Please consider NvN on seperate servers only or remove at this point

[Ryz]

Hi,

My title is a bit short and to the point because I didnt have more space

This might not be a very popular opinion especially since I know a lot of effort has been put in Nod vs Nod... Still I am posting it here cause I think a lot of people agree with me based on what I've seen in game.

What did I notice?

On NvN

- First of all people don't know what BH is (ok they can learn, but they don't expect another game mode)
- A LOT of people usually leave. 
- There is very often a map change request. More often then regular gameplay mode
- It is not popular with a lot of people based on teamchat

While I realize it has to grow I also see it confuses new players even more.  GDI vs Nod is hard for new ppl, but Nod vs Nod EVERYBODY seams to be repairing their own vehicles for example while nobody even looks (or calls out) for beacons, is doing stealthcheck, watching for mines, and so on. Basically what is allready hard to expect in public normal Nod vs GDI games becomes even less to be expected in NvN

More important is how this feels (to me and quite some players). NvN is lacking a certain pace in the game... With Nod vs GDI you have your own abilities with each faction, stuff which counters enemy vehicles / units. With Nod vs Nod you basically have the same stuff against the same stuff. Combine this with A LOT of (semi afk) SBHS on both sides (not doing too much) and (so far I tried) close to zero repairs vs the fact that basically all Nod vehicles are paper and you have a very hard time to have the game move forward. NvN seams to drag on without a feeling of much sense. it is all very random to me.

I can see how NvN could work in PUGS (I like that)
I can see how it can work in a seperate server (people know what to join)

IF it stays in official servers I strongly suggest a few things:

- Remove / disable SBHS
- Give each faction some other vehicles.

Curious how others receive this topic. Like I said I appreciate the work which is put into this, I don't want to insult anyone, but I REALLY feel this needs more polishing before it can be on public servers and benefit the RenX community.

Also: a lot of people cannot stand changes / new stuff. I am not one of those. I am open to new game modes but I feel this compares in no way to the uniqueness of the regular game. Some changes might improve that (a lot).

 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Ryz

[Xeon Wraith]

From my perspective, a lot of the draw of NvN games is the symmetry. No faction biases, only the stronger team wins.

Trying to add in a couple team specific units into NvN just gives a half-assed asymmetrical game mode. It's neither as interesting as proper GDI vs Nod asymmetry and it isn't as competitive as the current Nod vs Nod mode. I'd avoid trying to change that aspect.

That said, I can totally see why players don't enjoy the game mode. It'll probably help a lot if the map change selection was clearer about which maps are GvN or NvN. Just adding a "X" at the end of map's name isn't sufficient. Like "Walls X". Really?

[NodSaibot]

All Nod v Nod maps have "BH" at the end of the name when they are on the voting screen. It can be adjusted if it isn't intuitive or understood.

[Snow.]

First of all, I didnt played many pub games in NvN mode. But some of the criticisms sound understandable to me.

I like playing NvN on PUGs, but there is difference between playing on PUGs or on PUBs, on PUGs there are more experienced people who know what they do.

On PUBs we have currently a lot of newcomers, which is basically good, but its much more harder and needs more teamwork to win on NvN mode. I like it, but atm I dont have many experiences how much the deviations are and possible solutions for them...

I have a request, one thing I personally really dont like, after a NvN again a NvN map, please remove after a NvN map a another NvN map from vote selection.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Snow

[isupreme]

I agree that BH games should not be included.    ( But i think it Awesome the community has developed this concept!   07  )

at least at this moment......

1. same vs same is very lame.

2. I find these games do not highlight the essential awesomeness of Renegade X.       To me it feels so much  like all the other games out there....  same vs same. But one of the core strengths of Renegade is the two factions are very different, ~ but still game play is balanced.    The current game owes SO very much to this legacy.

3. I just do not enjoy them, myself.    Maybe if SBH were removed it would appeal to me more.. idk.

Let it be a server choice but not the official.   

PS   it is really obscure to look for that little symbol to see if the game is  BH or not..   where do we explain that to new players or me?

Edited August 2, 2020 by isupreme

[Mystic~]

I don't enjoy Nod versus Nod games, not even in PUGs, it's very flat, symmetrical and boring to play against the same faction. I suspect it would feel identical playing GDI versus GDI if this were to also be included, it's painstakingly slow having a med versus med or a mammoth versus mammoth tank battles. I would support this moving to a different server, but I suspect this might mean it isn't played much unless there's a huge player base growth, but that doesn't guarantee its popularity.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Mystic~

[Syntharn]

Ive ranted in discord about how much easier it is to sneak these days. 
One of the reasons being that the newest players cant always tell the difference between Nod and GDI infantry models, or even realizing that a medium tank can be occupied by a Nod player etc, i'm NOT joking. Don't act aggressive and you can walk in a straight line past them sometimes.
They dont know the usual strategies for the maps yet, where to look for certain dangers or how to properly prevent them,
like proper mining or scanning for sbhs/stanks.

This problem escalates when the only difference is some color changes on a mostly black uniform, like a technician (especially on dark maps).

Other than that i think whatever problems new players may have is arguably equally present in the normal Nod vs GDI mode.
Do new players really repair vehicles more because the other team can't buy sbhs? i doubt it, its still a newb trap even if they are exclusive to one team.

Tbh, im not sure all the veteran players have a clear idea of how to play NvN yet either, I personally don't know of all the best sneak routes for the new BH base layouts yet.

would be great if we can get some feedback from actual new players regarding this.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Syntharn
i cant spell

[roweboat]

I feel very much the same way. At first I was very much interested in the IDEA of nod v nod, however, I think in practice it just becomes too confusing.

 

A nuke beacon goes off and its hard to discern immediately, is it friendly or enemy? Many of the similar voice clips also add to this confusion.

 

Also I think the inclusion of bikes and m2s adds too much chaos. The bikes are too fast, the learning curve for learning to drive them is very high. And m2s are too powerful, they lead to frequent stalemate matches.

 

Also, I think maps need to be built from the ground up for nod v nod. Using existing maps for testing is great, but for example, Lakeside BH, the obelisk is a ridiculously hard target to take down and not always in a fun way.

 

Again too I know alot of hard work was put it and it shows, for what it is, it looks great. But I'm not sure if its quite ready for prime time yet still.

[AshbyJones]

I want to like Nod vs Nod but I hate it...I don't know why but its terrible.  IT SHOULDN'T BE but...  No Idea how to solve so I'll just complain.

[Nyxblow]

An easy fix would be to only include BH maps in the rotation after every 3 or 4 matches.

[Quinc3y]

I have similar feelings. The gameplay in NvN is definately more stale - although I am not 100% sure why.

I think it can be a good novelty to play NvN every now and then (say, once a week or a month), especially in a competitive environment like PUG. But playing it every 3 or so maps on a public server is far too much. Like people said here, there are too many players just fooling around with recon bikes / SBHs and too many newbies not knowing what to do and who to shoot at. Plus, reading teamchat in blue Nod is really hard, which for me is a big issue as it hampers teamwork on public servers.

[roweboat]

4 hours ago, Quinc3y said:

I have similar feelings. The gameplay in NvN is definately more stale - although I am not 100% sure why.

I think it can be a good novelty to play NvN every now and then (say, once a week or a month), especially in a competitive environment like PUG. But playing it every 3 or so maps on a public server is far too much. Like people said here, there are too many players just fooling around with recon bikes / SBHs and too many newbies not knowing what to do and who to shoot at. Plus, reading teamchat in blue Nod is really hard, which for me is a big issue as it hampers teamwork on public servers.

seeing BH units on mini map is very difficult as well

[isupreme]

I am going to post again because:

Today, when the game ended and we were given maps to select.....   We had 5 choices.

The player base was around 40, and the games had been kinda stomp oriented.   We needed a map with defenses that works for smaller teams.

But we got :   5 choices - 2 Nod vs Nod maps no one wanted to play  ( based on voting)  = 3 maps.  And they all were BIG team maps.  OW

I really love that this community celebrates and supports variety.    That is so beautiful.   But...................  I feel it is limiting our ability to choose CORE RenX.

>standard disclaimer.     Just another opinion in an Ocean of Player Fandom...      

>enjoys the recent waves of new players.....  

>plans to swim often.

Edited August 4, 2020 by isupreme
fun

[Badass Cookie]

Well symmetrical gameplay is wierd thing and i cant tell is it good or bad. 

"noises of tons sbh bumping in each other"

Problem is really little difference of infantry models - most times u cant find out is it friend or foe till he get in range of your gun (yeah i know we can take c4 in arm and get greater "detection" range, but much players - not). When u hear laser gun noises u cant quickly react on it cause u dont know is it teammate sbh shooting or enemy.

At least there no fat mammies 

 Also take a look on m2 bradley, actually on its price: 1250$ ARE U SERIOUS? It is quite better than Ltank but not twice better.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Badass Cookie

[Riou Insuiko]

Nod vs Nod can be decent fun once in a while. For me personally I find myself wishing that we were playing GDI vs Nod ~90% of the time when a Nod vs Nod map is voted in. Often times I end up dropping from the match when it gets voted in. Part of what I like about Renegade X in general is that the different teams have different strategies. 

In some ways I think Nod vs Nod needs to be quite different from the traditional format of the games to be more engaging. I think map changes can contribute heavily to this. It would be interesting if on Nod vs Nod Walls you could have the side ramps on either wall be replaced by powered gates, like the ones seen on Storm for the harvester. Having those gates no longer be functional and drop down (allowing 2 more potential openings for tanks or infantry to enter the base) if your team's power plant was destroyed would make protecting the PP much more important on that map and also allow for faster games or alternate strategies when rushing with stealth tanks for example.  Things like potentially disallowing proximity mines to be placed or particular units to be disallowed during the match might also add some change of strategy. No stealth black hand for example. Or maybe we have a map without access to artillery or snipers. Maybe even maps where flame tanks are just as powerful as normal but cost half as much as usual. It would lead to a more interesting dynamic on the battlefield.

One obvious problem with changes like infantry choices being limited on particular maps is that it creates an inconsistency that is hard to understand. Especially for new players who might not fully grasp each unit's potential or why they might be removed. Why certain maps have certain features added or removed, etc. So I think changes would ideally be universal across the mode but I can't help but feel that individual/unique map changes would also spice things up quite a bit.

Above all else the mode just seems like a novelty to try once in a while. I think the work that was put into the mode is worthwhile. I'd just like to see some changes to make it a bit more interesting.

 

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

I have no interest in mirror matches but the developers do so I'd say leave it in, and if enough players vote for those maps during rotation then it's only fair they get to play them. Plus those maps are an excuse to use the MIGHTY RECON BIKE OF YONDER, except the whole point of using the Recon Bike is to fight GDI.....

To the devs: We're looking for asymmetrical gameplay.

Edited August 8, 2020 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

10 hours ago, Bong Fury said:

black hand becomes more unique (no stealth, fire based and tiberium based stuff with focus on inf and defensive vehicles for example), it may be much more attractive

That's a neat idea; further distinguish the blue balled and black handed into an actual Nod subfaction that plays differently from the normal Red nod.

But then we're back to asymmetrical game-play between factions, and while playing as Nod, I'd rather wipe out GDI scum than have to kill my fellow brothers.

[isupreme]

Would it help if we said   Pretty Please?