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Veterancy Rework Please


Akbaro
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Veterancy should lean more toward personal achievement in-game as opposed to team effort(Average(?)).

That being said though, people who join mid-way through still often get upranked while players who have been in since the start can still be at a rank beneath, which doesn't even make sense. - An AFK on the winning team can be at a higher rank than someone who has been working at it the whole game on the losing team.

Not to mention that veterancy massively rewards certain playstyles and because of this, punishes others, making a rank-up dependant on your teams success if you arent doing the 'right thing'.

The team that is winning is likely to continue winning because everyone has superior armor, damage and speed to most of the opposition.

Having to fight players two ranks above you, who have been doing the same as you have for the entire game is an absolute slog and makes me want to play a better balanced game where players arent massively rewarded just for existing on the winning team.

Veterancy should be counted depending on the efficiency of whatever role you are filling and if that isnt possible, then the effects of veterancy should be reduced. The game was fine before it was added a year or so ago.

Edited by Akbaro
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Most of your XP from what I understand comes from kills. There is also assists too which just keeps you from losing too much if you don't last hit.

As for team xp that rarely comes from anything team related. I know you could place a beacon fro points but that is something you do if you have thousands of creds you are sitting on top of.

If anything vetrancy is mostly personal achievement.

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6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Most of your XP from what I understand comes from kills. There is also assists too which just keeps you from losing too much if you don't last hit.

As for team xp that rarely comes from anything team related. I know you could place a beacon fro points but that is something you do if you have thousands of creds you are sitting on top of.

If anything vetrancy is mostly personal achievement.

It isnt. You've massively simplified it. There are far more sources of VP than just kills and assists, thats for damn sure.

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Just now, Akbaro said:

It isnt. You've massively simplified it. There are far more sources of VP than just kills and assists, thats for damn sure.

Are you sure, because when playing a game I noticed that I am far behind in rank then most of my team. I mean harvester kill gives you a bonus on top of vehicle kills and you also get xp for building damage which is towards the goal. But If you kill more you rank up faster than your team. 

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6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Are you sure, because when playing a game I noticed that I am far behind in rank then most of my team. I mean harvester kill gives you a bonus on top of vehicle kills and you also get xp for building damage which is towards the goal. But If you kill more you rank up faster than your team. 

You dont. Damaging and repairing buildings gives the most VP iirc.

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Just now, Akbaro said:

You dont. Damaging buildings and repairing buildings gives the most VP iirc.

Yeah you are going to have to source that:

Gaining Veterancy

Defeating enemy infantries and vehicles will award a certain amount of veterancy points, depending on several factor such as:

Defeating higher ranks will award more points; defeating lower ranks will award less points;

Defeating enemies inside or near their base will award more points; defeating them near the player's base will award less points;

Defeating enemy Snipers or Advanced Snipers will award slightly more points compared to other infantries classes;

Vehicles yield more points than infantry when destroyed.

For roughly 20 armor/health points of damage that a player deals to a building, they will be awarded 4 veterancy points;

Similarly, for roughly 20 armor/health points of damage that a player repairs, they will be awarded 1 veterancy point;

Repairing vehicles and healing infantries will award 2 veterancy points;

Destroying the opponent Harvester will award 6 points plus 8 veterancy points to the whole team.

Destroying the armor of a building will award 15 veterancy points to the whole team. There will be a cooldown before a team can earn another 15 veterancy points if the armor of the same building is destroyed again.

Destroying the first building of the match will award 20 veterancy points to the team who destroyed it; subsequent destroyed buildings will have a bonus increment of 10 points applied to the original value. (I.e. second destroyed building awards 30 veterancy points to the whole team, third awards 40 points, forth awards 50 points, fifth awards 60 points, and so on) The bonus increment is accounted for each single building destroyed, no matter which faction.

Destroying a Guard Tower/Turret will award 10 veterancy points to the whole team;

Destroying an Anti-Air Tower/SAM Site will award 10 veterancy points to the whole team;

Destroying a manually operated emplacement will award an amount of veterancy points akin to vehicles to the whole team (A recruit destroying a recruit rank Emplacement will gain 4 veterancy points for the whole team);

Defusing C4, be it Timed C4, Remote C4, Proximity C4 will award 1 veterancy point for each C4;

Hitting a Vehicle with the blast of an EMP Grenade will award 2 veterancy points;

Placing a Superweapon Beacon near an enemy building will award 2 veterancy points;

Defusing a Superweapon Beacon will award 5 veterancy points;

Capturing a Tech Building will award 5 veterancy points;

Stealing a vehicle will award 10 veterancy points. There will be a cooldown before a player can earn more veterancy points if the same stolen vehicle is re-stolen (taken back to its original faction) again.

Mystery Crates have a chance to award 20 veterancy points to the player who grabs them.

Players who assisted their allies in damaging an enemy infantry/vehicle will be awarded a smaller amount of veterancy points when that specific infantry/vehicle is defeated.

Players that join a match already in progress will receive some veterancy points depending on the current duration of the ongoing match. The highest rank that a joining player can be awarded is Elite.

 

So buildings give the most overall but it also goes to the rest of the team with the lat hit getting a bonus. 

But kills are kills. So you got to think of the map. If you kill all the buildings you only get up to elite maybe. Player and vehicles kills are nearly limitless so you are not getting hero on just buildings alone.

So go read the wiki again and study what gets you the XP you are looking for.

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9 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Are you sure, because when playing a game I noticed that I am far behind in rank then most of my team. I mean harvester kill gives you a bonus on top of vehicle kills and you also get xp for building damage which is towards the goal. But If you kill more you rank up faster than your team. 

Not all of these are used afaik, but most are.

image.png.7bb7424a115749c020f4633e99f8a051.png

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Just now, Sarah. said:

It gives less VP than it would if you killed someone of higher rank, or not in your own base

So hold on, killing people inside the base dilutes VP? Thats a whole fookin role and its being actively CUT OUT. That is not okay.

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1 minute ago, Akbaro said:

So hold on, killing people inside the base dilutes VP? Thats a whole fookin role and its being actively CUT OUT. That is not okay.

The game rewards aggressive play styles, otherwise you end up just having 2 teams turtling til they get higher VP, at least thats the idea of it. That's my understanding of it, anyway. I can't really speak, as I didn't create the system or have a hand in creating it.

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16 minutes ago, Sarah. said:

The game rewards aggressive play styles, otherwise you end up just having 2 teams turtling til they get higher VP, at least thats the idea of it. That's my understanding of it, anyway. I can't really speak, as I didn't create the system or have a hand in creating it.

We should just send one entire team down the right flank and the other down the left and whoever sacks the enemies' base first wins! I know this is a horrific strawman but what im trying to say is that defence kills are fundamental in winning a game

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9 hours ago, Akbaro said:

You dont. Damaging and repairing buildings gives the most VP iirc.

Damaging buildings - yes, repairing them - no.

The best ways to get most VP in my experience are (Note: all strategies require you to stick to them from the start of the match):

         1. Shooting the building constantly - Usually with this strategy you can get Heroic at 40-50 min mark.
         2. Repairing venicles - Repairing gives +2 VP. If you repair someone and he gets a kill, you will get some bonus VP. With this strategy you can get Heroic at 50-80 min mark, it all depends on Assist bonus VP.
         3. Killing infantry - From 1 to 10 VP + 2 VP for a headshot and some extra for an assist. You can get Heroic at the 40-60 min mark if you good at killing. Requires some good practice at getting headshots either as sniper or anti-infantry.
         4. Killing venicles - Killing them yildes more VP than from killing infantry and gives a bonus VP for damaging them. The best ones to kill are Mammoths, Orcas/Apaches(if you're not in one of them). Usually takes 50-80 min to get Heroic. if you're playing as anti-tank infantry, don't forget about EMP grenades - they give +2 VP for each venicle that got into the explosion, they affect every venicle in the game except stationary ones (it's pretty tricky to hit a flying one with EMP, but doable) + it disarms any mines and it gives you 1VP for each one!

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I have no comparison to how this game was prior to the veterancy system, so I cannot comment on the game having been better or worse without it, but as far as I can tell, the whole point of veterancy is to promote offensive play and create a possible snowball to end a stalemate. To be fair, veterancy is not the real snowball in RenX. Money is.

If one team gets a monetary advantage, they get an overall advantage. Higher tier infantry and tanks simply are stronger. If you've got the choice between Deadeye/Black Hand Sniper or Havoc/Sakura, the choice should in most cases be obvious. No considering the Marksman even. The more expensive unit is simply stronger. This applies to basically all infantry units, as far as I'm aware. There are some exceptions, such as Heroic Rocket being stronger than Heroic Gunner, which is pretty damn weird. But pre heroic, Gunner has higher DPS

Tanks are a bit more lateral to be honest. There is only one troop transport, only one long range siege unit, and so forth. I sometimes still go for Meds when I can buy a Mammy because a Med has notable advantaces over a Mammy; it simply has a different role. With tanks, both spamming one type and mixing and matching can be valid tactics.

And what do you need to get advanced infantry and tanks? Money. Veterancy is just icing on the cake.

Money is the huge snowball of the game, not veterancy. Veterancy at its worst only further enhances this factor. But usually, the team that wins by heroic push was the winning team anyway. If anything, it seems to me like veterancy quickens games that already were decided. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a mechanic that allows for a one sided stalemate to be resolved than not have it. Because well... the team that has higher veterancy is usually winning, either by having destroyed more tanks, having more kills, or having destroyed a building already.

 

You may argue that the distribution of veterancy points may be reworked, but in essense, it makes sense.
Team effort rewards the whole team. That's why turrets, harv and building kills usually reward the entire team. While it's weird that someone is higher veterancy just by being on the winning team even if they join after, it makes sense in context. Personally, I haven't seen someone who just joined have higher veterancy than an afk OR someone who was doing something have lower veterancy than an afk.

Since veterancy is supposed to create a snowball effect, it makes sense that it rewards offensive playstyles more than defensive ones.

That is not to say the distribution is perfect. I'm just saying it makes sense to me.

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i kinda agree from where youre coming from, but at the same time i dont see a real issue with VP in its current state.

yes it does punish some playstyles, but some playstyles gives loads of VP yet youre semi-useless: as in you can camp a building with an arty for 30 minutes and be heroic, but youre not doing anything else usefull.

About kill/assist VP feels fine also (yet i dont understand how sometimes a free inf gives you 1, and sometimes 8vp..) but the best way to gain VP is to follow people in infantry and heal them. you get insane amounts of VP for infantry repairs.

and about fighting someone thats 2 ranks above you... it only is a problem when youre a recruit and youre fighting a Elite, or Veteran vs Heroic. 1 rank doesnt change much overall.

the game already grants VP for Everything you do ingame.. and in the end it comes down to everyone being heroic, so nodoby is really heroic at that point.

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Snowballing isn't a de facto "bad" thing, it is actually important to the flow of the game. OldRen's biggest problem was hours and hours of stalemates just slogging on and on. It still happens on certain maps now (Oh hi Under)

Allowing the winning team to definitively gain the upper hand at the right point is important to end the game and get the next one going.

It's really tough to balance though, you have to make sure the ramp of the snowball is not so steep that one team is instantly roflstomping and not so shallow that the stalemates last for days. It's a design job I do not envy the Devs having.

That said, I think the veterancy system is an incredibly useful tool for this (Someone was talking about how a Heroic Mammoth is essentially there to end the game and I think that is spot on) It's also good to encourage the aggressive play-style (like Sarah said) as in general this will quicken the pace of a game and makes for a more interesting game.

If defensive actions were weighted on par with offensive actions this would go out the window. Defence is important, but it shouldn't be encouraged as a teams main strategy or the game would get boring really quickly. I hear what you're saying about penalising people who like to play defensively, but consider what they would actually be gaining from hitting heroic for spending the whole game repairing in base, is it really that important to that play style? How much will it help the team win?

I agree it is not perfect and could probably do with some tweaking of values, but I think veterency does a great job of making RenX a more dynamic interesting game and it shouldn't be thrown out wholesale.

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5 hours ago, Kaunas said:

some playstyles gives loads of VP yet youre semi-useless: as in you can camp a building with an arty for 30 minutes and be heroic, but youre not doing anything else usefull.

To achieve Heroic in 30 minutes with an artillery by staying in one spot their one Arty from an strategical Tanking position held off an strong defensive offence, implying one vehicle path was unavailble to the enemy team - please tell me how making one vehicle path inaccessible to the enemy is "semi-useless" :P

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Akbaro did make some good points but I don't think the problem is as big as he sees it. I can agree with the "winning team will continue winning" because veterancy does punish losing teams even further with the excuse of making them lose faster just because some people doesn't like match going on for hours.

In Renegade, some modded servers have veterancy that gives your character slightly more armor and abilities (such as calling bot reinforcements) but it doesn't seem like it was aimed to finish a game faster because people really enjoyed matches lasting 5 hours unlike us renegade X players. Curious why unlimited time games are more popular here. The veterancy here is to make games end faster and easier to destroy buildings but at the same it makes it harder for comebacks if half your team is still veterans and the opponents are heroics. Ok, maybe they deserve that lost for not playing well to get higher VP but turning it into a slaughter-fest is not the way, especially when you have new players there.

 

 

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Veterancy's been tweaked several times since it was actually released. In its current state, it serves to do 2 things: 

A) Provide an incentive to play aggressively and not just camp in your base 

B) Give people something to do when the game is dragging on for an hour and a half. You never really felt like you were getting anything, or working toward anything before.  

Also, veterancy is one of those things that sounds bad when you only look at the numbers, but in practice, if a team actually ends up 2 ranks behind, they were already losing terribly. But again, I still rarely see that happen. You may see one or two people on the enemy team that are Heroic before people on the other team hit Elite, but there's simply not enough VP to go around for there to be squads of Heroic that quickly to outright break the game.... Unless it's a game that's been going on for 2 hours. At that point, yes, veterancy is there to end the game naturally, as opposed to just... 'and time ran out'. 

1 hour ago, vandal33 said:

Curious why unlimited time games are more popular here.

It doesn't matter as much now. Veterancy is its own natural time limit that still lets a game play out to base destruction like it should. All out War was actually always kind of broken in that it rewarded the camping team significantly so long as they weren't being pointwhored that hard. 

 

55 minutes ago, Akbaro said:

That motive flies when there is no chance to obtain it, because everyone you fight is already invincible.

Again, that 'can' happen. In practice... it rarely ever does. You're making mountains out molehills. Even in outright slaughterfests on Under, it's not uncommon for GDI to be pinned in their base for half an hour, only to break out and win with tanks anyway. If you know how to play the system (just like the original points system), you know how not to give up VP, and how to get every last ounce of it. It's also fairly difficult to get from Elite to Heroic unless you just have a pristine Arty spot with nobody bothering you. That 350VP gap is pretty extensive. 

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10 hours ago, yosh56 said:

You're making mountains out molehills. 

Its a game. Its supposed to be fun. I guess all critics are just making 'mountains out of molehills' when they complain about plot holes or broken game mechanics that destroy balancing.

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On 2/25/2019 at 3:37 AM, Gex_str said:

Damaging buildings - yes, repairing them - no.

The best ways to get most VP in my experience are (Note: all strategies require you to stick to them from the start of the match):

         1. Shooting the building constantly - Usually with this strategy you can get Heroic at 40-50 min mark.
         2. Repairing venicles - Repairing gives +2 VP. If you repair someone and he gets a kill, you will get some bonus VP. With this strategy you can get Heroic at 50-80 min mark, it all depends on Assist bonus VP.
         3. Killing infantry - From 1 to 10 VP + 2 VP for a headshot and some extra for an assist. You can get Heroic at the 40-60 min mark if you good at killing. Requires some good practice at getting headshots either as sniper or anti-infantry.
         4. Killing venicles - Killing them yildes more VP than from killing infantry and gives a bonus VP for damaging them. The best ones to kill are Mammoths, Orcas/Apaches(if you're not in one of them). Usually takes 50-80 min to get Heroic. if you're playing as anti-tank infantry, don't forget about EMP grenades - they give +2 VP for each venicle that got into the explosion, they affect every venicle in the game except stationary ones (it's pretty tricky to hit a flying one with EMP, but doable) + it disarms any mines and it gives you 1VP for each one!

^THIS^

I mean I am no good at this game and I can tell I am usually the last in my team to get heroic. So for the claim that Vetrancy does not award individual merit I find simply false and unfounded. Even with the code notes on how each modifier works.

I'm starting to thinks this is a troll post

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9 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

^THIS^

I mean I am no good at this game and I can tell I am usually the last in my team to get heroic. So for the claim that Vetrancy does not award individual merit I find simply false and unfounded. Even with the code notes on how each modifier works.

I'm starting to thinks this is a troll post

You sucking means that veterancy rewards personal merit? 

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On 2/25/2019 at 12:37 PM, Gex_str said:

Damaging buildings - yes, repairing them - no.

The best ways to get most VP in my experience are (Note: all strategies require you to stick to them from the start of the match):

         1. Shooting the building constantly - Usually with this strategy you can get Heroic at 40-50 min mark.
         2. Repairing venicles - Repairing gives +2 VP. If you repair someone and he gets a kill, you will get some bonus VP. With this strategy you can get Heroic at 50-80 min mark, it all depends on Assist bonus VP.
         3. Killing infantry - From 1 to 10 VP + 2 VP for a headshot and some extra for an assist. You can get Heroic at the 40-60 min mark if you good at killing. Requires some good practice at getting headshots either as sniper or anti-infantry.
         4. Killing venicles - Killing them yildes more VP than from killing infantry and gives a bonus VP for damaging them. The best ones to kill are Mammoths, Orcas/Apaches(if you're not in one of them). Usually takes 50-80 min to get Heroic. if you're playing as anti-tank infantry, don't forget about EMP grenades - they give +2 VP for each venicle that got into the explosion, they affect every venicle in the game except stationary ones (it's pretty tricky to hit a flying one with EMP, but doable) + it disarms any mines and it gives you 1VP for each one!

Pretty much... yes. 24/7 startfire on an enemy building resulsts in being Heroic faster (usually) though it's neither the best nor the fastest way to get there.

But let's add some thoughts to your list:

  1. Killing Enemy units - the fastest way to rank up! (vehicles > inf [ignoring snipers long range HS bonus])
  2. Supporting your team - 2nd fastest way to rank up (healing, kill assists, support assists)
  3. Farming the enemy harvester 24/7 (if it's not stopped by the enemy commander) - this used to be the key element for team-VP. since the commander rework it's hard to get it unless some infantry takes care of it
  4. shooting enemy structures (depends on game situation)
  5. building kills (teamwide VP bonus)
  6. farming crates (mostly infantry only)

Explanation etc:

It all depends on a) game stage and b) your personal preferences. Sometimes VP-farming an enemy building can be better than shooting at enemy tanks, but usually it's not worth it. (unless you need to accumulate cash or just need a little extra VP to push next Vet rank)

In my opinion there is no faster way to get Heroic then the mix of all 5 above :P but killing enemy units is the most efficient way (+ you hinder the enemy massively [economic gameplay]).

Repairing your teammates (vehicles or infantry) you get a constant +2VP income at very cheap costs + extra income from assists. A dedicated field repair of the most efficient tankers has chances to get HEROIC 2nd to the tanker!! Sometimes field repairs even get Heroic before anyone else (usually during some Under campfests).

To achieve Heroic rank as infantry player you need tons of kills & farm any (possible) VP crate + the support of your team. Unless you're on a 50-100+ kill spree you won't achieve Heroic without the teamwide VP income (harvy & perma dmg breaks or kills).

Extra:

On most of the maps Nod is in dire need of the early VP (harvy & first perma breaks). Nods chances to compete against Elite / Heroic Mammoth tanks are rather bad. (unless you spam LCGs & LTs & any Nod unit at all).

As mentioned by others before (think Yosh did), GDI can turtle inside their base, rank up and steamtoll Nod with Elite / Heroic meds / mammoth tanks during endgame. This depends on the map though! Under / (classic) Field are good examples here.

Prior to the *STOP HARVESTER* commander option you had to rely on cheeky push the harvy that way (flamers / GDI APC) tactics* to prevent the enemy VP killfest. Nowadays most commanders stop the harvy once field is lost. But - nevertheless this is still valid**:

Quote

The most important source of VP for the avg. player is the enemy harvester as it grants a team-bonus for everyone. If one team manages to farm each enemy harvester for 30 minutes 80% of that team should be 'Elite', the upper fifth (or tenth) may even be 'Heroic' already. Another 15-25 minutes of harvester farming and more than 35% should be 'heroic' (depends on the map though).

/out

the beloved Nestbeschmutzer ☮️🛰️

*e.g. Henk-style - pushing the harvy towards GDI PP (Under) to fool the pathfinding AI xD R.I.P. the days when you blocked the harvy successfully just for some guy to show up & push it free resulting in a harvy steamrolling the team vehicles into enemy gunfire 😍

**ripped from my guide that'll never get published 😜

Comments:

On 2/25/2019 at 9:40 PM, Madkill40 said:

To achieve Heroic in 30 minutes with an artillery by staying in one spot their one Arty from an strategical Tanking position held off an strong defensive offence, implying one vehicle path was unavailble to the enemy team - please tell me how making one vehicle path inaccessible to the enemy is "semi-useless" :P

uhm.. farming a building only boosts your personal VP counter (unless you get multiple breaks). And yes, apart from the repair pressure you're useless. Some *name-removed* player caused Nod to lose field control multiple times last Saturday PUG since he was VP whoring nonstop, while his teammates shot the vehicles. GDI pushed with Mammoths and took control of the field... -> VP-whoring can be extremely useless if not to say fatal for your team.

19 hours ago, Akbaro said:

It encourages aggressive gameplay but at the same time promotes little to no actual gameplay at all lmao

it seems like that you didn't read any explanations in this post. @Gex_str & @yosh56 & some others put it down rather well.

4 hours ago, Marinealver said:

I mean I am no good at this game and I can tell I am usually the last in my team to get heroic. So for the claim that Vetrancy does not award individual merit I find simply false and unfounded. Even with the code notes on how each modifier works.

hmmm, no idea how long you're playing Rx but you don't need to be good to have fun & enjoy the game. More important though - any team member can contribute to the team success (which is usually the match goal). Q-spot enemies so your team knows where they are. call our enemy movement (especially if it's a bunch of Gunners or Dozas 😉). Use EMPs to pin down enemy vehicles. Always bring a rep tool along (free on most servers) to repair your mates.

By repairing vehicles you can learn a lot about the game. Positioning (both vehicle & infanty as well as enemy sniper positions), tactics and responses to those. + map knowledge.

Keep it up! Eventually you'll get around the VP system. it's designed to encourage teamplay (since it's way faster to rank up)

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38 minutes ago, Trap said:

A dedicated field repair of the most efficient tankers has chances to get HEROIC 2nd to the tanker!! Sometimes field repairs even get Heroic before anyone else (usually during some Under campfests).

Oh yeah, most people miss this fact - in times of old I usually gotten heroic on CNC-Snow right after the top tier tanker I've been repping!

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Bring back original snow.

Again, ranks are made for game progression and it nails it. What you people want levels in this game? 

From what ive noticed public games revolve around elite, while PUG matches usually stay at high vet/low elite numbers. Even if certain classes and certain playstyles act different on different ranks its not a huge loss imo, adapt to the gameplay and the match youre in, it usually comes down to the situation and the state of the match, not some fancy modifiers

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