Cruise Missiles

[Akbaro]

I think that cruise missiles need some re-adjustment. They seem to be overpowered, and extremely annoying too.

A while ago I was playing a game of under as GDI. We were locked in base and there was that typical huge vehicle clash just outside. The Nod commander, slow I think it was (well whaddya knowww) kept dropping cruise missiles on us seemingly every minute and only a handful of engies repping seemed to notice there would be one coming. I dont think anyone in a vehicle fighting actually noticed at all.

I think that the warning message isnt a good enough warning that everything in a 20m radius is gonna suddenly die in 10s.

The warning message seems to be on the screen for a couple seconds, is overwritten by a commander message or just non existant at all.

Im not the only one who gets caught by these 4/5 times. - They are literally silent. There is a little WHOOSH sound when one begins its journey but its far too quiet and can easily be drowned out by the sounds of cannon fire and shit.

Youd think a massive missile would have a bit of noise a few seconds from the touchdown? You genuinely cant hear them.

You have airstrikes which are deployed in a similar way, but they are very loud, very visual and do damage progressively, not this sudden flying turd that murders everything instantly upon landing.

Both of these powers feel like CoD killsteaks but I can see the reason behind them, they are used to end a stalemate. This cruise missile though, just seems like an easy way to obtain lots of kills by doing nothing tbh.

I just think it needs to have a bit of noise as its in transit.

[Akbaro]

I may have just realized this is in the wrong place. Sorry.

[Xtractor]

I never see them coming ,wish it was more obvious 

[CoreDefender]

Delete

Edited November 9, 2018 by CoreDefender
Delete

[Akbaro]

Thanks for the feedback.

[roweboat]

I agree. Even with the added "only 1 cruise missile at a time" rule. I still feel they are overpowered. And although I'm sure well-intentioned, out of place perhaps.

 

I think all other commander powers are great and have fair uses. But still my thought stands that the cruise missile gives too much power to a single player. 

 

The Commander mod should give that person LEADERSHIP power, not COMMANDO power.

[RoundShades]

Really, I wouldn't mind grouping it with Airstrike, and allowing 1 of each to be used every minute (along with a cost). Either both being commander power, or both being a PT beacon-like/laser-like.

To differenciate both more, just make 1 last 20 seconds and do wide area infantry damage, and the other do pinpoint singletime high-damage.

I don't really even like how you can shoot them down inconsistently depending on stuff at the time. Would be more consistent if it had a limit, rather than be spammy but the game might put it in a good spot to have a coin flip to shoot it down. Otherwise, why not shoot down airstrikes too?

As far as 1-person power, I don't like how commander power does that, but the added content itself is fine. Commander powers should cut bureaucracy and just let more than 1 player use said tools, even if it's 2-3. That way at least it feels more accessible as a team. Idk if it should be allowing vote for more than 1 person to have tools, color-coding them a bit, and/or just allowing all players to call commander power and put an instant vote up to approve requiring 25% team vote yes. OR something. Just bad to rely on both teams getting 1 good commander to use it in a non-gimmicky non-cheesy non-1sided way.

[Moat]

I think the smoke is pretty obvious and it takes long till it arrives. Maybe leave it like this but add a long cool down like 5 minutes.

EDIT:

Last few games that I played I also got surprised every time I walked out a building, don't know if something changed with the smoke signal. So I understand your point now 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Moat

[RoundShades]

I feel like the smoke and the shoot-down are both copouts to it being strong. Should be useful, sure, but not the single most clinching game mechanic available ingame.

[Mr.Dynamite]

I've only played a handful of games with these CO powers and they really spice things up, however, I also feel the cruise missiles are a little too potent. perhaps a progressive damage radius would help alleviate that. i.e. directs hits and say a few meters from ground zero are insta-kill, 5m-7m is 75% damage, 7m-9m is 50%, 9m-11m is 25%. (just approximate as I don't know the actual distances) Make it as a more consistent means of softening hardened defensive positions compared to the airstike

[Xtractor]

maybe a siren alert and a more visual thing would help

[Madkill40]

I don't understand how some of you guys don't notice the big flare that goes up when an Commander power has been activated

[yosh56]

2 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

I don't understand how some of you guys don't notice the big flare that goes up when an Commander power has been activated

For once I'm with Madkyll... I don't think I've ever had a cruise missile sneak up on me.

[limsup]

7 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

I don't understand how some of you guys don't notice the big flare that goes up when an Commander power has been activated

Flare could mean several things, its not immediately unequivocal for most of the people, especially if you are preoccupied fighting the enemy. How many colors can a flare have by the way?

[Xtractor]

If it's so Obvious why so many of us get cut by it ?? Coz we Noobs  

[Madkill40]

4 hours ago, limsup said:

Flare could mean several things, its not immediately unequivocal for most of the people, especially if you are preoccupied fighting the enemy. How many colors can a flare have by the way?

Yes it could mean an Spy Plane, EMP strike, Cruise Missile... 

If its set by Nod Commander its red, if its set by GDI Commander its Yellow. 

 

[NodSaibot]

The alerts for cruise missiles are being improved. However, there is already a message, a flare and a sound. 

[Akbaro]

 

On 10/28/2018 at 4:17 AM, Madkill40 said:

I don't understand how some of you guys don't notice the big flare that goes up when an Commander power has been activated

 

Its not big. It can easily be hidden or camoflagued in front of tanks.

[RoundShades]

Big publisher games: 3-4 visual/audio/ui cues when something happens.

Small developers: 1 cue should be fine, even though the community is asking for at least 2. It's not like the event is game-deciding or anything.

[NodSaibot]

12 hours ago, < blank > said:

The alerts for cruise missiles are being improved. However, there is already a message, a flare and a sound. 

 

[Madkill40]

1 hour ago, Akbaro said:

 

 

Its not big. It can easily be hidden or camoflagued in front of tanks.

It can be used skillfully, yes. 

 

Because if you're not paying attention, 

you'll be detected, and if you're detected,

ya die

[yosh56]

.... There are literally 5 different indicators to a cruise missile's exisence......

 

The flare. The message. The sound the message makes. The entry sound of the missile itself and the big ass red target in the sky. 

Just cuz someone's gotten decent at planting them during chaotic moments, or hiding flares where they can still be effective doesn't mean it's really all that stealthy. 

 

Also commanders arent exactly calling things in on the overview map, which is on purpose. They're obvious targets of interests that should automatically make you require more situational awareness. Same concept as people calling out sbh spies. They're not an immediate threat, but it's just to make you more situational aware and expect nukes/ions at some point.

 

[Akbaro]

I think if most people think they should be rebalanced then they should be rebalanced.

[yosh56]

1 hour ago, Akbaro said:

I think if most people think they should be rebalanced then they should be rebalanced.

I dont think 'most' people care. Especially considering I rarely see anyone say anything in game beyond when they're used on a beacon. 

[Guest once upon the time]

That could be a good sound

 

[Akbaro]

1 hour ago, yosh56 said:

I dont think 'most' people care. Especially considering I rarely see anyone say anything in game beyond when they're used on a beacon. 

Well, yes, because most people dont use chat. This is a fact. One might have an opinion of Blonal Blumpf but might not say it out loud. Most people keep stuff to themselves.

Considering how many kills these cruise missiles tend to get, often upwards of 6, im sure that alot of people would agree that the warnings arent potent enough.

These flares seem to disappear, the message barely exists, the sound is a quiet woosh and people dont tend to look up when they are focusing.

[NodSaibot]

26 minutes ago, Akbaro said:

Well, yes, because most people dont use chat. This is a fact. One might have an opinion of Blonal Blumpf but might not say it out loud. Most people keep stuff to themselves.

Considering how many kills these cruise missiles tend to get, often upwards of 6, im sure that alot of people would agree that the warnings arent potent enough.

These flares seem to disappear, the message barely exists, the sound is a quiet woosh and people dont tend to look up when they are focusing.

The flare appears for a little bit, the message is what should be most obvious. And politics hardly relates to game development. We ask for people to voice their opinions, most people don't go around asking for political opinions. Like I said before, game awareness is a skill, and if you don't have it, you are going to die. Just like checking mine counts all the time, it's something you have to learn how to do. If people don't pay attention to the messages, that's something they need to learn to do.

[Eagle XI]

for an rocket of its caliber, im expecting it to do a lot more noise and be loud to the point you will definitely get notice of it way before when is about to be coming down on top of you, not like the current "oh, lol look a silent cruise missile ive died to."

[roweboat]

I think the warnings for it are fine. Yes I'm sure a "real" cruise missile would be quite a bit louder. but it doesn't need to be deafening.

I guess I'm fine with GDI having an OP Missile, but perhaps for variation, Nod should have something different?

Like chemical/tiberium missile - does less damage on impact but more over a period of seconds

or a cluster missile - less damage at 1 point but has a wider spread than cruise missile.

[vandal33]

I'm ok with the cruise missile either have a large killzone or less-obvious indicators, but not both.

If it has a large killzone and damage (like it is currently) then the flare needs to be bigger. However, if the indicators are made more obvious then nobody is gonna get killed by the cruise missile (like superweapons) and it becomes only a scare weapon since people will always run away from it (though I agree, missing the cruise missile hints and get killed by it is part of your fault, but still you don't even get to kill noobs that easily other than using cruise missile).

If the indicators are left how it is, then at least reduce the damage and radius. I mean airstrikes are also not very obvious to those who didn't pay attention but people can still run away if they got caught in the zone.

[Madkill40]

On 10/30/2018 at 5:23 PM, Akbaro said:

These flares seem to disappear, the message barely exists, the sound is a quiet woosh and people dont tend to look up when they are focusing.

HOW TO AVOID A CRUISE MISSILE [The list]:

• IS THERE A FLARE? MOVE.
• SPOTTED AN MESSAGE? MOVE.
• JUST HEARD AN WOOSH NOISE? MOVE.
• NOT NOTICED ANY OF THE SIGNS OF A CRUISE MISSILE? YA DUNN FUCKED UP.
• Always stay alert on the battlefield, or ya die. 

 

Also I just want to point out that if you don't notice any of the signs of an incoming cruise missile then either it was brilliantly placed by a commander or those suffering from the reach of an Cruise Missile are the type of player that will be an complete asshat in a vehicle anyway. 

Cruise Missile is fine as it is... Maybe the sound effect should be raised..? But the sound effect volume for the cruise could also be absolutely fine I wouldn't know as I have sound settings on not-100% 

[Akbaro]

Im 95% certain that a massive ballistic missile would be deafiningly loud even miles away. We can hear planes 20,000 feet above us ffs, why cant we hear a huge missile literally just above our heads? Theres that lightweight woosh sound and then deafining silence until touchdown. Its ridiculous.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Akbaro

[NodSaibot]

S_CruiseMissileFire.WAV
S_Jet_Distant.WAV

 

They really aren't that quiet.

[yosh56]

Cruise missiles aren't nearly as large as planes (A Tomahawk is about 1/3rd the length of an F16), and also are CRUISE missiles. They're subsonic in speed. The loudest part is when they're initially launched and boosting, (which we've unrealistically simulated for the sake of a warning already), and obviously their actual explosion. By the time they're moving in on their target, they're not going to be much louder than the 50 tank shell explosions going off right by somebody's ears.  

You would by no means hear them over the sound of Mammoth tanks that late into their flight. Also their flight sound is loud enough already [As pointed out by @Sarah! ]. Nobody needs anymore headphone damage than their explosion already probably causes. 

 

It's grainy, but as you can sort of tell, they're not nearly as loud after their initial takeoff. Loud, yes. Not like blowing your ears off like a freakin' Harrier or an F16 though. 

 

[Akbaro]

The speed of sound is what? 350m/s? These cruise missiles rapidly enter the field and into extremely close proximity where there would be no sound delay and in all fairness, being 50m away from you and all, deafiningly loud.

Im not deaf. I have a pair of decent speakers and headphones and I swear to god these cruise missiles are literally deathly silent. The woosh, no.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Akbaro

[Akbaro]

Oh yeah its weird we can hear a woosh from a  kilometer away but a missile within arms reach would be quiet.

[Guest]

Cruise missles are a two way thing. 

Pros is that you can murder a campfest in 1 shot and give your team a chance to push out.

Cons is when you use a missle thats 800CP, if you hit youre down that cp and you really need coordination to push out. And if you miss OR it gets shot down(more later) youre flat down more than half of the CP for a offencive rush.

Maybe its my playstile but i find it really easy to shoot down cruise missles.. when i see it coming i just rush to the drop zone. 

About its not easy to see it coming.. isnt that the point? You dont want your enemy know your every move in the battlefield

[yosh56]

6 hours ago, Akbaro said:

The speed of sound is what? 350m/s? These cruise missiles rapidly enter the field and into extremely close proximity where there would be no sound delay and in all fairness, being 50m away from you and all, deafiningly loud.

Im not deaf. I have a pair of decent speakers and headphones and I swear to god these cruise missiles are literally deathly silent. The woosh, no.

Subsonic means it's not traveling at the speed of sound. Also again, the explosions and firing of your own tanks would be louder in all honesty. That jet noise for the cruise missile literally is able to be heard throughout most of the map, especially of you were near the target area. 

 

The entry noise is just there on purpose as a warning... a very obvious one if you somehow missed that obvious message in all caps. 

[Akbaro]

I may have missed the 'obvious message' because it was on the screen for a second and has a tendency to red light green light.

How come we can hear GDI A-10s flying past quite clearly but not these cruise missiles?

https://youtu.be/TmhuQqPcOtY

Edited November 6, 2018 by Akbaro

[Moat]

Please stop comparing real missiles with renegade-x , you can shoot with lasers, poison and be invisible. You don't hear the missile that loud because it is a modern super silence type that does not exist in real life (yet, you never know)

[yosh56]

You can miss Nod's Airstrike and GDI's when they're actually firing off. GDI'S  A10 sound only draws more attention to itself because it's broken up a lot more which catches your ear with 3+ separate sounds as opposed to one consistent one. The Nod airstrike suffers from the same syndrome as the cruise missile in that regard. It's a lot harder to notice than any other power till it's too late. People just have time to move out of Nod's airstrike. GDI'S gets more kills since it can do weird shit around corners. 

 

Most people are just more aware of the airstrike because of the blatant EVA notification.  The cruise missile is still significantly more obvious. The last week of PUB games I've played have all pretty much ended in cruise missiles just being a waste of CP from people that are even slightly observant. Most either exploded on nothing, or got shot down. Was a minor learning curve to situational awareness, and said curve has pretty much been rounded.

[Madkill40]

If I'm in first-person in a vehicle I tend to be able to hear the "wooooooosh" of the cruise missile and then look around for the flare, if I'm in third-person its rare I don't spot the yellow/red flare 

[roweboat]

Has thought been given to using an overview map approach for aiming cruise missile launches? I know that's leaning more towards RTS instead of FPS, but the current aiming with cruise missiles gets downright frustrating.

 

EX: on gdi, are great at stopping arty rushes. but only when they don't see them. the goal is to get the missile right behind their tanks, but the number of times it's accidentally landed on the tank driving right in front of me... or the mountain off in the distance by accident...

Some sort of implementation to allow pinpoint aiming on the overview map would be awesome.

***

I'd also say that would be a great way to build in waypoints for units to follow (have a physical line drawn on the overview map and then some sort of path also visible for the team on the ground). Coordination would be clear and would eliminate the need for the commander to lead the charge. (ala exactly like Tiberian Sun and I'm sure many other games)

[Akbaro]

Cool idea, I think the commander thing as a whole brings Renegade back to that more CNC style instead of some sort of mutant Battlefield. Waypoints and other cool stuff is a must imo.

[yosh56]

Still trying to keep everything as ground levevdl as possible.

 

Waypoints would make sense on a map, but support powers would just open up a can of worms.

Also it all sounds more useful on paper than it is in practice. The maps arent generally large enough to warrant waypoints, and sitting in an overview is taking a player away from your team. 

[NodSaibot]

Going to say this again, rav and syd 1 shot these things. If you don't have a rav or syd with your tanks, you're probably doing something wrong.

[TheOlsenTwins]

On some maps it is barely visible (depending on the surroundings) Example: Gdi Flares on Walls or on other maps in foggy areas

I think the visibility should be improved.

Also it shouldnt be allowed near Ions/Nukes IMO - especially against teams with no ref this is a killing blow...

[Akbaro]

On 11/6/2018 at 9:51 PM, Sarah! said:

Going to say this again, rav and syd 1 shot these things. If you don't have a rav or syd with your tanks, you're probably doing something wrong.

Sarah you expect everyone knows this. I only just found out that they have a genuine healthbar today. None of this is told, all to be found out.

[Akbaro]

7 hours ago, TheOlsenTwins said:

On some maps it is barely visible (depending on the surroundings) Example: Gdi Flares on Walls or on other maps in foggy areas

I think the visibility should be improved.

Also it shouldnt be allowed near Ions/Nukes IMO - especially against teams with no ref this is a killing blow...

That flare needs to stay longer and the missle should have sound in transit.

[NodSaibot]

5 hours ago, Akbaro said:

Sarah you expect everyone knows this. I only just found out that they have a genuine healthbar today. None of this is told, all to be found out.

Well now you do.

 

Also, what do you mean transit sound? I literally exported the sound and uploaded it here so you could hear it.

On 11/5/2018 at 7:59 PM, Sarah! said:

S_Jet_Distant.WAV