Should Any Maps be Removed From PUGs?

[Redarmy]

Copying this from the discord:

I was thinking, maybe we should remove some imbalanced maps from PUGs. Like, realistically on Mesa, there's no chance for GDI to win unless teams are heavily imbalanced or Nod just has zero teamwork and cooperation. Personally, I think both Whiteout and Mesa should be removed for this reason.

http://www.strawpoll.me/14431064

Also, boxes suggested:

"in the meantime we should probably come up with solutions or ideas to make mesa more balanced

and send it to a dev"

[TK0104]

The simpelest solution for Mesa: Short side should be infantry only again

[Henk]

Better to change the maps than ban them from PUGs

[Redarmy]

Well obviously @Henk, but until that does happen. I believe they should be banned. Mesa was the first PUG game today. It was over within like, 15 minutes, without a surrender vote even being passed. A surrender vote almost did pass though, and the game ended within 3 minutes of the failed vote anyways. The map is almost pointless to even play right now as GDI in a PUG. I feel the same way about Whiteout.

I only included Field in the list because I could see someone arguing for that one aswell (someone actually did vote for it too), though I feel if Nod has sniper advantage, utilizing "man-tanks" make enough of a difference for Nod to have a chance to win. On top of that, Nod does have a variety of alternative options outside of just field control to also tip the game in their favor.

[boxes]

Last Whiteout game was a good back and forth battle, map is tougher for GDI sure but they definitely have more things going there compared to Mesa

Mesa is easily the most lopsided map in the game due to how the short side is designed perfectly for flamer+arty. A number of PUG players are willing to share their input on what can be changed/added, if a dev is around to help out

[Ryz]

If you ask me Mesa should be removed from the PUG and pub's untill something has changed. I've seen GDI win Mesa on a few occasions, but usually it's just the same and the same... Whiteout is different and can be won by both sides. I have a feeling, but that's purely based on my own games, that GDI wins whiteout more often lately. 

[Madkill40]

The terrain on Mesa's short side is ridiculously unfair, GDI cannot get as close to the Nod base as Nod can get to the GDI base which gives GDI no where to maneuver and leaves repairs slightly immobile, both vehicles and reps on GDI are immediately decimated by Nod vehicles. 

GDI needs a longer slope and generally more room so they're not so easily bottleknecked at the side of their base entrance/exit.

[DeadAccount]

Mesa and Canyon both need to go. Imo they need entire reworks in design which would open the door for other maps...

What about the possibility of introducing new maps from the community? A new maps patch perhaps?

[TK0104]

1 minute ago, MintLemonade said:

What about the possibility of introducing new maps from the community? A new maps patch perhaps?

That's up to the Devs to decide. From what I know some maps might have a big chance to be in an update

 

Furthermore about Mesa and Canyon: I think the Nod advantage starts when they got the Artillery. I think we need to expirement with the price of the Arty on certain  maps like Canyon and Mesa to see what's a good price for an arty on those maps. It will give GDI a bigger chance of getting stocked with meds (Usually the awnser of GDI when Nod got Artys)

[Ryz]

Or make arties only available if you have a tech building? If Nod has it and arties it can still win, but would give an extra element to the map besides arty pounding ftw!

[Redarmy]

@Gliven's idea for Mesa changes:

Essentially, every obstacle in red should be removed, blue should be added. The short path should be widened slightly. This removes most of the cover arties have and reduces the choke points for flame tanks to hold. These changes allow GDI more of a chance to fight back for vehicle control of short side.

--------------------------------------------------

My idea for Mesa change, with some input from @CampinJeff:

Black = extend the mountain range, blue and yellow are potential new infantry tunnels, blue leads to bridge, yellow leads to silo, basically same result from both. Brown area = Rock arch which should be positioned in a way to where neither side can sit back and still fully assault the enemy base. Red = potential for infantry only zone that so far no one else seems to agree with.

The main idea of this is to minimize the impact the short path has, while still allowing it to exist. The potential new infantry tunnels allow infantry to be able to quickly reach the short path and help out if need be, while also giving Nod a 3rd building to worry about getting infiltrated.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Redarmy

[Guest Gliven]

Blue is new rock and cliff positioning, red means remove. The yellow lines represent stairs or a ramp for infantry to access the bridge.

Nod's cliff should be extended to both block arties from hitting GDI ref from farther back, while also giving nod ref more cover, so GDI cant farm their ref from behind cover as well. Removing the large rock infront of GDI base opens up GDI base entrance so that flame tanks have less space to run back when they are contested. Flame tanks can still sit around the corner and run back to the silo for cover, so they will still be powerful tools. Nod's arties will still be hidden by elevation, so GDI will have to actually push up in order to push them out.

I also want to keep the bridge open to vehicles so that both teams can still flank if they so choose to. At Max only 1, maybe 2 vehicles can hit PP from the bridge. With the addition of the new infantry path to the bridge, it will be much easier for infantry to flank tanks on the short side, and a faster route to the silo by foot.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Gliven

[LavaDr4gon]

Is it possible to reduce the elevation of the short path so the artys won't have great height advantage?

[boxes]

1 hour ago, LavaDr4gon said:

Is it possible to reduce the elevation of the short path so the artys won't have great height advantage?

GDI can utilize the height advantage as well when they have the hill, main issue is mostly 1 flamer being able to tank GDI's whole vehicle force on its own. Could be solved with added infantry paths to the silo area and/or adjusting rocks suggested by gliven and redarmy

[Madkill40]

22 hours ago, Gliven said:

When you see how much space Nod get in front of their base on the short path, would it not just be simpler to make this distance similar for the GDI side of the short vehicular path? [Sidenote: The big rock which is meant to prevent Arty's from firing at the Ref (South of the bigger red circle) is also the very obstacle which puts GDI at a disadvantage]

The smaller red circle (Cover) could be moved south east, the blue and reds being the only main cover to exist, which would give GDI the bit mobility they so desperately need.

Changing the elevation of the GDI short vehicular path to be less steep (like on the Nod side) may just disadvantage Nod completely but it is doable, in my opinion moving the steep elevation on the GDI side further west of its current location would make the short side fairer on both sides, Arty's would have to be way more exposed to fire at the GDI Refinery likewise GDI's vehicles would also be exposed getting to them but at least more GDI units could push that side if need be in order to overpower Nod forces.

As for ways to reach the bridge from the cave, using some of the cave debris which currently exists inside the tunnel as ramps to reach the bridge would probably be the best way to add that extra pass into the map without altering much of the cave itself. (Its a nice cave)

Edited November 21, 2017 by Madkill40

[Guest Gliven]

8 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

The big rock which is meant to prevent Arty's from firing at the Ref (South of the bigger red circle) is also the very obstacle which puts GDI at a disadvantage]

I disagree, The one i circled(large red circle) in front of GDI base is the prime spot for flame tanks to sit. The slightly smaller rock south of it, is not reaaallly a good place for a flame tank to sit. Sure it is doable, but you can be attacked, you litteraly have no where to run, repairs will be exposed, and tend to die from splash damage or they will be too far back and could be shot by the AGT. Also that blue circle i drew could be moved farther south and closer to the original position (near the small red circle)

8 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

Changing the elevation of the GDI short vehicular path to be less steep (like on the Nod side) may just disadvantage Nod completely but it is doable, in my opinion moving the steep elevation on the GDI side further west of its current location would make the short side fairer on both sides, Arty's would have to be way more exposed to fire at the GDI Refinery likewise GDI's vehicles would also be exposed getting to them but at least more GDI units could push that side if need be in order to overpower Nod forces.

I thought a lot about the elevation and slope of the GDI entrance. One of two scenarios will happen. 
1. GDI will be able to obliterate all the arties, so Nod will have to rely on a good flame tank with lots of repair, to keep the med spam at bay. I feel like this would swing too far in GDI's favour.
2. Nod's arties would be able to shoot over GDI's tanks and kill hotwires with ease. 

I feel like the ridge should stay for both GDI's and Nod's advantage.

[Madkill40]

9 hours ago, Gliven said:

I feel like the ridge should stay for both GDI's and Nod's advantage.

But to move the ridge a bit further back (away from GDI's base) may still keep that advantage.

[Xeon Wraith]

I thought I'd join in on using paint with screenshots. 

In a nutshell, these are my issues with Mesa.

Spoiler

lol why the hell does this fucking bump exist 

I also have a few ideas to counter the early flamer, if Mesa isn't already removed from the map pool.

[Madkill40]

46 minutes ago, Xeon Wraith said:

Isn't this also the area in which GDI can attack the Nod Refinery? With the exception that this is pretty much as far as GDI can go, whereas Nod get it much easier and can hit 4 out of 5 buildings without much issue from the AGT? 

Seriously. That ridge needs to be moved further away from the GDI base.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Madkill40

[NodSaibot]

(P.S. you guys could move the rocks around yourself in the editor to show what a good fix would be)

[Redarmy]

That's waaaay more work than just using MS Paint.

[Henk]

Yes, but you have 1 more dimension  A necessary one. And you can playtest it, if you don't move lights around but just some rocks it won't be too heavy.

[TK0104]

Another match on Mesa, Whiteout and Volcano this PUG. Nod just had the advantage on all those maps again. I think it's not fair for the opposite team because they can't even come into the game because Nod already got Artillery's out.

 

Think these are the most unbalanced maps on the PUG that people choose and you know how the match comes out. It's more fun if you don't know the outcome of the match. That's why I prefer not playing these maps at all on PUG

[Madkill40]

A few humvees should be able to decimate a batch of Artys

[Xeon Wraith]

@TK0104 You're able to hold off on Volcano pretty well by controlling the bridge in the tiberium cave. Arties are terrible anti-inf without splash so you'll be able pressure them with little return fire. Long side shouldn't have any issues with MRL barrages until you can get meds.

Whiteout is usually just a mad rush to whichever team can get field control first, be it arties or MRLs and gunners. If GDI can last long enough to push out mammies, they can start to farm arties being dropped off at the end of strip.

Also note that the Volcano and Whiteout games today, GDI lost both of their harvesters and Nod secured theirs. They're a heck of a lot early game focused than most other maps but I wouldn't say the outcome of them is set.

Except Mesa. Mesa is fucked.

Edit: So the dumb Mesa anti-flamer strat I talked about in my previous post was to use a two man flaming C4 humvee to try and instagib the early flamer. The flamer usually sits around the corner so there's little leeway for the flamer to kill the C4 before it reaches them. Its also theoretically cost effective at 350 vs 800.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Xeon Wraith
Too lazy to test out anti-flamer strat. Go nuts.