Nod has even more become the Underdog?

[Ryz]

First of all I am posting this based on what I've seen in past weeks. i think out of +/- 40 games Nod only won two. I am not sure if my statistic correspond with the reality, but both in PUGS and PUBS when balanced teams Nod tends to lose waay more often these days. In PUBs the chance is even higher than a PUG.

Some reason for this were always there:
- Nod requires more teamwork (cause less firepower which can take a beating)
- Nod tends to attract people who play hide and seek 
- I guess in Nod players are less on the lookout for infiltrations

Newly added to this are things like:
- A few maps which are harder for Nod. The new Islands is super hard for Nod cause arties can be hit from everywhere and sneaking is hard for base defense. Same with Forest (I have a seperate topic about this).
- The continous use / abuse of MRLS loop. The majority of the games I've played this week had this. There is continous rockets landing in Nod base
- The new mines (even harder to sneak often) 

I wonder about two things:
- how others think about the above?
- if statistics prove what I 'feel'. I am not talking about long term statistics, but about them for the past months till two months. Feels like Nod has become weaker since some changes (which I cannot pinpoint).

Interested to hear feedback!

Edited August 21, 2020 by Ryz

[roweboat]

Well I'm not expert. But I do feel like most people try to play both sides the same ways.

Most don't understand how to properly use light tank's speed or stealth tank's stealth. Sbh are spotted more easily than people understand.

Whereas GDI playstyle is very straightforward. 

Nod has a higher learning curve so if newer players are using Nod, it would make sense if Nod is losing more often.

 

[Tytonium]

I'm willing to bet that this problem is related to player experience and the sheer amount of times that we've all played the same maps.

Player counts are honing in on what they used to be before the Firestorm trailer. As that happens we are getting closer to having the majority of players that are part of the core group of renx that always stick around. We're all fairly experienced with this game and know the odds and ends of gameplay. Nod's cheeky stealth tactics don't tend to work well when plenty of GDI players know the best Nod strategies/hiding spots/sneak paths for sbh and stanks.

As for maps, I'm sure a lot of people have island/field/walls/under counts in triple digits for times played. A good example would be how everyone who plays Islands knows which building to check first if GDI's mine count drops. This and tons of other examples across all the maps we've played countless times turns Nod's sneak tactics more into a strategy that is highly luck based, even if teamwork is being utilized well. So these days Nod is having to go more head-to-head against GDI, and well... good luck with that.

Got 2 solutions. One is to just wait for Firestorm to come out. That will bring in legions of new players and re-invent the meta along with adding new maps.

The other solution which I am in favor of and believe to be the best idea is to r̵e̷q̶u̶i̵r̸e̷ ̴a̴ ̶b̵l̷o̸o̵d̵ ̵a̷l̸c̷o̵h̸o̵l̶ ̷l̶e̵v̸e̷l̵ ̷o̸f̶ ̵a̷t̶ ̵l̴e̶a̷s̷t̵ ̵0̶.̶1̵0̸ ̷i̷n̶ ̵o̸r̵d̷e̵r̷ ̴t̷o̶ ̸p̶l̴a̴y̷ for players with hours greater than 100. That would make balance much more fair.

[roweboat]

yes thats another thing to consider, even if your stealth tactics are good, there are only so many places to hide. And a good GDI player will know to check them all.

[Mystic~]

How to play Nod.

Step 1. Do an early artillery assault
Step 2. Pretend to do some other strategy
Step 3. Gather all team as dozers and assault the barracks.

If that doesn't work then you're probably on a map that requires team work, like Walls or Outposts.

Re Islands X, I think you're just used to using strat outlined in step 1 and expecting it to work every time, I actually welcome being able to run the different raised rocks to hit camping artillery, but snipers are ever persistent and can counter this.

I'd welcome some sort of clay-more mine with laser area detection that can be used to help break apart and prevent large group infantry rushes, but maybe they're easy enough for a single tech or hotwire to sneak past or even disarm. It's a little frustrating knowing that defenders now have an extra pool of mines they can still use around buildings if they want to, I was sort of expecting these to be used out in the field.

I also think that stealth tanks have become more difficult to use because people have learned how to more easily counter them, learned the places they're likely to be hiding and often there are people shooting randomly in the hope of catching one. Flame tanks I think get excluded from the majority of games now, a couple can be useful on maps like Islands and Reservoir, but they are slow, clunky and limited in aim compared to the mammoth tank that has great armor, great damage output and good range.

In the late game Nod struggles to defeat GDI mammoth tank armour and doesn't have the damage output to stop them unless there are players with EMPs and/or airstrikes, which isn't always the case.

[Ryz]

Surprised nobody is mentioning the MRLS loop.
- On Islands you can shoot near and in HON from around the corner of GDI base
- On Field you can shoot near and (maybe) in HON from the GDI base exit

Sure there is more spots

One these maps Nod cannot use one of the two mayor defence points because the looping. 

[HavocPrime]

decrease the height of both Hand on Nod and Refineries

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

On 8/21/2020 at 3:31 PM, Ryz said:

First of all I am posting this based on what I've seen in past weeks. i think out of +/- 40 games Nod only won two. I am not sure if my statistic correspond with the reality, but both in PUGS and PUBS when balanced teams Nod tends to lose waay more often these days.

You know what would help with Nod's win/loss ratio? Mainline Recon Bikes in all maps for at least $500 bucks a piece. $250 seems too cheap. I mean if they're as overpowered as some devs allude to then obviously the price needs to be higher.

Yoshi, any thoughts?

Edited August 23, 2020 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[Cassiel]

It's a competitive gamemode played, as of recently at least, mostly casually.

Nod requires tactics and team work to be effective, whereas someone who has no idea what they're doing can always pick up a mammoth and at the very least be a nuisance to the enemy team.

One other thing i noticed is that GDI seems to have the advantage in high playercount matches, which we're getting pretty consistently since the Firestorm trailer dropped (since, y'know, GDI benefits from the "strength in numbers" paradigm).

You get everything from people who don't know the map, yet pilot a chinook in a chinook rush, to people who outright refuse to cooperate. It's gotten significantly harder to command as of late, and i'm sure i'm not the only one who noticed that. As GDI, provided you have a few people on your team who play reps and defense, you can be fairly useful just by being in a med or a mammoth, while Nod more often than not doesn't have that luxury (ahem, SBHs).

 

We could try having a server with a lower player cap, like 40 or 50, and see how that works.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Cassiel

[slashes]

On 8/23/2020 at 4:41 AM, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

You know what would help with Nod's win/loss ratio? Mainline Recon Bikes in all maps for at least $500 bucks a piece. $250 seems too cheap. I mean if they're as overpowered as some devs allude to then obviously the price needs to be higher.

Yoshi, any thoughts?

its not that there overpowerdt tho there just hard to hit+i think they men the attack cycle that things very op when ya get 1 from the crate ya can destroy buildings very easily. the attack cycles deals 3 stealth tanks of damage per missile barrage very suprising people arent aware of this also the missile's ya get turn to 8-10 respectfully when ranking up meaning it turns to 4-5 stealth tanks hitting with ranks up

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

@slashes We're talking about the Recon Bike, not the tiberium sun attack cycle. The Recon Bike is hard to hit but they're also hard to drive. Lead your shots when trying to hit them. I assume the devs made them more powerful than they are supposed to be because it's mostly a crate-only unit; the trouble to get one should be worth it. Their damage output is too much for their cost, so obviously adjustments need to be made before bringing them back into the fold. Raise their price and lower their damage so players won't forgo stealth tanks in favor of them. For more details check my thread out:

Re-implementing the bike in Renegade has been done before. No reason not to do it in Renegade X, aside from emotional issues and/or lack of resources; that new tiberium sun mod is proly hoggin all the team's time and resources. That new mod looks fantastic.

Edited August 26, 2020 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[Gex_str]

I would say this on topic of why Nod loses much more:

1)By design they need brains to use terrain advantage and their units or cooperation to destroy GDI. Good luck getting that in pubs.

2)Way too many situational units:

   Chem Warrior Trooper - requires tight spaces like tunnels to be effective against fast GDI infantry (he's still good as of 5.463).

   SBH(Stealth Black Hand) - having unique armor that makes him not viable at all against Mobius and having stealth technology, which many people usually use to only hide (I actually really want to know why new players do this so often). Mostly because of that Nod doesn't have good middle advanced anti-infantry unit like GDI has with Patch.

Flame Tank - as was mentioned already, REQUIRES CHOKE POINTS, since its flamethrowers have small cone of fire, which makes it non-viable against infantry much. If I would say anything, this tank is close range Mammoth Tank - can kill tanks fast enough, but he's number one target for everyone.

Stealth Tank - yet again, stealth unit, so it already suffers from "I love to hide forever" new player syndrome. Also requires cooperation to kill anything higher than MRLS alone(but with abusing terrain and his slow spinning animation, you could probably kill Mammoth solo). At least decent AA unit.

LCG(Laser ChainGunner) - definition of a tank on 2 legs, he has insane armor values(250/325/400/475), but also being slowest unit in the game(85 speed). Due to this and his weapon of choice having very limited range, he's mostly good as defensive unit. Carries EMP Grenade, which already screams in teamwork being required, unless targets themselves aren't too bright either.

3)Recent changes to mines, but that hurt both sides I think.

I think that some of Nod units should be made more interesting to play(but then again, how are you gonna make a mantank interesting to play?), give them incentive to get out of stealth more or just limit stealth on SBH, like Infiltrator in Planetside 2(for those who never heard or played it, Infiltrator is class that has limited time for stealth, which regenerates its charge when you don't use it).

[NodSaibot]

53 minutes ago, Gex_str said:

LCG(Laser ChainGunner) - definition of a tank on 2 legs, he has insane armor values(250/325/400/475), but also being slowest unit in the game(85 speed). Due to this and his weapon of choice having very limited range, he's mostly good as defensive unit. Carries EMP Grenade, which already screams in teamwork being required, unless targets themselves aren't too bright either.

Not only this, but gunner can pop around corners and shoot rockets, while LCG must stay visible to shoot his LCG. GDI just has more burst dmg, while being high HP and Nod has more sustained damage stuff (flame tank, stank kind of, lcg, chem trooper etc), while lacking in armour. Nod must remain out in the open to fire their entire clip, while GDI generally can peak and kill stuff easily, and at the same time, GDI also is hard to burst due to their high armour

[slashes]

57 minutes ago, Gex_str said:

I would say this on topic of why Nod loses much more:

1)By design they need brains to use terrain advantage and their units or cooperation to destroy GDI. Good luck getting that in pubs.

2)Way too many situational units:

   Chem Warrior Trooper - requires tight spaces like tunnels to be effective against fast GDI infantry (he's still good as of 5.463).

   SBH(Stealth Black Hand) - having unique armor that makes him not viable at all against Mobius and having stealth technology, which many people usually use to only hide (I actually really want to know why new players do this so often). Mostly because of that Nod doesn't have good middle advanced anti-infantry unit like GDI has with Patch.

Flame Tank - as was mentioned already, REQUIRES CHOKE POINTS, since its flamethrowers have small cone of fire, which makes it non-viable against infantry much. If I would say anything, this tank is close range Mammoth Tank - can kill tanks fast enough, but he's number one target for everyone.

Stealth Tank - yet again, stealth unit, so it already suffers from "I love to hide forever" new player syndrome. Also requires cooperation to kill anything higher than MRLS alone(but with abusing terrain and his slow spinning animation, you could probably kill Mammoth solo). At least decent AA unit.

LCG(Laser ChainGunner) - definition of a tank on 2 legs, he has insane armor values(250/325/400/475), but also being slowest unit in the game(85 speed). Due to this and his weapon of choice having very limited range, he's mostly good as defensive unit. Carries EMP Grenade, which already screams in teamwork being required, unless targets themselves aren't too bright either.

3)Recent changes to mines, but that hurt both sides I think.

I think that some of Nod units should be made more interesting to play(but then again, how are you gonna make a mantank interesting to play?), give them incentive to get out of stealth more or just limit stealth on SBH, like Infiltrator in Planetside 2(for those who never heard or played it, Infiltrator is class that has limited time for stealth, which regenerates its charge when you don't use it).

1.st the chem/flametrooper need pin point 100% accurate aim to deal damage this wasent the case in the old renegade due to the much large cone they dealth with the target being more ofthen hit good bit of center the closer they got to the max reach  bringing that back with some extra range might be the option to lesson it for nod.

1.1.the stealth black hand ones in the old renegade ya could give them sniper rifles of drops.that  needed ya to sacrefize a sniper character on ya team or get lucky on the battlefield for a weapon drop. maybe give nod an option to buy the black hands sniper rifle for sbh with a 1000 or so credit cost or the ramjet sniper making them viable sniper with the added restriction of them cloaking less fast if there using sniper rifles?

1.2 the nodchain gunner havent played this one much at all but whenever i played it kinda found its chaingun kinda weak remember it being stronger to use but, could just be to compensate with it getting the emp grenade with the class.

1.3(bonus) the grenadier vs nod flametrooper is to dam powerfull for a free infantry.never used the grenade launcher at all in the original renegade but i am in renegade x just dam. ya deal so much damage to a vehicle per shot same with infantry ya dont have to be accurate and ya can easily 3 shot any infantry with just the splash damage. ya can also easily kill vehicles with it. compare that to flametrooper ya deal like no damage to tanks or just 1 damage per shot.to infantry ya need heashot to be able to kill standart infantry in 1 magazine.

2.flame tank remember these being more viable also in the other renegade just a bigger cone would solve the issue a bit.right now  ya can pretty much walk easily outside of there 100% accurate flames. again this wasent the case for them they shared the same effect of the flametrooper the further away the less accurate aim ya needed untill ya got to max range of the tank.

2.1with stealth stanks found it kinda odd they have problems also remember them being able to kill every vehicle  in the original renegade they could also 1 on 1 mammoth tanks if the mammoth tank never used there missile's+the stealth tank got its first hit in.the stealth tank would be on a close to no hp then afther.against other vehicles wouldent matther they could win easily if no engineer would repair the vehicle.

3. the mines hurt both sides a good yeah not sure if nod is more on the hurt side with them mostly being focused on short range units. rather see this reworked a bit more like revert the mine limit but also just add weaker mines they could dish out the old c&c renegade damage with a much higher limit like these mines deal 50-60 damage per mine what the originals did have a player limit of 10 are named minor proximity c4's+ they would also all trigger at the same time if placed to close then what the newer ones do explode 1 by 1 untill the person is death.

 

[Handepsilon]

3 hours ago, slashes said:

1.1.the stealth black hand ones in the old renegade ya could give them sniper rifles of drops.that  needed ya to sacrefize a sniper character on ya team or get lucky on the battlefield for a weapon drop. maybe give nod an option to buy the black hands sniper rifle for sbh with a 1000 or so credit cost or the ramjet sniper making them viable sniper with the added restriction of them cloaking less fast if there using sniper rifles?

Let's not.

We have enough cries against snipers without them being stealthy

As for flames, I'm not sure about them needing 100% accuracy, but I personally like flame thrower more than grenadier because they kinda don't do much against infantries. Not in my hand at least.

[slashes]

7 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

Let's not.

We have enough cries against snipers without them being stealthy

As for flames, I'm not sure about them needing 100% accuracy, but I personally like flame thrower more than grenadier because they kinda don't do much against infantries. Not in my hand at least.

then why not reintroduce dropt weapons needing rng to get there weapons like a 5-10% for the character ya kill to drop there weapon they where holding at that time minus the hotwire/eng/tech they wont drop anything.or they could drop the repair tool/strong repair tool. thats only if they are killed by enemy's not just of suicide.

the grenadier part is kinda strange that they dont do much damage in ya hands ya could test out a bit with someone like ask on nod someone if they wanna test out the splash+damage of the grenade launcher there bound to be someone that will help ya with it

 

[Handepsilon]

Pretty sure weapon drop was not in the base game. It was a server mod I believe

Well in all honesty it's probably just my imagination and bad aim, but I really don't think I kill much more than I do with flame thrower. Speaking of whom, we just found out (or rather... some of us already did but didn't share until now) that the flames' are apparently a bit offsetted to the side a bit and so wasn't accurate looking

[slashes]

8 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

1.Pretty sure weapon drop was not in the base game. It was a server mod I believe

2.Well in all honesty it's probably just my imagination and bad aim, but I really don't think I kill much more than I do with flame thrower. Speaking of whom, we just found out (or rather... some of us already did but didn't share until now) that the flames' are apparently a bit offsetted to the side a bit and so wasn't accurate looking

1.played c&c renegade at the start of it skirmish always had the weapons drops of unless ya went in the files and changed the weapon from no to yes. in the online matches the one hosting was able to pick what options to enable or disable. weapon drop was part of it. then the campaign ya had weapon drops also set to on with the same random drop rate of like 10-25% to drop there weapon on death.still remember first encountering the chem warriors in there 2 headshots got me both of there chem rifle. then other time i played it in that section got nothing of them.

2. the flametrooper in general is a very hard to play character to pick due to small cone now if the target stands still ya can melt him in like 40 shots. compare that to the other class for this the grenadier stand still and ya death within 2 shots.the grenadier is mostly always the victor even while fighting multiple flamethrowers is due to the splash damage.now if the flamethrowers shared there c&c renegade counterparts that would have been subject to change the flamers in there are more forgiven with bad aim due to the larger flamer cone in there instead of the pin point accuracy one in renegade x.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by slashes