Guest Gliven Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 9 hours ago, Trap said: I'm aware that a bunch of the "skilled" infantry players think so, but tanking is not point n shoot. The reason a skilled infantry player is skilled, is because they are situationally aware, and they have good positioning. Its not just about point and click as you put it. Its very obvious where your bias is. A lot of skills and traits that actually good infantry players have, directly translates into good tanking. Being able to track and lead shots only enhances their tanking ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Arts Staff yosh56 Posted January 16, 2019 Totem Arts Staff Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Gliven said: The reason a skilled infantry player is skilled, is because they are situationally aware, and they have good positioning. Its not just about point and click as you put it. Its very obvious where your bias is. A lot of skills and traits that actually good infantry players have, directly translates into good tanking. Being able to track and lead shots only enhances their tanking ability. Jpj and poi are literally two of the best tankers I know l, just from the things that come out of their mouths while driving. Most people don't even notice half the shit they do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redarmy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/9/2019 at 3:46 AM, ........... said: A purely rhetorical question: There are more players to win for Pug, but the maximum number of players is 50, how should then play more? Thats right ! Answering the purely rhetorical question, we haven't hit 50 players in a looong time. Like, a full year has passed since we've hit that number. A lot of the time we only have 24-34 players. Last Saturday was the biggest PUG in a long time and it had 39 players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest once upon the time Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 @Redarmythx , for the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gliven Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 4 hours ago, Redarmy said: Answering the purely rhetorical question, we haven't hit 50 players in a looong time. Like, a full year has passed since we've hit that number. A lot of the time we only have 24-34 players. Last Saturday was the biggest PUG in a long time and it had 39 players. There is also nothing stopping us from adding another server and splitting into 4 teams if enough people show up. Can also bring back the Sunday pug if people show up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trap Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Please correct me if I’m wrong but you guys give the impression that skilled infantry players are also most likely skilled tankers… There is absolutely no automatism behind that. Comparing tanking gameplay with infantry gameplay is like comparing Nod with GDI unit wise. There are similarities but they will never ever match because they are different. 20 hours ago, Gliven said: A lot of skills and traits that actually good infantry players have, directly translates into good tanking. They surely help, but they only indirectly translate into tanking gameplay (see above). As I said before anyone being good at gaming can probably be a good tanker. But you have to spend a lot of time and effort into tanking gameplay, gain experience, knowledge etc. etc. If you play as a tanker occasionally only the chances to get a "S" tanker are rather bad. You're welcome to take the time and make your own tanker list if you disagree with mine. In the end it's all based on opinion anyway. Measuring skill with stats (such as Leaderboard) is impossible if not misleading. Opinion based on experience is more likely to fit the individual skill level. I love how people get defensive for others even if no names were mentioned anywhere. Edited January 16, 2019 by Trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest once upon the time Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 It is interesting to read the personal assessments of the players, must confess I did not look at Traps list. I'm not even about it, because as he has rightly written that it is his assessment.I just want to ask one question to all those who are interested:Who definitely has the advantage to win a game? Tanker, Sniper, Infantry or whatever.I have a personal answer, of course, is also subjective:Teamplay, Tanker without support is definitely worse off than with. Infantry also needs the support of tanks (in most cases).My ranking is simple:1st Team complete2nd Team Defense2nd Team Offense2nd Team Tanker can be offensive or defensive in nature.3rd commanderand then single player. For me, it's definitely the players who work for the team, and figuring that out in numbers is very difficult or even impossible. I wish all a good ongoing discussion . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syntharn Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I would argue that vehicle combat demand a higher situational awareness than infantry combat due to the TTK being much slower, you can't headshot a tank. You are much more dependent on your teammates to back you up with firepower so you can get through those tank lines and their repairs. Not saying that vehicle combat is harder but it does require much more coordination from your team than infantry combat does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gliven Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 4 hours ago, Trap said: But you have to spend a lot of time and effort into tanking gameplay, gain experience, knowledge etc. etc. If you play as a tanker occasionally only the chances to get a "S" tanker are rather bad. That is the difference between experience and talent. Sometimes talent can overcome experience. And then once the talented become experienced, well....you get the picture. I'm not saying anyone who is an infantry player will naturally be good at tanking as well. I'm saying someone who is an excellent infantry player, can translate those skills and experience into tanking as well. As a good infantry player you will generally have good map knowledge. You will know where all the good flanking spots are, where you can get height advantage, choke points etc. You act as if the skills tankers use are isolated to that area of the game. In some cases they are. As in body blocking team mates that just got EMP'd. Knowing where your repairs are, and if they are even still alive. They are a lot more similar than they are different. It all comes down to map knowledge, game knowledge and raw skill. Quote I love how people get defensive for others even if no names were mentioned anywhere. Quote Everyone has certain vehicles he likes and can handle well. But there is noone who can handle anything on an excessive skill level. not even boxes. (note: boxes is a S tanker due to his Apache / buggy / humvee / APC skills) Quote S tier Tanking Offense boxes, Pyonjpn, Gliven, I am an Owl, Minji, Xeon Wraith, Danvik, Canucck, Trap, Confuser2188, Falco, Ryz, Sho-Kun, Blazing Yoshi, Madkill, Havoc89, LavaDr4gon Madkill and Havoc are better tankers than most of the players you've mentioned for highest tier. LavaDr4gon is one of the most versatile RenX players and maybe you haven't seen him tanking... personally I consider him as S (tanker) and not A (based on your full player list) Hmm? no names? This whole list is about names. I can guarantee a bunch of those you crossed out could easily beat you 1v1 in a tank duel. I've seen you tank, I used to do nothing but repair tanks. Although i do agree mint's list is off, yours isn't much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madkill40 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 You can be S/A Tier Tanker without being S/A Tier Infantry and vice versa, transferable skills alone shouldn't really be used to mark S Tier Infantry as S Tier Tankers and again vice versa. In a similar sense, you could be an A Tier Infiltrator without being S/A Tier Infantry/Tanker, however at least if you're S/A Tier Infantry you could potentially be A Tier Infiltrator as killing other infantry with infantry makes you effective IF/WHEN caught. Sidenote: Although what makes somebody S-Tier Infiltration in my eyes is somebody who can kill a building without being caught too soon or alternatively can distract the enemy team for long enough that they don't have enough time to save the building. [Without using an Stealth Unit] But back to Tankers and Infantry - The core factors of each of those roles should be 70% of the overall mark per player, whereas 30% of the mark are the transferable skills. "The core factors" i.e. Something which only applies to one and not the other. If I could infantry as well as I tank I'd be happy, I'm sure there are players who would be happy if they could tank as well as they infantry. That's where the differences are. One difference being the tactics used with vehicles is very different to tactics used with infantry. Similar? Sure. In practice? Different. Maybe lets focus on these core factors for just Tanking and Infantry? Curious to see what else people think goes into these two groups - but leave transferable skills out of it as they go across the board and will only spiral this discussion 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trap Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 15 hours ago, ........... said: I have a personal answer, of course, is also subjective: you already gave the answer. Teamplay. A solo infiltrator can turn the tides of a match by destroying either a key building (Hon/Bar or WF/Strip) or by just giving the team the VP-boost they need to push the enemy back. But yet... an infiltator can't win on his own. Tanks without field rep -> dead or locked behind cover, driving back and forth constantly risking their tanks while repairing it on their own. Field rep without tank cover -> dead to splash or snipers. Infantry team without sniper support. Probably raging "why don't we have someone to counter the enemy sniper??" And so forth. On 1/15/2019 at 2:36 PM, Trap said: As a tanker I can say that it's not as simple as you say. I'm aware that a bunch of the "skilled" infantry players think so, but tanking is not point n shoot. There are no hitscan tanks (I'm talking about tanks, not support vehicles on heroic). Tanking is more about positioning, map knowledge (as in - area knowledge - where are the annoying collisions that fuck up the projectile angle [esp. for arties]), manoeuvrability, etc. About Crab... well. I've seen him tanking. He kinda knows what he's doing.... but always driving his arty the wrong way which makes him vulnerable to enemies and often blocks his mates (especially blocking projectile path for other arties) decided to not judge his skills. edit: anyone who's good at gaming can PROBABLY be good at tanking. probably. yes. maybe. if. doesn't make anyone a good tanker by natural law. anyone can drive over free infantry @Gliven well... you were referring to this post. the only name here was Crab, but that was an explicit answer to Mints remark about me not judging Crabs tanker skills. 11 hours ago, Madkill40 said: Maybe lets focus on these core factors for just Tanking and Infantry? Curious to see what else people think goes into these two groups - but leave transferable skills out of it as they go across the board and will only spiral this discussion thx! Spoke to several players about @MintLemonades list. Most approved his intention, but the majority said that it's not fitting the actual skill level of the listed players. There was no real "data" explaining his choices, etc. That's the reason why I decided to make my own list (based on Mints complete player list) for tanking only since that's the only thing I am good at. @Xeon Wraith mentioned that he might make a list as well, I'd love to see it. Other players could probably rate defensive ( @yosh56 ), infantry skills ( @Minji ), infiltration ( @Cephyrus ). Maybe @boxes could rate commanders. But - everyone rated by anyone should know that it's just a subjective assessment of each individual. A guideline for potential commanders. And nothing else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redarmy Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 The only S tier tankers are boxes, Kryp, Poi, and Xeon. Most other tankers play too conservatively, a small amount of them are completely reckless. An "S tier" tanker should be aware of when they can be more aggressive and should know when to fall back. Losing your tank isn't always horrible. If a light trades for a mammoth, that's a huge credit difference in cost. And say in the same trade situation, Nod has more vehicles fielded than GDI, in the area, GDI losing such a high presence vehicle hurts them even more. Unless Nod is like locked in base on Under where there's a huge income difference between the two sides, it's going to be a good trade. - A reps point of view Side note, the only players I'm considering are players I have had time with repairing solely them. Maybe Owl does fit in S tier, I wouldn't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gliven Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 8 hours ago, Trap said: @Gliven well... you were referring to this post. the only name here was Crab, but that was an explicit answer to Mints remark about me not judging Crabs tanker skills Was more than just crab, not going to defend his skills either. You said "mentioned no names" and yet you made a list ranking players. How is that mentioning no names? you literally made a list of names and ranked them. Anyways i'm not going to go any farther than this, we can pm each other if you want to talk about it further. 19 hours ago, Madkill40 said: One difference being the tactics used Tactics is the only difference. The over all strategy is still the same. Granted, tactics is a pretty large factor. But even then, a lot of tactics used on foot can be used in a vehicle. My personal opinion on the true difference between infantry and tank combat, is scale. The amount of support you need, the health you have, the actual size of the units. The difference in the amount of support is enormous. Doesn't matter if you are the best tanker, if you go out without support you will lose 75% of the time. You could be doing everything perfectly, and still lose because your support died foolishly. But we aren't gauging people on how well their team mates play. This is where damage output comes into play. If you cant make the shots count, doesn't matter how good you are at surviving. You could have the experience to know what to do, but lack the skill to be of any use. You are just an obstacle to be overcome or to be ignored. 8 hours ago, Trap said: But - everyone rated by anyone should know that it's just a subjective assessment of each individual. A guideline for potential commanders. And nothing else... On this, we do agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Arts Staff yosh56 Posted January 17, 2019 Totem Arts Staff Share Posted January 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, Gliven said: potential commanders. All 3 of us... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Xeon Wraith Posted January 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2019 39 minutes ago, yosh56 said: All 3 of us... Oh sweet, we have three now? Guess I can retire and let the other two do it. Tanking skill list still WIP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madkill40 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 8:28 PM, Gliven said: Tactics is the only difference. The over all strategy is still the same. Granted, tactics is a pretty large factor. But even then, a lot of tactics used on foot can be used in a vehicle. Erm...Did you forget about maneuvering..? That's completely different in a vehicle compare to infantry and isn't necessarily an transferable skill in this sense 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gliven Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 44 minutes ago, Madkill40 said: Erm...Did you forget about maneuvering..? That's completely different in a vehicle compare to infantry and isn't necessarily an transferable skill in this sense That comes down to positioning, awareness and finger dexterity, which are all transferable. Knowing when, where and how to move, is not solely a tankers trait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Arts Staff NodSaibot Posted January 18, 2019 Totem Arts Staff Share Posted January 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Gliven said: That comes down to positioning, awareness and finger dexterity, which are all transferable. Knowing when, where and how to move, is not solely a tankers trait. This is true, and it’s something important to know. Although the skills/traits may be expressed differently, I think it’s pretty easy to transition the skills you learned as inf into tanks or vice versa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trap Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 9:28 PM, Gliven said: You said "mentioned no names" and yet you made a list ranking players. How is that mentioning no names? you literally made a list of names and ranked them. Anyways i'm not going to go any farther than this, we can pm each other if you want to talk about it further. You were quoting and referring to a different post. A post which contained a general statement [except the Crab part, which I already explained was an answer to an explicit question]. We have different opinions. That's cool. But please stop implying stuff into my posts which I did not wrote. On 1/17/2019 at 10:19 PM, Xeon Wraith said: Tanking skill list still WIP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madkill40 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 On 1/18/2019 at 11:09 PM, Gliven said: That comes down to positioning, awareness and finger dexterity, which are all transferable. Knowing when, where and how to move, is not solely a tankers trait. So to you, you're saying driving a vehicle literally feels the same as when you're walking? The difference in size, the bigger the field of combat between infantry & vehicle contain an experience change of Handling and of Tactics, So - Tactics and Handling differ; Combined tactics are the bits of awesome in battles which make or break the opposing team, where the transferable skills then lend themselves to both sides : outside of their individual tactics, and the way in which each unit is handled. If you're individually effective; with each vehicle, in their tactics and handling as well then you're S Tier VO. [Highly proficient in offensive tactics and handling] And/Or, individually effective With every infantry, in their tactics and handling then you're S Tier Infantry Offensive. [Highly proficient in offensive tactics and handling] How effective you are for your team and what you're using/doing during your battles is then the classification grade. [SlayersAmigosBuddiesCharlies] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandal33 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 7:36 PM, Trap said: A solo infiltrator can turn the tides of a match by destroying either a key building (Hon/Bar or WF/Strip) or by just giving the team the VP-boost they need to push the enemy back. But yet... an infiltator can't win on his own. Infiltrators can turn the tide of the battle on his own at least. But I haven't seen any good infiltrator players playing recently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cephyrus Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Since I got serval messages from Renegade X players asking for feedback, I decided to create a "Sneaking-Tier-List" for at least everyone listed here. So as a warning for everyone reading this list, I will count PUB & PUG, both criteria to their "skills/tiers". Also this list will not be data based and only relate to personal experience and observation. Even though most of you know me as a kind person, it is possible that this list could hurt your feelings, cause it is independent to my personal relation to anyone. ( in short: no one gets a better/worse ranking cause I like/dislike someone).Index:C-Ranking: inexperienced/basic skil B-Ranking: average/forming tactics A-Ranking: advanced tactics/patient/improved using spies S-Ranking: experienced advanced tactics S tier Infiltration A tier Infiltration B tier Infiltration C tier Infiltration Boxes Confuser2188 MintLemonade I am an Owl B-Force Gliven TK104 Crab Minji Stromtrooper TR8TOR Quinc3y Cephyrus Kaunas Pyonjpn Ryz bioz4d Whistle Canucck Swaffelen Falco Snytharn Xeon Wraith Xtractor LavaDr4gon Snips Danvik Ryts Cain Newbie Abel Tiger Havoc89 Enigmas Blazing Yoshi Hohndo Sho-Kun Gex_str Sarah Machete Mykenubie Fartface Trap Guy with Magic Airstrikes Agent Black Angel Dan Vip Majestic Sausage Redarmy Dakuja Terrent fffreak9999 Smayhew Wildrover84 Husker Carlos Martok Kaliff At-Air Hakase Voltex Lowstar Madkyll Billybez Yosh56 Yumi Akbaro Wallar Maverick D3vastate Mystic George Zucadragon Testman Hackerham 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Arts Staff DaKuja Posted January 23, 2019 Totem Arts Staff Share Posted January 23, 2019 C Tier in Infiltration? I feel highly offended by this truth! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) Since you lads going on with lists, heres a list youve missed.. ill call it... Commander Hall Of Fame In this list i will Name Public and Pick-Up Game commanders that are noteworthy, i will Not list them in order, will not rank them or anything of sorts, that doesnt feel valid, atleast for me. The criteria i will be looking into are: willingness to command, knowledge (of the map, units, battlefield, teammates and enemies, tactics and strategy), frequency, efficiency, teamworking. [TmX]Ryz : If this player is commanding, the enemy team should prepare for a battle. Really good tactical insight, amazing crowd control and a teamplayer. Yosh56 : General PUG commander. Always has backup by his side if needed, teamplayer. Can provide the team with morale even in defeat. Cephyrus : Despite the willingness of this player to command is questionable, when he does it usually ends in victory fast. Amazing crowd control, exceptional strategies and good team moral support. slow : Usually a silent Public commander. Exceptional tank driver and always standing in the front line. Commander that knows when to fall back, and when to push with offensive tanks. Xeon Wraith : Frontline commander armoured in a tank always Q spotting enemies and giving notes to the team. Exceptional crowd control, tactical knowledge. Whistle : Go-to PUG Commander. Superior tactics and excellent crowd control. If this player has the right team in a match you can bet it will be a good one. kira : A go-to Public commander. Exceptional map knowledge and strategies. When faced with defeat this player might find a way to turn the tide. MARIUSZ : An experianced Public commander. One of the sharpest eyes on the mine-count, always informing at second notice once a mine is gone. Exceptional tank leader. roweboat : "When in doubt, call the roweboat out!" In victory or defeat this player can command to the bitter, or glorious end. When no one else takes command be sure roweboat will step forward. WildRover84 : A go-to Public commander. With his team by his side he can turn the match his teams way. When noone steps forward - he will. Confuser2188 : Excellent team management, exceptional strategies and know when to strike. When this player commands you wont need communication centers, the enemy will be on your map all times. TK0104 : A go-to PUG commander, and a decent Public commander. Even if rarely in charge, his guidance might turn the match sideways to victory. [MB]Nexus51325 : First he got the hand of the game, now has the hand of the match. Superior tactics and amazing moral support. When this player commands he know what and where to strike down. Eradikator : General Public commander. Infantry player that can Q spot his perimeter in seconds. Exceptional tactics and great sence of opportunities. This is still a "work in progress" i guess, but these are the people (that i atleast remembered) that can do something that all the people with S class tanking and murdering cant - guiding the team in the right path. If anyone was left behind or you dont like your "flavour text" feel free to PM me on Renegade X discord, will add and fix you up. Edited January 23, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Arts Staff roweboat Posted January 23, 2019 Totem Arts Staff Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Kaunas said: roweboat : "When in doubt, call the roweboat out!" In victory or defeat this player can command to the bitter, or glorious end. When no one else takes command be sure roweboat will step forward. 19 Lol yeah sounds about right. Half the time I'm entering a match mid-game and no one is commanding and I'll be like... okay fine, lets win =D 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Xeon Wraith Posted January 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2019 Its taken way longer than I expected, but the Tanking skill list is up at some 2.3k words. Link. I'm still not happy with it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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