Airdrop Nerf

[HaTe]

Let's try to come up with a solution to better balance airdrops, officially.

I personally really liked error's idea, and a variant of it as well.

His idea basically said that each time you purchase a vehicle, it increases the next vehicle cost by 50%. So a medium tank purchased for $1600 originally would then cost $2400 the next purchase. If another medium tank is purchased after that, it would cost $3600. It seems logical, and would force the lower tier vehicles to be purchased more than the upper tier ones, especially the later on in the game (and the more vehicles that have been killed).

Alternatively, a variant would be:

Have vehicles increase in purchase time by 50% after each purchase. A person purchases a vehicle at 5 minutes, then the next vehicle cannot be bought until 7.5 minutes after that. The following vehicle cannot be purchased until 11.25 minutes after that.

They both have the same general affect, but are just done in two completely different ways. Keep in mind that passive credits are going to be nerfed as well (and earned credits probably buffed, too).

Thoughts?

[RoundShades]

Just that, a per-purchase price increase can't be a percent, as buying a humvee would be driving prices up on you ever getting a tank instead. It has to keep that in mind.

1) In that regard, it can either increase prices more the longer the WF is down for, so every minute in the game is another +200 to the price and 20 minutes in the game everything costs 4k more.

2) Or it can increase the price by whatever you purchased last, accumulatively. If a humvee is 600 when the WF is down, you buy another one for 950, then 1300. If a med tank is 1600, its 2400, then 3200, then 4k. If you buy a humvee first for 600, then the next vehicle is a med then it is only 1950 because the humvee you bought first was cheaper.

I only say that, because buying a humvee to defend with until you get credits would be a tactical use of it, except it would become untactical because that humvee would make you need to buy 2 tanks instead of just 1 because you bought the humvee and drove the price up.

3) And by far the easiest fix to test in a quickly thrown together balance patch by the devs, is just to try out a credits nerf along with a 3x cost. 2400 med tanks, you can afford one to intimidate enemies from just rampaging in with their tanks, but you can't afford a rush of them anymore. I doubt any team with any economy can afford 3x tanks indefinitely, especially with a silo nerf and less credits being milked from buildings.

[DoctorB0NG]

I really like the idea of having the time increase between vehicle purchases. If only the cost increases, the team could potentially pool up to buy a tank Rush which I feel should be harder as you need to be punished for losing your wep /strip

[Glacious]

I think the best way to change this would be to simply add a server setting in which server owners can change the time between airdrops and also the percentage increase in price either per vehicle tier or just an overall percentage.

I say it would be better to be a server setting because AOW (All Out War) and Marathon servers will most probably want to have slightly different settings.

[RoundShades]

I think the best way to change this would be to simply add a server setting in which server owners can change the time between airdrops and also the percentage increase in price either per vehicle tier or just an overall percentage.

I say it would be better to be a server setting because AOW (All Out War) and Marathon servers will most probably want to have slightly different settings.

This is by far the best idea I had as far as easiest thing to do the very next balance patch.

Because he is right, with the credits decrease, this lets servers both practically turn it off (set to 10000%) and/or adjust it in case the number is too high or too low by default. If credits are somewhat adjusted, there has got to be a tolerable percentage between 200% and 400% that makes the game fun but not completely free of any consequences.

I don't know why I didn't mention it earlier, probably because "price gets higher the more it's used" fixes this, but marathon servers will need overall higher costs, since in an hour long game people will just have money to throw around galore compared to aow games that have a time limit to both accumulate credits and have time to do something with them before it's too late in the game to have effect.

And as I said before, this would be REAL nifty to have for the Bar/HoN as well.

[HaTe]

Server-side option for airdrop time would be nice, at the very least. I can see that working out, as it can be adjusted to find the appropriate balance.

[Axesor]

My opinion is that from destroyed WF/strip we shouldnt be able to purchase tanks like artylery/mrls and upper. The only thing what should be purchaseable is humvee/buggy, APC, transport heli with +50% cost.

Infantry can deal againts vehicles very well right now. Lets remind Rocket soldier, flamer, grenadier, engineers the suicide terrorists (if we are counting with destroyed bar/hon too). And with option to buy APC and these vehicles they would be able to organize rushes, you can rush even with RSs but I see it very rarely... well honestly I saw it only once in B4 and I was the organizer.

These vehicles can also face to Arty/MRLS, light tanks, med tanks, and flyers.

Try to remember how it is annoying to see GDI spawning mammys. This tanks stays behind WF and are very powerful to deter any incoming rush. They stays behind WF to the end of round and makes game boring and stalemate.

[Pharcyde]

When the strip/wf is dead, you and your team did a bad job.

No more verhicals then..

[Handepsilon]

I'd really like to think that airdrop is some kind of facility to make sure that while losing a building hampers you big time, it does not lock you away from victory

...does not mean I agree/disagree with airdrops now

[RoundShades]

If there was a server option for how much and how often:

1) It can be adjusted up or down to dictate balance

2) Can be used for Marathon and AOW differently, as different game mode has different needs in this area.

3) Can be turned completely off without wasting the effort that the devs took to having a working Airdrop option, via server owner turning it off or making it 1000% and 30 minute waits.

[Lt.Hargrove]

I think disabling the drops of logically too heavy vehicles can be another way to go about it. No APCs/Light Tanks/Meds/Mammoths, just like when Bar/HoN goes down. It looks a tiny bit silly when a chinook brings in a 200 tons heavy monster.

[Handepsilon]

Well, as far as silliness go, I still find this rather logical and... silly at the same time :

A chinook that drops... a chinook

But yea, the pilot needs to get home after the delivery so that's fine...

[RoundShades]

Also, another quick question. We been playing for about a month or so with the airdrop change? Why has none of us got off our lazy duffs and tried patching a mutator to fix airdrop cost multiplier and possibly tiberium silo income? I can live with officer and mcfarland, nobody abuses them but me anyway (no, literally, I do, I am not usually proud afterwards but I am usually happy ), but people keep preaching "this build unplayable" and I feel if we are sure about this, which we are, I could look into a temporary mutator until the devs tweak it and/or add a server config for it. If it isn't next patch, which it very well may be given your feedback, then we can use the mutator for serverside tweaking until it is.

Note: The tib silo tweak is pretty much confirmed, so that's a no-brainer to add to a mutator if one was made. Also, I am unsure if character damages, being registered clientside, would be safe-functional to mutate.

[Handepsilon]

Also, another quick question. We been playing for about a month or so with the airdrop change? Why has none of us got off our lazy duffs and tried patching a mutator to fix airdrop cost multiplier and possibly tiberium silo income? I can live with officer and mcfarland, nobody abuses them but me anyway (no, literally, I do, I am not usually proud afterwards but I am usually happy ), but people keep preaching "this build unplayable" and I feel if we are sure about this, which we are, I could look into a temporary mutator until the devs tweak it and/or add a server config for it. If it isn't next patch, which it very well may be given your feedback, then we can use the mutator for serverside tweaking until it is.

Note: The tib silo tweak is pretty much confirmed, so that's a no-brainer to add to a mutator if one was made. Also, I am unsure if character damages, being registered clientside, would be safe-functional to mutate.

I.... don't know if I should take it seriously or not...

Anyway... Airdrop needs fix too. Basically sometimes it bugs to negative (why not just clamp it to 0 anyway) and it refuses to work after changing team from a team that loses Strip and then lost WF afterwards

[salarite]

After playing a good amount of games recently, I definitely think Airdrop needs a nerf as is. It is a bit surreal that GDI can tank-siege Nod with WF down for 20 minutes, or Nod 12/12 flamerush GDI with AS down.

Not saying airdop is a bad thing, but back before it, losing WF/AS actually had weight. Now it's more like an annyoment. After asking ingame, I saw a lot of people agreeing with me. But of course there are probably some who don't.

[Handepsilon]

Again?

Might as well strict it to the fast mover, the APC, and the artillery

[RoundShades]

Again?

Might as well strict it to the fast mover, the APC, and the artillery

Again indeed. This comes up too often for something that works better than not.

I don't know in what way it is a minor nusiance, when the price and time are hiked up. 5 flamers are in no way steadily buyable at that rate, and killing one gurantees you won't see another for 8 minutes, meaning they will either be defenseless after a rush, or they can't rush because they have to spend a flame every couple of minutes to hold back tanks. Same with meds versus flames if the WF is down, they will eventually lose from attrition if their tanks cost that much and are limited, and 3 flames will always kill 1 med or more.

[Inilitus]

After playing a good amount of games recently, I definitely think Airdrop needs a nerf as is. It is a bit surreal that GDI can tank-siege Nod with WF down for 20 minutes, or Nod 12/12 flamerush GDI with AS down.

Not saying airdop is a bad thing, but back before it, losing WF/AS actually had weight. Now it's more like an annyoment. After asking ingame, I saw a lot of people agreeing with me. But of course there are probably some who don't.

I agree. If losing AS/WF meant that no more vehicles could be bought, this would force people to work together to repair their remaining vehicles and plan how to use them efficiently. I still see sometimes techs and engis ignoring my 2% flame tank even though the AS has been gone.

[RoundShades]

I agree. If losing AS/WF meant that no more vehicles could be bought, this would force people to work together to repair their remaining vehicles and plan how to use them efficiently. I still see sometimes techs and engis ignoring my 2% flame tank even though the AS has been gone.

Oh trust me, they wouldn't repair you anyway, it isn't their flame tank, and they are too busy shooting at infantry.

[boxes]

Again?

Might as well strict it to the fast mover, the APC, and the artillery

This with a vehicle limit of 3 and another price increase.

[RoundShades]

Again?

Might as well strict it to the fast mover, the APC, and the artillery

This with a vehicle limit of 3 and another price increase.

Now, to be fair, this was a good idea for the ref. Destroying it lategame or really rather mid-game on islands, doesn't really change anything. Everyone got 3k long before, and will make 3k last all game once the ref is gone, and some people hadn't spent all game and has 6k. If the ref destruction brought all players down to a maximum cap of 2.5k, it would be a lot more devastating late-game. It would also encourage donations rather than sitting on 5k cash on your own.

[Radeon3]

If the ref destruction brought all players down to a maximum cap of 2.5k, it would be a lot more devastating late-game. It would also encourage donations rather than sitting on 5k cash on your own.

With all due respect this is a bad idea.

• With that you couldn't buy a full combo of stank+nuke+tech if the PP is down, not to mention GDI builds. Do we need another limiting factor?
  
• Losing the PP+Ref already cripples a team, no need to further punish them.
  
• Not fair against people, who save up money because they are aware of that the refinery can be lost anytime and need supply to keep their momentum and carry on with their plans.
  
• Yes it would encourage donations, but I would donate anyways when the Ref is down and I have plenty of creds and others are in need.
  
• Ref has always been the most valuable building, B4 and B5 nerfed this but imo still worth more than the other buildings (at least I prioritize it when playing hide and seek in the enemy base). Adding another penalty after losing it would make it even more important.
  
• This is offtopic

[salarite]

I think the current wait time for a specific person is fine (how much time until he can buy his 2nd vehicle).

The problem lies in the following: a team can get a bunch of tanks together too easily with the current system. When the airdops become available, everyone can buy a tank. Sure, if those die, you won't be seeing another "round" any time soon. But the problem is already there, a team is having a ton of tanks with wf/as down.

I suggest the following: Make it so that people have to wait in between buying. For example, guy#1 buys a tank, then guy#2 (the next guy) has to wait like 3-5 minutes before buying, and so on.

Alternatively, (as others have suggested) restrict airdrop to basic vehicles, say APC and MRLS/Artillery only.

[RoundShades]

I suggest the following: Make it so that people have to wait in between buying. For example, guy#1 buys a tank, then guy#2 (the next guy) has to wait like 3-5 minutes before buying, and so on.

Alternatively, (as others have suggested) restrict airdrop to basic vehicles, say APC and MRLS/Artillery only.

There is a delay between airdrops showing up. Right now it is higher than normal, around 45 seconds. If it isn't configurable, I can ask if it can be made, Really 1 minute between vehicles already makes a 6 tank rush require 6 minutes of buildup, which can't even really be called a rush then, just a buildup. It already literally requires 4.5 minutes in b5, and normally takes a live building 1 minute if the team is well coordinated (hint: don't get your hopes up)

[SFJake]

I still laugh because the original idea was that a team can get 1 vehicle per 5 minutes. For the entire team.

That was the idea. The idea we discussed way back. And then something completely different and ridiculous came around and we're still living with the consequences?

[RoundShades]

I still laugh because the original idea was that a team can get 1 vehicle per 5 minutes. For the entire team.

That was the idea. The idea we discussed way back. And then something completely different and ridiculous came around and we're still living with the consequences?

Numbers are never set in stone. Again, increasing delivery time increases the gap between vehicles, and if configurable you can petition your local overlord (server admin) for higher times (1-2 minutes opposed to 30 seconds).

But on paper, games stalemate a lot less hardcore than before. Just because killing a building doesn't finish off a team, doesn't mean it's bad. Really, at least killing a building isn't a "throw your hands up in the air and leave" situation like it used to be, it was bad in beta 1-3 bruh.

[Truxa]

I long for the ref vs ref "stalemate" vanilla style.

Engi rushes with beacons galore!

[SFJake]

I still laugh because the original idea was that a team can get 1 vehicle per 5 minutes. For the entire team.

That was the idea. The idea we discussed way back. And then something completely different and ridiculous came around and we're still living with the consequences?

Numbers are never set in stone. Again, increasing delivery time increases the gap between vehicles, and if configurable you can petition your local overlord (server admin) for higher times (1-2 minutes opposed to 30 seconds).

But on paper, games stalemate a lot less hardcore than before. Just because killing a building doesn't finish off a team, doesn't mean it's bad. Really, at least killing a building isn't a "throw your hands up in the air and leave" situation like it used to be, it was bad in beta 1-3 bruh.

Yeah it was bad, but I mean, no team ever deserved to get that much after the WF-airstrip was down.

It kind of ruined the multi-stage of Renegade, particularily in Renegade. Once upon a time, you had to deal with it. One vehicle every 5 minutes was an idea to give just a small fighting chance or to help stop the eternal infantry stalemates, since vehicles are very important... but yeah.

1 vehicle per team. Every 5 minutes. Even when that was just an idea, I think there were people against it. I wasn't, but I'm just saying.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Guest

[yosh56]

Airdrop were also never supposed to be tied to credits... The whole thing is still technically a WIP that happens to be functional ENOUGH to be in-game right now.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Why not make airdrops more expensive for a person every time he uses it? Let's say my first vehicle purchase would be a light tank, It would cost 900 credits and 20 minutes later i buy another vehicle, but this time the price goes up by 50% of it's original value ---> I buy an APC but it costs me 1000? and it will cost me 1250 if i buy a vehicle for the third time?

Time or money penalty, i don't mind as long as you get punished harder every time you 'screw up again'.

[RoundShades]

Why not make airdrops more expensive for a person every time he uses it? Let's say my first vehicle purchase would be a light tank, It would cost 900 credits and 20 minutes later i buy another vehicle, but this time the price goes up by 50% of it's original value ---> I buy an APC but it costs me 1000? and it will cost me 1250 if i buy a vehicle for the third time?

Time or money penalty, i don't mind as long as you get punished harder every time you 'screw up again'.

I suggested this even before airdrops. Something progressively sacrificial.

OH! While we are at it, Harvesters respawn at normal rate. I would rather it respawn at a delay much like player vehicles. I like how it comes back, but a 6 minute death would be deserving. It completely rendering your refinery useless is sort of double-edged making it too severe a loss, but if a harvester death was even half the length of a player drop then a team would be without for 5 minutes. Encourages harvester defense and harvester killing, which is one of the most intense and pro-gamer parts of RenX in my experience.

[boxes]

For the next patch, are we going to see any reworks of the airdrop? We've heard enough ideas on how to nerf it already, but if there's nobody working on this, can we at least get a simple price increase to 3x?

[yosh56]

For the next patch, are we going to see any reworks of the airdrop? We've heard enough ideas on how to nerf it already, but if there's nobody working on this, can we at least get a simple price increase to 3x?

Been thinking about them already, just wasn't sure what to go with. Personally I'm thinking taking them back to tier 1 to mimmick the Barracks/HON changes. May even still allow Trannys, but that's just me talking because it's the bestest unit in the game.

[Handepsilon]

Transport Helicopter. Goddamn those MGs take 10% of building HP per clip.... Just park those things on Walls Plateau and we got some serious score whoring case, maybe even ridiculous base destruction

Anyway, Tier 1 seem to be good enough. At least artilleries are still purchasable, right?

[yosh56]

Transport Helicopter. Goddamn those MGs take 10% of building HP per clip.... Just park those things on Walls Plateau and we got some serious score whoring case, maybe even ridiculous base destruction

Anyway, Tier 1 seem to be good enough. At least artilleries are still purchasable, right?

Believe it is 11%

And Tier 1 I would say APCs+Buggies only. You can APC rush, and you still have Anti-air + an armored unit to make a wall with.

[Henk]

I'd like that, just tier 1 vehicles.

[Ap2000]

And Tier 1 I would say APCs+Buggies only. You can APC rush, and you still have Anti-air + an armored unit to make a wall with.

This sounds good.

Though, airdrops are so rare now anyway, they don't seeem to have much of an impact anyway.

[yosh56]

And Tier 1 I would say APCs+Buggies only. You can APC rush, and you still have Anti-air + an armored unit to make a wall with.

This sounds good.

Though, airdrops are so rare now anyway, they don't seeem to have much of an impact anyway.

Considering the pugs have literally had med rushes and public matches have hd Apace rushes... I'll finish this when sober.

[tekgunman]

I'd be fine with tier 1 vehicles only. As of now you can get any vehicle (?) from the airdrop and that's just not right. There needs to be more of a drawback for losing the air/wf.

[Madkill40]

Here's a solution that should satisfy everyone,

Allow for a construction time period (yes, just like in the RTS) with a marginal 10%-20% price increase for every vehicle. (Server side setting, obviously, another function being 'Off' unless it's undoable for dev-reasons)

This from the beginning of the game leaves players, at minimum, 15 seconds to wait for their vehicle, meaning more players would go infantry-first at the beginning whilst another team groups up with vehicles.

On some levels where the harvester takes too damn long to move its ass this would give it a 15 second head-start.

Airstrikes become more deadly depending on map.

If you have gone through every vehicle 10 times in one map only then will they be a reflection of 100% price increase as well as how badly one person could be in a vehicle to lose 70-110 vehicles in one game? Hah.

I see more good than bad stemming here, always bear in mind that there is a way to effectively punish the players without dissatisfying people too much, giving them that gamer attitude we all adrenaline rush into at times. If you think the punishment should be more then a mutator is the way to go, but if you punish the player too much the general enjoyment is at a much higher risk of tipping.

[i----Edited : Note -----[/i

Side-note: 1K Infantry could have a waiting time, which could give us all an easier time of balancing mid-tier infantry properly?

[RoundShades]

I... am not sure how easy this would be to code... but would love to try this in practice just because.

For infantry and vehicles, make it 1 second per 10 cost, and make it where you can buy it, it takes your money and starts the timer, then you can go off and do stuff, then you come back to a PT later to collect it when it's fully done. Maybe make it to where if you want something different, you have to cancel to recollect your investment and reselect something else and then re-wait.

That is technically how C&C games work.

As far as airdrop balance, the price can double and build time half, so it takes much higher for expensive vehicles, and much lower for cheaper ones. Doing the math, a 3k mammy would take 600 seconds, or 10 minutes.

I always still just liked the idea of vehicles getting progressively more expensive each time you buy 1 after the factory is dead.

[Ryz]

I think airdrops will be restricted to humvees, apcs and buggies in the next patch. At least that's what Yosh mentioned...

[RoundShades]

It's in the preliminary notes. Who knows if it will be perfect though, doesn't hurt to conjecture. Might be better, might be worse, might be perfect, might just need the addition of basic tanks for each side.

I am at least eager to try countering vehicles or attacking a base using apcs with gunners. At least we get to experiment and see if new tactics like gunner-apc are legit-or-shit.

[boxes]

Should be fine. Having only MG vehicles means no more building bombardment via armor, no more air, and best of all, no more tank rushes. APC rushes won't work if the other team is keeping a constant stream of tanks.

[yosh56]

Yeah we had a moment during a PUG where we built a med rush with no WF...and as we did this we just stopped and had to remark that this was stupid.