[MAP->1.3.5 update]CNC-GrassyKnoll

[Ryz]

Was the ion storm removed from the final version? played the map a few times and the storm never happend

The version ingame is the non-ion one, so there are basically two versions if I am correct...

[--==00G==--]

I think the map concept is great: minimal base defenses akin to lakeside, a central infantry only zone with varied terrain, a silo that is contestable early (I'm a BIG fan of early objectives instead of "zergling-esque" rushes), and 3 lines of attack. Furthermore, I've found myself really appreciating how the light base defenses discourage early infantry rushes (flamers/chem and hotties/techs) but are not enough to inhibit a more "mech" based push. Unlike a good many of the official maps, this map feels balanced (neither NOD nor GDI are favored).

However, most of the map feels empty. Traveling either side of the infantry only zone is... well boring unfortunately. The tiberium field is GIGANTIC, stand on one side, and to see across you have to FULLY zoom in with a sniper rifle. On top of this, the lighting, in spots, is atrocious; I was playing on the dawn version (are there more then 1?) and while attacking NOD from the Silo side, nearly HALF my screen was lens flare type effects (even with them disabled through options).

To Schmitzenburg, its creator, I want to say overall I enjoy the map. Of all the new maps I am torn between this and Snow (I cant wait to try a 40 person game on this map...) as my favorite of the bunch. Furthermore I understand how difficult solo development is. I'm not very experienced with creating maps such as this, and outside the lighting, I tried to focus on issues that could be "easily" addressed.'

Quoted from the patch thread. I realized after browsing the forums a bit, this may be a more appropriate section for such discussion.

Regards,

Twisted Viewpoint

[Glacious]

I think the main issue's are the huge open areas to the sides of each base which straight away gives the advantage to GDI as there main vehicles are much more focused on ranged damage compared to NOD's flame tank and stealth tank, I think the tiberium field side should be left as it is, more of a GDI focused side and the silo side you make narrow so it splits into various smaller vehicle paths almost placing random tall/large rocks along this path to stop any ranged damage and then give NOD the advantage on this side as there flame tanks could push forward without getting raped at long ranges and same goes for stealth tanks.

Basically have a big open tib field for GDI one side and have a far more enclosed close range battle side for NOD on the silo side that would allow both teams to push evenly.

[Ruud033]

Wouldn't a few more obstacles do the trick? So Nod also has a chance of removing the GDI vehicles without putting themselves in the open the second they leave their base?

[Schmitzenbergh]

Hey y'all!

Thanks for al the feedback. I'll check them in depth next week. I'm on my vacation right now, so just checking in on how all is doing. (I have waaay bad internet here)

For now what I understand is that the map is kinda a long range bombardment map in favor of GDI. I was afraid of this from the start... I will try to fix this asap. If you guys got any ideas, please post them!

Some more cover for tanks is one of the things that could make the map more playable.

(I've also read that making the map a flying map would do the trick, the map isn't build for it though. Could be possible in the long run...)

Ill also address the emptiness in the infantry path and vehicle routes. Placing some bits and bobs should do the trick.

The reason the tib field is so large is that I wanted to encourage more tank gameplay without the hottie/support for the tanks. So pure tank gameplay. I havent seen the map in full gameplay action, I'll try to join a game with it next week so I can experience some of the flaws.

Just one overall question for the map: Is it kinda fun to play? I mean the overall layout and design. This is the first time I've got some feedback on the gameplay.

Thanks for all the feedback 'n stuff. I'll try to make my first UDK/RenX map a memorable one!

PS: The ion storm is not active in the included version (It's bugged in multiplayer anyway).

[RypeL]

I like it so far. Infantry area seems fine and you can do good damage from there to the tanks beneath, so this seems to balance out inf and vehs quite nicely. But only played it two times so far. First impression is good though.

Can't see this becoming a flying map. You can tell it's not designed for that. Just adding some cover for vehicles should do the trick I think.

[Mystic~]

The reason the tib field is so large is that I wanted to encourage more tank gameplay without the hottie/support for the tanks. So pure tank gameplay. I havent seen the map in full gameplay action, I'll try to join a game with it next week so I can experience some of the flaws.

If that's the case you need to make it so infantry are completely cut off from accessing the path/strip of uncovered land closest to the central infantry rock area. You could do this by expanding the Tiberium field or adding more rocks. Nod would have an early game advantage by being able to attack the GDI harvester with Chems similar to Volcano and maybe offset the disadvantage they have of not being able to get stealth units past the Guard Tower.

The other problem is that Nod doesn't really have any good traditional tanks for ranged combat, Artillery is for bombarding from distance, it's not intended to go head to head with other tanks. Because the field is mostly flat and open GDI MRLs have the lock-on advantage from distance that stops most things. Nod needs lots of cover and obstacles because they don't have the armor to face down GDI tanks.

[RypeL]

Harv can get stuck here.

[Schmitzenbergh]

So, I think I have some time to change stuff to the map this week.

I still haven't played it on the servers, but the overall impression is that the map plays semi-well.

The biggest complaint, I think, is that there is no cover in the tiberium field for nod vehicles.

So whats the plan:

• Add some rocks for cover in the Tiberium field (Done)
  
• Change the over saturated bloom on the sunlight(Done)
  
• Remove one segment of the wall of the bases for both sides (Done-For tryouts)
  
• Add some small cover to the silo route for tanks(Done)
  
• Perhaps: remove the silo completely and widen up that path
  
• Fix GDI harv getting stuck on fence(Done)
  
• Making the summit of the inf mountain a little bit less nice for snipers (Raising the rocks so snipers can't snipe as easily as before) (Done)
  
• Move the nod base light pole a little bit back so the turret can rotate properly(Done)

If you guys have any further ideas, post them or shout it to me in game or so.

Small img of the cover in the tib field:

[Schmitzenbergh]

So, even though I had some time this week, It was gone like *Poof*.

I changed some of the rocks on the inf mountain so sniping isn't that easy to do anymore. I placed some cover on both paths and changed some rocks with odd collisions.

Mayor change is the widening of the bases. I removed one wall segment on all walls to see if this works better.

Another big change is the change of skydome. I didn't like the low res default skydome, so I changed it. All the lightrays are removed so the sunlight isn't that IN YO FACE.

Anyway, here are some screenshots of the map.

I will provide a uploadlink asap. Get it @ http://1drv.ms/1MKkzcB

[Schmitzenbergh]

Some more screens.

On a side note. I've played the map a few times now and I've come to understand that the map isn't well liked. (It's a GDI map everyone tells me, yet I always see nod win )If people that have found flaws (which there obviously are) could tell me them, I can address them. I've listened to all the previous problems so why wouldn't I do now while it's in the game.

If I'm reading stuff like "Map sux, why do even people vote for it" I'm becoming curious on what I can do to improve it. If you just don't like the map, well can not help you

I've noticed that the bases are quite hard to defend while being under attack from vehicles. So I created these little wall defence positions ideal for gunners and lcgs to shoot vehicles from the safety of the base. I also thought it was time to give GDI their base color back, so the walls are yellow now

So sniping is a big problem, especially to the bases. I've placed some rocks to block the line of sight that goes directly into the base so you leave the base a little more easily.

This monstrosity is there for the sole purpose of defending the Hon a bit better. MLRS's now need to progress more into the tiberium field thus making them more vurnerable.

[rocky44r]

i played the map around 10 times and nod won just 2 times.

these are the problems, because i think GDI has too many advantages on this map:

- silo is easier to capture for GDI, because they can reach the MCT faster and defend it from their base and with their tanks

- until GT is up, it is really hard (impossible?) for Nod to be sneaky, as the GT kills infantry efficently. and because GDI knows this, noone defends the base and all go attack the enemy base (making it really hard for nod to punish their lack of defense)

- GDI does not care if turret is up or not. turret does not prevent tanks attacking (just does extra damage to tanks and tanks usually have repairs behind them) nor does it prevent infantry attacking (often misses or does not enough damage)

- GDI can c4 rush turret at the beginning of the map, nod can only do a rocket launch rush (that costs money)

- the HoN and nod ref can be shot from much further away than the WF

- the tiberium field gives GDI incredible protection against infantry especially SBHs (SBHs usually steal tanks or timed c4 tanks to control the field)

things i would change:

- silo has to move to a infantry only zone as GDI is too strong with tanks (silo can remain if there is enough cover for nods tanks to be useful)

- add cover on both vehicle paths so nod tanks (light tanks / flamers) have its purpose again (light tanks do less damage, but can evade an attack easier because they are faster. and flamers are made for close quarter combat. both vehicles need a lot of cover to be useful)

- the tiberium field has to become much much smaller or inaccesible for tanks, because it eliminates nod advantages (stronger infantry / SBH) by keeping GDIs advantages (stronger tanks) alive

- remove GT (it is too strong against infantry) or place at least 2 turrets for nod to compensate.

[Ryz]

Here goes the same as I posted for Crashsite, the map is absolutely no problem if people know it and some are willing to defend and others to attack. For GDI getting vehicles usually work, while Nod really needs to organize stuff. 5 stanks (or even the same amount of arties) and it's just gg, but you almost never notice this.

Once we played on Nod with a few regulars we would almost always win. Just get a buggy, stick it full C4 and suicide the GT and you have free play as SBH. I think this map isn't single sided at all, but the adjustments are really welcome!

[Schmitzenbergh]

Thank you for the feedback. I'll go through it step by step.

these are the problems, because i think GDI has too many advantages on this map:

- silo is easier to capture for GDI, because they can reach the MCT faster and defend it from their base and with their tanks

I'm not sure about this one. The mct is facing the nod base so it should be shorter for them. I'll measure this.

- until GT is up, it is really hard (impossible?) for Nod to be sneaky, as the GT kills infantry efficiently. and because GDI knows this, noone defends the base and all go attack the enemy base (making it really hard for nod to punish their lack of defense)

I was thinking of removing the GT, but I'm afraid then the map will be SBH heaven. I'll do some gameplay tests without turrets/GT. Thinking about it.

- GDI does not care if turret is up or not. turret does not prevent tanks attacking (just does extra damage to tanks and tanks usually have repairs behind them) nor does it prevent infantry attacking (often misses or does not enough damage)

Thinking about either doubling turrets or removing GT/Turrets

- GDI can c4 rush turret at the beginning of the map, nod can only do a rocket launch rush (that costs money)

If turrets/GT are kept, I'll put the turret on a pedestal so Flaming/C4 rush isn't possible anymore/harder to do.

- the HoN and nod ref can be shot from much further away than the WF

Well, I can't change the buildings, but I've placed a lot of long range blockades for the tanks forcing them to get more into the open. Also there is more cover in the tib field for nod vehicles so I think this is fixed.

- the tiberium field gives GDI incredible protection against infantry especially SBHs (SBHs usually steal tanks or timed c4 tanks to control the field)

The counter is that the vehicles for all teams are incredibly vulnerable to rockets/lcg/sbh/ravers/dozas from the mountain and tibfield bunker route. How many people nowadays step out of their tank? There are people but its not gamechanging... (My opinion). I'll look into making the tib field smaller, but keep in mind that hotties will be able to repair the tanks again thus making no progress in destroying vehicles.

things i would change:

- silo has to move to a infantry only zone as GDI is too strong with tanks (silo can remain if there is enough cover for nods tanks to be useful)

This is a problem as there is only one infantry only area. There is no space. I'm looking into removing the silo and widening up that path.

- add cover on both vehicle paths so nod tanks (light tanks / flamers) have its purpose again (light tanks do less damage, but can evade an attack easier because they are faster. and flamers are made for close quarter combat. both vehicles need a lot of cover to be useful)

I hear ya. Implemented

- the tiberium field has to become much much smaller or inaccesible for tanks, because it eliminates nod advantages (stronger infantry / SBH) by keeping GDIs advantages (stronger tanks) alive

See above message about the tib field

- remove GT (it is too strong against infantry) or place at least 2 turrets for nod to compensate.

I like this. Perhaps even more then removing them all.

I thank you for the feedback. Try the new version thats up aswell. It already has the covers for tanks and reduced sniper capabilities!

[Schmitzenbergh]

Here goes the same as I posted for Crashsite, the map is absolutely no problem if people know it and some are willing to defend and others to attack. For GDI getting vehicles usually work, while Nod really needs to organize stuff. 5 stanks (or even the same amount of arties) and it's just gg, but you almost never notice this.

Once we played on Nod with a few regulars we would almost always win. Just get a buggy, stick it full C4 and suicide the GT and you have free play as SBH. I think this map isn't single sided at all, but the adjustments are really welcome!

I do know there are problems with the map. I'm being ignorant if I say there are none. But This is what I thought of aswell. All the advantages for GDI also apply to nod. Nod has stronger infantry thus they must use them to guerilla the GDI tanks from the mountain and bunker route.

The GT is a big counter against nod, but a coordinated rush can kill it faster then you can say "the gaurdtower needs repairs".

[rocky44r]

I'm not sure about this one. The mct is facing the nod base so it should be shorter for them. I'll measure this.

nearest spawnpoint for nod is HoN front. from HoN front to silo MCT it takes 1,75 sprintcycles.

nearest spawnpoint for GDI is WF front. from WF front to silo MCT it takes 1,5 sprintcycles.

The counter is that the vehicles for all teams are incredibly vulnerable to rockets/lcg/sbh/ravers/dozas from the mountain and tibfield bunker route. How many people nowadays step out of their tank? There are people but its not gamechanging... (My opinion). I'll look into making the tib field smaller, but keep in mind that hotties will be able to repair the tanks again thus making no progress in destroying vehicles.

well there are still hotties on the sideways of the tiberium field repairing vehicles... but there are no SBH, as they cannot place c4 or steal tanks. placing timed c4 is a big counter to MRLS and helps a lot bringing a tank to low hp, so raveshaws can finish it off.

the games usually play like this:

at the beginn a little fight for crates / silo, maybe if its a good team a rush to destroy turret / GT

usually GDI gets the silo and/or manages to kill the turret

then GDI can buy MRLS a few precious minutes before nod can buy artys

then GDI starts to attack HoN from tiberium field and nod goes full defensive

you usually have 2-4 techs/engis just running between ref and hon repairing it, 1-2 snipers trying to kill hotties and mrls in field, a 1-2 SBHs who would like to sneak in, but are stuck in HoN defending it by shooting at the mrls. those few who get a tank at nod also need heavy support from tech/engi to even be able to damage anything.

by that time GDI can purchase meds and they start coming from the silo path. nod buys 2-3 raveshaws and is super busy defending.

finally GDI has enough money to buy mammoth and ion. they rush silo path and place the ion at the border of the airstrip where they can EASILY defend it, because nod spawn points are far away, they have stronger tanks, can kill new purchased nod tanks and the border of the airstrip isn't covered by the walls (so they can defend it from range and don't have to drive in to the nod base).

ion goes off, kills AIR and it's GG. sometimes nod also loses ref and/or hon, because it is hard to always run between those two targets and keep everything alive.

meanwhile the silo never changed ownership from GDI, as there are a lot of meds and mammuths on that path.

infanty only zone usually is deserted... you find 1-2 snipers there...

This is a problem as there is only one infantry only area. There is no space. I'm looking into removing the silo and widening up that path.

i like the silo, but GDI is too strong with tanks and can hold it easily. maybe the additional cover helps nod keeping up...

other way to fix it, is to widen infantry area at the top and place the silo there... would also bring life to that area...

Well, I can't change the buildings, but I've placed a lot of long range blockades for the tanks forcing them to get more into the open. Also there is more cover in the tib field for nod vehicles so I think this is fixed.

but you can rotate or place the buildings somewhere else...

personally i think nod's spawn points are too far away from base entrance compared to GDI's. also the WF is coverd by the walls, but airstrip's end is not covered, making it super easy to defend an ion there... they don't have to drive in.

also: everytime nod buys a vehicle there is this dense fog at the entrance of nods base, which helps hotties to sneak in.

how about you rotate air so that the tower with the spawn points is near base entrance AND the complete strip is covered by the walls? GDI would have to rush in to plant ion, just like nod has to, if they want to nuke WF.

it seems more fair, as GDI bar and WF are also covered completely by the walls and they have most of their spawn points near base entrance...

you could also switch places of airstrip and HON or WF and bar, as hon can be shot from the tiberium field very early (giving an advantage to gdi), but nod has to drive further in to hit WF. ref can be hit by both from the same distance...

I thank you for the feedback. Try the new version thats up aswell. It already has the covers for tanks and reduced sniper capabilities!

you're welcome. thanks for hearing me out. will try the new map when we get the new launcher and it gets easier playing new maps with other people...

Just get a buggy, stick it full C4 and suicide the GT and you have free play as SBH.

to do this you need to have at least one vehicle path and usually GDI has both... you can do this early on and be lucky (as most MRLS would drive to tiberium field), but if it fails you probably won't be able to do this again...

and thats not very fair, as GT prevents all infantry actions from nod

[rocky44r]

just tested ryz approch of c4 suicide the GT.

the GT does a lot of damage to light armored vehicles... in most cases the buggy doesn't even survive... you have to drive to the walls, repair and from the border of the walls you can reach the GT with ~100 hp and then you need at least 8 remote c4's to kill the GT. this means you have to be 2 engis as you can't have more than 4 active remotes per player.

even then... beeing successful isn't that easy. you reach the GT with 100 hp on your buggy, but other people are shooting you and one of the 2 engis has to get out of the buggy detonate his c4, then the other has to go out and detonate his 4... and this all without dying or blowing up your buggy (as the remotes on the buggy despawn if your buggy dies)...

and as i said... after this initial rush... good luck finding a vehicle path which is owned by nod...

[Ryz]

the GT does a lot of damage to light armored vehicles... in most cases the buggy doesn't even survive... you have to drive to the walls, repair and from the border of the walls you can reach the GT with ~100 hp and then you need at least 8 remote c4's to kill the GT. this means you have to be 2 engis as you can't have more than 4 active remotes per player.

even then... beeing successful isn't that easy. you reach the GT with 100 hp on your buggy, but other people are shooting you and one of the 2 engis has to get out of the buggy detonate his c4, then the other has to go out and detonate his 4... and this all without dying or blowing up your buggy (as the remotes on the buggy despawn if your buggy dies)...

Managed to do this multiple times with Nod. It requires a bit of skill, a lot of ignorance on the enemy side (which is usually the biggest factor for success) and some teamwork (which is hard to find). I am pretty sure it does work great, but you also have to be lucky.

and as i said... after this initial rush... good luck finding a vehicle path which is owned by nod...

Nod doesn't need to conquer any vehicle path. Just sneak 4 stanks behind enemy vehicles and DO NOT fire / get out / take a crate / smoke a blunt / whatever else besides head for the enemy base and shoot together and you might have luck. Factor is that a 'combined vehicle rush' is far more common on GDI, while most people on Nod tend to go other units (SBH most likely) while still not communicating. As I always say: one fist is stronger than 5 fingers... In this way GDI has more chances of winning, cause it's more likely the vehicles get together OUTSIDE the enemy base than stealth units meeting eachother inside the enemy base (unless communicating).

I do know there are problems with the map. I'm being ignorant if I say there are none. But This is what I thought of aswell. All the advantages for GDI also apply to nod. Nod has stronger infantry thus they must use them to guerilla the GDI tanks from the mountain and bunker route.

Sure things can be changed / upgraded, but I always liked the map. I know that people think off me as someone always complaining (cause I do about teamwork). But I never underestimated the work people put into the game. What I always see if that EVERY change gets rewarded with hate by 'new' people. Quotes like: "This wasn't like this in the original Renegade" , or: "This map sucks, cause it isn't walls / field / insert random well know map."

What also adjusts the way people feel about a map are these things:

- A few weeks ago (and maybe now, but I haven't played that much) there was a lot of stacking

- Some people tend to always play GDI / Nod and do not let the 'faith' judge on which side they are.

In case of the last scenario: I don't mind if I lose after a proper fight while being on Nod (which is on this case described as the team which most likely loses, but not in my own experience). But if you always switch to one side you might end-up with more people doing this, and break the balancing. But reason one sounds far more valid.

And to be honest: I complain about teamwork, but if it's there (and not (over)stacked), than it's what decides the outcome of a map and NOT the map itself...

[Ryz]

Small sidenote: the people who post their feedback here are a different kind than the ones complaining ingame!

[Schmitzenbergh]

Some progress:

20_GK_NEW.png[/attachment]

[Cherno]

The map looks good but the large view distances combined with the dozens if not hundreds of trees in the background and perimeter makes my FPS go down. Granted, I run a rather old rig but this is the only map that makes problem. It's unplayable in the tiberium part for me, the other side where the silo is is slightly better. Maybe some of the trees could be removed?

[rocky44r]

Maybe some of the trees could be removed?

maybe your graphics settings could be moved to low?

maybe a new graphics card could be bought?

questions over questions ^^ we will never know the truth

[Henk]

Maybe some of the trees could be removed?

maybe your graphics settings could be moved to low?

maybe a new graphics card could be bought?

questions over questions ^^ we will never know the truth

You would have a point if he had bad framerates on other maps as well, but if the framerate is way lower on this map than on all the other maps then that needs to be improved imo.

[rocky44r]

there will always be bigger maps or maps with more detail, which require more power...

and how has he framerate issues on grassyknoll but not on crash site? that seems wrong

on the other side i'm just fooling around and can't say much about it... most maps run on 60 fps for me...

[Schmitzenbergh]

The map looks good but the large view distances combined with the dozens if not hundreds of trees in the background and perimeter makes my FPS go down. Granted, I run a rather old rig but this is the only map that makes problem. It's unplayable in the tiberium part for me, the other side where the silo is is slightly better. Maybe some of the trees could be removed?

I'll take a look at it. I've changed some of the culling distances so I hope performance goes up.

I'll also remove some particles int he tib field.

Get ready for a new release in a few hours, I hope.

[Schmitzenbergh]

Version 1.3.5 release

Another day, another update.

Can't say that much. Some changes have been done, read them below

-Removed some trees to make the performance better.
-Removed the silo and made a new vehicle path
-Added rocks for more cover
-Added a new tech building with the terminal up the mountain. The terminal will spawn 2 rocket emplacements for the team that captures them. The rocket emplacements will spawn in the base of the capturer. So the team that is King of the hill gets more defences, should help nod in defending. (As well as forcing players to use the hill)
-Added a second turret for nod to counter the GDI watchtower's efficiency.
-Perhaps some small thing I don't remember.

Downloadlink @ https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3393ABC29E26F205!123345&authkey=!AN6hcRR8XvtrWt0&ithint=file%2czip

When the map is on the testing server, the new beta launcher should get it automagically.

[TK0104]

Did you gave the map another name (for example: CNC-GrassyKnoll_Test) to prevent version mismatch?