Balance suggestions

[Sn4ke]

Hi,

recent patch brought Elite self-regen and this made certain units even more OP than they were before. Here are a few suggestions which could help to rebalance the teams (fractions) again [self-regen is just a hook, not all the balance-suggestions have to do with that ]. Feel free to comment / post own suggestions.

Mammoth:

• nerf overall dmg and reduce max. range (esp. on Heroic)
• or
• reduce mammoth tank HP
• or
• make mammoth tank slower
• or
• less shots per minute

[Mammoth tanks are beasts... esp. since the Vet System was introduced. And now a decent Elite Mammoth tanker is even less dependant on field repairs..]

If you dont want to nerf Mammoth tanks.... buff Flame Tanks manoeuvrability with each vet rank.

Arty / MRLS:

• reduce splash dmg radius

Light Tank:

• increase RoF
• or
• increase base dmg
• equal splash dmg radius with medium tank (at least: increase the damn radius for LTs)

LCG / SBH:

• remove unlimited ammunition for both units
• or
• reduce LCG armor

[Note: the argument that LCG/SBH shoot lasers... is no argument for unlimited ammunition at all. It's not about "logic", but about "balance" here... @yosh56 A unit which gets self-regen at Elite and never has to run back to base to refill ammunitions? With Heroic it was never such a problem, as most players never get Heroic (or only at the very very end of a match).]

Gunner:

• equal LCG / Gunner armor values

Patch:

• remove Elite-Hit-Scan (or Heroic only)

Soldier:

• reduce HS multi

Grenadier:

• reduce kevlar/non-armor multi
• either reduce armor value
• or [see below]

Flame Trooper:

• equal armor values with GDI Grenadier

Grenades:

• increase recharge timer (at least make a CAP. heroics can throw emp every 30 seconds....)

Repair-Tool:

• remove unlimited recharges, give them ~2-3 clips instead; with a longer reload time?

DMG-vs-MCT:

To buff teamplay I'd like to see a nerf to early solo sneaking, but if e.g. c4 gets nerfed, any weapon dmg vs. MCT needs a nerf (otherwise Doza, PIC/Raver sneak would become too OP). Rather difficult topic... But it would be interesting to see what would happen if Hotties can only Solo kill a building on Elite...

Regards,

Sn4ke

[Redarmy]

On Mammoths:

As I said yesterday "I want heroic flame tanks moving like a light tank."

 

Arty/MRLS:

I think they're fine for the most part. MRLS are actually somewhat useful because of their splash.

 

Light Tank:

Some kind of buff needs to happen. Higher RoF increase with vet would be interesting. Maybe shorten their range a bit more too, that way they could have a role of taking/securing field and rushing, but due to shorter range they can't really siege at all. Could effectively be an alternative to flame tanks in maps where flamers don't work as well.

 

LCG/SBH:

Pls no nerf. If anything there needs to be even more LCG laser light shows in RenX.

 

Gunner:

I think Gunner is fine for the most part. The Carbine helps them stay effective vs infantry, and unlike LCGs they're pretty good vs buildings. Plus, they're 50 credits less than an LCG. If you want a Gunner buff, if anything maybe increase the Carbine's clip size and remove Carbine from 1k snipers.

 

Patch:

Removing hitscan on elite sounds fine. Patches seem to be dominant at the moment.

 

Soldier:

No, just bring back flametrooper/chem HS multipliers!

 

Repair Tool:

The idea of repair tools getting 3 clips sounds good. Though if we're limiting ammo I feel the reload time should be slightly shorter than how long they take to fully recharge.

 

Dmg vs MCTs:

It is kind of absurd how easily a solo grenadier can get a building kill at the start of the game. If no one sees you go in, and if you make sure to hit a different building first, chances are you will get whatever building you're in. I feel like this mostly just affects grenadiers though. If there's going to be any MCT damage nerf it should just be for them, or nerf Timed C4 damage to MCTs, but buff remote's damage equally, so (adv) engis still do the same amount of damage.
 

On regen affects, another idea is self-regen temporarily is disabled when you get hit and goes on a cooldown until it comes back. Or, and I actually think this one is cooler, just burning effects disable self-regen for like 5 seconds. So like, Flames, Lasers, McFarland, Patch, C4...

 

Lastly, Chems & McFarlands are pretty useless these days. McFarlands are a bit more useful than chems, but chems are really never ever bought. I know at 150 they were too strong, but starting credits are 0 now for CT servers at least, so maybe they can go back to being 150? Or at least try them at 200? Or do the opposite, buff them and raise price to like 300. Raise McFarland's alt fire damage to MCTs, and give them both EMP grenades to be the cheapest infiltrators that can kill buildings.

Alternatively, and this can also tie into @DarkSn4ke's idea of messing with EMPs, add EMPs as purchasable via items. Switch them from rechargable to stock of 2 with shorter cooldown. Both giving Chems/McFarlands EMPs or just allowing EMPs to be purchasable can help soften the blow a bit if a team loses their hon/bar. Though purchasable EMPs might be too OP cause then field reps might just go in with those, especially on a map like Islands when tanks can get into fairly short range combat.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Redarmy
Adding more stuff

[Guest Gliven]

GIVE ROCKET SOLIDERS EMP. I will keep asking untill yosh gives in. Trying to kill a mammoth tank especially when it has ranked up is impossible when you have no hon.

[Guest Gliven]

I also think mammoth tanks should not be able to hit the hon on walls.

1 mammoth tank can melt a group of arties/stanks
Reduce their range or slow down the turret turning speed. 1 mammy should not be able to kill 2 or more stanks swarming it.
1500 creds vs 1800-2700 is not cost effective

[KrypTheBear]

I'll be quite honest with you, 1 HP/s isn't a lot... especially in a mammoth. If you consider the sheer bulk of health, the delay with the regen and the fact that 3 LCGs can make your life a nightmare, it just makes it seem fair.

With the new EMP-Grenades, tanking is quite difficult. Before that you could just sit around and relax and be repaired, but now you need to jump like an elephant that sees a mouse, whenever someone decides to toss a grenade at your tank.

Solo sneaking is perfectly fine as it is in my opinion. It's a valid way how to get a game to progress forward. Loss of buildings is a part of the game. And if your team fails to pay attention, welp... Besides, if you let units sneak into your base, at any point of the game, good job to the sneaker. It only happens like every 4-5 matches that someone manages to sneak into a building early on without being spotted, and then even rarer manages to deal significant damage to a building. Of course, later in the game a single Adv. Engineer can just fuck up a building, yes. But they're very defenseless in regards of effective HP and weaponry.

Flame troopers fuck up grenadiers. Period. It's so much easier to kill things with a flamer compared to grenades. Buidlings they should be around on par.

Frankly, the units seem quite balanced right now. I don't have any real complaints myself.

[KrypTheBear]

3 minutes ago, Gliven said:

I also think mammoth tanks should not be able to hit the hon on walls.

1 mammoth tank can melt a group of arties/stanks
Reduce their range or slow down the turret turning speed. 1 mammy should not be able to kill 2 or more stanks swarming it.
1500 creds vs 1800-2700 is not cost effective

Meh. I disagree with this. It's not cost effective, yes, but Nod's best hand isn't really in vehicles, but rather in infantry. GDI highly relies on armor, you can't do a whole lot with GDI's infantry, while Nod's vehicles are around stealthy, low armored, surprise attacks. But their infantry just makes up for that. Like my example earlier, 3 LCGs are more than enough to melt a mammoth tank. And 1350 vs 1500 credits doesn't seem that cost effective either, does it? It's a lower difference, true, but you get the point. And besides, have you seen the carnage you can do with 2-3 SBHs? Walls just suddenly has no Orcas anymore.

[Henk]

Making EMP grenades purchasable is what we're moving away from with each class having it's own loadout. And giving EMP grenades to Rocket Soldiers and Chem/McFarland would isn't a good idea either, seeing how much mines an EMP grenade can disarm at once.

Do agree on the mammoth being OP on Elite/Heroic at the moment, but the VP you can get from them once you do kill them is good I guess, I see way too little people swarming mammoth tanks & their repairers from behind with flametroopers. Do this, doesn't cost a thing, gives them hardly any VP if they kill you but you get a lot.

^ I'm also having a hard time hitting LCG's good when driving a mammoth tank.

Flame tank could use some more speed/mobility I agree. Maybe an increased speed when not firing.

[Guest Gliven]

With a mammoth tank, you have to ambush it to kill it, or focus fire with 3 or more people with plenty of repair. That gives gdi at least a 2 man advantage somewhere else in the mean time. 1 hotwire and 1 mammoth tank can kill 3 arties and 1 tech. 2-3 lcg's need to be in a good position to kill a mammy. good luck trying to get into a good position to kill the mammy with your slow speed and the mammy's range. So that leaves rave and mendoza, which is even more expensive. I used to hate mammoth tanks. too expensive, too slow and give the enemy too much vp when dead. Now i buy them all the time

Edited September 1, 2017 by Gliven

[Redarmy]

14 minutes ago, Henk said:

Chem/McFarland would isn't a good idea either, seeing how much mines an EMP grenade can disarm at once.

That's the exact reason why I was saying to give them EMPs.

21 minutes ago, KrypTheBear said:

I'll be quite honest with you, 1 HP/s isn't a lot... especially in a mammoth.

Actually it is a lot especially in a mammoth. 1HP/s isn't going to change too much for like a buggy with it's really low health since it instantly dies. In a mammoth that takes awhile to kill already, the 1HP/s effectively does a lot more since it has a longer TTK.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Redarmy

[Guest Gliven]

I dont think chems or mcfarland should have emp grenades. Only rocket soldier. We need something to counter flame tanks, meds and mammoth tanks when we lose the hon/bar. (even with this it will still be hard)

15 minutes ago, Henk said:

Making EMP grenades purchasable is what we're moving away from with each class having it's own loadout. And giving EMP grenades to Rocket Soldiers and Chem/McFarland would isn't a good idea either, seeing how much mines an EMP grenade can disarm at once.

 The only downside i see with rocket soldiers having emp grenades, is a cheaper version of an apc/chinhook rush. How many matches do you see where people pile into a chinhook with gunners/lcgs? (other than when yosh and boxes pub stomp together)

[Guest Gliven]

Mammoth tanks can deal with 1 or two lcg's when they arent up above them, like on walls.

[Madkill40]

C4s, armour and health are the only things which should require anyone to return to base for a refill.

All infantry should get unlimited ammo for primary weapons and sidearms coz RTS rules.

[boxes]

Mammoth at heroic should have the standard +150 hp instead of +250, and the default static regen should be cut in half, also the sprint speed on veterancy should be toned down, even none is ok

MRLS splash should go back to its original value

Light tank faster RoF and/or faster tank shells, same splash as medium tanks

Patch hitscan should be gone entirely

Grenadier should have less MCT damage as well

[roweboat]

What if you make it more dynamic?

For example. by default. Rocket soldiers don't have EMP, but if Barracks / HON is lost, then rocket soldiers are given EMP.

[Axesor]

The only thing that I can agree with is Light tank and Flame tank speed buff. Buffing one or two Nod vehicles should change the ballance pretty noticeable, and this way mammy shouldnt be that notorious as before while countering these. At this point, nerfing artys AoE would break the balance even more... you cant use logic of nerfing both mammy and arty at the same time since ballance is very experimental work...

...and so I would welcome more frequent small balance changes from devs side, few units at the time. Changing a few values shouldnt be that difficult.

Nerfing free infantry seems not reasonable at all, considering that free infantry is only good for pointless shootouts with no progress vision, while waiting for more creds + suicide runs that does not seem right at all. Its not balance suggestion, more like gameplay suggestion... I want free infantry be as usefull as todays purchaseable infantry, but I want purchase infantry to do that job better. If not becouse of gameplay, so at least from principle, becouse infantry acts like some kind of heroes but playing them feels so weak and vulnerable. Look at CoD, you are vulnerable as sh*t, but you feel like a hero.

Also infantry of any kind should get infinite ammo (and rechargeable c4, at best but not necessary) for RTS sake.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Axesor

[sterps]

I don't agree with nerfing the mammoth. It's only been brought up to par in the last few patches to be made useful. 

It's weakness is easily exploited and is exposed enough as it is. It's not hard to run up to it and strap c4 to it, nor is it hard to flank it with respect to it's speed and Nod's speed and stealth abilities.

Going by the logic that 2 stealth tanks should beat it because it cost more doesn't always work. Remember a good portion of the cost of a stank is because you're paying for a stealth vehicle and can move to locations without incurring enemy fire ( unless discovered)

Does that also mean, 1 mammy should beat 3 arties for the same reason? Because it doesn't right now.

 

The mammoth doesn't feel like it did back in beta 1, and that's when it was OP, nor do I see it excessively used like when something is OP.

I thought the game was close to balance, so why are there so many balance suggestions?

 

Going by some of the posts above, it seems like players rather have issues with the veteran system, and forget that the veteran system is designed to give the team working harder the edge to defeat the other team, as to avoid stalemates like before it was implemented.

[Sn4ke]

59 minutes ago, sterps said:

It's weakness is easily exploited and is exposed enough as it is. It's not hard to run up to it and strap c4 to it, nor is it hard to flank it with respect to it's speed and Nod's speed and stealth abilities.

to take down a mammoth tank you need teamplay.... while the mammoth tanker can solo beat a couple of Nod tanks. add 1-2 field repairs to the Mammoth and he takes much more.

in the end.... everything depends on the individual skill. but a heavy tank that can almost insta-kill stank / arty (guns-rocket-guns). thats why I consider the mammoth too powerfull (OP)

[sterps]

6 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

to take down a mammoth tank you need teamplay.... while the mammoth tanker can solo beat a couple of Nod tanks. add 1-2 field repairs to the Mammoth and he takes much more.

in the end.... everything depends on the individual skill. but a heavy tank that can almost insta-kill stank / arty (guns-rocket-guns). thats why I consider the mammoth too powerfull (OP)

Teamwork is a good thing, considering that's a core mechanic of the game, i don't really think that's a problem.

The Mammoth tank is supposed to be the most powerful unit in the game, period. And so, you would expect it can take out multiple (two or three) vehicles before succumbing to enemy fire, and for the amount you pay for it, you'd expect it to be.

Player skill apart, you cannot expect to go one on one with a mammoth and come out on top, it shouldn't work that way (unless you're a flame tank licking the mammy).

As a stank, you don't engage directly do you? You'd flank one if you attack it. 

And as an Arty, you wouldn't use it as a main battle tank would you? It's a support unit, you're best to try and out range it. 

 

In response to your suggestions:

 

• nerf overall dmg and reduce max. range (esp. on Heroic)

Again, it us supposed to be the most powerful unit in the game.

That being said, it's missiles aren't really that strong, and can be dodged easily by nimble units on sloped terrain. 

The cannon should be powerful to compensate for it's sluggishness and poor maneuverability.
Enemies (unless in number) should be weary when trying to engage one. Making it weaker would negate this completely.

As for it's range, it's only slightly longer than the medium and light tank, if even that, it could be equal to them both.

• reduce mammoth tank HP

This coupled with it's already low speed means it will die faster. Being slow and more fragile = a useless paperweight, you'd be dead before you can even get halfway across the map. 

If you're wanting to nerf it's health, then it's speed would need to be increased accordingly. Less armour = less mass = more speed and maneuverability

• make mammoth tank slower

It's slow enough as it is, and can easily be sniped by an out of range arty, not to mention enemy infantry can very easily run up to it and throw timed c4 on it.

 

• less shots per minute

This is essentially just damage output again, see first point on damage.

 

In relation to having repairs behind a mammy, then it should be harder to destroy, just like it is with any other unit.

Remember, this is a team game and it's hard enough to get someone to follow behind for repairs as it is.

 

[Redarmy]

14 minutes ago, sterps said:

not to mention enemy infantry can very easily run up to it and throw timed c4 on it.

Not really. Infantry really need to be able to ambush it for that to happen, and even then a single timed c4 isn't going to do anything to a mammoth. Where mammoths were at before was fine. It was slightly underpowered, but having one in the field was still fairly standard and typically a good thing. You talk about arties being a supportive vehicle, that's what mammoths should be as well. Mammoths shouldn't be the majority of GDI tanks in the field. Now in a map like Walls, if GDI gets two out it's basically GG for Nod on the public servers. Any arty will instantly die. Flame tanks can't get remotely close enough. Light tanks do no damage. Vehicle paths aren't big enough for stanks to be able to swarm or ambush. The tusk missiles are still good vs Apaches. If GDI has a decent sniper LCGs are useless since they move so slowly. Nod realistically can't do anything against 2-3 mammoths in some maps. Call in an airstrike, and the elite/heroic mammoth will sit there and eat the airstrike not giving a damn about it.

[Sn4ke]

1 hour ago, sterps said:

It's a support unit, you're best to try and out range it. 

depends on map design. you can beat arty range on most maps with a mammoth (cuz of arty positioning due to landscape)

and.... Artilleries are the backbone of Nods vehicle forces.....

Edited September 2, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[SvN91]

At some point light tanks were able to attack mammoths by driving really close to them and the mammoth was unable to shoot at such a close range. That was nice.

 

I don't think the mammoth needs to be nerfed but the nod vehicles should be a bit stronger or maybe faster. I don't know if the game engine allows it but it would be great if the mammoth would have weaker armour on the rear side, making flanking and ambushes more relevant.

[Madkill40]

I've solo'd a mammoth tank with a stealth tank loads of times and won, I think Field, Lakeside and XMountain are the best for this due to the dips and space.

Flame tank getting a speed boost would be nice but leave its maneuverability alone.

[j0g32]

Just a random thought, following up on this 

13 hours ago, sterps said:

I thought the game was close to balance, so why are there so many balance suggestions?

The fact that people are suggesting all kinds of different balance tweaks, is somewhat a prove of its overall balance:

Since now it's just down to different preferences over weapons, vehicles, and playstyles of individual players, and anecdotal evidence, there is no consensus on what is "unbalanced". Speaking in terms of welfare economics / political economy, there are little/no efficiency gains through balance tweaking; i.e. increasing the fun for everyone (on average), without making too many worse off.

In fact, I conclude that therefore on average the game seems to be fairly balanced... 

 

Though, I haven't played myself in a long time...

[sterps]

4 hours ago, Redarmy said:

Not really. Infantry really need to be able to ambush it for that to happen, and even then a single timed c4 isn't going to do anything to a mammoth. Where mammoths were at before was fine. It was slightly underpowered, but having one in the field was still fairly standard and typically a good thing. You talk about arties being a supportive vehicle, that's what mammoths should be as well. Mammoths shouldn't be the majority of GDI tanks in the field. Now in a map like Walls, if GDI gets two out it's basically GG for Nod on the public servers. Any arty will instantly die. Flame tanks can't get remotely close enough. Light tanks do no damage. Vehicle paths aren't big enough for stanks to be able to swarm or ambush. The tusk missiles are still good vs Apaches. If GDI has a decent sniper LCGs are useless since they move so slowly. Nod realistically can't do anything against 2-3 mammoths in some maps. Call in an airstrike, and the elite/heroic mammoth will sit there and eat the airstrike not giving a damn about it.

But that's just it, infantry can run up right next to it, often without the driver even knowing... it really is that easy to do. 
1 timed C4 = 33.33% of it's health, it may not kill it in on shot, but it's still significant damage.

You say where they were before.... exactly when are you referring to?
The last time Mammoth's were buffed in a patch, was back in March 2016. They haven't changed recently, yet you say that 'now, it's basically gg on walls'. Nothing has changed...

Medium's are used more than Mammoths in 99% of games, and they can play the role of 'Heavy Support', they still require repairs and/or faster vehicles to prevent them from being overwhelmed... The artillery on the other hand is a different kind of support... long range support.

Anything that is heroic is going to take an airstrike on the chin... not just a mammoth.

 

 

3 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

depends on map design. you can beat arty range on most maps with a mammoth (cuz of arty positioning due to landscape)

and.... Artilleries are the backbone of Nods vehicle forces.....

Unit balance should not be a result of map design. A map's design can make any unit more favourable than another...

Based on this logic, i should say arties are OP because on Canyon GDI is defeated 9 times out of 10 because arties spam the bar and GDI entrance.

 

[boxes]

5 hours ago, j0g32 said:

Just a random thought, following up on this 

The fact that people are suggesting all kinds of different balance tweaks, is somewhat a prove of its overall balance:

Since now it's just down to different preferences over weapons, vehicles, and playstyles of individual players, and anecdotal evidence, there is no consensus on what is "unbalanced". Speaking in terms of welfare economics / political economy, there are little/no efficiency gains through balance tweaking; i.e. increasing the fun for everyone (on average), without making too many worse off.

In fact, I conclude that therefore on average the game seems to be fairly balanced... 

 

Though, I haven't played myself in a long time...

In general good balance in renx is where everything in the game has its use while not being overshadowed too much by something else, biggest example is the light tank not having a useful spot between artys and flamers/stanks

[svett89]

This post grew out of control, so I'll split it into sections.

I should also say upfront that I think the game balance is currently pretty damn good! Nearly all of my serious suggestions are small changes to damage/health/mechanics. I don't think anything is currently so under/over-powered that it needs drastic changes (with one exception regarding Sydney/Raveshaw).

Vehicles and sieges

I personally feel that Nod lags behind GDI when it comes to games with lower levels of team organisation, i.e. random games (which, let's be honest, is what most of us spend the majority of our game time playing). GDI's only real unique rush (so not counting Mobius/Doza, Sydney/Raveshaw, etc.) that requires any higher level of organisation is the Gunner rush, which is typically only used as a last resort due to GDI vehicles being so good at taking field control. With that in mind, it's important to not buff Nod to make them too strong in PuGs or with more organized teams. Changes to lessen Nod's reliance on heavy team organisation need to be small in nature. With that said, even with little-to-no team communication, GDI naturally tends to park 3-4 Mammies + 3-4 Meds + 1-2 MRLS outside the Nod base, then farm VP until they're Elite/Heroic and then just steamroll. It's fine that GDI is better at taking field control, as Nod has better rushing options, but Nod needs to be given some better tools for breaking a siege, as well as being a bit more flexible when it comes to taking field control and besieging GDI. There's currently not really any realistic way for Nod to take out a full force of GDI heavy armour camping their base unless the team organises a very large LCG counter rush. Flame tanks are too soft and slow to be able to do enough damage on most maps, and Arties can only do so much with limited LoS and GDI vehicles dancing in and out of cover / getting repairs.

On the other hand, even if GDI fails to repel the early Nod arty party, and it's Nod that's besieging, GDI can much more easily break a Nod siege. Since Nod relies so heavily on Artillery (which they kind of have to, as Light Tanks don't stack up, and Stanks are too soft to effectively maintain a siege, as they should be), a small amount of Mammies/Meds can often quite easily break the Nod glass cannon siege on many maps even with little team coordination. Nod's only hope of maintaining a siege is on maps where they can make good use of Flame Tanks covering the GDI entrance, which is very boring for the FT driver. I personally feel that GDI vehicles are fine overall, but I'd love to see some changes for Nod to reduce their over-reliance on Artillery. Nod essentially needs a more versatile meat shield that can also dish out meaningful damage at range.

Light Tanks

As others have said, Light Tanks need some love. I'd like to se the Light Tank have a higher RoF, possibly with a small cost increase (700 instead of 600 or such). I'd like to see LT's lose against meds 1v1 because of lower HP, but still being able to dish out good damage to counter Mammies and Meds, and act as a meaningful damage-contributing meat shield for arties. I'd even be fine if the Light Tank out-dpsed the Med slightly, so that a small group of them could actually put some fear into a Mammy driver's heart. Light Tanks being a meaningful siege vehicles would also allow Nod to more easily farm VP the same way GDI can with Meds and Mammies.

Artillery

Nerf their damage against heavy armour by a small amount. Nod shouldn't almost exclusively rely on them to counter GDI tanks, and with Light Tanks bringing more meaningful damage, arties could be brought back a tiny bit to compensate. They should of course still be higher dps against vehicles than Light Tanks, but I think the gap should be made slightly smaller.

Flame Tanks

I think a buff to the Light Tank would automatically put the Flame Tank in a more comfortable position, so I feel that it can remain untouched. If Nod could counter a GDI siege with a combo of Flame Tanks up front, Light Tanks in behind, then I don't think the Flamer needs to be buffed. It's already very deadly if it reaches its target, and if it can be effectively supported by Light Tanks, I don't think it needs to change. If anything, I could see a small reduction in damage vs heavy armour, but with a speed increase to compensate. This could mean that Nod doesn't have to put a Flame Tank or two outside the GDI base that does nothing most of the time just to maintain a siege, but it's still a very effective rushing vehicle.

Stealth Tanks

They're fine as-is. I wouldn't mind seeing a tiny increase to their HP, at a tiny cost of attack power vs vehicles, but I don't want them to lose their glass cannon status.

All other vehicles are fine as-is!

Infantry

Sydney/Raveshaw

I know this will probably get mixed responses, but I think these two classes should get no headshot multiplier, and not be able to one-shot ANY infantry. Having a class that is essentially on par, arguably better, than a sniper at close-to-medium range against infantry, while also being anti-vehicle, is simply too strong. Currently, in capable hands, a Sydney/Raveshaw is a death-dealing machine against infantry, while still being strong against armour. I personally feel that these classes should be more exclusively oriented towards their intended role, which the game itself states is anti-vehicle. I would like to see a slight increase in heavy armour damage, in combination with doing at most 75 % damage to infantry in one shot, meaning that one has to either whip out the pistol or land 2-3 shots to kill infantry. Mobius/Mendoza should be the preferred anti-infantry classes at close range, with Havoc/Sakura handling long-range and one-shots.

Patch

As others have mentioned, Patch feels a bit too strong against infantry at the moment. A slight nerf would be appreciated.

LCG

I'd like to see a small increase in long-range accuracy to be able to compete better with Patch at longer ranges. Depends on if/how Patch is changed though. Other than that, I think they're fine.

Crazier ideas

All of these ideas are pretty off-the-wall, so don't take them too seriously. These are mostly meant as points for discussion than serious game balance suggestions. :-)

APCs and Buggies/Humvees

I would personally like to see the APC being a bit more capable against heavy armour, just to give a team without WF/Strip at least some vehicle that can pose a small threat to enemy tanks, as well as having it serve some additional purpose other than rushing. Either a buff to the machine gun damage against heavy armour, or if you really wanna go crazy, give them an alternate fire mode along the lines of the IFVs from Battlefield 3 (something like the 6-shot HE cannon on the BTR-90 IFV). Obviously, the APC shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with any actual tank, but I'd like them to be a bit more versatile. If the APC would also be nerfed slightly against infantry, it could fill the role of a "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none", with the Humvee and Buggy being buffed in some way to make them the dedicated anti-infantry vehicles. Again, just a crazy idea.

Power Plants and Obelisk/AGT

I know this point has been brought up before, but I feel that PP's are too valuable on maps with advanced base defences compared to maps without. I know we don't want never-ending games on Under and Field, but I think Veterancy has largely solved that issue. I think it would be reasonable to make tank pushes much easier if PP goes down, but not allow infantry to swarm into the base unless the Ob/AGT itself is destroyed. Something along the lines of:

- Obelisk shoots a more puny beam that does very little damage to tanks, but is still deadly against infantry. This means that infantry can't just start sneaking like crazy if PP goes down, but a tank push is much easier.

- AGT no longer shoots missiles, but machine guns are still strong against infantry, meaning that a tank push is much easier, but SBH Nuke Party is not possible unless the AGT itself is destroyed.

Airstrip on Islands

Airstrip position in Nod base on Islands is messed up. If GDI acquires field control at any point, it's GG for Nod, as they struggle to even get vehicles out without GDI destroying them as they spawn. I've attached a very poorly-made MS Paint picture on how the base could be re-designed to give Nod a better shot at holding off a GDI siege without their vehicles getting sniped, while still allowing GDI to effectively siege all three buildings. It wouldn't be as aesthetically pleasing, but it could make the map a bit more balanced. Again, just a crazy idea, and I felt like doing a shitty MS paint drawing before going to bed anyway. :-)

Good night!

[Radeon3]

These are my observations and suggestions:

Mammoth tank:
Scales badly with the vet system. Just want to add an idea which could serve not just as a nerf but it would also make the Mammy unique(ly awesome). Remember C&C3? At heroic give the mammy dual railguns, but don’t increase its damage output from elite to heroic. Obviously, remove the splash damage so cheap-ass infantry could challenge it effectively… you know… just like in any other C&C. And remove the infinite range, it’s not the Juggernaut.

Light tank:
Swett89’s solution is the way to go.

Flame tank:
Needs speed gain as it gets higher ranks. Or here’s a ridicullios idea: give it an ability of using the flames as a propulsion system so it could get a temporal speed boost.

I believe the other vehicles are good as is.

Patch:
Sn4ke is right on this one, no need for hitscan. On top of that his noobtube is broken. I highly advise to look into its code before anybody else realize what’s wrong with it.

Sydney/Ravershaw:
Svett89 is spot on with this one as well. Don’t agree with him? Then add a charge up time after pulling the trigger. Don’t need much, just 250-400 ms. In technical terms elegantly put the idle time before shots instead of after them. Would fit the weapons characteristics nicely. Vehicles could be just as easily hit as before, but infantry would be fairly protected, yet still killable with some real skill. Seriously, why encountering a long range anti-tank unit at close range with infantry have to be extremely dangerous?

Grenadier:
A bit lower damage on MCT would be nice. Could be an effective SBH spotter by changing its alt fire to a not too fast burst fire. Poor guy is barely used after the early harvy rush, need some added usefulness.

The rest of the infantry seems okay.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Radeon3

[Madkill40]

Humvee & APC

Should have explosive rounds at Heroic. (Similar to Patch's weapon)

[vandal33]

Buff shotgun troopers so they can kill 1k characters as easy as it was in renegade so teams without barracks/hand of nod or low credits has a better chance to fight back in infantry battles. I feel they're kinda underpowered compared to soldiers and flamethrowers.

[Radeon3]

41 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

Humvee & APC

Should have explosive rounds at Heroic. (Similar to Patch's weapon)

Not a bad idea, although we already have a vehicle like that: Advanced Buggy.

[Madkill40]

On 12/09/2017 at 3:18 PM, Radeon3 said:

Not a bad idea, although we already have a vehicle like that: Advanced Buggy.

That's a Fort-only vehicle for one team/crate drop so I wouldn't count it.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Madkill40

[nanodeth]

for Rav/Syd nerf vs infantry and buff vs GDI tank camping.

and also...
- Mammoths should have their base stats stay as it is, but greatly reduce or remove their damage gain on veterancy but keep their RoF gain.
- Give Light Tanks a buff vs heavy armor by giving them higher RoF (same DPS as Med) to compensate for dealing against a Mammoth with Hotwire behind it.
- Give Flame Tanks a speed buff so that even Meds cannot outrun them, then same base speed as Light Tank on elite or heroic.

Edited November 2, 2017 by nanodeth

[Chrisjh0223]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 7:22 PM, svett89 said:

 AGT no longer shoots missiles, but machine guns are still strong against infantry, meaning that a tank push is much easier, but SBH Nuke Party is not possible unless the AGT itself is destroyed.

 

No, AGT has missile launcher as legacy weapon & it's needed against enemy vehicles (including air foes). If you're doing a custom map, consider absolute zero advanced base defenses and only use minor turrets (machine gun towers for GDI).

As for Sydney/Raveshaw, they cost $1000 each ($1500 on maps with Power Plant IF it's destroyed). They are the most expensive units, so it makes perfect sense you pay a PREMIUM for its overall functionality; unlike other anti-tank infantry units their weapon is SUPPOSED to be lethal Vs. infantry and SHOULD 1hko enemy soldiers if a headshot is landed. These troopers can't hit enemy infantry for squat with their weapon, so a headshot SHOULD reward them with an instant kill. If I have a railgun or PIC, and my lame accuracy results in a headshot to an enemy I EXPECT it to kill an enemy instantly. Besides, in Tiberian Sun RTS the Ghoststalker's Railgun 1hkos low tier infantry (I forget how many shots it takes to kill higher tier infantry); there, legacy C&C logic reinforced.

[fake news]

I honestly don't know why you're trying to balance Raveshaw and Sydney. They are in a pretty good place right now. The time between shots is long enough to be able to kill them or get them extremely low if you have half-decent aim. Most of the time, a Patch can easily kill a Raveshaw, or a Mendoza for a Sydney. 2 or 3 coordinated soldiers can also kill a Sydney or Raveshaw.

[nanodeth]

What doesn't make sense is Syd/Rav are labeled ANTI TANK but they dominate tunnels and easily outkill Mobi/Doza that also cost 1000 credits, much like Hav/Saku before their nerf.
Sure you can keep their 1-hit headshot against ONLY up to Tech/Hotty & T1 infantries, but not against T2 & T3 infantries.

[Madkill40]

People's issue with Rav/Syd is they can 1-hit-kill ALL infantry.

Keyword is the 'ALL', at most a Rav/Syd should only be able to 1-hit-kill up to a Patch and that's only by the excess burn damage after they've been hit. 

Anything above that with more health should be safe, flak units should also take less damage cos flak.