Mining

[Handepsilon]

TBH current mining system makes mining an 'advanced technique' that requires educating the newbie. The problem is that mining is also essential at the same time as base defense, not to mention the different mining techniques for each maps. This should not be happening. Just as offense tactics can be picked up by newbies quickly, so should the defense. IMO defenders' main essential duty should be reduced into patrolling bases and check buildings for infiltrator/beacons, oh.... and repping of course.

Since I really can't think of new ideas, I'd pick turrets or pre-placed mines idea, with alarms installed that fires locally on the compromised building.

[TheOlsenTwins]

45 minutes ago, Handepsilon said:

TBH current mining system makes mining an 'advanced technique' that requires educating the newbie. The problem is that mining is also essential at the same time as base defense, not to mention the different mining techniques for each maps. This should not be happening. Just as offense tactics can be picked up by newbies quickly, so should the defense. IMO defenders' main essential duty should be reduced into patrolling bases and check buildings for infiltrator/beacons, oh.... and repping of course.

Since I really can't think of new ideas, I'd pick turrets or pre-placed mines idea, with alarms installed that fires locally on the compromised building.

I agree 100% - I don't care what system is used in the end, be it predefined mine zones, laser systems... The main problem is, that as a newbie it is hard enough to learn all the units and the layout of the maps without having to learn about the specifics of mining which building were exactly.

It is frustrating to see a building go down without any presignal - if a newb sees the building def systems (to take care of) it is immediately clear what to do...

[RoundShades]

To be fair, I feel it'd be HELLA easy to get a building to call out attacked from team mines. EMPs don't damage structures but call out attack. Make mines create a trigger area that ignores friendly fire. Then they too would trigger building alert in their detonation.

Bonus points for making disarmed ones still trigger alert. More bonus points for creating new alert specifically for mines that can only be triggered by mine-trigger, and having mines 100% trigger the alert no matter how many structures get it simultaneously, so "building attack" won't "drown out" mine alert.

You could even do something with spotting volumes, where you have mines call out their own deaths relevant to the nearest spotting volume.

All of that, however, makes a base unsneakable. You have to ask yourself, how much a defender advantage you want to give the defender? Does he need a 100% alert? Does he need an alert at all? Is "keeping watch of your building" a personal obligation? I mean, if you play badly, you get bad results, and "wide-open building" sounds like "careless playing".

At the very least, mine team alerts that are building-specific, should come with a mine limit reduction of 1 per door and 2 less spare for tunnels, on applicable maps. Or, less preferably, a damage reduction.

[Handepsilon]

The problem here is not the alertness, but rather the complexity of mining system. It's not obvious enough to be picked up by newbies without the aid of other players. Atm, mining is a big part of base defense, but at the same time proper mining is too complex for its' role. It doesn't matter if the building quickly alert the newbies, it's not gonna help them mine better. Instead they'll be banging their heads trying to figure out why his mines never do their job until failures after failures.

As if this is not enough, someone also said this a long time ago : mines irl are placed outside the buildings, not inside.

And these are just the cases of basic minings, I haven't touched the subject of Barracks sandbag/door mining choice, Airstrip/HoN's windows, ramp minings, base-defense map minings, all of which are even more complicated than the everyday plant-at-door mining.

As such, I'd really like to see the old mining systems overhauled, if not entirely replaced.

Here's my take inspired by ideas from others :

1. Ceiling turrets : Deters rushes coming at the door. The gunshot sounds are already loud enough to catch the ears of any defenders. Respawns after intervals (or can be repurchased from respective building's PT). The issue here would be turret placement, as there will be buildings that are more complicated that others, eg. : HoN

2. Pre-deployed mines : Old proxy mine can be removed entirely or be used AT-esque. The pre-deployed mines are initially set up on the doors, working like the current mines except there's no counter. If there's a breach on the line, the respective team's player will see ghosted mine image indicating the gap. I have a few ideas in mind on the mine-fixing system

• Buyable Mine-planter pack, plants at the gapped line of mines with deployables channel interval.
• Press Use button to replant, channel interval to prevent replant-spamming. Target the ghosted mine image to replant mine on that location, making the system repairs one mine at a time.
• Place a button in Purchase Terminal menu to buy a mine replant on the building the player is in. Has cooldown to prevent replant spamming

3. Lock doors for opposing team, add HP on glass windows. Suggested by Axesor once I believe. Can use EMP or Repair Gun to hack the door, causing it to open naturally, or can use weapons(C4) to blow the door open permanently (or longer interval than using Repair Gun), but resulting in locally fired alarm (Beacon sound radius should be enough). Spies can open the door as if it's their own team's door.

All of these would force the requirement of dedicated defender(s), which imo should be how the game is played. The systems are also easy enough to be picked up by newbies

[vandal33]

How about we add new base defense technique instead on relying a lot on mines which can be a problem by over mining. I'm in favor of those turrets if the current mine system has it flaws but I like how it is, I played the game a lot and usually, people just didn't care about missing mines or bother to check after seeing the 'player is over-mining near ...' announcement.

Current mine is fine. Yes, new players over mining is a problem but the suggestions to new mining system will have problems as well, we're just running away from dealing with the newbie problem and then face another problem in the new system. I just think we need more active defenders to check on mines and let bad miners know about their faulty mine placements. At one point, these people will have to learn about proper mining, let's stop giving excuses and deal with this. If you lose a game because of bad mines eventhough you tried teaching those newbies, try harder next time. Be aware of your team's mines, use the mine ban to make them learn faster, react faster to over-mining warnings, etc. It's always the "oh it's his fault, not mine, let's blame the system..."

 

[Gamma]

It's simply evident that in all the games you need to learn how to play. This system works well since 2002 and all eventually learned how to mine the base properly. Why do we need to simplify the game? Defending is a large part of this game, as well as attack. Someone is good at attack and someone is good at defending. If you don't watch the mines counter, it's only your problem. The problem consists in overmining, but not in mines. Just help the beginners understand the principles of mining.

[Axesor]

19 minutes ago, Handepsilon said:

3. Lock doors for opposing team, add HP on glass windows. Suggested by Axesor once I believe.

After a discussion it came out to be complete bullcrap and I admit it.

 

Posted January 15 · Report post

This is my idea:

1. Mines could be damaged by weapons (direct hits only)

2. Replace team mine limit with player mine limit

3. 1 laser damage = current 1 mine damage. After 1 laser been used, it recharges for XX second (like 15), cant be repaired to speed it up

4. Control panel (scanner on the picture next to the door) can be hacked or repaired with rep gun just like silo. Also disabled with emp for XX seconds. It will stop the lasers.

5. 2 lasers in each window with no control panel

Intuitive, noob friendly - awesome replacement for current mines use. Flawless.

 

[Handepsilon]

10 hours ago, Gamma said:

Just help the beginners understand the principles of mining.

 

11 hours ago, vandal33 said:

....let bad miners know about their faulty mine placements

.....eventhough you tried teaching those newbies, try harder next time.

.....use the mine ban to make them learn faster

This is the problem. You, an average player, must teach newcomers how to mine properly. If I was a newbie, I would be asking, if these mines are such a big deal, why didn't the game ever tell me so?

[Henk]

17 hours ago, Axesor said:

After a discussion it came out to be complete bullcrap and I admit it.

 

Posted January 15 · Report post

This is my idea:

1. Mines could be damaged by weapons (direct hits only)

2. Replace team mine limit with player mine limit

3. 1 laser damage = current 1 mine damage. After 1 laser been used, it recharges for XX second (like 15), cant be repaired to speed it up

4. Control panel (scanner on the picture next to the door) can be hacked or repaired with rep gun just like silo. Also disabled with emp for XX seconds. It will stop the lasers.

5. 2 lasers in each window with no control panel

Intuitive, noob friendly - awesome replacement for current mines use. Flawless.

 

Ah you beat me to it

 

This is similar to what I had in mind, some things I would do differently.

- To keep the value of the Advanced Engineers (Tech and Hotwire), the control panel should only be fixable by that class.

- They should however be active from the start of the game to prevent early rushes.

- If the laser system is disarmed by hacking the control panel, the laser shouldn't recharge (So only recharge when they are "broken" by walking through them)

- Hear a laser sound when an enemy player walks through the lasers, hear a sound similar to the mine disarm sound when the system is hacked (maybe just slightly louder because you would hear it only once)

- I think the windows should also have disarmable lasers, for the HoN, put 1 control panel on each of the 3 sides. Maybe give the windows slightly weaker laser walls.

- I was thinking instead of 3 beams, have one wall of lasers, that starts flickering and sparking when it's damaged. 

- Hacking the system doesn't make the lasers flicker and spark, it would simply go from on to off when the hack is completed.

[Gamma]

6 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

You, an average player, must teach newcomers how to mine properly.

The easiest way is to see how others do it and the general principles will become clear. In most cases, players use mines correctly.
It seems to me that the various schemes of mining makes the game more diverse, it adds more strategy. Otherwise, it becomes more and more like an ordinary shooter.

[j0g32]

Maybe we should be more clear what this discussion is about:

1. Mining System (and how newcomers can learn its complexities about proper placement)
2. Base/building defence in general

I know that mining has become the core mechanics of base defence, but tbh mining is as passive as any other defence system that is currently in place. Once all mines are placed, nobody is actually "defending the base" - some may be "maintaining" the integrity of this passive defence system. Yet, my association with "defending the base" looks more like this:

 

As I mentioned earlier, this whole discussion seems to stem from the fact that defensive gameplay relies to heavily on mines. Maybe it might be worth to encourage manual defence, i.e. payers who are "actively" guarding structures are given defensive points. This could be either directly (X points for every minute spent in/close to a building), or indirectly by rewarding a kill with a defensive bonus, if it was taken while on guard - some other games call this a "defensive kill".

Seriously, take a step back - the problem that we are discussing here is not the mining system in itself, it#s the OVERRELIANCE of the defensive gameplay on it that we should address....

[Handepsilon]

10 hours ago, Gamma said:

The easiest way is to see how others do it and the general principles will become clear. In most cases, players use mines correctly.
It seems to me that the various schemes of mining makes the game more diverse, it adds more strategy. Otherwise, it becomes more and more like an ordinary shooter.

There's a difference between 'learning from others is easier' and 'learning from others is the only way'. The way I see mining at the moment is the latter.

I'm going to agree with j0g. The defense atm is too mine-reliant. This is a difficult problem to address though, as most people would prefer going offensive rather than defensive, especially if you're on the winning side as most action would fall on enemy's doorsteps

[Gamma]

44 minutes ago, Handepsilon said:

The defense atm is too mine-reliant.

Renegade is a tactical shooter, so you need to use tactics not only for the attack, but also to protect the base. If mines is replaced with, f.e., ceiling turrets, there will be less tactics. Mines as is are doing their job well. 

What about learning... I fully agree with Yosh:

On 02.10.2016 at 8:10 AM, yosh56 said:

There will always be trolls, and there will always be a need for a tutorial no matter what. As far as I'm concerned now, at least the system in place, most people know how to use, and it takes all of like a day of playing to have it figured out. 

 

[Handepsilon]

I kind of fail to see anything 'tactical' about setting up static defense at an exact same place every single time, using exact same layout that you would only know from playing with other player, unless you want to get your whole team mad at you for mining at different places

Meanwhile the offensive side, the infiltration, is really open ended, pretty much able to be picked up even through offline playing, and few to no one really gets so mad at you utterly failing it so much that they relinquish your tools.

Besides that, as already pointed, you don't really see anyone actually defending aside from firing their repair gun on the MCT and replacing mines over and over. You rarely see people actually actively defending the base with their guns as opposed to the automated defense that are mines.

Now where's the tactical part? That you can place mines wherever you deem necessary? Oh no, there's already predefined methods for that. You do it differently and your privilege gets booted. That you got to watch these mines counting down? Where's the tactics in that if the only people in the base are the ones recently spawning or just happens to be repping buildings?

I don't know about today's games but in all my times of playing, I rarely see anyone actually becoming dedicated defender unless their base got fucked up or it's PUG.

[Axesor]

I was unsure if I really want to join the discussion, becouse... simply, nothing is going to happen.

I remember very possitive reactions on this mines replacement and there is a thing:

On 12. 8. 2016 at 4:23 PM, yosh56 said:

Would prefer someone to build this into a map more than anything.

https://renegade-x.com/forums/topic/74783-another-proposal-for-the-mining-system/

- No matter if you have found a golden river, if you won't realize your idea to test it out, nobody will.

 

Also I'd like to mention this great post:

On 17. 1. 2016 at 0:44 PM, Veezo said:

I've made this profile specifically after seeing this post. I feel that when situations come up like this in a game's development you need to take a look at the objectives taking place.

When a gaming community has developed into the belief that there is only one, precise way to do things correctly-- specifically the mining-- there is a problem.

This isn't a problem of new players or veterans but that there is only one reasonable way to do things effectively.

The problem is that mining is no longer a game mechanic, but a procedure taken upon by players.

And I'm sure the noobs want to find out what they are doing wrong just about as much as the vets want to yell at them for it.

If all your mines are getting used the same way every game there needs to be a different way of preventing stealth assaults: because obviously without this stringent mining strategy players feel the game is unenjoyable without it.

On a side note mines are intended for the field that why we have both Anti-Tank and Proxi Mines, and in other games its pretty damn fun to f*ck with the tanks rolling into the field.

I'm going to leave the suggestion of door-guards up in the air because it needs a bit of balancing, but mines should get a timer, and I think 180 seconds is a perfect setting for this. Perhaps you could make it adjustable if some would prefer. But when and if mines are going to be used in the field and have an entity limit there needs to be something regulating that players have the chance to use a game mechanic as part of their strategy. (and we don't have 30 mines in god-knows-where).

Thanks for hearing me out.

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Axesor

[Madkill40]

Original Renegade had security access levels on buildings' doors in single-player. In RenX you could modify this and allow repairs guns to hack doors to gain access or shoot it enough to gain access, leaving mines free to use wherever else.

A Spy could then be able to access these doors without an issue, making them more deadly in a team that is communicating. (i.e. Holding the door open like a true gentleman)

I wouldn't really expect this to happen, but that's your way around.

[j0g32]

13 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

Original Renegade had security access levels on buildings' doors in single-player.

Good idea, actually. Or you could jam them with EMP.

Maybe also let infantry drop security keys/cards after being killed (not upon every death though). The enemy could then pick up the key and open doors just like a spy.

This should be very limited, i.e. not every kill leads to security access, and the pickup should disappear within 5-10 seconds. Maybe certain "techniques" have a higher probability of dropping such pickup items, e.g. stealth kill with pistol and without the enemy firing a single shot at intruder, or sniper kill from a distance, where someone else would have to pick up the key in time.

[Handepsilon]

Good suggestion, though it might promote player killing rather than following the objective. Not sure if this is actually a good thing

[Madkill40]

10 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

 though it might promote player killing rather than following the objective. 

Wat?

[Handepsilon]

10 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

Wat?

It's just my feelings. You know, killing infantries instead of rolling tanks to the field

I think this is worth trying actually, if someone would have time to create a mutator for it.

[Henk]

^ Running in when the door is opened by a defender is a problem with that idea.

Building defense should be simple to understand, self-explanatory even, lasers with a control panel that has a health bar and a notification of what you should do with it, like MCT's and PT's have, is pretty clear.

Read Axesor's and my posts and try to imagine this idea, I personally think this would be the best solution.
Maybe I can try to make it in Kismet, I have next weekend off.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Henk

[Axesor]

3 hours ago, Henk said:

Maybe I can try to make it in Kismet, I have next weekend off.

Wow that would be great. Making a simulation with a thin cylinder and transparent material that represents laser, deals damage and recharges every few seconds after use should be enough. Making the mines vincible can be done through the simple mutator.

The most challenging part would be making it recognize the team and connect it to the panel somehow.

[Henk]

I know how to make it recognize the team, not sure yet about dealing damage and linking it up to the panel but I'm gonna try.

Proximity Mines could stay in, but work more like AT-Mines, so connected to certain classes, max 3 per player, and maybe less damage.

[Madkill40]

11 hours ago, Henk said:

^ Running in when the door is opened by a defender is a problem with that idea.

Only if the defender is AFK but the doors could just go on lock-down when an enemy is detected nearby, it's an idea that still makes more sense than your over the top laser defense girders for both teams.

 

[Henk]

I run in together with enemy infantry pretty often..

[Axesor]

Madkill, I suggested something like ur idea 1 and half year ago. Suggestion was also more detailed. You wont belive how much hate and how much flaws that idea had. 

Lasers are 100% replacement and alternative for current building protection based on mines. The difference is that laser door protection is more intuitive, noob friendly and cant be trolled and/or griefed.

Your idea is indeed based on some kind of logic, but its too risky and big gamechanging thing, while lasers are just replacement and we all can be sure that nothing can go wrong with it. It's bet on winners head.

So please, if you think that it has no sence, I'd like to know why.

[RoundShades]

I never saw a big flaw with switching to blast doors. If you're going to do lasers, don't waste dev time and just have auto-spawning mines that do the same.

If doing blast doors, give them a health bar, a health regen, when fully damaged, they auto-open and remain, when fully healed they are allowed to close again. If you sneak in behind defenders, then that's their fault, and if a tank raid comes in and shells a door, then make the door able to survive a few shells, so the defender can actively repair. Really, mines are way too hardline, blast doors are more bypassable, yet less punishing on loss of a hon/bar, it just requires more defender presence.

[Henk]

If you're going to do blast doors, don't waste dev time and just make laser doors that are worth the dev time. 

[Axesor]

6 hours ago, YagiHige said:

I never saw a big flaw with switching to blast doors. If you're going to do lasers, don't waste dev time and just have auto-spawning mines that do the same.

Iam glad that you've been on the side of blastable doors the whole time. But what about windows and emp? Ye it wont be hard to solve.. but...Trully there wasnt a big flaws in that suggestion, but its one of those gamechanging things that would require learning a new tactics, which.. as we know, people dont like much.

Auto spamming mines is indeed simple solution based on some kind of logic and would work too, with the similar effect as lasers would bring. But damn, if Henk could really make at least simplistic simulation of lasers or one laser wall as he mentioned, that wouod be awesome. It would also keep mines for players to use in the strategical spots on the map. It would also open the option ror purchaseable mines, that would appreciate Agent for example, as it was her idea to make mines purchaseable for everyone.

[Madkill40]

Lets replace mines with something else that has to be placed by a player, because that helps the argument of accidental newb abuse...

 

Here's something that could actually help and doesn't require much dev-effort, make the mines' disarm sound A LOT louder.

Make the mines' explosion sound effect A LOT louder.

Then we can stop blaming mines and just blame the players for not defending their own god damn base.

[vandal33]

I'm ok with having a separate mine for doors. Tripwire mines that can only be placed at doors by adv. engineers. Leave the proximity C4s alone, that way, newcomers over-mining won't be a problem.

[RoundShades]

On 10/14/2016 at 3:51 AM, YagiHige said:

All of that, however, makes a base unsneakable. You have to ask yourself, how much a defender advantage you want to give the defender? Does he need a 100% alert? Does he need an alert at all? Is "keeping watch of your building" a personal obligation? I mean, if you play badly, you get bad results, and "wide-open building" sounds like "careless playing".

At the very least, mine team alerts that are building-specific, should come with a mine limit reduction of 1 per door and 2 less spare for tunnels, on applicable maps. Or, less preferably, a damage reduction.

Like I said before, an increase in sound, or anything that makes it building-specific alert, should probably not also kill the enemy in 1 explosion, or have enough mines to place enough to kill 2-3 a door. Right now, they are death-deterrents with a vague alarm, if they are specific-alarms then they should be vaguely damaging and not catastrophically lethal.

[Madkill40]

4 hours ago, YagiHige said:

Like I said before, an increase in sound, or anything that makes it building-specific alert, should probably not also kill the enemy in 1 explosion, or have enough mines to place enough to kill 2-3 a door. Right now, they are death-deterrents with a vague alarm, if they are specific-alarms then they should be vaguely damaging and not catastrophically lethal.

If a mine explodes, that is a bad infiltrator.

If a mine is disarmed, that being the mine disarm noise is modified to be louder and can actually be heard from a moderate distance, then a 2 second sound effect that is ignored boils down to bad defending instead of whatever excuse you peanuts keep coming up with. 

Just to make it very clear to you  I am literally referring to the noise the mines already make when disarmed to be turned up a few notches - this at least gives the defender a bit more to go on, by hearing the the mines going down from a distance this can eliminate two buildings from inspection at best, this also reduces the infiltrators ability to destroy a building -BY THEMSELVES- a window of opportunity instead of a door. 

Do you have any idea how inane it is to guess which of the 3 - 4 buildings where mines have been disarmed? In which case it can take longer than 30 seconds to locate the correct structure at which point you are making defending near-impossible, when actively defending a base boils down to either a good guess or convenient luck is where the line should be drawn, so lets up the disarm sound effect of mines to be heard from beyond a building because lets face it they're placed mostly in doorways and they always sound like they're disarmed through concrete even though you can be literally around the corner of mostly metal buildings. [Let that sink in]

What's wrong with the mining system is a defender has no clue other than a good guess or convenient luck against an infiltrators most of the time, the issue is not randoms trolling the server, it is a lot of people not admitting to failure and not admitting that they did not actively defend the base.

Ask yourselves this, how many times has the person who quickly talks shit about mines is commonly not in the god damn base defending? 

This bullshit pandering of trying to promote a new system to people who won't admit to failure is just wrong.

Increase the volume of the mine disarm sound effect and be done with it. Mining system fixed. The end.

Example of hearing distance: If I am outside the barracks sandbag walls on C&C Walls I want to be able to hear a very faint sound effect of mines being disarmed at the back of the Refinery. That's the maximum distance players should be able to hear mines being disarmed, so lets start there and slowly work it backwards if that makes it too easy to defend. [It won't, because the root of the problem is still people not actively defending the base when they should which will be highlighted moreso if this MINOR CHANGE is made]

/thread

[TheOlsenTwins]

Honestly, i have no problem with the mining explode or disarm sound and i dont know how the disscusion turned in this direction. I only have a problem with the non intuitive mining system and its inherent overmining by newbies/trolls. Every 7 lost pub games, a game is lost ONLY due to stupid mining/overmining/lack of understanding where to put the mines which is just really frustrating...

In a PUG- like game, the mining system is alright, which is a bit of a problem in this thread, as it seems that several ppl in this thread mostly argue due to their experience in PUG games. (with 99% very good players)

The mechanics should be, however not targetted at pro players only, but also at new players. (If we ever want more than 1 active server...

(any new system could have the same alarm volume IMO, there s no problem with that..)

 

[RoundShades]

8 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

If a mine explodes, that is a bad infiltrator.

If a mine is disarmed, that being the mine disarm noise is modified to be louder and can actually be heard from a moderate distance, then a 2 second sound effect that is ignored boils down to bad defending instead of whatever excuse you peanuts keep coming up with. 

Just to make it very clear to you  I am literally referring to the noise the mines already make when disarmed to be turned up a few notches - this at least gives the defender a bit more to go on, by hearing the the mines going down from a distance this can eliminate two buildings from inspection at best, this also reduces the infiltrators ability to destroy a building -BY THEMSELVES- a window of opportunity instead of a door. 

Do you have any idea how inane it is to guess which of the 3 - 4 buildings where mines have been disarmed? In which case it can take longer than 30 seconds to locate the correct structure at which point you are making defending near-impossible, when actively defending a base boils down to either a good guess or convenient luck is where the line should be drawn, so lets up the disarm sound effect of mines to be heard from beyond a building because lets face it they're placed mostly in doorways and they always sound like they're disarmed through concrete even though you can be literally around the corner of mostly metal buildings. [Let that sink in]

The argument of 1-man-building-kill-OP is a different balance point entirely. Make c4 do critical but not total damage then. I've suggested this many a time in the past.

The argument of mines making more sound, there is little grey area between a vague mine limit number showing a missing mine, and a very directional noise. Then, you now add a new mechanic of "how much did player invest in sound system", where PUGs start using turtle beaches, and pubs are still deaf dumb idiots.

If you want mines to be more specific than they already are, by any stretch of the word, might as well make them precisely specific and in-your-face about it, while reducing their actual damage and number. Then, the defender kills them. The infiltrator can still play mind games by triggering mines through diffuse or entry, and provoking a false alarm.

If you don't, then you literally cannot make it, even if "faint audio" or otherwise, building-specific. That makes infiltration near-impossible or only effective against the newbs. I mean, you could give in-base radar, but we saw how impossible infiltration was at first with com centre.

Really, that other point really stands. Are mines the problem, or are single-person instant building kills? Should we lower c4 damage slightly to MCT, or should we reduce engineer c4 carry down to just remotes and tech/hotwire down to just 1 timed, and then allow players to buy 1 more timed for 400 credits more? While we're at it, should we reduce beacon costs by 200 since they are expensive yet "audiable" anyway, compared to insta-kill silent hotwire/tech they are near worthless?

[LavaDr4gon]

9 hours ago, YagiHige said:

Really, that other point really stands. Are mines the problem, or are single-person instant building kills? Should we lower c4 damage slightly to MCT, or should we reduce engineer c4 carry down to just remotes and tech/hotwire down to just 1 timed, and then allow players to buy 1 more timed for 400 credits more? While we're at it, should we reduce beacon costs by 200 since they are expensive yet "audiable" anyway, compared to insta-kill silent hotwire/tech they are near worthless?

Instead of having a 350 credit infantry capable of destroying a building have a 1000 credit commando class infantry, but I digress.

[vandal33]

The problem isn't about mine system, it's just that there are less defenders aware of missing mines in buildings. If people just not being too lazy to tell the misplaced mine owner to disarm and remine the base, call a mine-ban vote if necessary or remine(by overmining) the base again, you can quickly have your buildings mined again in a few minutes, less if people work together.

As said earlier, newcomers will learn from their mistakes when you tell them about the faulty mines, faster if given a mine ban (when they ignore you). The game already spoon feeding us with the overmining warning.

I had a game once with 2 overmining players. 1 of them stopped when I asked him nicely to stop and reserve mines for buildings. We then failed to rush an enemy building where I pointed out to him "see how effective if you put mines for buildings" and he seems to understand already about the proper mining. The other guy got a mine ban when he ignored everyone telling him to stop. It's not hard to fix the base mines after that, defenders just need to be aware before it's too late.

TLDR:Current mine system may be less newcomer-friendly, but the bigger problems are less defenders and people being too lazy to fix the mines.

[Axesor]

@vandal33

On 17. 1. 2016 at 0:44 PM, Veezo said:

I've made this profile specifically after seeing this post. I feel that when situations come up like this in a game's development you need to take a look at the objectives taking place.

When a gaming community has developed into the belief that there is only one, precise way to do things correctly-- specifically the mining-- there is a problem.

This isn't a problem of new players or veterans but that there is only one reasonable way to do things effectively.

The problem is that mining is no longer a game mechanic, but a procedure taken upon by players.

And I'm sure the noobs want to find out what they are doing wrong just about as much as the vets want to yell at them for it.

If all your mines are getting used the same way every game there needs to be a different way of preventing stealth assaults: because obviously without this stringent mining strategy players feel the game is unenjoyable without it.

On a side note mines are intended for the field that why we have both Anti-Tank and Proxi Mines, and in other games its pretty damn fun to f*ck with the tanks rolling into the field.

I'm going to leave the suggestion of door-guards up in the air because it needs a bit of balancing, but mines should get a timer, and I think 180 seconds is a perfect setting for this. Perhaps you could make it adjustable if some would prefer. But when and if mines are going to be used in the field and have an entity limit there needs to be something regulating that players have the chance to use a game mechanic as part of their strategy. (and we don't have 30 mines in god-knows-where).

Thanks for hearing me out

Mine system IS the problem

[Madkill40]

There are two parts to every team, everybody knows the offensive part in how to attack but not many stick around in the base to know how to defend which some people remark as an easy task, hating the defenders that fail put people off this game.

As it stands, RenX has to break the game by relying on a silent number potentially going down, but a increased volume for disarm sounds won't quite fix the other problem the mining system is facing.

In addition to an increased volume with the disarm sound effect perhaps give mines a very small symbol for the minimap so your team can see their teams' mines and more importantly where they have been placed, green for both sides to create some minor difficulty in recognizing changes. Timed C4 is 30 seconds, if you cannot hold your own for 30 seconds then you're infiltrating wrong. (And typically, this sets up solo-infiltrators to fail if they cannot hold their own, which is a difficulty curve required for RenX)

 

If both of these came into place then we could remove the 'mine limit' from the UI, mines could then still retain their limits only instead text will flash on a users screen, e.g. "Mine Limit Reached! [24]" when he or she tries to place the 25th mine, this mine would automatically disarm itself upon drop.

These changes make the mining system feel more interactive with the game itself.

 

TL:DR

No damage modification, no entirely new entity, no monetization for the purchase menu, no overhaul of the mines' mechanic. 

Just an increased volume for the mine disarm sound effect and small green blips of where the mine is on the players radar, it'll be hard to notice but it removes the broken guessing game and gives both teams a fair chance to disarm the mines.

Example of blips attached to post;

[Agent]

I'm mostly curious how many players support each individual idea and change in general, so I've added a poll to the thread.

The thread is temporarily pinned.

[Gamma]

Overmining is a problem, not a mine system. Inexperienced players use mines incorrectly, and it hurt the team. That's all!

Golden rules for the current mine system:

• Players must know where to lay the mines. It comes with experience, as mentioned previously. There're not many layout schemes.
• Players must keep in mind the mine counter.

@Madkill40 Really great ideas! If mines placed wrong, team would use a mineban and disarm them. Blips on the map could help the team to find the missing mines. Awesome!

[Axesor]

@Madkill40

While Iam not fully againts your idea, becouse I like the idea of making ppl panic just like when beacon is placed, it wouldnt solve the problem that I've quoted above your post. You are just giving tools to find, remove and punish people for wrong mining.

I'am offering a complete avoiding and elimination of negative possibilities of wrong mine placement and baning/punishing people for wrong mining. I want to eliminate this mentality of "only one correct mines placement" (I'd like to link to the quotation that I've mentioned, for explanation).

- purchaseable mines, destroyable with guns + hurting lasers in doors and windows, rechargeable after use, disableable by hacking door panel until it's claimed back, making shot sound if laser hit the target, 3 in doors and 2 in each window (to make them simulate current the most effective mines placement - 3 mines in door and 2 in each HON window)

Giving a passive "tools" is not a solution.

I hope it's understandable.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Axesor

[Madkill40]

(Other) The modification to the UI to visualize that it is in fact procedural; game integration of minelimit and points of interest.

 

[RoundShades]

On 9/27/2016 at 11:27 AM, Agent said:

Could always just remove mines belonging to a person when they're mind-banned.

...Or remove the mine limit and make them a purchasable item instead, so that team necessity becomes something a pub team isn't willing to share or use personal credits for.

Fix'd. Also, ties it to refinery suddenly. Not saying it shouldn't, but the first part is definitely a problem, where nobody wants to invest in mines.

Besides, getting "the cost" down to a science is hard. Too high, and a team can win sheerly through "mine-attrition" by tossing EMPs from infantry path constantly with no intention to go further. Too little, and a team can place 255+ in one setting, requiring a "team limit" again, which then gives the same problem with new problems to go along with it.

 

10 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

TL:DR

No damage modification, no entirely new entity, no monetization for the purchase menu, no overhaul of the mines' mechanic. 

Just an increased volume for the mine disarm sound effect and small green blips of where the mine is on the players radar, it'll be hard to notice but it removes the broken guessing game and gives both teams a fair chance to disarm the mines.

 

Also, to be fair, damage and alert are WAY less dev effort than radar blips even are.

I'm just saying, you don't actually want radar blips. One week, and you'd be reversing it because it's arbitrarily impossible to breach solo. It'd essentially be "full com centre", the second a green blip disappears, before even the "MINES!!1!" message is called out, you'd have 4 chaingunners mowing you down the instant the green blips vanished.

[yosh56]

sO LONg as purchasable mines aren't a thing I don't care what you come up with. Just... .decide on something. Henk: for the love of God, rig something in a map and I will happily add it to a patch for the sake of testing. 

 

I can think of a 1000 other reasons people don't play Ren/RenX .... the most prominent being that it's a 'tactical shooter' that emphasizes being Unreal levels of god-like at aiming to be good. Mines are over-hyped. 

[Sire]

I still believe the current mining system is fine and it boils down to two issues. First, educating new players on the complexities of the mining system. Second, no one really wants to defend the base as guard duty sucks. I am also trying to look at the mining problem from a perspective of a newcomer and not a veteran, so my suggestions were trying to be more newbie friendly.

As it has been stated several times, while basic mine tactics are perhaps three a door, advanced mining takes in account HON windows, Strip Tower, Barracks Door vs Sandbags, tunnel locations, and so on. This is a lot to take in and won't be learned immediately, but if a player continues putting effort into the game, they should pick up on it in time. Not all games have an easy learning curve, and while easy to learn, hard to master is perhaps the goal for most games, some games are just complex and players will need to adapt or play something else.

Secondly, if there are a lot of players out in the field, it is easy for in infiltrator to sneak into the base and blow it up. Even in RTS C&C, if there are no defending units or base defenses, an Engineer or Commando can waltz right in and cause havoc. Then there is the threat of SBHs for GDI, and while there may be a player or two patrolling around in an APC or Humvee, it is probably seen as a dull job despite how important it can be. A dedicated defender calling out when the base is under attack can do wonders, especially when the team is responsive to the callout. Should they ignore the threat, perhaps the team deserved to lose the structure. If the team is mostly tied up elsewhere and can't respond in time, then congratulations on the Infiltrator for choosing the right time to sneak in.

I voted to keep the mining system as is, but allow players to disarm all mines. When a player disarms a mine that is not theirs, a warning is put out in chat ("Sire is disarming near the Refinery!") so players can take appropriate action if needed. Allowing players to disarm all mines can be useful when disarming a destroyed building to fortify other positions. This, combined with mine banning and proper education in the way of mining, should be sufficient. Yes, allowing all players to disarm allows for trolling and team hampering, but this should be moderated and contained by the players unless it gets out of hand.

As for the poll options, I still want Proxy Mines for Hotwires / Techs at a personal cap if the current system is changed. Purchasable mines may work and remedy late-game credit overflow, but it relies more on the overall team defending instead of a one or two. Designated mining areas can show players "Place a mine within this box wherever the X is" or something to help newcomers (perhaps have it as a separate overlay that can be toggled off for veterans?), although a dedicated tutorial can also accomplish this. Door Defense is a little bit too broad a topic, will it be blast doors, laser grids, auto mines, or something else entirely? Each idea has its pros and cons.

Off-Topic, but when something important happens (such as a vote for surrender, map change, overmining, etc.), can we get an "Incoming Transmission" voice clip? It may make players notice in-game polls more and vote in them instead of wondering what happened after their team surrendered.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Sire

[boxes]

All I want is some kind of implementation that discourages this:

Old video but the point still stands. A new player using the proximity C4s (they're given to you by default as an adv.engie, so why not use them? Oh wait I have to go through a huge lecture first to understand mining) without knowing it's removing the mines back in base. And guess what, the new player isn't going to care about learning how to mine if they're just going to casually drop in and play a game or two on occasion. Mining as well as other features in the game need to be more noob-friendly, but still retaining a similar style to please both audiences. 

[Axesor]

∆ I would love to use mines as is shown in the video. This and not-only-this is why we need another way to protect the doors and windows and remove invulnerability from the mines so they can be used on the field.

[Sn4ke]

I voted that commanders should be able to disarm all mines..

But now I think thats simply not the job of a commander. My suggestion:

Add another rank to vote for like "Defensive Officer" - so teams can give the ability to disarm team-mines to a trusted / dedicated defender.

[Plotting Raccoon]

On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Sire said:

I voted to keep the mining system as is, but allow players to disarm all mines. When a player disarms a mine that is not theirs, a warning is put out in chat ("Sire is disarming near the Refinery!") so players can take appropriate action if needed. Allowing players to disarm all mines can be useful when disarming a destroyed building to fortify other positions. This, combined with mine banning and proper education in the way of mining, should be sufficient. Yes, allowing all players to disarm allows for trolling and team hampering, but this should be moderated and contained by the players unless it gets out of hand.

As for the poll options, I still want Proxy Mines for Hotwires / Techs at a personal cap if the current system is changed. Purchasable mines may work and remedy late-game credit overflow, but it relies more on the overall team defending instead of a one or two. Designated mining areas can show players "Place a mine within this box wherever the X is" or something to help newcomers (perhaps have it as a separate overlay that can be toggled off for veterans?), although a dedicated tutorial can also accomplish this. Door Defense is a little bit too broad a topic, will it be blast doors, laser grids, auto mines, or something else entirely? Each idea has its pros and cons.

Off-Topic, but when something important happens (such as a vote for surrender, map change, overmining, etc.), can we get an "Incoming Transmission" voice clip? It may make players notice in-game polls more and vote in them instead of wondering what happened after their team surrendered.

Solid suggestions. Perhaps make alternate fire on the repair gun disarm mines from your own team and otherwise be the same? I wonder how many people would miss notifications with a voice clip but, I think it would help things at least.

 

On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 4:25 AM, yosh56 said:

sO LONg as purchasable mines aren't a thing I don't care what you come up with. Just... .decide on something. Henk: for the love of God, rig something in a map and I will happily add it to a patch for the sake of testing.

I can think of a 1000 other reasons people don't play Ren/RenX .... the most prominent being that it's a 'tactical shooter' that emphasizes being Unreal levels of god-like at aiming to be good. Mines are over-hyped. 

I wouldn't place it at the level of Unreal or Quake for a lot of reasons but, I'd generally agree with that and think RenX is a fine game.