Civil War - Maps with the same faction against itself

[Draken Stark]

A lot of people are talking about how unbalanced the game is atm. Currently I could agree with them, but such is the way of things. To enjoy a game sometimes you really do need to balance the field to add some variety. How about a setting that allows you to battle GDI vs GDI or Nod vs Nod? In-game it could still be GDI vs Nod, however the art and unit classes are that of one faction with two different skins (One normal and the other a colorized version of the other faction).

I personally think that this may also explore the balance between unit classes more since there are talks of balance issues with that and not just between the factions.

What I'd hope for is a server option or gametype that allows this. Maybe call it "Mirrored Universe mode" or similar.

From this thread:

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Why not just call it "Civil War" mode?

Civil War would imply that in-game it isn't GDI vs Nod. I'd like to think that spies have taken over an enemy base and is using it to attack another enemy base, so it's still going to be GDI vs Nod in-game. I am aware that spies are more of a Red Alert thing, but there have been special campaign scenarios in many C&C games before that have bent the basic multiplayer rules.

Why have it GDI vs Nod? Just give one of the team's a purple color.

Civil war is actually realistic in CNC. The two subfactions for nod and GDI in TS were known to not agree or completely get alone with one another. Having the "spy" thing is unrealistic because the GDI should not have access to Nod's aresnal, and nod should not have access to GDI's aresenal at all. The storyline of renegade made sure of that.

I can't argue with that. What you're mentioning would involve even more work from the dev team as they would have to edit all of the current faction's UI elements as well as a reskin. If the dev team is up to it then great either way!

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...

I doubt it would be official, it's really not the way the game is meant to be played.

I could make the same argument about sprinting, yet it's an improvement that made it into the game. I believe that checking class balance is important and should be invested in. What I'd like to point out is how adding this feature could be like hitting two birds with one stone.

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Yeah, kinda the same thing with the railgun.

Just cross out and write on Nod in a crude front.

Not everything Nod steals needs to be quick and crude. I still think it should just take everything gold/yellow from the GDI stuff and make it red instead.

They can't even assemble their vehicles at the battlefield. If they paint the vehicles at all, they wouldn't put too much effort into it.

I guess painting them red would make sense from a gameplay perspective though.

For balance reasons, they should be using GDI buildings that are colored red as well.

Yeah mirror matches are pretty normal in all games. From what I've read, a map where NOD has captured a GDI base would be pretty sweet with the appropriate cosmetic changes and what not. I like the crude NOD tagging idea, because in CnC they throw that paint up pretty quick when you capture a building ya know

I thought it was a funny play on the mechanics of CnC as well. This style would work best if there's still no gold showing on the Nod side. Maybe Nod could also go for a wet and runny paint look.

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I think it's the very core reason how the game is meant to be played.

We've been fighting GDI vs Nod for over a decade now. Imagine having to go GDI vs GDI on a map like Islands? How would that play out? What strategies would be effective?

It's a very good way to diversify the game and give a nice refreshing change on all of the maps.

Should this Civil War mode be put together, we may find out what works too well and what doesn't at all. This is what I hope to find out and hopefully some balancing can be made to work well with both GDI vs Nod and Civil War game modes.

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So there has yet to be any kind of confirmation from any devs or staff. Has this thread been noticed at least? It'd be nice to know that there's at least some potential discussion of this Civil War game mode among those who can include it.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Guest

[dubstar]

This is a excellent idea, It would be intense to play the same factions against each other

make the maps symmetrical and there you go

needs a better name tho

[Methanoid]

oh nice idea, NOD vs NOD or GDI vs GDI would make for some interesting and varied games.

[Christopher]

i think its a lame idea because both factions are similar enough as it is. what little differences they have are negligible.

[Drury]

i think its a lame idea because both factions are similar enough as it is. what little differences they have are negligible.

GDI has no SBH. Nod has no mams. GDI has no Stank. Nod has no McFarland. GDI has no flame tank. Nod has no MRLS.

There's quite a bit of a difference between the two. Much more so than CnC3 and up where they are pretty much reskins of each other.

[Christopher]

i think its a lame idea because both factions are similar enough as it is. what little differences they have are negligible.

GDI has no SBH. Nod has no mams. GDI has no Stank. Nod has no McFarland. GDI has no flame tank. Nod has no MRLS.

There's quite a bit of a difference between the two. Much more so than CnC3 and up where they are pretty much reskins of each other.

yawn....

[SeriousPan]

You're so mature, Christopher. Your compelling argument has made me see how right your comment was! Not.

I agree I'd love to see GDI vs GDI and vice versa. I'd definitely love to see a kind of 'stealth' war with NOD vs NOD and just a pure brawn fight with the GDI sides.

[HaTe]

Why not just call it "Civil War" mode?

[SeriousPan]

Because that's a bit too genius a name.

[Sebqt]

I like this from a competitive standpoint.

GDI v GDI Map 1.

Nod v Nod Map 1.

Nod v GDI Map 2.

GDI v Map 2.

[HaTe]

Why would GDI play vs a map? ;P

[Drury]

GDI versus Tiberium.

They have to produce and drive harvesters to harvest all the Tiberium on the map before it overwhelms them.

[Daedhart]

Hmm, I dunno. I wouldnt mind seeing a few maps like this as a proof of concept, but I can safely say it would probably lead to a boring stand-off most of the time. Each faction has advantages and disadvantages unique to them, so the tactics Nod takes should be drastically different from those that GDI takes. If both teams have the exact same advantages, strategy gets tossed out the window and it ends up with who has the "most". Most of what? Doesnt matter. Whichever flame rush has the most flame tanks, stanks, mammys, artys, et cetera.

[Valor]

Seems interesting. This would be similar to a fighting game where both players use the same character (happens a lot), or an RTS game where both players choose the same race.

An easy way to implement this would be to have both sides access the same Purchase Terminals. Not perfect since the buildings would still be different.

And you're right, no one can claim the other side is OP.

[MPF PwnCall]

I think a Nod vs Nod map was made for original ren.

I am making one for the orignal ren where both teams have all of the vehicles

[Draken Stark]

Hmm, I dunno. I wouldnt mind seeing a few maps like this as a proof of concept, but I can safely say it would probably lead to a boring stand-off most of the time. Each faction has advantages and disadvantages unique to them, so the tactics Nod takes should be drastically different from those that GDI takes. If both teams have the exact same advantages, strategy gets tossed out the window and it ends up with who has the "most". Most of what? Doesnt matter. Whichever flame rush has the most flame tanks, stanks, mammys, artys, et cetera.

This is why I'm proposing to set up the game for class balancing and not just GDI vs Nod balancing.

Seems interesting. This would be similar to a fighting game where both players use the same character (happens a lot), or an RTS game where both players choose the same race.

An easy way to implement this would be to have both sides access the same Purchase Terminals. Not perfect since the buildings would still be different.

And you're right, no one can claim the other side is OP.

The buildings would be the same, just with a different coat of paint based on what "faction" you are in-game.

Why not just call it "Civil War" mode?

Civil War would imply that in-game it isn't GDI vs Nod. I'd like to think that spies have taken over an enemy base and is using it to attack another enemy base, so it's still going to be GDI vs Nod in-game. I am aware that spies are more of a Red Alert thing, but there have been special campaign scenarios in many C&C games before that have bent the basic multiplayer rules.

i think its a lame idea because both factions are similar enough as it is. what little differences they have are negligible.

Stealth tank vs a Mammoth tank is not an equal match, both sides are different enough to merit a balance of classes within each faction.

...

I am making one for the orignal ren where both teams have all of the vehicles

While I'd love to have a Renegade X map with this idea, I'm not sure it would defeat the point of a balance of classes within each faction as I'm trying to propose. Perhaps there were a tech building that allowed the purchase of the excluded faction's vehicles and/or troops within this mode?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Guest

[HaTe]

Why have it GDI vs Nod? Just give one of the team's a purple color.

Civil war is actually realistic in CNC. The two subfactions for nod and GDI in TS were known to not agree or completely get alone with one another. Having the "spy" thing is unrealistic because the GDI should not have access to Nod's aresnal, and nod should not have access to GDI's aresenal at all. The storyline of renegade made sure of that.

[Draken Stark]

Why have it GDI vs Nod? Just give one of the team's a purple color.

Civil war is actually realistic in CNC. The two subfactions for nod and GDI in TS were known to not agree or completely get alone with one another. Having the "spy" thing is unrealistic because the GDI should not have access to Nod's aresnal, and nod should not have access to GDI's aresenal at all. The storyline of renegade made sure of that.

I can't argue with that. What you're mentioning would involve even more work from the dev team as they would have to edit all of the current faction's UI elements as well as a reskin. If the dev team is up to it then great either way!

What I believe would be ideal for the devs in this case, are monochrome UI and Skin elements that allowed for the devs to hue into whatever color they needed for each faction.

[HaTe]

Well new maps would have to be made regardless if this gamemode was ever made. They'd have to be symmetrical entirely. You wouldn't have to redesign or redo much - just have the skin's and text's colors be purple instead of yellow or red for one of the teams. Really, it would just take a mapmaker with a decent amount of coding knowledge to be able to to make such a gamemode.

I'm sure ACK could manage it, actually - if he liked the concept.

[R315r4z0r]

Plus, we don't know how they coded the game mode. GDI stuff might be hard coded as GDI stuff and always an enemy to Nod stuff... so it may not necessarily be just the flick of a switch allows you to attack another GDI team.

I have no idea what I'm talking about here. I like the idea of having this sort of option. I'm just unsure of how easy it would be to implement.

[Trev-MUN]

I could get behind this; there's enough basis for it in Command and Conquer's setting. Nod is the faction most susceptible to infighting, as you have to deal Hassan's forces in Tiberian Sun, and Killian's in Tiberian Wars. Seth from Tiberian Dawn, that could have easily turned into a Nod vs. Nod situation if Kane didn't nip that problem in the bud.

GDI vs. GDI could be explained by Nod using stolen GDI materiel; in fact I think this actually happens in the very mission where Kane deals with Seth's ambitions back in Tiberian Dawn.

[Blade]

Fuck it. Just make Granatball X.

That would be interesting. I love Granatball. Make a symmetrical map, both teams get GDI buildings with Nod turrets, give the buildings a certain function like spawning bots, "creeps" if you want to and then BAM give everyone slowly traveling instagib grenades. Slap on the UT announcer and we got ourselves a masterpiece.

Guess it would need a lot of work though...

[Aircraftkiller]

Well new maps would have to be made regardless if this gamemode was ever made. They'd have to be symmetrical entirely. You wouldn't have to redesign or redo much - just have the skin's and text's colors be purple instead of yellow or red for one of the teams. Really, it would just take a mapmaker with a decent amount of coding knowledge to be able to to make such a gamemode.

I'm sure ACK could manage it, actually - if he liked the concept.

I'm flattered you think I'm capable of coding, but I'm just a simple artist. I can't code unless there's a GUI that does the work for me. Looking at notepad for hours makes me want to punch my monitor.

[HaTe]

Ah I thought that by changing the vehicles in fjords, you had done some coding. As well as adding different functions to new buildings. I guess those must have been easy changes, then? I'm no coder myself, so I have little to no idea on how easy certain things are or are not.

[Aircraftkiller]

Changing vehicles doesn't require coding in Renegade. You change out the model and re-rig it to work with the engine. It's a visual change that also impacts the code, but requires no coding on my part. The other changes were scripts changes that were just GUI stuff. I clicked what I wanted to change, that's about it.

[iran]

Looking at notepad for hours makes me want to punch my monitor.

It's actually very relaxing.

[Draken Stark]

So are there any devs or active staff here to confirm that this may or may not be implemented in Renegade X?

[Valor]

This seems like a server modification. I doubt it would be official, it's really not the way the game is meant to be played.

[Draken Stark]

...

I doubt it would be official, it's really not the way the game is meant to be played.

I could make the same argument about sprinting, yet it's an improvement that made it into the game. I believe that checking class balance is important and should be invested in. What I'd like to point out is how adding this feature could be like hitting two birds with one stone.

[SFJake]

It'd be more like pretending you fixed anything. This would fix nothing and just remove half of all the interesting things in the game. Why should this be supported? This is about throwing more than half of what Renegade is away, so I'd say lets not do this at all, thank you.

[Agent]

It'd actually be great to see something like this, though it would absolutely require some significant tweaking so that teams can differentiated Example: The RCON protocol just gives "GDI" or "Nod", so things like !pl on bots would just display everybody as GDI/Nod. In that case, they'd probable have to change identifiers from strings to integers, like 0=GDI, 1=Nod, 2=GDI2, 3=Nod2. I'm sure there are other areas that would require tweaking, though it does seem like an interesting/good idea (I'm always up for more maps!).

[Trev-MUN]

Yeah. I really don't see why something like this can't or shouldn't be done eventually. Just look at TF2 and some of the really fun game modes people came up with: Pyro Dodgeball, TF2Ware, Prop Hunt, etc.

[Draken Stark]

It'd be more like pretending you fixed anything. This would fix nothing and just remove half of all the interesting things in the game. Why should this be supported? This is about throwing more than half of what Renegade is away, so I'd say lets not do this at all, thank you.

It doesn't sound like you've really read my reasoning.

[dubstar]

The whole point of RenegadeX is to bring Renegade upto date. Game modes play a big part in todays gaming experiences. This is genuinely a great idea

[Unit]

both teams full SBH, gogo.

[R315r4z0r]

I think it's the very core reason how the game is meant to be played.

We've been fighting GDI vs Nod for over a decade now. Imagine having to go GDI vs GDI on a map like Islands? How would that play out? What strategies would be effective?

It's a very good way to diversify the game and give a nice refreshing change on all of the maps.

[Trev-MUN]

I still say that in a GDI vs. GDI scenario, the Other GDI should be Nod posing as GDI. Maybe have crudely stenciled Nod logos over the GDI symbols, the base classes wearing Nod uniforms under their GDI equipment. Black Hand operatives wearing Dead-6 gear rather than the Dead-6 members, etc.

[Blade]

I still say that in a GDI vs. GDI scenario, the Other GDI should be Nod posing as GDI. Maybe have crudely stenciled Nod logos over the GDI symbols, the base classes wearing Nod uniforms under their GDI equipment. Black Hand operatives wearing Dead-6 gear rather than the Dead-6 members, etc.

Yeah, kinda the same thing with the railgun.

Just cross out and write on Nod in a crude front.

[Draken Stark]

Yeah, kinda the same thing with the railgun.

Just cross out and write on Nod in a crude front.

Not everything Nod steals needs to be quick and crude. I still think it should just take everything gold/yellow from the GDI stuff and make it red instead.

[Blade]

Not everything Nod steals needs to be quick and crude. I still think it should just take everything gold/yellow from the GDI stuff and make it red instead.

They can't even assemble their vehicles at the battlefield. If they paint the vehicles at all, they wouldn't put too much effort into it.

I guess painting them red would make sense from a gameplay perspective though.

[Draken Stark]

They can't even assemble their vehicles at the battlefield. If they paint the vehicles at all, they wouldn't put too much effort into it.

I guess painting them red would make sense from a gameplay perspective though.

For balance reasons, they should be using GDI buildings that are colored red as well.

UPDATE: I'd just updated the original post with quotes, to help anyone who doesn't want to read the entire thread start to finish.

[Sammy_Bananas]

Yeah mirror matches are pretty normal in all games. From what I've read, a map where NOD has captured a GDI base would be pretty sweet with the appropriate cosmetic changes and what not. I like the crude NOD tagging idea, because in CnC they throw that paint up pretty quick when you capture a building ya know

[Draken Stark]

Yeah mirror matches are pretty normal in all games. From what I've read, a map where NOD has captured a GDI base would be pretty sweet with the appropriate cosmetic changes and what not. I like the crude NOD tagging idea, because in CnC they throw that paint up pretty quick when you capture a building ya know

I thought it was a funny play on the mechanics of CnC as well. This style would work best if there's still no gold showing on the Nod side. Maybe Nod could also go for a wet and runny paint look.

[Soldieroffate]

I like this idea. Especially with how frequent infighting can be in Nod, as seen in TibSun and beyond. That and it would open doors to some interesting scenarios that would scale out the game's current flaws in regards to faction balance.