Add Recon Bikes to Main Roster

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

You might as well let us buy the bikes in-game ($500) on all the maps. It would barely change the meta and Nod needs their Recon Bikes, their signature unit from Tiberian Dawn. I miss my recon bike/technician build I used back in old school Renegade on MPF maps server. Most hilarious playstyle ever ( and useful; great for supporting tank columns hopping out to repair, one shotting/squishing infantry and taking out weakened tanks) but it was a playstyle that didn't exist for the majority of Renegade's shelf life, because Renegade didn't fully implement the Bike, even though it was supposed to be a part of the Nod faction roster for regular multiplayer games. It wasn't until later when mods added in proper working bikes with balanced stats.

But now C&C Renegade is almost dead, so it's up to you guys. #BringForthTheHolyReconBike

Also great job on the model, it looks sick.

[Sn4ke]

News vehicles are (in general) always great. Balance wise... Hard to tell imo.

 

E. G. HmRLS and attack cycle are pretty close to the top 1&2 broken vehicles atm

 

But ofc it depends on the maps and players and.. Everything else.

[HuskerDoggo]

Getting ptsd flashbacks to Flakeside. Oh god, please no

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Don't worry doggo it won't be teh same as that.

@sn4ke  Just scale the recon bike back a bit from the attack cycle so stat wise its not OP.

[Mystic~]

I would probably like the Nod bike back because it's part of their fast, stealth and hit and run tactics they can use to run circles around GDI as it were, but I really don't like how effective they are in terms of coming across as a Hell's Angels biker gang that can mass swarm missiles to destroy almost any tank and avoid shells and MRL locked missiles whilst they do it. They would be a perfect fit for a map like City Flying, although the same things still apply. I suggested somewhere else a while back that maybe GDI could get a dirt bike similar to what Chuck Norris used during Delta Force, simply because they're great for allowing single infantry to move around the battlefield.

[roweboat]

if I remember in Original C&C, the recon bikes became vulnerable not only because they had low armor, but they usually only seemed to fire when stopped.

Maybe that's a crazy horrible idea =D

 

only allow rockets when stationary

[crazfulla]

6 hours ago, roweboat said:

only allow rockets when stationary

This. Also maybe reduce the number of rockets they fire, as the original bikes only fired two I think at once, kinda like the stealth tank. You could lower the reload time slightly to help offset the loss of DPM, as I think the DPM should still be somewhat high. But one recon bike should not be able to take out a mammoth so easily.

Edit: Would it be possible to have an extras menu that servers can disable if they want? Like the extras menu of old.

Edited October 13, 2019 by crazfulla

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Could jack the price to $700 so its less spammable. Anyway to boost MLRS missile tracking speed for just the bike? Mammoth should be able to take it out in one salvo of cannons and rockets. Not being able to fire on the move is no good, especially at $700. If you're gonna go the stop-to-fire route, decrease price to like $400. Not being able to fire on the move cuts the bike's utility in half; I'm definitely not a fan of this idea.

Also, in C&C1, Mammoth tanks could squish bikes. Is it possible to make the mammoth be able to run over the bike, destroying it instantly? Like if the mammoth sprints and reaches a certain speed it can crush the bike?

Edited October 14, 2019 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[crazfulla]

8 hours ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

if the mammoth sprints

Mammoths don't sprint, they crawl.

[DenWellingston]

Add motorcycles from the Tiberium Dawn era? No thanks. The balance is already tuned to the equipment that is already there, and here also the motorcycle. Plus, if we introduce a motorcycle, then we need to counter it, for example, a Hamer with a TOW installation. I'm not even talking about the loss of more or less canonicity of the universe: the motorcycle from Tiberium Dawn was not in the game, but there was a completely separate model (and it very rarely appeared).

[Mystic~]

They shouldn't need to stop in order to shoot, else I don't think people would use them. I remember them being on a game of Lakeside and GDI were pinned in base, mostly just by bikes and perhaps a few artillery and it just played awful and they were really taking advantage of having something nobody could counter, might have been the perfect strategy though. The cut scene artwork also shows they have front mounted guns. They would also work really well on a map like Outposts and I could especially see them being used early game to bring back early rush tactics, but I think they should be a standard purchase choice anyway as they were in the original game this FPS is based on.

[vandal33]

Most units in Tiberian Dawn need to stop in order to shoot. But I don't mind only giving bikes to still have this. Adding the motorcycle in the game might cause balance issues like some people here already said. Those things are OP in Tiberian Dawn because of how cost-effective they are. 

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

8 hours ago, DenWellingston said:

the motorcycle from Tiberium Dawn was not in the game, but there was a completely separate model (and it very rarely appeared).

All models in Renegade are a lot different from Tiberian Dawn. The bike was always meant to be fully implemented, Westwood just ran out of time and had to release the game as is, with the Bike unfinished.

The counters to bikes are anti tank weaponry that's all, they're not hard to fight against. GDI could get a TOW Humvee to compensate. If the Bike and TOW humvee are proving too cost effective jack the price to $700 and $800.

Quote

But I don't mind only giving bikes to still have this.

You will when you realize you're the ONLY unit that has to do that. That's too gimmicky, and makes the Bike way too easy to kill.

[DenWellingston]

12 minutes ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

The counters to bikes are anti tank weaponry that's all, they're not hard to fight against. GDI could get a TOW Humvee to compensate. If the Bike and TOW humvee are proving too cost effective jack the price to $700 and $800.

And yet it will interfere. Especially the price of $ 700-800. The game is tied to the interaction of different classes, no matter what, it is more profitable to buy the same tank for the same money and go into battle. We already have balance problems for the Orcs and the Apache helicopter, while it’s better to focus on this problem. They still often feel like expensive tanks, and not as a means of air support.

[Handepsilon]

Don't confuse TS Attqck Cycle and Classic Recon Bike btw.  Last I checked,  Recons are not as strong as the TS version

[Havoc89]

Classic Recon Bike is very weak and has very low DPS. All TS vehicles, and TS attack cycle as a result; were all intended to be slightly OP in some way as they are unique rare vehicles that come across once in a while.

The current balance for the Classic Recon bike was intended to be much closer to RenX base vehicles, but with a slightly higher class weapon similar to the Classic Light Tank. Again the reasoning for it was that these are rare units but are no where as OP as TS vehicles and are much closer in the spectrum to RenX base vehicles.

That being said, the classic recon bike with a minor nerf can be easily made to be incorporated into the standard roster as a low cost, low armour, anti-tank unit. Almost like the vehicle version of a rocket soldier where it's not particularly great, but can be a way to turn the tide.

How this will end up affecting overall vehicle balance is pretty tricky. One of the biggest issues with the TS Attack Cycles is their speed which makes it very difficult to even land a shot on. The Classic Recon bike is the smallest vehicle in the game, even smaller than the TS Attack Cycle. This poses is a really challenging case when it comes to implementation in the base roster on the count of it literally having such a small hit box while at the same time being a fast attack vehicle.

Nod's biggest challenge is having to compete late game GDI vehicles, and the recon bike is not a late game unit. Its not a case like RTS where you can build a crap tonne of recon bikes and over power heavy tanks by outnumbering  them with small units. The number of vehicles is fixed, and its not even fixed because of vehicle limit, but rather its fixed because of player numbers. If GDI can have 10 players with 10 vehicles, doesnt mean Nod can suddenly have 15 players with 15 vehicles, that just means teams aren't even. Nod already has a slight nudge in early-mid game vehicle play with artys and lights, they dont need another light anti-tank unit. By no means can Recon Bikes balance out late game vehicle roster.

Its a cool unit to finally see ingame, but in the current overly complicated yet strangely balanced in an asymmetrical system that is overlapping between not just between unique vehicles but also character classes in two different factions; there isn't a place for it. There's also no need to add more to a formula just because it's there. Sometimes less is better.

 

[vandal33]

I think recon bikes shouldn't cost 700-800. They should cost less than a Light Tank since these units are meant to be weaker than tanks head on and a recon/hit&run unit so they're just a lighter version of tanks with speed advantage and better anti air. Even if bikes are added like that, I don't think there's a place for them here.

While it sounds good on paper for Nod to have a fast anti-armor unit that can harass harvesters, bushwhack heavy armor, hit and runs, scouting, and other wonderful things they do in the RTS C&C games, it doesn't work in this game. Judging from how people used bikes in Renegade MPF and Interim Apex, where the bikes are basically a faster and weaker version of tanks - this playstyle doesn't do much in a FPS game. People only use them as a faster buggy/sacrificial transport for expensive characters or beacon carriers. If they want a fast anti-armor unit, people would go for tanks since the Light Tanks in those games are speedy enough.

I don't really see a place for them as it might affect the overall balance. If we change the stats to make them more than lighter versions of tanks, it would be broken like how they are now in Renegade X. We already have the Light Tank which is already a fast unit compared to GDI tanks. Make them glass cannon units: we already have the Mobile Artillery. Make them anti armor support by attacking from a safe place: we already have the Stealth Tank. Give Nod a fast vehicle because they deserve one: we already have the Nod Buggy.

I'm okay if they're a crate only unit. But give them something unique instead of being just a faster tank. Like the ability to drive up the overlook ramp at Field, getting in tunnels, infantry path or inside buildings if the devs are crazy enough to make it possible.

[HIHIHI]

It would be quite difficult to grant the recon bike access to infantry areas - it would have to bypass vehicle blocking volumes, and those are not set up to block only certain vehicles. They block all vehicles, and it is not trivial to make them selective.

[NodSaibot]

3 hours ago, HIHIHI said:

It would be quite difficult to grant the recon bike access to infantry areas - it would have to bypass vehicle blocking volumes, and those are not set up to block only certain vehicles. They block all vehicles, and it is not trivial to make them selective.

Not exactly true. Air vehicle and normal vehicle blocking volumes are separated. It's quite simple to disable collision with specific volumes.

Example from air vehicle code.

event Touch ( Actor Other, PrimitiveComponent OtherComp, vector HitLocation, vector HitNormal )
{
if(Rx_VehicleBlockingVolume(Other) != none) 
	return; 
else
	super.Touch(Other,OtherComp,HitLocation,HitNormal);
}

event UnTouch ( Actor Other)
{
if(Rx_VehicleBlockingVolume(Other) != none) 
	return; 
else
	super.UnTouch(Other);
}

Using code similar in that fashion we could add a vehicle list property, you could check the properties of said volume to see if you could pass through it with whatever vehicle you are using.

Edited October 16, 2019 by buttons

[HIHIHI]

Ah, thank you for the clarification. For some reason I thought that system was not properly functional.

[Mystic~]

I've not had chance to use the new attack cycle, but I think people are under estimating the ability for bikes to be used for solo transport onto the field, capturing a silo, comm centre or getting to where the teams tanks need repairing and perhaps it is less detrimental if one is even stolen or taken by the enemy due to lowish armour, they have a smaller target area to hit, lower profile, they are more manoeuvrable, they move quicker than the buggy, it would be the vehicle of choice for vehicle sneaking a tech or other unit and they could perhaps be used to harass or bypass slow tanks like mammoths. Granting it access to areas otherwise off limits is probably going to break some maps, but at the same time it might be fun and open up new possibilities like allowing it to access the infantry hills on Lakeside. I'd rather it fit into the bracket of something like 300-350 credits. A buggy has a machine gun for anti-infantry but the bike would have rockets for light armour such as Orcas and Humvees. GDI has the MRL for cost effective anti-air, but Nod has to wait until 900 for an anti-air vehicle or use slow LCGs and it presents some more early rush options. 

[crazfulla]

5 hours ago, HIHIHI said:

Ah, thank you for the clarification. For some reason I thought that system was not properly functional.

This is 2019, if a rrecon bike wants to identify itself as an infantry unit it can! 

That being said I don't fancy their chances against a mob / doza.

Edited October 17, 2019 by crazfulla

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

On 10/15/2019 at 1:58 PM, DenWellingston said:

And yet it will interfere. Especially the price of $ 700-800. The game is tied to the interaction of different classes, no matter what, it is more profitable to buy the same tank for the same money and go into battle. We already have balance problems for the Orcs and the Apache helicopter, while it’s better to focus on this problem. They still often feel like expensive tanks, and not as a means of air support.

Steven Universe is a bad show for bad people. Opinion rendered moot.

23 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

I've not had chance to use the new attack cycle, but I think people are under estimating the ability for bikes to be used for solo transport onto the field, capturing a silo, comm centre or getting to where the teams tanks need repairing and perhaps it is less detrimental if one is even stolen or taken by the enemy due to lowish armour, they have a smaller target area to hit, lower profile, they are more manoeuvrable, they move quicker than the buggy, it would be the vehicle of choice for vehicle sneaking a tech or other unit and they could perhaps be used to harass or bypass slow tanks like mammoths. Granting it access to areas otherwise off limits is probably going to break some maps, but at the same time it might be fun and open up new possibilities like allowing it to access the infantry hills on Lakeside. I'd rather it fit into the bracket of something like 300-350 credits. A buggy has a machine gun for anti-infantry but the bike would have rockets for light armour such as Orcas and Humvees. GDI has the MRL for cost effective anti-air, but Nod has to wait until 900 for an anti-air vehicle or use slow LCGs and it presents some more early rush options. 

Now THIS guy knows whats up, he's stating some solid facts here.

On 10/16/2019 at 2:39 AM, Havoc89 said:

 

Its a cool unit to finally see ingame, but in the current overly complicated yet strangely balanced in an asymmetrical system that is overlapping between not just between unique vehicles but also character classes in two different factions; there isn't a place for it. There's also no need to add more to a formula just because it's there. Sometimes less is better.

 

The Recon Bike is unique as hell, it doesn't overlap with anything. It works fine in MPF, Vandal is exaggerating, lol, they're not like tanks at all, the die REALLY fast if the driver ain't careful.

[roweboat]

The rockets also barely target unlike the TS attack bike... So hitting things with the Rx recon bike is actually kind of difficult when moving at high speeds.

[Handepsilon]

Really won't change much against GDI's late game superiority though. It might change if we somehow technically unbalance the numbers between GDI vehicles and Nod Vehicles in Nod's favor

Either that, or make the vehicles have different pop count

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

A couple of people are overestimating the bike. Handepsilon said it best - it wont change the meta much at all thanks to the vehicle cap. At $500 some people will buy it instead of the buggy or APC, and it will be just as useful as either, and remember, the Recon Bike is different from the Attack Cycle, it's not nearly as powerful, so even on Lakeside it should be OK.

On 10/16/2019 at 2:39 AM, Havoc89 said:

Classic Recon Bike is very weak and has very low DPS.

Its a cool unit to finally see ingame, but in the current overly complicated yet strangely balanced in an asymmetrical system that is overlapping between not just between unique vehicles but also character classes in two different factions; there isn't a place for it. There's also no need to add more to a formula just because it's there. Sometimes less is better.

Your first sentence confirms that it shouldn't upset the balance. Your second last sentence was overly complicated for no reason lol, and it seems you're back tracking and assuming the worst. Don't worry, there is a place for it - the bike doesn't truly overlap any other vehicle, its got it's own play style. Based on my experience with the standardized Recon Bike in MPF and Rencorner (there are other OP versions of the bike in certain MPF maps, so disregard those) it's exhilarating driving at top speeds and trying not to bump into anything leaving you a sitting duck. No other vehicle offers this experience. It takes skill, but it's also high risk with only medium reward, meaning, it's not overpowered. In fact you might need to buff the bike to make it more useful.

Just pop it in the roster as-is and see what happens. I highly doubt the meta will be changed very much. Early game rushes might be a bit different, but that's about it. Nod wants it's iconic bike back, dammit! Then we'll finally have all our vehicles.

Except the SSM Launcher. Now THAT's a unit which could actually disrupt the meta, especially if you go with the Tiberian Dawn model which has two rockets, instead of Renegade's with only one. For those who don't know, the SSM is basically a super artillery which out ranges the Advanced Guard Tower and Obelisk of Light lol. That would be OP, you'd need to scale that unit back stats wise to balance it. But one step at a time! RECON BIKE! RECON BIKE! #BringBackTheReconBike

I tell yah, when Renegade first came out, all I wanted to do was drive the recon bike. lol, I was so disappointed that Westwood didn't fully implement it. It took a long time until the modders buffed it to useful status and implemented it.

Edited October 18, 2019 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[Handepsilon]

Quote

Handepsilon said it best - it wont change the meta much at all thanks to the vehicle cap.

Actually the fact it doesn't change meta much is the reason that I feel against adding it. If it's just going to be a faster antitank buggy that dies quicker, it's just going to unnecessarily fill up the vehicle cap

[Fffreak9999]

40 minutes ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

A couple of people are overestimating the bike

We are not over-estimating, 

We saw the impact of Recon Bikes being available for purchase before, especially when we released the seasonal map Flakeside.

They heavily dominated gameplay for Nod (which while there is counterplay options available to GDI, once people got used to it), the games ended up being over very quickly because their high burst damage is dangerous to non-moving targets like buildings

[vandal33]

14 hours ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

Vandal is exaggerating, lol

...

I just wrote 4 paragraphs of my humble thoughts and experience about bikes so I'm expecting something more than just a sentence calling me exaggerating. I played at MPF and IA a lot enough to know about bikes. I didn't play much at Flakeside mainly because of those purchasable bikes got me off but I am aware of how broken they were. I was even there when you made a thread requesting recon bikes at rencorner before (and how you reacted to people disagreeing ended up with some negative outcomes), some of the disagrees you got there were valid.

The devs can add bikes in this game if they want. I'm not stopping them. I just have my doubts it would do much good in introducing new playstyles or balance.

[roweboat]

Since this topic is getting a bit messy, please go vote on the poll I made. Id like a clear quick view of the situation

[Gex_str]

@Fffreak9999 , remember that TS Attack Cycle and TD Recon Bike are 2 different things  .  First one is a very fast venicle with OP rockets and another is just fast venicle with stank rockets. 

As for include or not, I'll side with Handepsilon. Recon Bike doesn't have something unique to it other than being a fast rocket soldier which dies in a few hits from anything. For the price higher than 350 it would completely useless since Artillery does better job at killing anything, as for the speed - buggy is already fast enough to travel on any map from point A to point B in a few seconds.

[Marinealver]

I find it sort of funny that Nod has more different types of Vehicles than GDI. I guess GDI doctrine is all you need is a Mammoth Tank.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

6 hours ago, vandal33 said:

...

I just wrote 4 paragraphs

Don't take it personally. You're a close minded doubtful dude. Most on Rencorner are. The guys on Rencorner like pink rocket launchers but don't like recon bikes lol.

8 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

Actually the fact it doesn't change meta much is the reason that I feel against adding it. If it's just going to be a faster antitank buggy that dies quicker, it's just going to unnecessarily fill up the vehicle cap

lol no it's not. It's equivalent to a buggy or APC. To say the bike unnecessarily fills up vehicle cap is to also say the buggies/APCs unnecessarily fill up the vehicle cap. Which I guess is true to an extent, depending on the professionalism of the team. But that's not the point - Nod has always had Recon Bikes. Bring them back. They're easy to balance. And it wont die quicker if the pilot knows what he's doing - another non-issue. A couple people here with non-issues. You seemed to favour it earlier, now you're back tracking? Odd.

8 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

We are not over-estimating,

Yes you are. The Recon bike is by no means the Attack Cycle. Renegade X Attack Cycle is OP. Renegade X Recon Bike is not. If anything the Recon Bike needs minor buff.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

I find it sort of funny that Nod has more different types of Vehicles than GDI. I guess GDI doctrine is all you need is a Mammoth Tank.

Guess you never played C&C1. It's always been that way.

5 hours ago, Gex_str said:

@Fffreak9999  Recon Bike doesn't have something unique

Yes it does. You've obviously never played OG Renegade on the MPF and even the Rencorner servers. On those servers, at $500, they are a more advanced version of the buggy, being slightly weaker but having a MUCH faster top speed - after accelerating for a bit, the bike zooms past anything and everything. Unlike the Buggy, the Bike can actually kill tanks, not one on one, but with support from your team. They can also fend off aircraft because they have homing rockets. With that extreme speed you can run circles around the whole map, picking off hotties and weakened tanks. The buggy can't do this nearly as well. The bike is better than the buggy, hence the $500 price tag. You can support your team's armor by getting a technician and bike, zipping around your perimeter, picking off stragglers and repairing your tanks and artillery. It's useful.

Don't compare the bike to a rocket soldier, lmao. You're not even trying. Seriously guys..... the Bike is awesome, and with a little fine tuning it'll be balanced.

Stop resisting the bike. ;)

[Guest once upon the time]

I think you should really look at Rowe's Poll, there is an option that I think can be apt.  @roweboat
On small maps, I would not necessarily have the recons for known reasons and also mentioned reasons.
Now comes a big one though, and certainly it would not have such a big impact on larger maps because of the distance.
Unfortunately, I do not know now which maps are big enough in the normal rotation (think Outpost and possibly Daybreak), because you could possibly start a trial.
I can only say on Mount Harbor (OK is also more of a world map) the recons are fast but not rushing for a deadly because the distance from base to base is great.
These are my 5 cents on this topic.
Hope Google was reasonably understandable, in German it was OK :)

[DenWellingston]

9 hours ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

Yes it does. You've obviously never played OG Renegade on the MPF and even the Rencorner servers. On those servers, at $500, they are a more advanced version of the buggy, being slightly weaker but having a MUCH faster top speed - after accelerating for a bit, the bike zooms past anything and everything.

I played in MPF and Interium Apex for 1-1.5 years and personally confirm the words of many. A motorcycle rarely appears on the battlefield. It is fragile, it is weak and, at times, does not pay off. What is the point of acquiring a motorcycle if the enemy has a Gauss Titan or a Mammoth tank with the same weapon. And I didn’t even talk about the infantry and the map: if the enemy surrounded the base, then it makes sense to buy a motorcycle with a few neiu. Personally, I myself am not against the Skimmer from Twisted Insurrection, as an answer to motorcycles, but with certain conditions: this model of technology is not a canon, and it is also knocked out of the main balance. If you replace Skimmer with Hammer with Tow (For a rough example), then players will still prefer other types of equipment to him, since armor also solves everything.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

10 hours ago, SilentKnight said:

I think you should really look at Rowe's Poll, there is an option that I think can be apt.  @roweboat
On small maps, I would not necessarily have the recons for known reasons and also mentioned reasons.

By that logic you might as well take out the Buggy and the APC from those small maps as well. Again, you're over estimating the Bike. Mine your base as always and you'll be mostly fine from rushes.

1 hour ago, DenWellingston said:

I played in MPF and Interium Apex for 1-1.5 years and personally confirm the words of many.

No, all the words you are confirming here are about the Attack Cycle in Renegade X, not the Recon Bike in Renegade. In fact you're the first person other than me to mention that you've actually played MPF and Rencorner servers. On those servers, there is a very well balanced Recon Bike for Nod to purchase on most maps for MPF (I'm not talking about those crazy IA maps), and a couple for Rencorner. Now see here: you're not actually complaining about the bike, you're just saying you don't use it, and don't see others use it. We must not have played the same matches then; I use the bike all the time. It's great for guarding the base and catching rushes minutes before they arrive so you can tell your team to defend. Good times.

Don't bother talking about Twisted Insurrection - while it's a great mod, it has nothing to do with the original C&C1 universe which Renegade was made from, said universe had a bike all setup for Nod, it was 99 percent ready to be deployed, and now finally, the Renegade X devs make a sweet model of it which looks very similar to the original Renegade Recon Bike, before the original Renegade got that huge change in aesthetic, changing all nod units to bright red instead of urban cameo. 

The model looks great, the unit is easily balanced, and the meta is barely changed. SO Lets do it, bring on the bike! I've already voted.

Edited October 19, 2019 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[Guest once upon the time]

@DoMiNaNt_HuNtErI do not want to attack you now, but it gives the impression that you live even more in the past than me. Renegade x is not C & C or old Renegade, it's a fan made game.
I am also open for new things or for more variety in the game. Unfortunately, you mediate at the moment (maybe I am wrong) the impression that you are the only one who is omniscient.
It also looks like the term "compromise" does not appeal to you at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just makes the impression.
Have fun with the further discussion, I'm out now.

[DenWellingston]

2 hours ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

The model looks great, the unit is easily balanced, and the meta is barely changed. SO Lets do it, bring on the bike!

I have already expressed my respect and I repeat, no. 1- Balance and getting off the track of a classic assortment of vehicles. 2- The motorcycle itself from the era of Tiberium Dawn 3- The motorcycle has a huge number of enemies, such as an ordinary tank, rocket launcher and Sidney with Raveshaw.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

6 hours ago, SilentKnight said:

@DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr Renegade x is not C & C or old Renegade, it's a fan made game.
 Unfortunately, you mediate at the moment (maybe I am wrong) the impression that you are the only one who is omniscient.
It also looks like the term "compromise" does not appeal to you at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just makes the impression.

What the hell are you talking about? There's nothing to compromise; the gameplay you've come to know and love will still be intact. lol I dunno why you'd say Ren X is NOT Renegade,  because it certainly is. Original Renegade has featured balanced bikes for years now. Renegade X has everything original Renegade has plus all kinds of cool new shit. You really think a Bike is gonna disrupt anything substantial? Come on.

Look, your only real issue with the bike is that you think it will be over powered like how the Tiberian Sun Attack Cycle is. For the last time chum, the Recon Bike is not nearly as powerful as the Attack Cycle. They are two different units from different timelines - The Attack Cycle is from the future so of course it's gonna kick your ass, whereas the Recon Bike is modern day. It's just a bike with rockets, with no fancy shielding or anything, so aim well and you'll kill it quick. Oh and strafe hard so you don't get run over.

If I'm wrong the devs will just take the unit out, but for god's sake, give it a chance at least. I'm not omniscient (NOT YET) I just know Command & Conquer, probably more than you and most of the rest of the nay sayers here. 

3 hours ago, DenWellingston said:

I have already expressed my respect and I repeat, no. 1- Balance and getting off the track of a classic assortment of vehicles. 2- The motorcycle itself from the era of Tiberium Dawn 3- The motorcycle has a huge number of enemies, such as an ordinary tank, rocket launcher and Sidney with Raveshaw.

1 There is nothing to get off track. The Recon Bike is part of the classic assortment of vehicles. 2 "The motorcycle itself from the era of Tiberium Dawn" Yes, that is the unit we are talking about... lol. 3 SO DOES THE ATTACK BUGGY. Non issues.

Look pal you can go in circles all day, the facts remain - any issue you have with the bike is equally applicable to Buggies and Humvees and even APCs. Therefore, the meta game will remain largely unchanged despite the inclusion of bikes, one more light vehicle. You will be fine.

And if not, we'll take it out. But we got to at least test it out.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

@DenWellingston lol what are you so confused about? Do you not speak English? Actually that would make sense, lol. Ok, get your translator out: Any weakness the Bike has is the same weakness the Buggy, Humvee, and even APC have. Meaning your concerns are moot, because you already know how to take out the APC and Humvee, therefore, you'll do just fine taking out the bike.

Anyways, I just got my hands on a Recon Bike. I was playing on the map called "Field", with 24 players, and a team mate gave me his so I could test drive it. lol, the controls need to be fine tuned. As it is, it takes PRECISION to drive expertly, maintain zig zag pattern at full speed to avoid locked-on rockets. You make one wrong turn and you're dead, and the sprint doesn't seem to work, except when going down hill, so you're not even able to go as fast as you should be. Also, the rockets reload time is slow, and you only shoot a single salvo from both pods I think, instead of two rockets per pod, although I could be tripping on that one detail, cause I didn't get a chance to fight very much, I had to run the fuck out of the way and not get hit by all the artillery. In theory, it's possible to do some damage with this thing in it's current state, but it takes skill. Which is a good thing.

So again, if anything, the bike needs to be buffed slightly. Stop worrying Duke Wellington, you'll be fine.

Edited October 19, 2019 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[DenWellingston]

1 hour ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

So again, if anything, the bike needs to be buffed slightly. Stop worrying Duke Wellington, you'll be fine.

Did you hear me Personally, I am against. Here's the answer to GDI, if they have nothing to counter the motorcycle at the beginning of the game? Better to stay as it is. I can talk about it forever, but I am against it.

[euan-missile]

So I've been following this post for a while now, I'm happy to see it's gotten some decent traction. 
My only fear is it'll fall on deaf ears since I know the idea about adding certain 'alternative' vehicles into the meta has been brought up before, and is likely to come in two forms - either a specific addition as per map (like with say cnc-Toxicity) or will be an entire overhaul on the base game, in which case I feel as if one vehicle is going to be added, many others will follow either as balance or as a general content update. 

So with that in mind, I do think this is going to be a slow change regardless. This doesn't even take into consideration that the current New Recon Bike is in need of some major overhauls before it's pushed into anything more than a rare crate drop.

 i'd also like to say @DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr is passionate, like me, about the idea of motorbikes being brought back into a mainstream appeal for NOD. It perfectly encapsulates their guerrilla warfare, lore and playstyle, though don't be fooled - @Havoc89 perfectly illustrates that the experience you have with the TS Attack Cycle is going to be completely different from the one you experience with this New Recon Bike, for the simple fact that the TS vehicles from the Mystery Crate are designed to be "rare exotic" and overpowered as they're considered rewards, not purchases.

So with that in mind, the two motorbikes cannot be compared by stats or gameplay meta, so fears about how badly this New Recon Bike will offset anything is likely to be found on paper only and not in practice, I keep noticing people are assuming it's going to be like the TS Attack Cycle. 

Of course, the confusion here arises from the simple fact that the New Recon Bike, is found as a "rare exotic reward"  so we naturally compare it to the other Mystery Crate exotics - but it was released with stats and characteristics of a purchasable vehicle, which is why it's getting such harsh criticism right now. 

So if we instead compare it to the current meta of ingame purchasable NOD vehicles, it actually falls comfortably inline. Though, it still needs bug updates and general gameplay tweaks, to make it more consistent & stable. However, I do like the handling and physics even if the sensitivity is a little high. I've been using it alot and i've gotten rather good at it, making the learning curve hard but once mastered, it's something to use to your advantage.   

 

But the bottom line is this:

There have been many great ideas proposed to the Devs and others, but these ideas are almost always complicated, stressful and call for a much bigger change overall that cannot be done in such a easy brush of a hand. This forum post perfectly illustrates this, with alot of tension from frustrating indepth discussions about gameplay changes via Vehicle balancing, Vehicle count limits, Map designs, hell, even talks about even the specific models and timeline of the vehicles being used for the Base Vs Crates.

There's alot to consider, but as a wise person in this forum said, this is a fan made game for the fans, so if they want it, it should be done, from whatever result comes out on @roweboat poll. 

 

Though between you and me, if I had it my way, I'd recreate the exact recon bikes from old Renegade itself, and give them the damage, stats and handling as the New Tib Dawn Recon Bike, and put it on NOD for select maps in place of the Buggy. - I'd also go ahead and put the New Tib Dawn Recon Bike model in the bin, and just keep the TS Attack Cycle as a crate rarity. 

While I don't particularly care for the whole "its from another universe" argument. As far as I see it, NOD is still NOD, but I would like to see as many renegade vehicles return as humanely possible. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by euan-missile

[HIHIHI]

Euan "gEt HumVeE" Missile makes some good points here - those who worry about the recon bike being OP must remember that it's a whole new unit, not the TS attack bike, and it was designed with balance in mind. I don't think that it would be OP, but at the same time, I don't see a need for it in Nod's vehicle roster. Where Nod really suffers, vehicle-wise, is late-game, when GDI can roll out high-vet mammies. Nod doesn't really need any stronger of an early game, in my opinion. They can already roll out arty+tech combos 50 credits sooner than GDI can roll out meds with no more support than engies, and an arty+tech is very effective. The recon bike, since it would need to be a fairly cheap unit, would just enhance Nod's early game, if anything, while being of little to no help in the late game, where mammies and meds will be EASILY able to take them out very quickly, unless the recon driver is of exceptional skill. And that's if they're not trying to attack - if they go on the offensive, they will be even easier to destroy.

The recon bike is a cool unit, and I think that it's perfectly fine if it is kept as a crate vehicle, to make it even more of a rewarding and special experience to have one, like a Bradley.

2 hours ago, euan-missile said:

Though between you and me, if I had it my way, I'd recreate the exact recon bikes from old Renegade itself, and give them the damage, stats and handling as the New Tib Dawn Recon Bike, and put it on NOD for select maps in place of the Buggy. - I'd also go ahead and put the New Tib Dawn Recon Bike model in the bin, and just keep the TS Attack Cycle as a crate rarity. 

Specifically addressing this point: I'm not in favor of having such a difference in vehicle rosters on a per-map basis. Obviously there will be a difference between flying and non-flying maps, but other than that, I think that vehicle and infantry rosters should stay essentially the same in every map (think of Gobi...) - and I would definitely not like to see the buggy leave on any map - they are situationally useful. Now so could the recon bike be, but I think that the buggy is a little more useful, since it's an early game unit, and in the early game, you need anti-inf. I don't think the recon bike is exceptionally strong as an anti-inf unit (except against me... In euan's hands... even when I'm cheating with Creative Mode... : )   ).

I'm sure part of my resistance to adding the recon bike is just resistance to change... I can be like that. But I will still say that I see no need for it on the main vehicle roster (Nod already has more vehicles than GDI, and Nod already wins more than GDI).

 

DISCLAIMER: I will be one of the first to admit that I am NOT an authority on balance. It is by no means one of my strong points. But I have given my opinion anyway. I hope my ramblings are of some use. : )

HIHI "Get Buggies" HI

[crazfulla]

Recon bikes were included for purchase in some maps in the original game, such as C&C_BunkersTS. But this is a very different game, and they had much lower DPM.

Recon bikes are very powerful, particularly in smaller pop games. I don't care what you compare them to. Games on Toxicity are often dominated by them - though at least both sides have access to equal and limited number. The only way I would agree to including them in the mainstream purchase menu is if the DPM was nerfed considerably and GDI was given a unit of similar value.

[HIHIHI]

Again, this thread IS about actual recon bikes - the new crate unit from TD - NOT the Tiberian Sun Attack Bike that is present on Toxicity and in the TS vehicle crate. I believe that the recon bike is more balanced than the TS attack bike. It is slower, and I believe it does less DPM/DPS as well. So you really need to try the recon bike if you haven't - it is much different from the TS attack bike, and knowledge of the one does not really apply to the other in this particular discussion, since their stats are so very different. There have been NO maps yet that have incorporated recon bikes, outside of crate appearances. So this is untrod ground.

EDIT: I have been informed that recon bikes are actually present on Desolation, which has been in development by a community member for several months - my mistake.

[Handepsilon]

5 hours ago, crazfulla said:

Games on Toxicity are often dominated by them

Toxicity has TS Attack Cycle, not the Classic Recon Bike.

For the last time, the two are not the same. That's like trying to compare Buggy and TS Buggy. If that still doesn't convince you, let me grab the main stats of each individual vehicles for you to consider

Recon Bike

Spoiler

WEAPON

Lock Range = 6000
Amount = 2
Reload Time = 1.5
Fire Interval = 0.2

PROJECTILE

Speed = 500
Damage =  45
Damage Radius = 380

MULTIPLIERS

 Vehicle=1.0
Light Armor=1.0
 Aircraft =1.0
 Building =0.96

TS Attack Cycle

Spoiler

 WEAPON

Lock Range = 8000
Amount = 6
Reload Time = 4
Fire Interval = 0.15

PROJECTILE

Speed = 3500
Damage = 60
Damage Radius = 350

MULTIPLIERS

 Vehicle=0.48
Light Armor=0.48
 Aircraft =0.60
 Building =0.96

 

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

18 hours ago, DenWellingston said:

Did you hear me Personally, I am against. Here's the answer to GDI, if they have nothing to counter the motorcycle at the beginning of the game? Better to stay as it is. I can talk about it forever, but I am against it.

Do you THOROUGHLY READ ME? I already told you, GDI can counter a bike just as easily as they can counter a buggy, so you have no actual argument against the Bike. You just don't like it. Which is a shame, but fair. As they say "Don't fix what ain't broke," even though that's not what we're proposing here. You are entitled to your opinion.

However I think I've done a good job presenting facts which assure next to nothing will change for your playstyle, and it will open up the sandbox for regulars. Remember, nowadays on servers like MPF and Rencorner, original Renegade actually does have the bike implemented, even in the original maps. Although Rencorner never went as far as adding them to their original maps; they only had the bike implemented in a few custom maps. You wanna know the reason why they didn't want it added to all the maps? Because a vocal minority who frequent the forums more than they do the actual game said no. Looking at you Vandal, lol. It's not like it would affect their playstyle, because most of them are perma noobjets, which are MORE than efficient in taking down bikes.

Anyways, sir wellington? You're worried over basically nothing. But I digress.

11 hours ago, euan-missile said:

So I've been following this post for a while now, I'm happy to see it's gotten some decent traction. 

Heeeey that was you who I gave the Bike to after I was done with it. Yah talk about PRECISION; you have to turn by tapping the directional key instead of holding it, like tap, tap just to nudge over to the left while going full speed, tap, tap just to nudge over to the right, 'cause if you hold it down for more than a millisecond BOOOOM you be suicide sharp turning and then the camera goes crazy and yah you're fucked lol 

I like biking IRL.

FYI The Brotherhood of Nod is not abbreviated, hence Nod is not in all caps; it's not NOD, it's Nod. THE MORE YOU KNOW. Now lets go bitch slap GDI with our fancy new bikes.

Quote

it was released with stats and characteristics of a purchasable vehicle, which is why it's getting such harsh criticism right now. 

So if we instead compare it to the current meta of ingame purchasable NOD vehicles, it actually falls comfortably inline. Though, it still needs bug updates and general gameplay tweaks, to make it more consistent & stable. However, I do like the handling and physics even if the sensitivity is a little high. I've been using it alot and i've gotten rather good at it, making the learning curve hard but once mastered, it's something to use to your advantage.

Yah man quoted for truth - the unit is equivalent to a mainline purchasable Nod vehicle, and the controls are not bad per say, they are just tricky, hard to use. I'm glad you're having more success than I did, though I've only tested it once, and very briefly.

8 hours ago, HIHIHI said:

I don't see a need for it in Nod's vehicle roster.

It's never been a need. It's always been a want. I'm pretty confident this simple addition, probably the easiest-to-implement out of all the other proposed ideas, will not adversely affect anyone's playstyle. Although it's role is comparable to an Attack Buggy, it doesn't overlap the Buggy, it has it's own unique playstyle, which I don't think many of these nay sayers (you included) have ever experienced before, and that's why they're strident in saying nay. So that's where I come in and say from experience: addition of the Bike really doesn't change much at all, we've balanced it in original Renegade so we can probably balance it in Renegade X, maybe even for all the maps. Since all maps have Buggies, all maps might as well have Bikes, so long as the Bike can't get into tunnels and other odd areas , etc.

Quote

while being of little to no help in the late game

Again, a concern such as this is rendered moot, because the same concern applies to the Buggy/Humvee as well. Are not Buggies of little to no help in the late game too? No offense bud, but this is another non-issue taking up a decent chunk of space; the late game dynamics are irrelevant and would be 95 percent unchanged with the addition of a Bike.

Now, the addition of the Surface to Surface Missile Launcher, that beast of an artillery unit which Nod had in C&C1 and even in original Renegade. That motherfucker could definitely spice up the late game. https://cnc.fandom.com/wiki/SSM_launcher_(Tiberian_Dawn)

Quote

I would definitely not like to see the buggy leave on any map - they are situationally useful. Now so could the recon bike be, but I think that the buggy is a little more useful, since it's an early game unit, and in the early game, you need anti-inf. I don't think the recon bike is exceptionally strong as an anti-inf unit

What are you, new? Get headshots! And of course you can run people over like nobody's business, once you master them turning controls. Rockets be killing infantry just as good as they did in original Renegade, plus they lock on. The bike is an early unit too, just like the Buggy and APC - it costs the same as an APC.

And yes, definitely keep the buggy alongside the bike for all maps because the bike ENHANCES THE BUGGY! Bike/buggy combos are awesome. I've had some good times driving a bike with a teammate driving a buggy, and we  supported our Light tank columns and Artillery hopping out for repairs, then squishing Hotties and soldiers, and rocket sniping buildings, tanks and infantry (HEADSHOT) the buggy helped me mop up stragglers while I helped the buggy take out tanks. And when the stealth tanks and flame tanks went in for a target, we'd be right behind them to help put the finishing blow into a building and mop up any stragglers. It was hilarious lol and truly the epitome of Nod's guerilla warfare style. That's what we WANT, and, I guess as an extension of want.... need.

You'd be missing out by denying a simple addition out of (whats comparable to) superstitious fear.

8 hours ago, crazfulla said:

... Games on Toxicity are often dominated by the.... The only way I would agree to including them in the mainstream purchase menu is if the DPM was nerfed considerably and GDI was given a unit of similar value.

Toxcicity's official release page incorrectly calls them Recon Bikes instead of Attack Cycles so I understand your confusion. I too wish for the Recon Bike to be balanced. And GDI could get an equivalent unit, in the TOW missile Humvee! Now this unit wasn't officially made by Westwood, but it's a simple manner of taking the Humvee model and replacing it's machine gun with a rocket launcher. Modders did it in the original Renegade - Nod had the Bike at $500, and GDI had the TOW Missile Humvee at $550.

I like GDI too, I wouldn't mind seeing them get a new unit too, a new toy to play with. It would appease fans complaining that Nod has too many units compared to GDI, and again, like with the bike, the TOW Humvee wouldn't change the meta game very much at all. It's a win win - nobody's playstyle changes drastically and we all get new toys.

Whats not to like?

VOTE YES ON PROPOSITION 208

Edited October 20, 2019 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[Gex_str]

1 hour ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

Are not Buggies of little to no help in the late game too?

Humvees and Buggies are excellent at killing/sniping any enemy infantry(including annoying SBHs, Gunners/LCGs and snipers!) and carrying your teammates(either in the venicle or on top of it  ), so they still have use even in the late game.

 

 

1 hour ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

What are you, new? Get headshots!

Since Recon Bike's projectiles are basically homing missiles which only lock-on on venicles and those missiles are known for their mediocre speed..........
Good luck getting those headshots, you will certainly need it.

As for bonus meme:
- I fear no venicle...
  ...but THAT thing
points at Minji's Humvee
- THAT thing scares me.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

11 minutes ago, Gex_str said:

only lock-on on venicles and those missiles are known for their mediocre speed..........

True, those missiles are slow, and I didn't know they didn't lock on to infantry. In original Renegade they did, and were fast enough to pull off headshots no problem, just lead your target, etc.

11 minutes ago, Gex_str said:

Humvees and Buggies are excellent at killing/sniping any enemy infantry(including annoying SBHs, Gunners/LCGs and snipers!) and carrying your teammates(either in the venicle or on top of it  ), so they still have use even in the late game.

Hell yeah! The Bikes are also useful late game in a similar manner; they can't carry passengers but they can move waaaaay faster and help support tank columns better with their anti armor rockets and fast repair potential; being a technician you zip around the field hopping out to rep tanks then moving on to the next in no time. Great for maintaining field presence.

Edited October 20, 2019 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

On 10/17/2019 at 9:13 PM, roweboat said:

I really just want the hard data from the poll.

As the hard data shows here in this thread, more than half the people voting no have no clue what they're talking about; no the Recon Bike is not as powerful as the Attack Cycle, no the Recon Bike is not any better or worse than the Attack Buggy, no the Recon Bike is not over lapping anything, no the Recon Bike is not just adding something for the sake of adding because it's a legacy unit always intended to be a part of, and no your meta games will not change.

Your poll won't figure things out, this thread will. Anonymous internet polls never work anyways. Have you not learned from Mountain Dew's example?

Edited October 20, 2019 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr