the laser is like current disarming the mines for.. disarming the mines.. so you can pass thro without being harmed. Hacking time = disarm time. Laser doorway does the absolute same thing as 3 mines placed in doors. Laser life and damage = 2 or 3 mines damage, depending on type of laser (window laser = 2 mines, door laser = 3 mines)

 

54 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

Not knowing where your own teams' mines are is the bane of mines. 

This is why I want to replace this mines system with something else, so you dont need to care about this anymore and you can place your mines anywhere you want. But this time mines will be vulnerable againts weapons just like AT mines are.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Axesor

[TheOlsenTwins]

Well, you can still show active laser systems on the map...

The main problem with the mining system for me is, that it enlargens the already the learning curve for Ren-X (which is already very high) and that early game rushes are not deterrable. (which makes game with less than 10 players even more pointless)

If the mining system is properly explained in a tutorial or otherwise, and some basic mines were preplaced (or something) it could stay the way it is.

 

But as this is also not easy to do, a change is probably better - if we ever want to attract and also keep more players playing Ren-X.

If we are already contempt and just say: "These fucking noobs should just learn to mine on their own" the player influx will stay low

[Luhrian]

Hey Guys,

I didn't read the whole topic, so I hope I am the first who suggest this. All mines should be visible on the overview map (M). All Players can see if someone mined very usless and they can ban him from mining. But I don't think, that we need a big change in mining.

 

But I have another suggestion. Maybe all buldings are automatically mined after 3-5 minutes. If someone disarmed the mines, you must repair the mines with a repair gun and they are ready to kill the next guy.

Edited November 21, 2016 by (Ger)Luhrian

[Axesor]

44 minutes ago, (Ger)Luhrian said:

All Players can see if someone mined very usless and they can ban him from mining.

This is very sad way of thinking.. ban someone from using mines, while mines been given to us to use them freely. Ban someone becouse game comunity decided that there is only one correct way of using mines... I want to avoid this bans, and trolls, griefers.

 

44 minutes ago, (Ger)Luhrian said:

Maybe all buldings are automatically mined after 3-5 minutes.

Already been suggested. This is by far the most straighforward and the simpliest solution to avoid problems related to the mines so Iam not against it.. but you know, it just doesnt look like serious proffesional way for fixing this problem If this was made, I would be totaly okay with it.. not good lookin but doing what it has to. Harming laser wall is not a radical change, not a single bit more than your idea with respawning mines. It would just look different and better fitting into the scale of "makig sence". For explanation: what gives more sence to you? mines popping out of the ground or harming laser in the door that can disabled via hacking a door pannel with a repair gun?

Again: respawning mines is fine suggestion. It would be just a bit weird.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Axesor

[vandal33]

I don't see any problem about defending against infiltrators. The problem is that the current system is not noob-friendly, and the elitist will start flaming them if they do it wrong. As already suggested, advanced engineers can still have their Proximity C4s but there could be a separate type  building-door mines that can only be placed at doorways (or windows, tower railings, walls etc) so new comers can do whatever they want with their proximity C4s without hampering the defense mines. And these new mines doesn't respawn automatically and players must do it manually so there still needs effort to make a building secure.

Just throwing in some suggestions.

[boxes]

Now that I think about it more, having pre-placed mines would actually make some sense. Some betas ago, mines didn't have a glow to them. Lets say every door/window has mines, and disarming or triggering them would disable their "glow", making them safe to walk through, and the only way to rearm them is to obviously use repair guns. The mine counter from the start of the game should be maxed out. I find that this way can please both audiences somewhat, the one that wants mines to stay and the other that wants them gone. 

This would:

1. Remove the mining job as a whole
2. Keep the "mines down" logic when an infiltrator is inside a buidling
3. Allow every class can re-arm mines (reptool), making bar/hon losses less severe, and removes the "30 mines in the last building" stalemate-happy strategy
4. Nerf early infantry/apc rushes

What do you guys think?

If you don't know what I'm talking about on the non-glow mines, pause this at 10:03 when he looks at the door. Basically those would be the harmless, disarmed mines. 

 

[Axesor]

54 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

What do you guys think?

I think it's acceptable compromise. Also makes sence. Mine count for each team will be different ofc, depending on the number of entrances. Charge time with rep gun needs to be adjusted so adv. engi who is constantly repairing the mine in the last building won't be absurdly OP.

Imo this is another good idea that makes sence and that actually solves current problems with the mines. I'd shorten the vote list on 3 possible options. One that votes againts any change, and two that offers actual solution and makes sence:

1. Keep mines as they are

2. Energy mines

3. Harming laser wall

Edited November 21, 2016 by Axesor

[Madkill40]

Jeff's latest suggestion or radar/minimap blips are now the only two most practical options. 

The amount of people who would probably not rearm a non-glowing mine would likely be similar to the amount of people that wouldn't check the radar/minimap for missing green blips. 

It's at least advisable that the green blips on the radar get a chance to be tested before the mines are practically overhauled, as every other suggested change for mines in some way overhauls them.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Madkill40

[Axesor]

^ unbeliveable  I like how you try avoid to consider laser wall at all cost, while The only difference between laser wall and jeffs energy mines is that laser wall could automatically recharge itself after xx seconds if its not hacked, while energy mines needs to be always recharged manually  This is literally the only difference

Iam sad to see that you take me like ur opponent, while it's in our interests to discuss and find the best solution. Iam still waiting for cons and pros and constructive discussion since the idea about laser wall was thrown out. Yet I havent read a single comment about why you find it as such a terrible idea

Edited November 21, 2016 by Axesor

[boxes]

Laser wall was a good idea in the way it functions but would be very weird in a logical sense in the fact that walking inside laser beams would not affect friendly infantry and only enemy ones, and also doesn't match up with the flak/kevlar armor features. This would also effectively remove proxy mines, which obviously some people won't be happy about. Including proxy mines with laser doors would basically add another level of defense that attackers have to break through. Having lasers on windows or ramps would obviously be very awkward, particularly strip windows or ramps that aren't even bothered with, such as bar. It would also require a lot more development work.

There also are certain tricks that can be done with mines, such as when mines are behind doors, sticking your med tank turret through a door would pop the mines for nearby infantry to run in.

[Axesor]

39 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

very weird in a logical sense in the fact that walking inside laser beams would not affect friendly infantry and only enemy ones

Well, I'll take this one as a joke mines cant be triggered by friendly units too. Teamkill wih weapons and running over with vehicles doesnt kill friendly unit too. I dont feel like this lacks of logic.. I can see lack of logic in ur idea too, but this is realy not the issue what we should discuss about. We both suggested a thing that has logic in its way of how its working.. teamkill with this is impossible thx to special chip in the pocket or whatever lol.. as i said, its not important.

As about laser, its not like its burning one. It just like detect a movement of unauthorized person and then it strikes. Boom, energy discharge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKsYBew_D5I&t=1m45s 1:45

 

There will be laser wall in the windows and doors only.. not between sandbags at BAR or on ramps.. its not necessary to place it there. As for airstip, one laser wall can be in the doors and the second one inside, protecting the entrance to the "elevator room". Iam shocked that you've been considering to place your fixed energy mines in such a spots like ramps and stair, while in current state we call this "luxury". Mines dont need to cover everything..

This would also effectively remove proxy mines, which obviously some people won't be happy about. 

Including proxy mines with laser doors would basically add another level of defense that attackers have to break through

Yeah.. ur idea too. Then we have to decide if we want to keep the mines or not.

The devs effort is indeed required for this. This is the only thing that I agree with so far. 

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Axesor

[Agent]

Laser walls seem to be the most attractive option thus far. Since players hate the idea of removing mines entirely, this would probably have to be combined with making mines a personal weapon (same style as remote c4 and AT mines) that also can't be placed on friendly buildings (after all, you can't very well have explosives attached to your buildings! That would damage them!). Laser walls keep the gameplay that mines currently provide intact, while eliminating the team-hampering potential that comes with mines. If people genuinely enjoy mines for their defensive role, this is the route to go. Mines have no other positive role right now, other than frustrating players. As far as difficulty of implementation, that would have to be investigated further but certainly it couldn't be too difficult.

The next best alternative would be my previous recommendation of making mines a purchasable item, and removing the limit. This is probably the easiest way to eliminate the mine limit.

[Xtractor]

I like the Door Laser thing  (MB a PP destroyed kill all power to laser doors )+ the purchasable mines only by Techs with  a limit per team

eg 12 mines per team ,only  3 at the time can be bought by a player and by only tech-hotwire

Edited November 22, 2016 by Xtractor

[Handepsilon]

Thinking about it though, how would you put lasers on HoN windows? Sans removing the glass window by default that is

[Agent]

I was thinking there would be a laser wall for each wall of windows (so 3 laser walls covering 7 windows).

[Sire]

Just to update my opinions on the discussions...

1. Laser Doors & Windows
- It will be a little different, but I'll be up for it. I guess Lasers will do universal damage, but are they a hard blocker that needs to be disabled or a soft one that can be tanked through with a high HP character?
- However, like always, I would like Hotwires & Techs to keep proxy mines, but at a personal limit, like AT Mines. Proxies can be placed anywhere, and if they want to use their limited mines to fortify a structure door, let them do so. Mines still have plenty of counters.

2. Pre-Placed Mines [Sire's Pick]
- Similar to the Laser Doors & Windows, but with more explosions and mimicking the original mining style, but automated and streamlined.
- Personally, out of the current suggestions, I like pre-placed the most if the current system is to be replaced. It still has the feeling of Renegade with mined structures and their counters (Repair Gun, Repair Tool, EMP, Free Infantry Suicides) while hopefully being a more newbie friendly process to understand.
- However, like always, I would like Hotwires & Techs to keep proxy mines, but at a personal limit, like AT Mines. Proxies can be placed anywhere, and if they want to use their limited mines to fortify a structure door, let them do so. Mines still have plenty of counters.

3. Current System (Hotwire & Tech Miners)
- I still believe this is more of a communication and education issue, but it seems this route is not worth the effort for veteran players, instead opting for a replacement to the mining system.
- I am still content with the system, even when I suffer losses to improper mining (full mines but a structure is infiltrated and dies anyway). However, as I do not play regularly, I do not have as much built up rage at this compared to others and am simply content to continue playing the match or move to the next one.

4: Mine Radar
- I am somewhat against this idea. I rather have the team pay attention to the mine counter, say "Mines!", and the defenders clear out each structure to see if a building has been infiltrated, shouting out clear buildings or indicating one in need of repair. Yes, infiltrators can change the game, but if spotted they are normally easy to deal with.

[KrypTheBear]

9 hours ago, Agent said:

 that also can't be placed on friendly buildings (after all, you can't very well have explosives attached to your buildings! That would damage them!).

I'd really love to see remote spam no longer being a thing in buildings. Mining aside, remote spam is the best way how to deal with infiltrators by using 0 effort. Hell even 1k units die from that way too easily (inb4 get flak, you won't outsustain the c4 spam). So if we aren't allowing any mines in buildings anymore, then remotes and timeds should be also prohibited on allied buildings.

I like Jeff's idea. Predeployed mines that can be recharged. We should probably restart the vote and shorten it down to fewer choices.

[Axesor]

2 hours ago, Sire said:

are they a hard blocker that needs to be disabled or a soft one that can be tanked through with a high HP character?

I dont know how about doors laser but window one could be tanked as it would have effectivness of 2 mines, so I guess high hp character could survive it, but kills most of infantry types. For example Havoc and Sydney could survive this window laser.

Doors laser would have effectivness of 3 mines. It means that lasers life is equal to 3 mines damage. After touching it, the laser discharges its power depending on characters life. If its power is not all consumed yet, it starts to flicker and then recharges back after XX seconds. Door laser can be turned off by hacking door panel with rep gun/tool.

As for HON windows, there could be a laser wall for each window with its effectivness of 2 mines. Glass cloud be entirely removed.

This is the example of how laser wall could look like 

[KrypTheBear]

49 minutes ago, Axesor said:

I dont know how about doors laser but window one could be tanked as it would have effectivness of 2 mines, so I guess high hp character could survive it, but kills most of infantry types. For example Havoc and Sydney could survive this window laser.

Doors laser would have effectivness of 3 mines. It means that lasers life is equal to 3 mines damage. After touching it, the laser discharges its power depending on characters life. If its power is not all consumed yet, it starts to flicker and then recharges back after XX seconds. Door laser can be turned off by hacking door panel with rep gun/tool.

As for HON windows, there could be a laser wall for each window with its effectivness of 2 mines. Glass cloud be entirely removed.

This is the example of how laser wall could look like 

What makes mines so dangerous isn't simply the danger it poses to a single infiltrator, the splash damage can kill entire groups of hotwires/techies if they go off right next to them. That's something the laser wall could never accomplish. It would prevent a single infiltrator in a group of, for example, four infiltrators. You still have then three infiltrators, and three remotes are more than sufficient in terms of taking out a building. Not to mention if these three infiltrators are hotties/techs, then the remotes themselves are enough to cause critical permanent damage to a building. 
It would buff infiltration way too much in terms of group infiltrations. 

[Axesor]

@KrypTheBear this is true. The only thing that compensates this is, that the one who sacrifice himself will defenitely die from that laser and 2nd one gets hurt from remaining energy. Also I dont see a reason why wouldnt the energy discharge from laser be capable of small aoe. Have you seen the video that I've posted? Indeed this aoe woulndt be as big as from mines, but it would kill everyone if they literally try to mass rush in the doors, sticking too close to each other.

Group infiltration will be always effective no matter what protects the door.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Axesor

[Xtractor]

As much I like the cool laser system ,I can only see many difficulties to get the system right.

-group infiltrators (Damage distribution)

-SBH entering At the same time  of a GDi players

-Open door Block or not block bulliets and tanks  firing

-Mining allow us to see if an infiltration is in progress (missing mines)

-...

Laser system must be as realistic as possible ,and making doing stuff that arent ,would not be good .

EDIT:

What I may see more is a Laser\bullet  celling turret ( power plant dependant) place in a strategic location in buildings  .

That when activated by an intruder its shooting the in range intruder(s) and  power on a signal ligth (mb like police one) outside/attached of that building

So you can see from anywhere in the Base wich buildings is been intruded and no need to look at mines count .

And this system would (imo) be much more easy to code and wouldnt alter the already system in place (like Door open shooting and mining doors )

 

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by Xtractor

[Axesor]

@Xtractor good points, and fixing those things would require more devs effort, so: What if...

What if Jeff's "energy" mines were placed instead of lasers, but everything else would stay the same, like:

• 2 mines per window, 3 mines per door.
• door mines are connected to the door panel and can be hacked to turn mines off
• automatically recharges itself after XX seconds after being used, if not hacked
• mine count = count of active "energy" mines only. To recognize that some building been infiltrated, or hacked, or someone been trying to...

Its AOE potential to kill group of infantry staying too close to each other will prevent from mass infiltration, as been mentioned.

This would no longer be called mines as we know them, but more like fixed building harming device, that does not explodes, but releases strong energy that kills everything alive staying close to it.. becouse othervise.. logically.. it would explode into peaces (not important but u know.. ppl need the logical explanation for everything :D)

Edited November 22, 2016 by Axesor

[Calvin]

I still think laser walls would make renegade-x completely different, maybe we could nerf the proxy mines and higher the mine limit? Not that the current mine system is broken or anything new players might mine wrong a few times but that happens in every game people learn etc.. it's hard to fuck up the mines except the hon is pretty hard to mine correctly but if you show a new player in private they will get it and mine correctly. so simple  I would hate seeing the mine system change again or anything. 

[Axesor]

@poi ❄ People dont mine wrong. Its just that veteran game comunity developed a belief that there is only 1 correct way of using mines. Lowering the mine damage and increasing its count will only result to more mines used and required to be used in doors, as it was few betas ago.. there was 5-6 mines in doors and then it was reduced to 3 becouse the damage was increased and max count decreased. It literally doesnt matter.

After changing the mine system, you can use your mines freely, but they will no longer be invulnerable to weapons damage and buildings would have its own fixed defences that nobody can screw up, not even as a newbie, or troll, or evil Grinch. And its very intuitive.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Axesor

[KrypTheBear]

6 minutes ago, Axesor said:

automatically recharges itself after XX seconds after being used, if not hacked

And this is the point where base defense becomes even more boring than it already is. 
Base infantry defense would just be thinned down to "don't touch my terminals" and "stare at laser walls". Jeffs implementation still includes "Where exactly did we lose mines?" "Did we lose any extra mines?" and "We need to repair the mines". With (your idea of) laser walls it would be like: We ended the attack. End of story. 

I also don't see the "AOE" potential. A laser isn't an explosive device. A laser is a beam of energy. 

[Sn4ke]

The current mining system is fine. The only thing that might be changed is who's able to disarm team mines (I suggested a defence officer via ingame vote, as this is no job for the commander).

Is there the just ONE and ONLY way to mine corrently Axesor? I don't think so. It depends on the game situation / players count and your opponent.

Mining HoN on Flying maps is hard true. But in my opinion using always the so called "corrcect" way to mine makes it even simpler for sneakers as they always know where the mines are.

Be innovative. Surprise the sneakers..

And if someone is not willing to learn at least the basics about the RenX mining system, then this person will probably quit RenX anyway.

[Axesor]

@KrypTheBear I was no longer talking about laser wall, lol. I was actually talking about jeffs fixed mines.. just read that again

In regarding to this, after attack, you have to check if panels are ok, or defend the building for a few seconds if energy from the mines were consumed

Edited November 22, 2016 by Axesor

[Calvin]

8 minutes ago, Axesor said:

@poi ❄ People dont mine wrong. Its just that veteran game comunity developed a belief that there is only 1 correct way of using mines. Lowering the mine damage and increasing its count will only result to more mines used and required to be used in doors, as it was few betas ago.. there was 5-6 mines in doors and then it was reduced to 3 becouse the damage was increased and max count decreased. It literally doesnt matter.

After changing the mine system, you can use your mines freely, but they will no longer be invulnerable to weapons damage and buildings would have its own fixed defences that nobody can screw up, not even as a newbie, or troll, or evil Grinch. And its very intuitive.

@Axesor  @DarkSn4ke I mean if the current mine system works in someway why change the mine system then? it's just so random and a waste for the devs to focuss on this, they have probably better stuff to do and better priority's. i suggest the devs to drop this and keep it how it is right now. there's literally no reason for the mine system to change at the current state. :> 

Edited November 22, 2016 by poi ❄

[Xtractor]

Me Also I think mines should stay and be place where we want as a Suprise strategic system.

Always fun to kill someone that wasnt expecting a mine placed somewhere lol ..But making them limited and  pursasable would be a must .

@Axesor

The energy or hacking doors and the laser wall system look to me complicated ,non friendly coding ,and doesnt bring enough  improvement to add it as a game mechanic

Edited November 22, 2016 by Xtractor