Hotwire/Technician Nerf

[boxes]

Yes, this again.

To put it simple, they still do way too much for a mere 350 credits.

As a utility class, they have so much versatility. The heavy pistol wrecks flak armor like no tomorrow. Remote C4s still completely nullify infantry rushes and still can be used as an effective weapon against kevlar armor. And of course massive burst damage to vehicles. Flaming C4 is also still a thing, plus remotes being the optimal choice for APC rushes. 

They are the ones responsible for mining and maintaining a base when defending. Again, no other class can do the same as hottie/tech when it comes to camping, other than perhaps SBH repair tool for catching hotwires without them knowing. Their disarm rate/repair rate is completely unmatched compared to engineers. Having 10 seconds to disarm a beacon compared to 20 seconds is a huge difference, as well as having 5 seconds to disarmed timed C4 compared to 10 seconds. Sacrificing your class to a hottie/tech for defensive purposes can decide the outcome of games, and don't even get me started on how awful the repair tool is outside of healing infantry. Hottie/Tech when repairing tanks or MCTs can nullify insane amounts of damage, and when properly protected they make these invincible walls of death that can only be stopped by dying to snipers or SBH. But who cares if you die, you're only 350 credits, you can pump them out nonstop. Just get another one create another wall of death in the field. 

Infiltration is by far the biggest reason why hottie/tech is broken. When you get to a door and disarm mines, the enemy team has approximately 35 seconds to respond before their building blows up, and that includes the time figuring out what building the infiltrator is in, and the time it takes before you realize that mines are down, and your positioning from the building that's being infiltrated. You also need to have the judgment to change your class to a hottie/tech instead of a shitty repair tool to disarm timed C4s safely. And while you have a good chunk of your team rushing to a building to save it from a 350 credit Hottie/Tech in the last critical seconds, you can potentially have 3 other Hottie/Techs going inside your buildings during that chaos, or have a tank rush go in and attack the farthest building if your team is sieging the base. 

Saying "it's your fault that you let them in" isn't a valid point on maps with multiple infantry entryways. You can't expect to have 1 defender in each path to deal with infiltrators that might not even be there for the whole game, and again having multiple tech/hotties sneaking in against 1 defender is the most efficient way to kill structures in this game.

The reason why this wasn't as much of a problem at least in my experience in original renegade, is because RenX has sprinting, silent repair guns, and very fast mine disarm rates. RenX infantry are also harder to see, and RenX maps usually have more entryways into a base and uneven terrain. You also can no longer plant mines on top of building doors, but was a cheese way to deal with sneaking.

In my opinion, losing a building to a hottie/tech is easily by far the most frustrating and boring thing about Renegade X. Losing a building to a vehicle siege or rush is a much different story. 

[LavaDr4gon]

I'm still up for a commando class infantry.

[boxes]

Think at this point the commando slot is pretty much Sydney/Raveshaw. They can kill buildings by themselves, but they make it much more obvious with the EMP and railgun/pic shots. Which, top of them being 1000 credits, is why their infiltration kills is much less irritating 

[Madkill40]

Remove sprint from Hotties/techies.

Maybe change timed c4 amounts to 1 from 2 and increase time for mine disarms? 

As Hotties/Techies double as a defender unit the heavy pistol is still quite useful so maybe just tweak the infiltration-specific stats of those characters?

Put their price up to 400 credits as well?

[boxes]

A bunch of idea's that I've been tossing around in my head, not everything needs to be applied:

Price increase to 500 (addresses how easy it is to spam them non-stop)

Return Heavy Pistol back to Silenced Pistol (must rely on other infantry for combat, heavy pistol headshots are brutal)

Louder mine disarm sound distance, similar to that of a mine exploding (More clear to the defenders for which building is being infiltrated)

Remote C4 Limit to 2 (including engies) (Less damage potential when defending or flaming C4)

Increase mine disarm time (too fast disarming 3 mines, sitting outside a building door doesn't take very long)

Decrease time to disarm remotes to match current mine disarm rate (forces infiltrators to pop their remotes quicker)

Have EMPs either stop remotes from being detonated or disarm them like mines (Have other infantry deal with infiltration other than trying to kill the hottie/tech)

Have hotties/techs disable buildings for a certain period of time instead of blowing them up (Still lethal but not a permanent effect)

Buff repair tool disarm rate to match repair gun

Less stamina

~

Just want to say I'm against splitting hottie/tech into two different classes. All that's going to do is make things more confusing and difficult, even though it has the right idea in mind. The repair gun being very universal is one of the most noob-friendly things in this game, and accidentally purchasing one version of hottie/tech instead of the other is just going to add complications.

Keep things simple. 

[RoundShades]

Same opinion as before: Take 1 timed c4 from engi and hotwire/tech, and then make timed c4 a beacon-slot item for all classes.

Then all classes will receive increased structure threat, and hotwire/tech can still do it for a bonus fee. Even SBH get an increased threat, which is fine because any EMP character receives an increased threat against a team with an Obby.

Speaking of, making EMPs disarm Remotes, Remotes diffuse faster, and possibly even with more difficult code, making EMPs pause Timed C4 countdowns, sounds neato indeed. Jolly good show (RIP Regular Show).

[boxes]

1 minute ago, YagiHige said:

Same opinion as before: Take 1 timed c4 from engi and hotwire/tech, and then make timed c4 a beacon-slot item for all classes.

Then all classes will receive increased structure threat, and hotwire/tech can still do it for a bonus fee. Even SBH get an increased threat, which is fine because any EMP character receives an increased threat against a team with an Obby.

Other infantry currently are fine when they are inside buildings, take gunner and LCG for example. It's a threat, but it doesn't need to wake the alarm bells of half your team.

The reason why Hottie/Tech is way more threatening because they take a building down in a single burst, while other classes have to slowly wither it down. 

[RoundShades]

11 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

Other infantry currently are fine when they are inside buildings, take gunner and LCG for example. It's a threat, but it doesn't need to wake the alarm bells of half your team.

The reason why Hottie/Tech is way more threatening because they take a building down in a single burst, while other classes have to slowly wither it down. 

...Which is why I think it's fair to share some of that damage with other classes for an added cost, a cost which is also added to infiltrator-hotwires, and for stalemate reasons as well.

Also, the only other option I can think of, is making disarmed mines give a "building damaged" alert like Enemy EMPs give, or a similar effect to anything placed on MCTs, rendering the "finding the building" less threatening, and "diffusing the c4" more of one. Still takes away some of the fun about the game.

EDIT: Actually, I did think of one way to improve it. We have building armor now. Just don't give them enough c4/damage to kill a building. Period. If it does permanent damage, it's already "strong enough", it's as strong as anyone else's shit is versus a building.

[boxes]

Just now, YagiHige said:

...Which is why I think it's fair to share some of that damage with other classes, for stalemate reasons as well.

Also, the only other option I can think of, is making disarmed mines give a "building damaged" alert like Enemy EMPs give, or a similar effect to anything placed on MCTs, rendering the "finding the building" less threatening, and "diffusing the c4" more of one. Still takes away some of the fun about the game.

Nothing needs to be shared, hottie/tech just needs to be toned down while others stay the same, otherwise it'll pointlessly introduce other problems that need to be addressed in the future

Right idea but players can still shoot another building with their pistol before disarming the mines, and mines are sometimes placed outside building doors. Feels like it just adds another layer of sometime to do before walking in a building

[RoundShades]

2 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

Nothing needs to be shared, hottie/tech just needs to be toned down while others stay the same, otherwise it'll pointlessly introduce other problems that need to be addressed in the future

Right idea but players can still shoot another building with their pistol before disarming the mines, and mines are sometimes placed outside building doors. Feels like it just adds another layer of sometime to do before walking in a building

All can be adapted. The mines can have a priority alert, or can have a unique alert. Mines should almost never be placed outside buildings, unless supplementing mines placed in buildings. Could even create a "temporary enemy blip" on radar where detonated. Which, the radar thing can be done, with the "louder mine disarm sound" thing.

So:
1) Add a cost to the c4.
2) Make mines alerting.
3) Redesign the mine or door defense system.
4) Tone down c4 damage so a surprise hit is no longer a kill on a full health building from recruit.

[Wrench]

tbh i think the price should be the same for the techs and hotties.

but it would be really nice to increase the disarm time on them (especially on mines, since these go down in seconds)

also increase the disarm sound

that should be it right?

[Axesor]

13 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

They are the ones responsible for mining

^ Hopefuly not anymore in the future. Depends on if devs didnt changed their minds.

I would agree with making Havoc/Sakura commando class. Give em 2 timed c4 and 2 remotes, while making adv. engi hold max. 1 timed c4. I think it would be the simpliest solution.

[Sn4ke]

14 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

In my opinion, losing a building to a hottie/tech is easily by far the most frustrating and boring thing about Renegade X. Losing a building to a vehicle siege or rush is a much different story. 

True.

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Price increase to 500 (addresses how easy it is to spam them non-stop)

No. As you've said on TS yesterday. It would take too long to mine a base. Bases would become extremely vulnerable to early APC & Buggy rushes. 400 could be ok.

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Return Heavy Pistol back to Silenced Pistol (must rely on other infantry for combat, heavy pistol headshots are brutal)

Hmm.... Just nerf the heavy pistol a bit? I can just speak for myself... I'm a pretty poor shooter but many sneakers are just avg. too.

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Louder mine disarm sound distance, similar to that of a mine exploding (More clear to the defenders for which building is being infiltrated)

Sounds good. But not an explosion sound, more like something being broken, or a *click* sound.

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Remote C4 Limit to 2 (including engies) (Less damage potential when defending or flaming C4)

+1

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Increase mine disarm time (too fast disarming 3 mines, sitting outside a building door doesn't take very long)

+1

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Decrease time to disarm remotes to match current mine disarm rate (forces infiltrators to pop their remotes quicker)

Nah, I think remotes are fine.

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Have EMPs either stop remotes from being detonated or disarm them like mines (Have other infantry deal with infiltration other than trying to kill the hottie/tech)

That would be interesting.

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Have hotties/techs disable buildings for a certain period of time instead of blowing them up (Still lethal but not a permanent effect)

sounds interesting... but that would change the game mode

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Buff repair tool disarm rate to match repair gun

Buff it for Remotes / Timed / Nukes only.

8 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Less stamina

Same stamina, less base speed.

 

Another thing....

Hotties/Techies can repair their own Remotes / Timed / Beacons while they're getting disarmed by the enemy.

I think that feature should get removed completely or at least get a heavy nerf. [proxy repairing is fine though!!!]

Especially unexperienced players have problems with that.... They might just think that a team mate is also trying to disarm, but there must be some kind of bug.

8 hours ago, YagiHige said:

Then all classes will receive increased structure threat, and hotwire/tech can still do it for a bonus fee. Even SBH get an increased threat, which is fine because any EMP character receives an increased threat against a team with an Obby.

No way. SBHs are already a very very powerful infiltration unit. 3-4 Recruit SBHs or 2-3 Elite SBHs can easily take out WF / REF / PP within seconds [requires teamwork, coordination and some luck...] from outside by shooting the MCT.

And 2 SBHs on Recruit do the same fucking thing with repair tools...

Edited January 23, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[SvN91]

Imo sneaking in to the enemy base and destroy a building is the most exciting and fun thing to do in the game. But I agree that it could be changed so that it must be done with more expensive commando units. Give Havoc and Sakura more C4 and make them cost 2000?

[Sn4ke]

1 hour ago, SvN91 said:

Imo sneaking in to the enemy base and destroy a building is the most exciting and fun thing to do in the game. But I agree that it could be changed so that it must be done with more expensive commando units. Give Havoc and Sakura more C4 and make them cost 2000?

nah, Sakura & Havoc are Snipers.

 

[SvN91]

1 hour ago, DarkSn4ke said:

nah, Sakura & Havoc are Snipers.

 

they are originally commando units, atleast Havoc.

[boxes]

2 hours ago, SvN91 said:

they are originally commando units, atleast Havoc.

At this point havoc and sak are going stay with ramjets. Making them commandos isn't going to make a significant benefit to gameplay, as i mentioned earlier ravs and sydneys fill that role of infiltrating a building and shooting things up. Super snipers although annoying are one of the few counters to field repairs and the other 1K characters. 

For the next update mine disarms will be louder, and we'll see if that makes any real difference. 

[Guest Gliven]

make friendly proximity mines show up on radar and map. im also not against a $500 hotwire/tech. dunno if id change mine disarm speed though

[voltex]

Most people now days lower the health of all mines to about %5 or so that way they can pretty much disarm all of them at once anyways so increasing the disarming speed wont really change much unless its dramatically increased. Even then It wont really help much because if someone isn't actively defending the base ( and I mean actually checking all the buildings and not standing in one choke point in a tunnel waiting for c4 kills) then the sneakers will get in regardless.

Most of these problems arise because the ones supposed to be defending the base don't actually know how to defend the base properly, too many times I've seen people say they will stay and defend only too see them running around in the field not 2min later.

Getting a sneak building kill is an exciting experience but I would like to see some changes that help defenders especially on maps such as Walls were Nods buildings are so spread out that it takes 3 days to reach them by spacecraft.

 

[dtdesign]

3 minutes ago, voltex said:

 

Most people now days lower the health of all mines to about %5 or so that way they can pretty much disarm all of them at once anyways so increasing the disarming speed wont really change much unless its dramatically increased.

 

 

The disarming speed needs to be decreased and on top of that: Why not make it an "all or nothing" job: Stopping the disarm procedure cancels it entirely, reverting the mine back to 100%.

3 minutes ago, voltex said:

Getting a sneak building kill is an exciting experience but I would like to see some changes that help defenders especially on maps such as Walls were Nods buildings are so spread out that it takes 3 days to reach them by spacecraft.

 

Walls is a good example for death by running, it takes bloody ages to reach buildings, especially on PP where both doors face the void rather than the base (it makes sense considering all these lame snipers, though). Another good example is the map "Fort" on public games, usually, there are only 1-2 active defenders (if lucky), it still takes ages to check buildings. Combine that with the lovely strategy of putting up defensive mines as an attacker and you won't defuse the C4 in time, even if you acted the second the mine counter decreased.

 

General speaking, Renegade is and has always been a team-focused game, where the teamwork and coordination should be the goal to achieve victory. Having a single hottie/tech sneaking into your base (*cough* Eyes *cough*) defeats this entirely, as they can bring down crucial infrastructure with the blink of an eye.

Seeing similar discussions while playing, I often hear people stating, that a coordinated team can easily defend against that and it just takes a "skilled" defender to take care of the base. While this may be somewhat true during PUG (where single hottie/tech rampage is still a thing), it's like 98% of the time people will be playing on public without any significant coordination taking place.

Oh and please, do something against these "spawn->crate->humvee->remote-c4" tactic, it is just super cheap and a hit on ref usually means the other team can pretty much surrender from then on. How about having buildings in some sort of reinforced mode in the first 5 minutes that prevents permanent damage (you can still farm money by hitting it's "shield"). Would also prevent flamer/chem rushes on Snow

[Fffreak9999]

21 minutes ago, dtdesign said:

Oh and please, do something against these "spawn->crate->humvee->remote-c4" tactic, it is just super cheap and a hit on ref usually means the other team can pretty much surrender from then on. How about having buildings in some sort of reinforced mode in the first 5 minutes that prevents permanent damage (you can still farm money by hitting it's "shield"). Would also prevent flamer/chem rushes on Snow

The main problem is that the main way to end a game is often determined during the first few mins while resources are low enough to prevent a fully developed defence from being in place, it is incredibly difficult to end a game after this, even when a successful sneak occurs, for every attempt that works, at least 10 will fail especially on maps like Under and Field.

[Madkill40]

I suppose it's difficult to debate whether a game has all its balances in check when you can end up with so many stalemates. 

10 minutes until a game can achieve balance.

Vehicle lockdown from the enemy team can always be countered if players come together with infantry to decimate light/heavy amour, it's just rare for this to happen.

Quote

A bunch of idea's that I've been tossing around in my head, not everything needs to be applied:

Price increase to 500 (addresses how easy it is to spam them non-stop)

Return Heavy Pistol back to Silenced Pistol (must rely on other infantry for combat, heavy pistol headshots are brutal)

Louder mine disarm sound distance, similar to that of a mine exploding (More clear to the defenders for which building is being infiltrated)

Remote C4 Limit to 2 (including engies) (Less damage potential when defending or flaming C4)

Increase mine disarm time (too fast disarming 3 mines, sitting outside a building door doesn't take very long)

Decrease time to disarm remotes to match current mine disarm rate (forces infiltrators to pop their remotes quicker)

Have EMPs either stop remotes from being detonated or disarm them like mines (Have other infantry deal with infiltration other than trying to kill the hottie/tech)

All of these, except for the last one.

Could EMPs just detonate remote C4s instead? Useful so long as your team, vehicles and/or buildings aren't within proximity.

It is also rare for enemy remote C4s to still await detonation when defending units get close by.

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Madkill40

[vandal33]

Remove Heavy Pistols and give them the basic handgun, increase delay time to detonate after deploying remote C4, lower health (but keep the flak jacket). Limiting their on-foot-combat as much possible is a good start.

[Fffreak9999]

Also as for the following:

1 hour ago, dtdesign said:

Oh and please, do something against these "spawn->crate->humvee->remote-c4" tactic,

I can change the settings for the crates so money crates will not spawn for a set time, eliminating the rush for the credits to do the early APC/humvee rush. 

I may trial this for the PUG next saturday to see how this impacts the gameplay. 

May set this to be a 3-4 minute delay so they will still happen in the mid-game, but early game rushing will be pushed towards the mid-game.

[Sn4ke]

8 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

I may trial this for the PUG next saturday to see how this impacts the gameplay. 

killing enemy harvy n defending the own harvy get even more crucial

[RoundShades]

5 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

Could EMPs just detonate remote C4s instead? Useful so long as your team, vehicles and/or buildings aren't within proximity.

Actually, that's a great counter, to "remote c4 defense camping doors", and to "full-kill structure", as a premature detonation allows repair between remote and timed detonations.

[Crowsy]

6 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

Also as for the following:

I can change the settings for the crates so money crates will not spawn for a set time, eliminating the rush for the credits to do the early APC/humvee rush. 

I may trial this for the PUG next saturday to see how this impacts the gameplay. 

May set this to be a 3-4 minute delay so they will still happen in the mid-game, but early game rushing will be pushed towards the mid-game.

 Will crates disappear or the crates will do something else in the first 3-4 minutes? 

[Fffreak9999]

10 minutes ago, Crowsy said:

 Will crates disappear or the crates will do something else in the first 3-4 minutes? 

They will provide other rewards such as veterancy, speed upgrade or maybe a random character (not spy)

[boxes]

46 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

They will provide other rewards such as veterancy, speed upgrade or maybe a random character (not spy)

No character please, don't want to see any early 1ks

[Kaiser739]

My opinion is to leave everything as it is. I'm fine with giving Hotties/Techs the silenced pistol again to nerf them in close combat, because they really are a bit overpowered in that respect.
Sneaking/infiltrating a building is not that easy to pull off, anyway. Sure, once you have demined a building and gotten inside, you are pretty certain to destroy it, but you need to get there first. 2-3 dedicated defenders per team should be able to stop any infiltrators. Sneaking and infiltrating a building for me is THE supreme discipline in this game and it should stay that way.
Maybe timed C4 should take longer to explode, so you actually need to defend them when you're inside an enemy building, but that's as far as changes should go in my view.

Also, what is the problem with early APC rushes? It's not like they can't be defended against. From my experience, early game is when the APC is used the most - people rarely use it mid or late game, unless strip/WF is down and they airdrop them in masses.

2 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

They will provide other rewards such as veterancy, speed upgrade or maybe a random character (not spy)

Please don't remove money crates completely. Lower their probability, yes, but if you remove them, that takes away many early game options. I can imagine there will be people thinking crates are useless and not worth going for when all they give are speed upgrades or veterancy points. These people will probably just sit in their base and wait for the harvester to drop before they do anything.

2 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

No character please, don't want to see any early 1ks

There are quite a few early 1k character crates on CT at the moment, I agree their crate propability should be lowered or even set to 0.0.

 

Edit: How about this: Significantly lower the chance of money crates during the first minutes and add a rare APC crate during the same time. So you can't buy an APC that easily. If you get one from a crate, you will need to drive back to your base first and then pick up your team mates. EVA would give a "Player X found an APC crate" so enemy teams would be warned and could prepare.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Kaiser739

[Henk]

I agree that it's very lame to lose a building to a Tech/Hotwire, this is partly due to how mines work but also the classes could use a nerf indeed. A simple increase in price won't cut it, and would extend the time that early rushes are possible,

[Steelpoint]

If the stated goal is to make Hotwire/Technician less versatile then why don't we simply split the classes role into two separate roles.

Have a Advance Engineer retain access to the Advance Repair Gun, and has access to Proximity Mines. However the Adv Engineer only has access to a Silenced Pistol for self defence, and does not have access to Remote C4 and only a single block of Timed C4

You then have a new class, whom I'll refer to as the Commando class, who has the Heavy Pistol, and multiple Remote and Timed C4. But does not have access to Proxy Mines. The Commando can either not spawn with a repair tool, or spawn with a 'free' repair gun that has a low ammo pool akin to buying a repair gun.

----

The Adv Engineer takes on a defensive role of being a superior Engineer, but lacks any real staying power in direct combat. The Commando takes on the offensive role, being able to attack and destroy enemy buildings and certain strategic assets, and has some staying power with their Heavy Pistol/Remote C4.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Steelpoint
grammar

[Crowsy]

11 minutes ago, Steelpoint said:

 

If the stated goal is to make Hotwire/Technician less versatile then why don't we simply split the classes role into two separate roles.

Have a Advance Engineer retain access to the Advance Repair Gun, and has access to Proximity Mines. However the Adv Engineer only has access to a Silenced Pistol for self defence, and does not have access to Remote C4 and only a single block of Timed C4

You then have a new class, whom I'll refer to as the Commando class, who has the Heavy Pistol, and multiple Remote and Timed C4. But does not have access to Proxy Mines. The Commando can either not spawn with a repair tool, or spawn with a 'free' repair gun that has a low ammo pool akin to buying a repair gun.

 

+1 Seems like the most fair solution.

[SvN91]

13 minutes ago, Steelpoint said:

If the stated goal is to make Hotwire/Technician less versatile then why don't we simply split the classes role into two separate roles.

Have a Advance Engineer retain access to the Advance Repair Gun, and has access to Proximity Mines. However the Adv Engineer only has access to a Silenced Pistol for self defence, and does not have access to Remote C4 and only a single block of Timed C4

You then have a new class, whom I'll refer to as the Commando class, who has the Heavy Pistol, and multiple Remote and Timed C4. But does not have access to Proxy Mines. The Commando can either not spawn with a repair tool, or spawn with a 'free' repair gun that has a low ammo pool akin to buying a repair gun.

----

The Adv Engineer takes on a defensive role of being a superior Engineer, but lacks any real staying power in direct combat. The Commando takes on the offensive role, being able to attack and destroy enemy buildings and certain strategic assets, and has some staying power with their Heavy Pistol/Remote C4.

flying a chinook into the enemy base with a commando team instead of some engineers does make more sense

[Novilan]

Despite thinking that sneaking into a base and successfully infiltrating a building is really exciting, I think that hotwires/techs are too versatile. They have good defensive, supportive and also offensive abilities in terms of infiltrating and destroying a building on their own. They are also quite cheap, but since they are very crucial in terms of defense (mining the base), the price shouldn't be increased at this point.

So regarding a simple solution I would favorize to get rid of one timed C4 of the hotwire/tech, so such cheap characters can't destroy a building on their own anymore. If we're going with only 1 timed C4 for the hotwire/tech either a bit more team effort would be needed, which I think would be good, like the hotwire/tech has to team up with someone or otherwise they have to try some more times.

Maybe regarding stalemates the second timed C4 could be given back to them on elite or heroic level.

Or the abilities should be split up into different characters like Steelpoint suggested.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Denuvian

[boxes]

Splitting the class into two is not the solution as I mentioned earlier. Them being able to kill buildings on their own isn't the issue, it's how easy it is to simply walk in a base/building undetected. That includes just spamming them blindly (again, them being 350 is why this happens) and running in until you get lucky that nobody sees you.

The last pug on field is a perfect example of why it's so easy to walk in. Tanks smashing a building to draw away defenders, sneakers all over the place run in undetected. Either that, or look at @Quincy's pov on islands on his nonstop attempts to kill the Nod ref until he gets lucky that nobody looks at his direction when he runs in through the front of the base. 

[Axesor]

I think that this privilege to destroy the building should be able for commando unit only - Havoc, Sakura. Just becouse they have ramjet rifles doesnt mean that they are pure snipers. They have high armor, carbine, they are icons of Renegade. But they cant do this raw damage to a building or a tanks as mobi/doza or rave/sydney can. They deserve more than just being OP sniper characters. I think commando role suits Havoc and Sakura very well. Give em 2 timed's and 2 remotes. And take 1 timed from adv. engi. 

The only thing I worry about is that Havoc and Sakura will be mkre popular character to choose.. becouse everybody hates to be one shotted with this op super accurate rifle.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Axesor

[Fffreak9999]

6 minutes ago, Axesor said:

They deserve more than just being OP sniper characters. I think commando role suits Havoc and Sakura very well. Give em 2 timed's and 2 remotes. And take 1 timed from adv. engi. 

I feel this is definately the wrong way to handle this.

The only reason we have any definition to Sakura/Havoc being a Commando unit is due to the single player mode of the original Renegade.

They don't translate well over to multiplayer games, since a Commando would be a Jack of all Trades, capable of killing units, destroying structures, only suffering vs Vehicles (but if they had extra C4, they can still handle vehicles).

Their multiplayer role is that of a Long range sniper/support killer.

You would be giving the class more utility than even the current Hotwire/Tech.

Realistically, there would ideally be a Saboteur/Spy/Infiltrator - Demolitions Expert who would be the main building destruction unit. But as there wasn't one in the original, and since Hotwire/Techs kinda filled this role, they were not split.

Realistically, I would reduce the Hotwire/Tech to a true Medic/Advanced Engineer/Base Defender and have a new class dedicated for building destruction. 

I will try to give more information in a bit, when I get a bit more time.

[Sn4ke]

1 hour ago, Fffreak9999 said:

The only reason we have any definition to Sakura/Havoc being a Commando unit is due to the single player mode of the original Renegade.

SP

Do we play Ren SP? - Nope. [Peroid!]

[Henk]

1 less timed C4 would be a good start. Why would a defensive unit, or any unit really, have 2.

[Fffreak9999]

Here is a suggestion, Please read all of it since all aspects are linked

Suggestion 1:

Timed C4 (Reduce Potency vs Buildings, increase vehicle damage).

Hotwire/Tech:

Change Sidearm to Silenced Machine Pistol (or advanced silenced pistol (increased damage over normal engineer pistol)

Keep Explosives the same as current, but with the Timed C4 Building nerf, limits their ability to 100% a building.

In return, increase their role as a Medic by giving them some improved infantry/vehicle repair rate

As part of this nerf create a new class aimed at building destruction at their core.

New Class: Demolitions Expert 

Cost: 500? Speed: Slightly faster than LCG but still lower than 100

Primary Weapon: Advanced Grenade Launcher (Increased damage compared to the GDI base class) 

Secondary Weapon: Heavy Pistol (as current)

Explosives: 

EMP Grenade (Recharge) 

3x Blast Charge (Think Timed C4 but Building Damage is high) (All 3 should deal about 90% total health and armor damage from full (values can be adjusted to allow for balancing)

2x EMP Mines (Think AT mines, but about 50-60% damage and does an EMP effect automatically on detonation)

 

Extra: Allow engineers to purchase an Advanced Repair Gun upgrade once Barracks/Hand is lost so they can improve their healing output.

[boxes]

36 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

...

Making a 2nd class unnecessarily complicates the game. The problem here can be solved easily by moving around HottieTech arsenal and/or decreasing performance as well as repair tool buffs. It's apparent by now that the game is already difficult to learn, and splitting a feature into two separate ones isn't going to solve anything, it'll just introduce new problems.

Issue we have right now, is that they are too spammable, kill inf/tanks very easily, and given map design how infantry behavior works, are difficult to keep out of a base even with dedicated defenders.

[Fffreak9999]

2 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

Making a 2nd class just unnecessarily complicates the game. The problem here can be solved easily by moving around HottieTech arsenal and/or decreasing performance as well as repair tool buffs. Issue we have right now, is that they are too spammable, kill inf/tanks very easily, and given map design how infantry behavior works, are difficult to keep out of a base. 

If anything, I feel it reduces the complexity of the game.

You complained about their high damage output via the Heavy Pistol, in my suggestion, that is removed from their arsenal.

As for ease of spamming them, their cost can be adjusted, $400 with their altered package would be reasonable, maybe even $450 depending on how it works.

Killing Infantry would be much harder with the adjusted side-arm, and as for vehicles, their only real potency would be in the base defense, since while they have the ability to use their explosives out in the field, they have to refill to regain their main ability to kill vehicles.

As for your last point of keeping them out of a base, my suggestion reduces their building kill potential which means that while they can infiltrate, their infiltration (while solo) will not easily yeild a building kill. Permanent damage would be inflicted, but not much more than a regular engineer rushing.

Also the introduction of a new class is not a new thing to RenX considering the marksman did not exist from the original game, and adding a new unit will provide a meta-change shift which will also make gameplay more interesting.

[Agent]

We definitely do not need any additional units.

[boxes]

40 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

If anything, I feel it reduces the complexity of the game.

You complained about their high damage output via the Heavy Pistol, in my suggestion, that is removed from their arsenal.

As for ease of spamming them, their cost can be adjusted, $400 with their altered package would be reasonable, maybe even $450 depending on how it works.

Killing Infantry would be much harder with the adjusted side-arm, and as for vehicles, their only real potency would be in the base defense, since while they have the ability to use their explosives out in the field, they have to refill to regain their main ability to kill vehicles.

As for your last point of keeping them out of a base, my suggestion reduces their building kill potential which means that while they can infiltrate, their infiltration (while solo) will not easily yeild a building kill. Permanent damage would be inflicted, but not much more than a regular engineer rushing.

Also the introduction of a new class is not a new thing to RenX considering the marksman did not exist from the original game, and adding a new unit will provide a meta-change shift which will also make gameplay more interesting.

They're designed to be lethal against structures because by default they carry a weapon that disarms defensive mechanisms and supposedly their combat abilities are lacking compared to other infantry, which is clearly not the case at the moment. 

Marksman is a free sniper class. It's clear that their function is to shoot things with a semi-automatic weapon. Plus if you make a mistake of getting one instead of a shotgunner, there is no penalty. Splitting Hottie/Tech is just going to have people relearn which of their features go where and adds confusion as to which one is useful in what scenario. On top of that we have to rebalance them out according to their given features so one isn't completely useless or overwhelming. 

[Steelpoint]

I suggested splitting the class since it achieves several objectives.

First and foremost it reduces how flexible the one class is, with the class split you have to chose what you want to do, do you want to be a superior engineer or do you want to carry enough explosives to level a building/asset?

Secondly with the class split you can afford to better balance the new 'commando' class WITHOUT impacting the Adv Engineer and their ability to deploy mines in the base at the appropriate time. 

[boxes]

55 minutes ago, Steelpoint said:

I suggested splitting the class since it achieves several objectives.

First and foremost it reduces how flexible the one class is, with the class split you have to chose what you want to do, do you want to be a superior engineer or do you want to carry enough explosives to level a building/asset?

Secondly with the class split you can afford to better balance the new 'commando' class WITHOUT impacting the Adv Engineer and their ability to deploy mines in the base at the appropriate time. 

The idea of one class being more flexible than others is not necessarily a bad thing. Main issue is that in its current state HottieTech does things better than other infantry classes in areas that they're not specialized in with a pricetag of 350. 

The Commando already exists in the form of Raveshaw/Sydney with their EMP and ability to tackle anything head on and win. 

[Steelpoint]

Commando is just a name, you can call it a Demolitions class. 

[dtdesign]

Thinking twice about the original suggestions and the concerns brought up in the current discussion, it effectively boils down to two separate issues that possibly should be addressed:

1. Replace the heavy pistol with the basic silenced pistol, significantly reducing the offensive potential.
2. Remove their 2nd timed c4 and leave them with the same amount of C4 as an engineer.

Reducing the timed c4 means that hotwire/tech cannot instakill a building within a second, but still bring it down to like 30%. Combined with a second player they can still blow it up, but they can no longer go from zero to hero by taking out a 100%/100% building on their own. This change is less effective if they keep the heavy pistol due to the significant damage against the MCT.

From my perspective, this is the least obstructive change. Neither does it cripple the defensive aspect, nor does it introduce the need for an additional class.

@Fffreak9999 I would definitely appreciate a nerf to the early crates. I've seen the poi/boi duo rushing towards a money crate and instantly suiciding to buy a humvee. On Walls, this means that the harvester is still approaching the tiberium field and you already see them pushing the pedal to the metal to take out PP or any other target.

Following the example, I have seen them taking out the ref this way before the first harvester was able to unload his cash. It goes without saying, that this has completely sealed the deal and especially on public (where you cannot expect the same level of coordination when it comes to defense) this creates a significant amount of frustration among the players.

[Sn4ke]

58 minutes ago, dtdesign said:

I would definitely appreciate a nerf to the early crates. I've seen the poi/boi duo rushing towards a money crate and instantly suiciding to buy a humvee.

it's not like this is a private boi/poi tactic...

the reason why they're doing that a lot is: they are on the same TeamSpeak channel. RenX is all about communication [just read about Sundays PUG]