SBH Nukes

[Daxter]

okay i stop here ... people do not understand that the game is only in beta ... that there is a lot polish to come ...

lets talk about this if the the stealth part of the game is finished or at least a bit more tweaked ...

not ask devs to put something in that needs new code and balance if the current system is far from beeing finished

of course its a beta. and thats why we are talking about those failures and problems here...

[Soldieroffate]

Am I the only one that misses the beacon marker on the map when your teammate drops one? Makes it hard to know where it is, and therefore provide appropriate cover.

[Truxa]

Am I the only one that misses the beacon marker on the map when your teammate drops one? Makes it hard to know where it is, and therefore provide appropriate cover.

I don't miss it, but {I would like to see it happen yeah! If the report feature would show the beacon for the enemy, why not on your own team as well

in many occasions i ask where the beacon is planted at (e.g. goldrush) to sniper-cover it yet no one answers

[TigerXtrm]

Only thing I now hate about SBH nukes is that on maps without defences, putting down 4 at the same time is instant win. In the chaos that ensues you're guaranteed to take out at least one building. And because no-one can see you, Nod has all the time in the world to co-ordinate their attack. I've been seeing this happen more and more, all engies flock to where the first beacon was planted and the last beacon gets the kill.

There needs to be some limit on the amount of beacons planted at once because this is just silly.

[Daxter]

here an idea how to stop that sbh rush that comes up in almost every match: sbhs should be limited. 10 players = 1 sbh. e.g. if nod has 40 players, nod can have 4 sbhs in its team.

[epicelite]

here an idea how to stop that sbh rush that comes up in almost every match: sbhs should be limited. 10 players = 1 sbh. e.g. if nod has 40 players, nod can have 4 sbhs in its team.

So all the terrible players take SBH and spend the entire game pussyfooting around and never die.

[Eagle XI]

Thats absolutely true, i stood away from any server limiting classes in Battlefield. At almost every instance an useless guy will have the limited class and idle on the favorite camping spot of his with it, instead contributing the intended role of the class to the ongoing war effort.

Please never-ever enforce a limit on classes.

[Soldieroffate]

here an idea how to stop that sbh rush that comes up in almost every match: sbhs should be limited. 10 players = 1 sbh. e.g. if nod has 40 players, nod can have 4 sbhs in its team.

This is both an absurd and ingenious idea at the same time.

Maybe for once, Nod will actually have to use a brain than simply have half the team run in as sbh. Especially on Walls.

[SFJake]

A Nod team full of SBH isn't supposed to be good. In fact its supposed to be terrible for Nod. If that ain't the case then thats what needs to be changed. Not something to arbitrarily limit them. Its a terrible idea.

[Daxter]

a sbh limit would be good for nod (especially when the noobs get better), not too many sbhs around so nod can actually also count on players on field and not too many sbhs spaming nukes at gdi base and the game is a bit more balanced. and who cares when some idiots are using the sbhs? nod doesnt really need good sbhs to win... they have a way better tank equipment (and if you say its wrong than you actually are too stupid to use em efficiently).

but if you think its so stupid to just limit it fucking make up a better idea.

well whatever if nothing will be changed the game will die out. end of story.

[SFJake]

We really have an army of bitch here. There's a whole topic right here of ideas and solutions around it so piss off will you and go read some of it.

[RypeL]

Calm yourself Jake.

[Soldieroffate]

A Nod team full of SBH isn't supposed to be good. In fact its supposed to be terrible for Nod. If that ain't the case then thats what needs to be changed. Not something to arbitrarily limit them. Its a terrible idea.

Clearly you haven't been playing Walls very much on populated servers.

[R315r4z0r]

Limiting is a bad idea for a number of reasons. But the most prominent reasons off the top of my head would be:

-You're over complicating the game. There are dozens of infantry classes in the game. So having special parameters to use one specific one just gets people confused.

-Open limits invite griefing. They also do not discriminate between those who know what they are doing and those who don't know. If some nub is running around with a SBH and hogging the limit up, you lose the ability to get someone competent to take their place. And you can't just go "hey, kill yourself so I can be a SBH!"

-Why add new mechanics into the game when all they need to do is adjust character settings to tamper with its balance? Seems like way too much extra work that isn't necessary at all. That's like walking all the way around the block just to get to the house next door to yours.

[Glacious]

Simple solution in my eyes:

1: Limit the SBH so they can't sprint at all, or if they do, the blue glow becomes visible at all ranges until they have stopped sprinting.

2: Once they have been hit by a stray bullet or take any kind of damage be it mines or fall damage they again show the full blue glimmer at full range.

By full blue glimmer I mean as you see SBH's when they are on your team. SBH's should be a case of if your seen its game over full stop as it was more or less in the original.

[R315r4z0r]

I agree that SBHs should become more visible when sprinting. Also when they take damage is a given since that's how it was in the original game.

[goztow]

Totally agree.

[Daxter]

Simple solution in my eyes:

1: Limit the SBH so they can't sprint at all, or if they do, the blue glow becomes visible at all ranges until they have stopped sprinting.

2: Once they have been hit by a stray bullet or take any kind of damage be it mines or fall damage they again show the full blue glimmer at full range.

By full blue glimmer I mean as you see SBH's when they are on your team. SBH's should be a case of if your seen its game over full stop as it was more or less in the original.

good idea, especially nr. 2 was used in the old ren. i dont understand why the makers didnt make it like that? everyone mentions it but nothing happens duh. to nr.1: i also mentioned it in the game (make em slower in general), but of course you always receive bad reviews mostly from sbh players (and thats quite a lot)therefore i didnt mention it here, also someone already mentioned it here in the topic somewhere. goodto see that there are more mentioning that idea.

to the char. limit idea: im not a big fan of it myself but that was the only idea i recommended in the game where i only got good reviews so i mentioned it here. anyways i never had problems with limits anyways so for me it wouldnt be a problem.

and i doubt it would be confusing for others... (if so than we have a huge problem what kind of players are actually playing that game). never played star wars battlefront 2 eh? ^^

and here another idea: increase the cost of sbh OR increase the cost for nukes when a sbh wants to purchase it.

maybe decrease their health (cause of mines)?

oh and dont worry jake till the next patch i wont be playing that game anyways, 'cause right now its unplayable (and its not only cause of the crashes and sbhs in the game...).

besides i've never seen ya in popular servers? play on gdi side in a full sever and you will see what happens within 10 minutes.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

I think with Glacious' mentioned suggestions SBHs would be pretty balanced again, yes. I don't think there's any reason to give hotwires and PIC's an increased spotting range or something, they're already pretty powerful on their own.

[Glacious]

I guess the Dev's did and do look at all this we put but I think with the game crashes and vehicle lag they have more important issues than abit of game balancing at the moment.

I just think SBH's should be a class that you need to know how to use properly and that it does actually need some skill to play, as at the moment anyone can grab one, run to enemy base and plant nukes/Timed C4.

As for people moaning if changes are made to SBH's, all I can say to them is just learn to play them with abit more finesse

[R315r4z0r]

..i dont understand why the makers didnt make it like that? everyone mentions it but nothing happens duh. to nr.1: i also mentioned it in the game (make em slower in general), but of course you always receive bad reviews mostly from sbh players (and thats quite a lot)therefore i didnt mention it here, also someone already mentioned it here in the topic somewhere. goodto see that there are more mentioning that idea.

The devs didn't "choose" not to make SBH visible when they take damage. This is a beta, and it's a work in progress. The function just isn't in the game yet.

[goztow]

If the repair gun lights sbh up like it did in ren then the hottie and techy have a good weapon to spot sbh from relatively close distance.

[Daxter]

..i dont understand why the makers didnt make it like that? everyone mentions it but nothing happens duh. to nr.1: i also mentioned it in the game (make em slower in general), but of course you always receive bad reviews mostly from sbh players (and thats quite a lot)therefore i didnt mention it here, also someone already mentioned it here in the topic somewhere. goodto see that there are more mentioning that idea.

The devs didn't "choose" not to make SBH visible when they take damage. This is a beta, and it's a work in progress. The function just isn't in the game yet.

jeah jeah beta. its the only answer you always get. its a small work yet an important one (meaning the sbhs). and if i remeber correctly this was a mod for unreal tournament or something. than it changed to renegade x which is in comparrison to renegade euqipped with a better graphic. so no i still dont understand why they changed sbhs that much without thinking twice about it. also this game was in closed beta before. did NO ONE mentioned that sbhs are too powerful there? or did no one listen to the testers? and if they just didnt have the time to complete the wishes, why did open the beta?seems overrushed for me... but lets see if they change it in the new patch that will come in a month or so. hopefully there will be some gamers left that are still playing that game.

[Soldieroffate]

i also mentioned it in the game (make em slower in general), but of course you always receive bad reviews mostly from sbh players (and thats quite a lot)therefore i didnt mention it here, also someone already mentioned it here in the topic somewhere. goodto see that there are more mentioning that idea.

And I thought I was the only one that was seeing the advantageous flaws in sbhs. I remember in beta 1 of how sbhs would glitch beacons in the ref and they'd tell ya to quit crying if you caught them red-handed for it, but the reverse would happen if they had the nuke nosediving towards their ref.

Hope these flaws get ironed out fast. Because the game is just unenjoyable at times if you're on GDI with a map with no base defenses, especially without other skilled players making your life easier on your side.

[R315r4z0r]

Daxter, you're missing the point. The lack of a feature doesn't mean they designed the game not to have the feature. Until the devs say, "Hey, this is now the release version of this game" you can't assume that missing features are design choices.

They can't just make a wish and suddenly everything works like it's supposed to. Time and effort is needed to make stuff happen. Time and effort that the coders right now are more likely spending trying to fix more pressing issues... like the game crashes.

That does not mean that they won't add this feature into the game. They just haven't gotten around to it yet if they intend to do it. So unless you hear from them that they do not intend to add it, you have no reason to assume that they won't.

[djlaptop]

Daxter, you're missing the point. The lack of a feature doesn't mean they designed the game not to have the feature. Until the devs say, "Hey, this is now the release version of this game" you can't assume that missing features are design choices.

While I agree with you, when you study software engineering they teach you that all features should be in before you reach Beta phase. If 1.0 features are still forthcoming then it should be labeled an Alpha.

[DeadlyCobra]

While I agree with you, when you study software engineering they teach you that all features should be in before you reach Beta phase. If 1.0 features are still forthcoming then it should be labeled an Alpha.

I wouldn't really call most of the suggested stuff features though, more tweaks. Features I would class as big stuff such as buildings, characters and maps.

[Daxter]

i understand what ya mean R315r4z0r, dont worry. but im not talking about a missing feature. the feature had to be in the game beforehand, 'cause they copied that game and polished it with better graphics (at least that was the plab). and you call the camouflage of sbhs design choices? i doubt its just "design"...

i appreciate that this game is for free, but thats the point for me... even though they are actually doing hard work without getting money they gamers wil leave if nothing happens soon and all the hard work that went into this game is for nothing. they are working i think 4 years now on this game. of course it can happen to find bugs and glitches, and thats normal. i know some things can take a lot of time, but when you open a beta time is rare, 'cause the players are expecting a lot already ('cause a open beta is normally the last step before you finish this game). of course some things might still be called as "OP", like our beloved mcfarland. but first the game is not stable enough to be open beta (its just too soon right now), second: the sbhs arent OP anymore, they are gamebreakers and therefore are making that game almost unplayable (thats why it should be still closed beta). im hoping for the next patch to solve at least the sbh problem, otherwhise i dont see a good future for this game ( no players = no onlinegame).

sometimes good polishing on graphics and trying to reduce the amounts of bugs and glitches isnt enough to keep a game alive. sorry its the way it is. but lets just wait for the next patch. btw. is there any realease date revealed?

PS: i would recommend the gamemakers to make SMALL patches instead of BIG patches. with small patches you show the players that you are actually working on the game and make it step by step better. while big patches are making a big change to the game that most wont like at first (often 'cause they arent used to it). also due to big changes new bugs will appear. i had it in wot xbox 360 beta and trust me it sucked to have these big patches. everyone of us was already kinda pissed off there, first we had to wait so long than we had new bugs and new glitches in the game... beh...

[djlaptop]

PS: i would recommend the gamemakers to make SMALL patches instead of BIG patches. with small patches you show the players that you are actually working on the game and make it step by step better. while big patches are making a big change to the game that most wont like at first (often 'cause they arent used to it). also due to big changes new bugs will appear. i had it in wot xbox 360 beta and trust me it sucked to have these big patches. everyone of us was already kinda pissed off there, first we had to wait so long than we had new bugs and new glitches in the game... beh...

The biggest issue with lots of small patches is that the server owners will also have to install these patches. And judging by the number of people who were still running B1 servers after B2 came out, they don't seem to stay as on-top of things as we'd hope.

[Daxter]

PS: i would recommend the gamemakers to make SMALL patches instead of BIG patches. with small patches you show the players that you are actually working on the game and make it step by step better. while big patches are making a big change to the game that most wont like at first (often 'cause they arent used to it). also due to big changes new bugs will appear. i had it in wot xbox 360 beta and trust me it sucked to have these big patches. everyone of us was already kinda pissed off there, first we had to wait so long than we had new bugs and new glitches in the game... beh...

The biggest issue with lots of small patches is that the server owners will also have to install these patches. And judging by the number of people who were still running B1 servers after B2 came out, they don't seem to stay as on-top of things as we'd hope.

thats mostly because b1 is more stable than b2...

[goztow]

Does not matter. if th three major servers update that is ok.

[Blade]

I only play Nod.

Once upon a time, I had to play as filthy GDI and I found it terrifyingly easy to spot stanks. SBH's are also easy to spot if you know where they tend to lurk about.

Still, Whiteout is a tough one. SBH's are too hard to spot on Whiteout, no doubts.

However, if you manage to sneak a stank into the enemy base on Walls without getting noticed, it's all their fault.

[djlaptop]

I only play Nod.

Once upon a time, I had to play as filthy GDI and I found it terrifyingly easy to spot stanks. SBH's are also easy to spot if you know where they tend to lurk about.

Still, Whiteout is a tough one. SBH's are too hard to spot on Whiteout, no doubts.

However, if you manage to sneak a stank into the enemy base on Walls without getting noticed, it's all their fault.

On WhiteOut it's not just SBH's! I drive stanks right square-center into the GDI base past infantry and vehicles and they have no idea.

[g1real]

I only play Nod.

Once upon a time, I had to play as filthy GDI and I found it terrifyingly easy to spot stanks. SBH's are also easy to spot if you know where they tend to lurk about.

Still, Whiteout is a tough one. SBH's are too hard to spot on Whiteout, no doubts.

However, if you manage to sneak a stank into the enemy base on Walls without getting noticed, it's all their fault.

Yes yes, it's always the excuse that the enemy needs to l2p when something is unbalanced, this happens in almost any PvP game.

Statistics don't lie that Nod just has a severe advantage right now over GDI with stealth being as it is. It's incredibly easy to sneak into a base undetected.

[Blade]

Yes yes, it's always the excuse that the enemy needs to l2p when something is unbalanced, this happens in almost any PvP game.

Statistics don't lie that Nod just has a severe advantage right now over GDI with stealth being as it is. It's incredibly easy to sneak into a base undetected.

You included me in that statistic. I only play Nod. Leaving does not count as winning, does it? Even if it doesn't count as losing, I usually just drive around Humvees and try to drift.

Also, GDI absolutely has ohhh so many tactics of controlling or even preventing SBH whoring from happening.

I would agree on an SBH limit though. Having 12 SBH's and getting either your or their base blown up shucks.

[R315r4z0r]

...I only play Nod...

...Also, GDI absolutely has ohhh so many tactics of controlling or even preventing SBH whoring from happening.

So... how exactly would you know about GDI's capabilities if you only play Nod?

[Truxa]

Pretty funny to say that GDI has so many tactics to prevent SBH from whoring the base, but if it takes more than half of GDI's team to prevent all those SBHs, Nod doens't realy have to defend their base!

Fine, GDI has a good chance of defending against SBHs, but in the mean time, no chance at all to win the game by destroying the Nod base (because of teh lack of offensive capabilities maybe?)

[Eagle XI]

The only real solution would be to limit one nuke can be placed and become active at a time, however everyone can still carry one if they want. Which alone would change how the game is played now dramatically, since spamming beacons overall a building and hope you can keep em busy during the initial carnage long enough is pretty much the only viable tactic to win.

[R315r4z0r]

No limits. Not on SBHs, not on super weapons, nothing. The only limits this game should have are:

1. Mine limits.

2. Vehicle limits.

3. Time limits.

That's it.

Cloaks just need to be more visible. They need to flicker when shot and they need to visibly distort when moving quickly. That's all they need to do to them.

[RokumanZA]

No limits. Not on SBHs, not on super weapons, nothing. The only limits this game should have are:

1. Mine limits.

2. Vehicle limits.

3. Time limits.

That's it.

Cloaks just need to be more visible. They need to flicker when shot and they need to visibly distort when moving quickly. That's all they need to do to them.

^^ This exactly

[Truxa]

I agree with you R315, I totally do!

But I also think that there is merit to the 1 super weapon at a time idea. Thinking about it when GDI has only 1 space ion cannon satalite in space, it's weird that it can charge and shoot multiple times within just a few seconds. Same with Nod nuke and silo's. While it is possible to have multiple nuke silo's build at the same time, it's plain OP if GDI gets limitted and Nod isnt. Lets just assume Nod only has 1 nuke silo.

A suggestion:

While the ion/nuke cannot shoot multiple times during a few seconds, perhaps it would be a nice thought that while many people can place beacons, the 60 second countdown timer starts for the next beacon when 1 beacon goes off or is disarmed.

It allows for multiple deployments but not multiple destructions.

[yosh56]

Pretty funny to say that GDI has so many tactics to prevent SBH from whoring the base, but if it takes more than half of GDI's team to prevent all those SBHs, Nod doens't realy have to defend their base!

Fine, GDI has a good chance of defending against SBHs, but in the mean time, no chance at all to win the game by destroying the Nod base (because of teh lack of offensive capabilities maybe?)

That way of thinking is exactly why GDI teams have a tendency to fail. Everyone THINKS that half of the team should be defending, when in reality you hurt Nod more if their SBHs can't get coordinated enough because there's constantly pressure in their base. And this is coming from an almost purely GDI player.

Whiteout, for example, is a haven for stealth units. Every single time I've won as GDI on Whiteout, it's because GDI actually did what they're SUPPOSED to be good at: that's fielding generic 'do-it-all' tanks (I'm talking Meds not Mammoths), backed up by Anti air, a Hotwire or 2 to make sure that it isn't super easy to just arty whore the tanks to death, and leaving maybe 5 or so people back in base to keep an eye on mines and nukes.

If you just sit back and defend EVENTUALLY Nod's going to have all the time in the world to get coordinated, and coordinated sbh's are what's deadly. Of course, it's hard to get coordinated if you know you can't get away with having 5 people be sbhs, because you HAVE to do something to keep your base alive. People seem to completely forget that owning the field, and always forcing the enemy base to be under attack is part of -controlling- the enemy. Yes you need to defend, but in the words of some guy a few hundred or thousand years ago, "the best defense is a good offense."

In short, there's a reason I bitch at GDI teams that have THREE vehicles on Islands when we're already 10 minutes into the game. It's inexcusable to not field your greatest assets, then complain about the enemy using theirs. That's not to say I don't think SBH's don't need any tweaks (flash when shot please?), but even if they were nerfed the current mindset of most scared GDI teams means that they would still "be OP".

TL;DR : If you sit around, waiting to get nuked or C4'd to death, then yes... you will probably get nuked or C4'd to death. The 12 people in base may disarm 20 nukes, but if you gave Nod the time to coordinate planting 21 then... GG.

[Daxter]

If you just sit back and defend EVENTUALLY Nod's going to have all the time in the world to get coordinated, and coordinated sbh's are what's deadly. Of course, it's hard to get coordinated if you know you can't get away with having 5 people be sbhs, because you HAVE to do something to keep your base alive. People seem to completely forget that owning the field, and always forcing the enemy base to be under attack is part of -controlling- the enemy. Yes you need to defend, but in the words of some guy a few hundred or thousand years ago, "the best defense is a good offense."

In short, there's a reason I bitch at GDI teams that have THREE vehicles on Islands when we're already 10 minutes into the game. It's inexcusable to not field your greatest assets, then complain about the enemy using theirs. That's not to say I don't think SBH's don't need any tweaks (flash when shot please?), but even if they were nerfed the current mindset of most scared GDI teams means that they would still "be OP".

to ya first: nope, never heard of guerilla? works on renegade too, especially on the old one. while the front appears to be near your base no one will be guarding their base (or almost no one), so you can just sneak in and destroy something. the map "walls" is a perfect example. for nod its of course way easier than for gdi.

to ya second: oh jea lets drive that ultra slow mammoth tank where even a simple flame soldier can kill that tank. or how about the med that doesnt have the punch to kill somethiong and aims like a drunken bitch on ecstacy. compared to the old game the meds here suck like hell, wich is pity, 'cause its gdi's main tank. if the arty driver isnt dumb as hell he will win a 1 vs. 1 fight against a med.

apc is at least something, but he is a bit too weak i have the feeling. mrls vs. arty: normally the arty wins, cause mrls cant hide anymore when the arty shot already, it will hit the mrls almost instantly, while the arty can easily hide from the missiles of the mrls. but its at least a good anti air tank (on walls its still easy to kill a mrls with an apche though).

[Truxa]

On top of what Daxter wrote:

With small games (e.g. 12v12) (sorry, had that in mind when writing previous comment) 5 defenders IS half your team.

On a 40-man-server, (20v20) 5 is considered half your team because there are 5 actively attacking and the rest (10) slacking around, running around, camping with snipers and what not.

[yosh56]

With small games (e.g. 12v12) (sorry, had that in mind when writing previous comment) 5 defenders IS half your team.

On a 40-man-server, (20v20) 5 is considered half your team because there are 5 actively attacking and the rest (10) slacking around, running around, camping with snipers and what not.

Currently, since most servers that are left are 40p, it's generally just assumed that you're talking 20v20. Obviously in 12v12 numbers are going to be stretched thin period. An 11 vehicles rush is only half your team in a 40p server, but obviously that's virtually the entire team in a 12v12. The number of people is a moot point right now, however, as 40p is currently just a standard.

As for 5 people being 'considered' half of the team, that's an assumption that the entire rest of your team is just retarded. You will always have lone wolves, but the percentage of them varies just as much. If a large part of the team isn't really talking (except about sbh's) then of course most people are either going to be just doing their own thing, and not being much of any kind of productive, or needlessly worrying about SBH's, when there'd be less of them on the field if GDI was providing even the least bit of pressure to make Nod actually have to CHOOSE to go SBH.

If you just sit back and defend EVENTUALLY Nod's going to have all the time in the world to get coordinated, and coordinated sbh's are what's deadly. Of course, it's hard to get coordinated if you know you can't get away with having 5 people be sbhs, because you HAVE to do something to keep your base alive.

to ya first: nope, never heard of guerilla? works on renegade too, especially on the old one. while the front appears to be near your base no one will be guarding their base (or almost no one), so you can just sneak in and destroy something. the map "walls" is a perfect example. for nod its of course way easier than for gdi.

So out of curiosity, where in there did I say that pressuring Nod was going to completely stop having SBHs You're talking to one of the best infiltrators in this game; I know it's easy to slip by a front-line that's in your base. However, 1 sbh isn't a threat (assuming you still have people in your base). If Nod gets a tech through then... bravo. Even 2 sbhs are only a minor threat to 5 people that are both sbh-checking and watching their mine-count. The point is, coordination rarely happens when there's a Mammoth's barrel poking into the front of the HON (granted, that's a horrible place to put a Mammoth, but you should get the point.)

Whiteout, for example, is a haven for stealth units. Every single time I've won as GDI on Whiteout, it's because GDI actually did what they're SUPPOSED to be good at: that's fielding generic 'do-it-all' tanks (I'm talking Meds not Mammoths), backed up by Anti air, a Hotwire or 2 to make sure that it isn't super easy to just arty whore the tanks to death, and leaving maybe 5 or so people back in base to keep an eye on mines and nukes.

to ya second: oh jea lets drive that ultra slow mammoth tank where even a simple flame soldier can kill that tank. or how about the med that doesnt have the punch to kill somethiong and aims like a drunken bitch on ecstacy. compared to the old game the meds here suck like hell, wich is pity, 'cause its gdi's main tank. if the arty driver isnt dumb as hell he will win a 1 vs. 1 fight against a med.

To the blue text: Umm, stick to reality in an argument. Plzkthx

The Medium tank has more than enough punch... and it aims just fine. Literally, I just tested it to make sure, in first-person view it shoots just a bit to the right and below the middle of the crosshair. It's about as hard to adjust for as the arc on the arty. Actually, it's not even close to being as hard to adjust to that in all honesty. A Med also kills an arty in 7-hits vs an arty's 9 to kill a Med. Now if we're going to talk about whether the arty driver is smart, why not also talk about whether the Med driver is also competent? If they're both equal and in a fair fight(Eg, both have/don't have cover, and neither/both are teched/hottied), then the Med wins by default. Hell, my general suggestion to most people is to just rush the hell out of artys( assuming they're in range and can't just kite away). They can't outrun a Med, and if they're not being repaired they're likely going to lose the confrontation.

That brings me to the next point, you keep bringing up 1v1s, which if GDI (and Nod) is actually fielding groups of tanks, then that should never happen. Hardware-wise, GDI can still overrun Nod easily in the field, but only after people realize that Mammoth overkill just makes it impossible for every other vehicle to actually be mobile. Meds are still just as good as they were in Renegade as far as I can tell; they handle a little bit differently, but I got used to it over the course of a few games, and now I have a 1st person view to make it even easier to fight on hills. If anything, I think they're buffed, but mostly in an opinionated way. I've driven them enough in Ren and RenX to at least know they're definitely no worse than they've ever been. So long as GDI is smart enough to field Hotwires, their metal war-machine usually runs over Nod.... assuming the drivers CAN aim, and focus down targets.

And finally, that brings me to something that I already touched on earlier: GDI never seems to mass vehicles EXCEPT on Field. It seems like Field is the only map where it's OBVIOUS that you should have tanks in this giant field. Walls, Islands, Whiteout; they all seem to have small tank battles, but for the most part, there's always a massive amount of infantry/snipers and the occasional vehicle used for defense on GDI. All of the games where I've noted this, Nod fails epically... several times. Eventually however, they DO win, all for the shear sake that GDI was so busy not contesting them on the hill, or on the sides, that eventually when one or 2 people DO finally grab tanks, it seems hopeless because they get melted by the mass of artillery that ALWAYS seems to make it to the hill.

That all brings us back to the fact that pressure controls a team. Of course people are going to GET OUT of the base, but would you rather have 3 sbhs on the field, that aren't even that coordinated, or 7 systematically C4ing and nuking simultaneously?

As stated, I generally never see GDI lose when they actually drop the armor heavy on Nod. Sure, they may lose a building to a nuke, but trading the GDI Refinery for Nod's HON, Ref, and possibly PP? EZ.

SBH's are Nod's deadliest tool, second to Stanks... which are horrifying when coordinated and successful. GDI's is, was, and always will be the fact that, skill depending, they can run over Nod in the field, assuming they aren't dumb enough to only field a minimal number of vehicles.

TL;DR(but somewhat different) : GDI still makes it harder on themselves when they camp. At least, if they camp against a halfway competent Nod team that doesn't just feed them points.

[Daxter]

So out of curiosity, where in there did I say that pressuring Nod was going to completely stop having SBHs

i never said sbhs would stop then. you said gdi should always attack 'cause attack is the best defence yadda yadda, so i said that you can also play guerilla style, meaning: while 80% or so defend the base, the others are sneaking in and destroying a building. never mentioned it would stop sbhs...

to the blue text you marked: i saw it...

to the med vs. arty: god damn it dont let those two tanks face on FLAT GROUND WITHIN 10 METRES -.-. this comparrison you made is useless therefore. a good arty player will never face a med on 10 metres. he will face the med far away shooting on him already while the med has to drive to the arty to finally hit it. hills and trees can be quite annoying for the med too while arty can, even missing the med with its shot, can do splash damage. the splash damage of the med is, well kind of a joke.

besides i drove a lot the lighty and med on the old ren. they are more than different! if you dont see the differences play the old game again. oh besides gdi tanks arent stronger than nod tanks. arties can kill everything so far, if someone comes near them a good flamertank burns everything to death. apaches are also better then orcas, even though the do the same max. damage, the orcaplayer has to aim perfectly to do max damage, while the apache can "spray" his shots and can still do a lot of damage.

this leads us to the final question of yours: why doesnt anyone use tanks besides on field?

i can answer that question for ya.

what does field has that other maps dont have? an obelisc! you cant simply kill that thing with a hottie or so. it would also require a lot of luck to kill it with a good gunnerrush. via tunnel you cant really kill a building other than with gunners and / or spies. so the only way to get through are tanks (especially for newbies).

to the reason why no one wants to use a tank:

here the tanks i personally find useable (therefore dont need a nerf or buff):

mrls / arty

flametank (only a bit weak against characters, the rest is fine)

apache / orca (orca just needs the same missiles apache has)

apc

lets look at the snipers. e.g. if nod comes up with 5 saks gdi has to try to kill em somehow, so mostly a lot of havocs appear. if one team overweights the snipers the other team will try to use more snipers and so on... at the end it often appears that every second player has a sniper or a raver / pic ( they can be used as middle sniper and tankkiller). in the old game it also was like that but there were more players so that the other 50% were the ones using tanks or hotties on field.

therefore "when" something like that happens (and it happens kinda often) you can threw orcas / apaches, mrls / arties, buggies / humvees in the garbage.

lighties and meds , well why using them? you always have to face pics / ravers not mrls, other normal tanks or so anymore. so they can be pretty useless too. beside the fact that nod has the flamertank wich can be an instantkiller against meds if used right (and its not difficult to use it correctly). also for what do ya want to use it??? in the past they were often used because: they were simply better in all ways (its the way it is), more players were in the server which means more tanks on field that the med or lighty can shoot at, meds / lighties leaves a shell when getting destroyed => med / lighty rush via shellfamring at base.

to the map walls (which is the only map right now that looks almost the same as the old one): the past ren didnt have such strong apaches / orcas therefore it wasnt THAT dangerous driving out with ya tank. if a tank faces an orca /apache on ren x he will be killed within 10 seconds.

the mammy just sucks, there is nothing more to say. the only good tank left is the apc and it is used kinda often for rushes e.g.. to the orcas / apaches: you will still see a lot of them (of course not on field but on other maps) but mostly they will just explode in the air, newbies just need some time to see when its time not to use a certain vehicle anymore ^^.

...im still for a char limit, it would even increase the gameplay and solce almost every problem if doing it right...

[yosh56]

to the blue text you marked: i saw it...

I've seen a humm-vee rush destroy 3/4 of Nod's base. That doesn't mean a rare instance like that can be stated as if it's a common fact that happens all of the time.

to the med vs. arty: god damn it dont let those two tanks face on FLAT GROUND WITHIN 10 METRES -.-. this comparrison you made is useless therefore. a good arty player will never face a med on 10 metres. he will face the med far away shooting on him already while the med has to drive to the arty to finally hit it.

That's just called being a good driver. You don't fight battles you know you're going to lose, e.g fighting an arty that can kite you. That's why you either have multiple meds rush an art, or find a way to kill the distance and force them to your fighting terms. The comparison is not useless... I kill arty players that 'think' they're smart all of the time. The Med is still a powerhouse; it's just a generic, not-so-clear powerhouse like it even was in Ren. It also hasn't been THAT long since I played the original Ren, and that's why I could make the comparison. About the only real difference is the fact that I can't vehicle sprint in original Renegade.

besides i drove a lot the lighty and med on the old ren. they are more than different! if you dont see the differences play the old game again. oh besides gdi tanks arent stronger than nod tanks. arties can kill everything so far, if someone comes near them a good flamertank burns everything to death. apaches are also better then orcas, even though the do the same max. damage, the orcaplayer has to aim perfectly to do max damage, while the apache can "spray" his shots and can still do a lot of damage.

Ummm, basic hardware-wise, yes GDI is stronger. Situation-wise, they may not always be able to come out on top, but basically 'YES' they are.

Again, we're assuming that there's a flame tank sitting around the corner of every arty. I've literally seen this happen 2-3 times since RenX was released. Flames have a tendency to get used just for trying to break sieges, and actually rushing. Lone flame tanks generally just get baited and raped by a decent GDI team.

Can't argue with Apaches being better than Orcas.. though the tactic of humping still works if you can sneak up on them.

this leads us to the final question of yours: why doesnt anyone use tanks besides on field?

i can answer that question for ya.

what does field has that other maps dont have? an obelisc! you cant simply kill that thing with a hottie or so. it would also require a lot of luck to kill it with a good gunnerrush. via tunnel you cant really kill a building other than with gunners and / or spies. so the only way to get through are tanks (especially for newbies).

Again, Field is just where people OBVIOUSLY use tanks. The reason I bitch at people is because a well compositioned mass of armor is just as, if not more, effective on other maps. Hell, Islands is often won with masses of GDI tanks that actually rush.

lets look at the snipers. e.g. if nod comes up with 5 saks gdi has to try to kill em somehow, so mostly a lot of havocs appear. if one team overweights the snipers the other team will try to use more snipers and so on... at the end it often appears that every second player has a sniper or a raver / pic ( they can be used as middle sniper and tankkiller). in the old game it also was like that but there were more players so that the other 50% were the ones using tanks or hotties on field.

therefore "when" something like that happens (and it happens kinda often) you can threw orcas / apaches, mrls / arties, buggies / humvees in the garbage.

... Last I checked, Sakuras/Havocs were pretty useless against armor, and the more of them there are, the easier it is for heavy armor to do their thing. Ravs/Pics though; I've been preaching since Renegade that mass PICs can take the field faster than Lights/arts/meds, or any vehicle.

There were more players in the old game? Umm, we're pllaying on 40person servers, and a good chunk of the servers on vanilla Ren were 12v12s and around that number. Invalid, unless you suddenly decided that we're going to factor in 128 player and 64 player games.

the past ren didnt have such strong apaches / orcas therefore it wasnt THAT dangerous driving out with ya tank. if a tank faces an orca /apache on ren x he will be killed within 10 seconds.

Truth, but if you have a half-way competent team they'll have AA. Hell, if you have a Havoc-spamming team you'll have AA. Well, assuming you don't have a bunch of idiots that DON'T 'waste' their ammo on Apaches, and instead just go for KDR. That's a player issue though, not a game one.

In short, 20v20 is more than enough for GDI to be able to field a decent armor composition that even incorporates a mammoth or 2 (say what you will, but a Mammoth with Hotwires is still a helluva damage-soaker). Again, I've bore witness to it more than enough times to know it's true. Unless GDI just plain gets outplayed in the tank battles, they'res going to be a lower occurrence of SBH activity and more-than-likely a win of some sort, if they actually learn to use what they're good at... and learn to use it properly. There is something to be said about not going full wetard in a vehicle, then assuming it's a hopeless effort.

And no... a character limit is beyond game-changing... and that also starts us down a slippery slope towards OTHER things suddenly being limited. What those are would remain to be seen.

Again, coming from a mostly-GDI player and a GDI player who actually has a higher win% with GDI than Nod.

[Daxter]

fuck it its too tiresome for me to answer everything just for you, i wont spend another hour for this. we cant change the game anyway, its up to the producers.

to the playerlimits on the old ren: never played 12 vs. 12, i played on the mpf server which had i think 64 players (32 for each team).

here my final statement: right now we dont have the players for you tactics anyway, we dont have the players who know how to use tanks or / and characters. we dont have the players wo are willing to play teamplay, so it will take a lot of time till that happens. so AFTER it happened that we have more than 50 % good players on each team we can discuss again about the tactics.

and im still for the char. limit (at least one server should have it as a test, that would be nice), with nice ideas of how to make it fair and interesting. soon we would have more tanks on field, less snipers and pics / havocs but more hotties and other char. sometimes just testing something brings ya further than thinking about it... it doesnt mean it should be in al server, i just would like to test it on a normal vanilla server, but right now i guess the gameproducers have more problems...

[whowhere]

here an idea how to stop that sbh rush that comes up in almost every match: sbhs should be limited. 10 players = 1 sbh. e.g. if nod has 40 players, nod can have 4 sbhs in its team.

Good idea. 4 SBHs could still win a game for you though. I see some servers have increased the price for the SBH to 550. Took me by surprise but then when you think about it you're now paying £1500 for the chance to kill a building that might not actually work. If GDI are constantly killing your harvester, it isn't easy to get that much money.

[DeadlyCobra]

Here is a crazy idea: add a scanner onto the humvee which decloaks SBH's within a certain distance. This would allow a defensive team mate to drive around looking for them.