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Mines system suggestion


Axesor
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Okay, I'll make this more straightforward. I don't like the mining system in the game. I don't like that you have to rely on intelligence and knowledge of the other players when it comes to such a sensitive thing, such as securing the door. Often I see 2 techs to drag about it, who can better mine the door, mines are disappearing and before they agree to so the refinery is gone!!!

Suggestion:

Step 1:

The mines wont be able to deploy in the buildings anymore.

Step 2:

The door will never open to a member of the opposing faction. But if someone sneak in, while the doors will be open when someone step out, so he can keep doors opened if he is close to it.

Step 3:

These doors will be destroyable (with 1x timed c4) or could be damaged with any weapon.

The doors will have its own health bar and will be repaireable if its not destroyed yet.

If door was destroyed, so they will be opened for 1minute and then these doors will automaticaly instantly regenerate to 100%.

Damaging of the doors wont be alarmed such as attack on the building (or it shoud be?)

Step 4:

No more shared mine limit anymore!

Every player will be able to place 6 mines. If they cross this limit, their mines will dissapear.

Step 5.

Destroyable mines. Every mine will have 150 or 200Hp (just like free character) and could be damaged with any weapon.

-Mines in building seems to me as such a big nonsence that I hope that something will change about it.

-The mines around the building will be normaly placeable (-use of EMP nade).

-We could use the mines on the other and more important places.

-No more lengthy repairs of the wrong placed mines.

As always, sorry for my bad english. I just want share my ideas with you.

Agresor :mad:

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Glad you are thinking and making suggestions about this Axesor. While I agree that it's hard to rely on teams sometimes I also think that the things you wrote aren't the solution. The doors for example would make the game even more into a stalemate. I mean If you lose c4 on a building:

1) You don't have enough c4 to damage it from the inside

2) Your position is spoiled, so the surprise is over

I rather invest in another way of organizing mines AND we are doing a tutorial. Furthermore I also think that a big part off the game is the fact that new players join a MULTIplayer game and act like they are in Skirmish. They cannot and will not communicate thus making things a mass, for example by continuing with over mining or handing out vehicles.

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Absolutely agree with Ryz, none of these suggestions seem good.

I rather invest in another way of organizing mines AND we are doing a tutorial. Furthermore I also think that a big part off the game is the fact that new players join a MULTIplayer game and act like they are in Skirmish. They cannot and will not communicate thus making things a mass, for example by continuing with over mining or handing out vehicles.

Yeah, we two have seen it on Walls yesterday, playing as GDI.

I don't wanna say a name, but a guy just wouldn't listen and afterwards he said he was treated unfairly.

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Yeah, we two have seen it on Walls yesterday, playing as GDI.

I don't wanna say a name, but a guy just wouldn't listen and afterwards he said he was treated unfairly.

Thx for agreeing!

Maybe there should be a way, like a poll, to send out a huge message to a person. Yesterday I couldn't reach any mods and the votekick was blocked by our opposing team. I guess they rather won by cheating than in a fair way. Anyways: what about an option to send like huge messages to a player or freeze him for a short time when something is going wrong? This will force him / her to read and communicate. A mistake can be made, but teaching people stuff will be hard of the only thing they listen to is a kick...

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I disagree that this will make game more stalemate. I can clearly imagine other tactics how to get inside the building. Sure, there wont be option that sneaky tech or hottie will destroy building all alone anymore. You are always crying you wanna game more team-play based, well this will make it better a litte bit (again-hottie/tech issue).

Handepsilon:

"Cannot mine inside the building? That would make the mines too obvious. What is the better place to mine other than on the doors? Entrance? Yeah right. APC rolls in and steamrolling the mines.

Mining inside is not nonsense dude"

Disagree. Lets not just be such a single minded, dude. Mines can be used somewhere else. There would be no more need to mine doors. Every player would be able to mine how he feels in this moment-he can mine base, tunnel and i dont know what else. So everybody would have option to mine and wont screw up game for whole team.

I think you just didnt read all my thoughts.

Doors:

Light armor

400hp

-c4 wont be the only way how to get in. Also tanks can help or group of players, sbhs, gunners or even stupid free soldier. Sneaky hottie would need +1 player support to get in. Or he/she can wait till someone get out, run in and shot him-and infiltrate this way.

Also after destroying doors, they will be open for 1minute so there will be of plenty time to infiltrate.

Just read all steps pls and try imagine there could be other tactits and not just relying on most noob player in team who wants mine.

"Mining inside is not nonsense dude"

In this game maybe not. But just imagine it... mines in the building? wtf? You cant imagine other way of use to your mines?

Relying on some tutorials about mining? Its just big NO NO! This should be massive multiplayer game I cant imagine everybody will search for tutorials. Players mostly wants just play and not rely on some n00bs who dont even know mine system of this game, or be part of some comunity.

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Disagree. Lets not just be such a single minded, dude. Mines can be used somewhere else. There would be no more need to mine doors. Every player would be able to mine how he feels in this moment-he can mine base, tunnel and i dont know what else. So everybody would have option to mine and wont screw up game for whole team.

I think you just didnt read all my thoughts.

Mining outside of the buildings just means easier building penetration. Even if the mine limit is per person, not everyone is going to mine, and that would just likely mean less overall mines 95% of the time. Look at AT mines. They're highly effective, yet rarely used, because each person can only use 2, and so most people don't bother with them. A team of 20 on many maps using 2 each can stop just about any rush with these alone, but people just don't use them.

Mining isn't that complicated, it's just that the way mines work are a bit buggy as is, because they check collisions with themselves, so you can't put them too close to one another or they lose a lot of their effectiveness.

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Mining outside of the buildings just means easier building penetration.

There wont be need to mine outside of the building.

Step 2:

The door will never open to a member of the opposing faction.

This kinda makes mining individualistic and useless. It does teach people not to rely too much on mines but... this is just asking to remove mining.

Yes it will be individualistic. You can choose by your own where you wanna place your mines.

Guys, try to imagine that the mines would not only serve to protect the buildings but it still can be one of the options.

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That just makes damaging he doors a necessity, just as mining is now. It replaces one sometimes flawed system with another sometimes flawed system.

Sneaking is a part of the game. Being a hotwire and sneaking in and disarming mines is part of the game. Having to destroy the door with one of your c4s takes away from that.

In SP in Renegade, a team (individual) had to first acquire a "key card" to access certain doors. That doesn't make much sense for multiplayer though, hence why the mines were added into the game in the first place.

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Yes, AT mines are USELESS! Lengthy deploying, easy spotting, no durability, low damage. 2 antitank mines cant even destroy MRLS.

If placing would be fast as placing PMines and damage=timed c4 it would be great and I will gladly drive around the map in Buggy and deploy this mines around.

That just makes damaging he doors a necessity, just as mining is now. It replaces one sometimes flawed system with another sometimes flawed system.

No its completely different. It will improve game a bit:

1.You can use you mines as you feel its the best in the moment.

2.One single noob who dont know mining system in this game, or some stupid troll, wont be able to ruin the game for whole team.

3.Hotties or Techs wont be able to sneaky destroy building all alone. So they will need +1 player with c4 or with powerful gun, or tank support.

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Guys, try to imagine that the mines would not only serve to protect the buildings but it still can be one of the options.

That's just it. Mines will no longer be able to effectively protect buildings and no longer be able to prevent infiltration. It is going to be solely anti-infantry utilities. As I said before APC STEAMROLLS MINES

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The building will be protected by new door system, which wont open to a member of the enemy team. But you cant still increase this door defence with your mines. I can clearly imagine 5 techs who will deploy 30mines behind refinery in early game, but its not necessary.

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The building will be protected by new door system, which wont open to a member of the enemy team. But you cant still increase this door defence with your mines. I can clearly imagine 5 techs who will deploy 30mines behind refinery in early game, but its not necessary.

Your idea is balanced around having many players.

If the server isn't full, let's say 10vs10 (which is not that uncommon), then a side would need a good 5~7 techs/hotties just to mine all the buildings.

With the way it is now, even 1 miner is enough, and usually it's 2~3 people.

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I am not going to lie. I think mines should exist, and continue to do what they do, and not be apart of hotwire/tech class anymore (independent item purchase)...

...but honestly, "Breach doors" sounds like a decent ass idea. And, you can always just make 1 remote open the SOB which is the equivalent to a SBH clip iirc, and you can give engis an extra brick of remote to comphensate (and the havoc/sakura), and all of that in total you can still just wait for an enemy to open it for you like I see so many hotwires do to Nod when they hug the geometry of the back of the Ref or PP when infiltrating because players are blind except for me.

I +1 breach doors, but that would be a big experiment in balance and should be taken as such, perhaps just as a test for the devs to test with one of the servers or their own internal testers.

Give breach doors "light armor" also, if I may suggest.

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No need to fix what isn't broken.

Replacing a "sometimes flawed" system with another "sometimes flawed" system is both unnecessary and pointless.

Describe the flaws with the mine system, and the breach door system?

I think the breach door isn't as flawed of a system, is a good supplementary system, and is a "good system" independent of mines altogether.

As far as mines and breach doors go, I know the "consensus vote". It will be the same reason marijuana isn't legal, but alcohol and tobacco are: legacy allowance. Despite both being extremely toxic in comparison.

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The flaw with the mine system is that it is team based; meaning one uneducated or trolling teammate can ruin the entire mining for the whole team.

The breach door system almost entirely eliminates the "solo sneak" possibility, with a tech/hotwire needing to have a companion to be able to do the damage to the doors to be able to open them. Not to mention that it would look stupid with there being no door in the buildings after it is broken (and tanks can splash damage in the buildings easier with that too).

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The flaw with the mine system is that it is team based; meaning one uneducated or trolling teammate can ruin the entire mining for the whole team.

The breach door system almost entirely eliminates the "solo sneak" possibility, with a tech/hotwire needing to have a companion to be able to do the damage to the doors to be able to open them. Not to mention that it would look stupid with there being no door in the buildings after it is broken (and tanks can splash damage in the buildings easier with that too).

Those are problems? I see those as entirely within the realm of reason.

A tech/hotwire can breach with a heavy pistol easily by that logic considering the damage that damn thing does. That would require them to not have a carbine too, imagine that?

As far as tanks, yeah, they could shoot into buildings that way couldn't they, imagine that?

Who here thinks those are IMPROVEMENTS? I do.

I say that after having to painstakingly win 2 games by getting the repairing engineers off the MCT in a building, and on canyon the wf side door was mined and my tiberium splash was very difficult to get to hit any repairing guys, and on whiteout the backdoor of the ref kept closing and I couldn't easily get a shot inside with a stealth tank because the door just would randomly close and I am fairly sure the hotwires weren't intentionally opening it and closing it.

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There wont be need to mine the buildings even if server is full. The doors just wont open to member of opposite faction.

Placing mines around the buildings or at doors will be something like defence bonus but It will not be necessary.

It's absolutely necessary, since you just said a single C4 would destroy them for one minute.

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About that time we can discuss. I think 30s or 60s is fine proposed times-It is something that should be tested in practice.

I think 1 hott or tech can handle one broken doors for 1minute. If not, well, some big shit must be going on at that moment and its fault of team if they cant handle big rush.

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You rly still wanna mine the doors in final version of the game? Now it seems like, that "somebody" just didnt seen other ways to protect buildings so put mines there as main defend feature in game, and now deal with it dear players. It shouldnt be like that. This just couldnt be meant seriously. Its very broken and ill conceived what it is now.

The most stupid thing is relying on someone else, on one single player, who can ruin everything, who just want to place 50 mines in tunnel, who dont know how the current mining system works, or just wanna piss you off. There shouldnt be the option that one single player can ruin the game for whole team.

Now it works fine only becouse of good comunity. But it wont work forever!

This game is great. It has really big potential. But there is many thing what have to be fixed.

I know that probably no one will do anything about it, but we can at least try to discuss about it. Try to find the best solution.

Swahhh wrote:

Because in this game, when people grief, players will get mad easily. And most of the time they will kick you for it. Here a couple of examples.

Example 1: placing proximity mines wrong.

...

http://renegade-x.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=75070

Edited by Guest
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So: IF this would be implemented which I really doubt, how would you think about the HON stairs or the Strip stairs? You can now get into these buildings from outside. This is mainly for balance since GDI doesn't have stealth. Changing the mine system into a door system would.

- Change the balance in the favour of Nod

- Moves the gameplay fuhter away from the origal game

In other words, I think it won't make sense.

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So: IF this would be implemented which I really doubt, how would you think about the HON stairs or the Strip stairs? You can now get into these buildings from outside. This is mainly for balance since GDI doesn't have stealth. Changing the mine system into a door system would.

- Change the balance in the favour of Nod

- Moves the gameplay fuhter away from the origal game

In other words, I think it won't make sense.

Yes, you are right about the windows, but it would not be in the fevor of Nod only. I generaly dont like these window infiltrations. It smells glitchy. Deploying Ion's inside strip etc...

I was thinking about this issue some time before, but I dont have clear answer. Yes, you got me. And this is why I did not enter this thread in feedback section, but into general so we can discuss about it.

I have one idea what would fix it but it sounds silly even for me-The force field instead of windows that won't let anyone inside but bullets will go through.

How do you want this game to look like in final version? Put mines as main and the only defensive feature of buildings to prevent unfair infiltration is unprofessional and ill conceived and something must be done about it.

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Have you even played renegade?

Not today yet :)

Cant you see that the game is not finished and this door-mining system cant work forever?

I feel like stucked gramophone record, repeating everything again and again- Now its working just becouse there is good comunity.

Mines were in original Renegade.

They actually work in RenX better, besides the floating ones that are so easy to run into on servers and completely mess up your mid-game doing anything, and since mines are usually around game-deciding outcomes, it can directly affect a game's outcome. I felt like in Under it affected the outcome of several matches.

I am just saying, mines aren't that functional. They are legacy, legacy should be kept and maintained to a degree, but you can't ignore new ideas or functionality. Speaking of, give mines gravity and non-stickiness please already!

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I have one idea what would fix it but it sounds silly even for me-The force field instead of windows that won't let anyone inside but bullets will go through.

A Star Trek mod with forcefield? :)

How do you want this game to look like in final version? Put mines as main and the only defensive feature of buildings to prevent unfair infiltration is unprofessional and ill conceived and something must be done about it.

The main and only defensive feature IS the team and in some maps base defense. Anyone who pays attention to the game will notice enemies moving in. Mines aren't a way to prevent them to get in, more a warning system. So you suggest that someone can sneak in, wait 30 secs before a door is down by C4 and stays undiscovered. Than if nobody has detected him / her AND the system messages saying building under attack where ignored the person gets in to the Master Control Terminal and stays another 30 seconds undiscovered. What are the odds that works? The changes will make the game a complete stalemate while you now have a small changes by evading / diffusing mines.

Also:

If you don't like people jumping windows and placing beacons? Maybe we should make the WF have one FLAT roof cause there are plenty spots to stick a beacon there.

I think the buildings and the way they are build were thought out good in Renegade and still work fine in Ren-X, and it's also a bit of legacy indeed. Changing this, will change the WHOLE way of how the game is player thus making it another game instead of Renegade-X

I appreciate you thinking out loud and making the effort to write down your story here. But it would be like: The White House is a very popular building for terrorism, lets make it one big concrete wall. Yeah you take away (almost) every risk. But you also destroy an iconic building. Doors will make the 'iconic' infiltration of buildings just like that.

Amen :P

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Have you even played renegade?

Not today yet :)

Cant you see that the game is not finished and this door-mining system cant work forever?

I feel like stucked gramophone record, repeating everything again and again- Now its working just becouse there is good comunity.

Do know that I'm not an oldren multiplayer guy, but I do know that mines are essential the moment people screams about it everywhere. Probably because I wanders around the forum and all, but still...

I think mines are fine the way it is

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I think mines are fine the way it is

I don't. The floating ones can't be disarmed.

AT THE VERY LEAST, MINES SHOULD NOT BE IMMORTAL.

After that, I also suggest they not be stickable. I personally LIKE them being plantable on the rooftops and walls, but it causes problems. It also allows them to have gravity so if you throw them they just fall to the ground if they hit something, maybe a light bounce for expected effect.

Also, I still say giving them to hotwires, one of the most common classes in the game, causes part of the trouble, and if they were an independent item then they would cause less natural problems in the hands of newbies as well as displace some of those 9 out of 10 roles a hotwire fills. Then just reduce her cost by 50 creds, or don't because I wouldn't care either way.

After that, the mining and the limit. That is the reason I rather have breach doors. Then you could give each person a mine limit of 3-9, or do something else with them that keeps them.

Besides that, you could do it another way. If you are going to do mines then make a system that doesn't get misunderstanding people kicked from a game by an elitist community. Here is an old suggestion about mines:

1) Players have a personal mine limit of 6.

2) Team has an overflow mine limit of 24.

3) This way, if a player mines, it takes their personal mine limit first. Afterwards, it takes the team mine limit. Any extra mines past the team mine limit start causing the personal mine limit to disappear.

4) This way, shit miners can't ruin the game after good mining has been done, and if shit mining was done first at least some corrective mining can still be done too if needed, if worse case as a temporary until shit-mines are disarmed or something.

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Reaction on Ryz:

Doors wont be destroyable only with c4. I suggested 400Hp and light armor, so group of any characters can break in. This totaly wont make game stalemate becouse:

1.You can wait till somebody get out and you can run in while doors are open and keep it open.

2.if doors are destroyed while big tank rush is going on so engis can be killed while repairing terminal so OBI and AVG will be more vulnerable in Field map (for example).

3.It would be easyer for hott/techs or any infantry to get in when the base will be under tank siege. How it could be fair and stalemate when enemy team cant defend and everybody is just repairing control panel, spaming flame soldiers/grenadiers untill all tanks are destroyed?

4.Hott/tech can still destroy bulding by himself all alone but they would need to take Heavy pistol or +1 player with any c4's.

5.Can break in with any group of infantry.

And once again: Its working fine now becouse of good comunity. It won't work forever like that.

This is fucking sci-fi. If you have better idea about windows so bring it on.

A Star Trek mod with forcefield? :)

This is fucking sci-fi. If you have better idea about windows so bring it on!

Also: What is Renegade X? =C&C in FPS. Its definitely not mines, doors, ...wierd gunplay :x. It also not just copy of old c&c:renegade. This game has to "kill" an old renegade and be better in all possible ways.

Sorry, but mines as main anti-infiltration defence feature just couldnt be meant seriosly and I dont belive it will stay in final product, where will rotate 1000+ players on all servers and this small comunity will be eaten!

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Renegade is an RTS FPS hybrid. Meaning buildings and mines fit right in.

If you don't believe that it will stay and it's going to be replaced by some silly destroyable door system, I suppose arguing with you is moot anyway.

Idk. I don't want mines to stay the way they are right now. I DONT WANT THEM IMMORTAL, EKT will kick your ass for planting them in the wrong place but won't kick you for planting them floating with your big ass name on it because your leet hacking skills are contributing to the team major sauce. I rather them be more sensible, maybe a little more obvious as far as how it pops from the background, and we need some sort of system that doesn't lead to you getting kicked for griefing when you weren't griefing.

Giving the enemy tanks, and planting 30 mines in 1 place, is one thing. Planting 3 mines at the opening of the goldrush bridge and getting kicked for it is bullshit. If they keep mines, they have to own up to it and fix them somehow. No, they do not work now. I won't argue removing them, I liked them in original Renegade. I expect them to be own't up to though.

Also, the carbine, while I am complaining. It either needs more cost, veterancy requirement, limits, cooldown, nerfed, not as hitscan as it is, ammo limit to it by only having 2 clips which is enough to use it but not exclusively on your class, something...

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Obviously the floating mines and mine stacking are glitches that need to be fixed. Trying to completely throw out the current system for a completely radical and silly new one just because of a glitch in how the current system works is irrational.

Personally, I think that "certain servers" should just raise the mine limit by 10 or so. Help to counter the "bad mining" or mining disagreements.

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I'd like if mines got removed ~15 sec after whoever put them left the server.

Just today we had a guy mining really bad and before he did anything about it, he just left and we were stuck with a good 10 useless mines.

Also, I still say giving them to hotwires, one of the most common classes in the game, causes part of the trouble, and if they were an independent item then they would cause less natural problems in the hands of newbies as well as displace some of those 9 out of 10 roles a hotwire fills. Then just reduce her cost by 50 creds, or don't because I wouldn't care either way.

I think that's a very bad idea. Then we have a lot of people just throwing out a mine here and there that aren't actually dedicating themselves to be the tech/hottie character, by buying it.

Besides that, you could do it another way. If you are going to do mines then make a system that doesn't get misunderstanding people kicked from a game by an elitist community.

What's elitist about trying to tell people how to play efficiently?

I have yet to see anybody get kicked just for being a bad miner.

If anything, people try to contact them FREQUENTLY in chat, but those people just don't listen. And quite frankly, people that don't listen... well, it's their own fault if they kicked, no matter the reason (abusing, bad mining, cheating etc.). The admins and mods on TmX and EKT servers are really nice to people that, well, screw up.

And I personally prefer people telling me when I do something stupid in games. I've always listened to older players in online games, because that actually makes sense.

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I'd like if mines got removed ~15 sec after whoever put them left the server.

Just today we had a guy mining really bad and before he did anything about it, he just left and we were stuck with a good 10 useless mines.

I'd rather have this then have someone on defence properly mine the entire base and then lose connection/leave. You'll go from defended to completely vulnerable in seconds.

You could make it so that players can remove mines of there own team but that would allow grievers to screw things up so you would have to limit it to just own team mines of players that have left and then its only useful in limited situations.

Maybe you could implement a mine tutorial overlay that could then be forced to be shown to a player if enough fellow team mates vote to show it. It could be done with a few other topics too and would certainly help new players out that don't read chat log

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I'd rather have this then have someone on defence properly mine the entire base and then lose connection/leave. You'll go from defended to completely vulnerable in seconds.

The 15s was just an example, 1 minute would do it too.

Or that, as soon as a person leaves, you can deconstruct his mines with your repair weapon.

A server option for a HARD mine limit might also be worth thinking about. If it's 35/35, nobody in a team can put any more mines down.

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