SBH Nukes

[darksider282]

Are not inherently overpowered. They play perfectly into Nod's general style of subterfuge. Since Nod lacks the vehicular punch of GDI, they are a vital asset on many maps.

However some questions about balance are raised by a couple of telling observations. I'd be curious to see some actual numbers to back this up, but I've noticed a couple of interesting things:

1) On maps with no base defenses, many players switch teams to Nod immediately on start. I feel like I don't see this on maps with base defenses.

2) On maps with no base defenses it seems like almost every building Nod destroys is with an SBH nuke. At the very least, the first building or two often goes down that way, which tips the balance to Nod's favor. The overwhelming (and successful) usage of a single tactic suggests to me that this tactic, while perhaps not unbalanced, needs to be examined thoroughly. I certainly don't remember this being the case in the old Renegade.

As I said above, I don't think this means they are necessarily overpowered. But, in a few cases, some quirks of map design lead them to being more powerful than they should be. There are a couple of spots (particularly, the Weapons Factory and Power Plant) where a beacon can be placed that is very difficult to disarm. These are places that it is difficult to get to physically. The SBH has the luxury of taking their time to get to these perfect spots, while the defenders do not. Too often I have seen 4 or 5 engineers/hotwires stare at a beacon as it counts down, unable to get to it. To me, that's a problem. An SBH nuke should be successful because of skill, timing, and coordination. Not being able to stick it in a hard to reach place.

Additionally, and this applies to both teams, some of the new maps (Gold Rush) have base layouts which are quite large, which makes it much harder to find and disarm a beacon within the time. Perhaps a longer timer on these maps is in order?

[omega79]

if i remember right on maps with no BD Nod always did nuke a lot ...

specialy on islands, volcano and walls ...

on complex and canyon flamerushs or stankrushs were very common ..

i guess we have to wait for those and then we see that not on ALL maps

without BD Nod nukes GDI off the map.

for the teamswiching ... i think that should be disabled, like in classic renegade ...

and you should always put on the same team after you reconnect (include a credit save)

that could be done with steam ID ... if people know about that benefit they would use steam aswell ...

[darksider282]

They did always nuke a lot, yes, but it wasn't the *only* tactic being used. I remember plenty of games on those maps ending in Flame Rushes or Stank Rushes or what have you. I feel like the proportion has shifted to where SBH nukes are pretty much the only thing being used. Case in point: they'll try rush after rush after rush until GDI is ahead on points, but they still keep going with it rather than try something else. In the old days, handing that many points to GDI for disarming the beacons would get you flamed off the server.

[Terekhov]

As I said above, I don't think this means they are necessarily overpowered. But, in a few cases, some quirks of map design lead them to being more powerful than they should be. There are a couple of spots (particularly, the Weapons Factory and Power Plant) where a beacon can be placed that is very difficult to disarm. These are places that it is difficult to get to physically. The SBH has the luxury of taking their time to get to these perfect spots, while the defenders do not. Too often I have seen 4 or 5 engineers/hotwires stare at a beacon as it counts down, unable to get to it. To me, that's a problem. An SBH nuke should be successful because of skill, timing, and coordination. Not being able to stick it in a hard to reach place.

Additionally, and this applies to both teams, some of the new maps (Gold Rush) have base layouts which are quite large, which makes it much harder to find and disarm a beacon within the time. Perhaps a longer timer on these maps is in order?

The war factory especially needs fixed. Like you said, the SBH has time where the repairers do not; perhaps the little drop-down spots on the WF roof should be removed or invisible slopes placed there. Power plant seems alright to me.

The GDI PP on Goldrush though: needs to be fixed. Let infantry go behind it from one side to another, or don't let them behind it at all.

[PermaGrin]

Once more get used to the game and the mechanic and "Dos and Donts", you will see SBH become more of a negative impact on a team (Nod) than people realize.

This mainly applies to time based games.

SBHs can get over confident in their ability to place and defend a nuke.

So you end up with either...

a) SBH dying while trying to reach their target, thus losing out on 1400 bones very death.

b) SBH being unable to successfully protect the beacon, thus resulting the enemy gaining points and credits.

*I can recall many games with people yelling at teammates that keep trying to nuke unsuccessfully, ha*

As mention, in a time based game, "giving" points away can turn out to be not very helpful.

In the case of "un-reach-able" beacons, sadly that should just be brought to our attention (a screenshot of the location) and possibly just fixed through the game itself. Currently the beacon seems to be placed at your feet and then it drops straight down on to the first thing is hits. This can result in getting beacons into unforeseen places.

[Terekhov]

Perhaps with incompetent SBHs, but if you have even one good SBH pair on say, Whiteout, the game goes like this:

1. C4 rush ref -> dead

2. Nuke PP and WF at the same time. -> One dies

3. Stank nuke bar or whichever didn't die in #2 -> dead

4. One building left, gg.

I've personally done this with friends (text, no TS etc for coordination) at least a dozen times; it's easy with some experience and skill.

If SBHs couldn't use WF ledges, then I'd say it's fair - a good defense could prevent most of the above if WF/PP step didn't happen, and C4 rushes are an ever-present risk that must be taken into account. Then it just turns into who's better at offense/defense.

[darksider282]

It could just be as simple as the ledges. Especially on a map like Whiteout, once GDI loses the WF it's very hard to ever get back on the offensive. Eliminate this one oversight, and perhaps balance will be restored.

I agree with your point about a good defense, and that's always been part of the game. I just found myself frustrated after watching a good defense end in 5 engineers staring at a beacon they couldn't reach.

[Terekhov]

Yep, I'm pretty sure WF ledges is all that needs fixed now that beacons drop at feet. Oh and of course, airdropping people onto refineries is a problem that I believe still occurs.

[Valor]

They play perfectly into Nod's general style of subterfuge. Since Nod lacks the vehicular punch of GDI, they are a vital asset on many maps

This idealism just makes the game very unbalanced depending on whether the map has base defenses. It would be obvious that if this were the case, GDI would always win whenever there are base defenses since Nod essentially has no advantage. Case in point, how many Field games have been won by Nod in Ren X?

Thus in Renegade the devs made the artillery very powerful, enough to stand against GDI vehicles. Unfortunately it was a bit too powerful and it made GDI tanks look bad in comparison. As a result, in the original Ren Nod won more often on maps with base defenses.

But Ren X players like to play defenseless maps. Just look at the leaderboard, Nod has much higher win % than GDI. It wasn't this bad in the original Ren.

What the Ren X devs wanted to do is exactly what was in the quote, that is make sure GDI has better vehicular firepower and Nod focuses on stealth. Thus they buffed the sbh (possibly unintentionally), nerfed the artillery, and buffed GDI vehicles.

It sort of backfired because the game is less balanced now.

Jelly server has increased the price of sbh to 1000 due to the sprint feature and the lower view distance.

[omega79]

there stil a lot people whoa re very new ...

maybe thats a reason aswell ... they just do not know any advanced tactics ...

i see a lot of engies repairing destroyed buildings ...

and a lot questions why not doing certain things ...

this may change ...

[sterps]

I believe the only thing that needs to be changed with sbh and stanks is the distance at which infantry and vehicles see them. In Renegade you could definitely spot stealth units from further away. I have had games in renegade x on walls and whiteout where I led 7 stanks into their base passing right next to 5 vehicles in different locations along the way to the GDI's base. Not one stank was spotted. We killed the entire base. Sbh are even easier to evade detection, I can run right past enemy inffantry and not get spotted sometimes. In renegade stealth units were more careful to not get spotted. If this was amended I think the situation would improve.

That being said, nothing else needs to change about sbh, nuking was the same in ren.

And valor for the last time, artys have not been nerfed. The arch is a characteristic of artillery, after all artillery is an indirect method of firepower. Renegade contradicted this and contributed to them being OP

[Terekhov]

sterps, I think it has more to do with Renegade X's fancier graphics and new people not paying attention than the actual detection distance.

[R315r4z0r]

There needs to be a better stealth reveal system. The brightness of the stealth effect blends in with the brightness of a lot of maps. Walls and Whiteout are two examples of maps where it's almost impossible to see a stealth unit standing right in front of you just because the stealth effect just blends in so well with the environment. Oh Whiteout in particular, I see stealth tanks crushing infantry INSIDE GDI's base on a constant basis... because no one can see them when they enter the main entrance. Even if you're specifically looking for them.

When you land a shot on a unit that is stealth, there needs to be a bright and visible flash to show their position to other people. Atm, you just get a hitmarker and that only helps you... your team just thinks you're shooting at nothing.

[Terekhov]

I don't know about a flash; making the skin you see when up close visible everywhere when they get hit should probably be sufficient. Most semi-intelligent teammates will realize when you're chasing something and fire along with you, vs random firing.

I've stopped using SBH as much, but I still don't want a gimme as a hotwire; needs to be a challenge, something fun to do while chasing around mines.

[R315r4z0r]

It flashed in the original Renegade. Plus if it just becomes it's "normal" visibility, then it will still be stupidly hard to see on bright maps.

Regarding random firing... not necessarily. Many people just fire their weapon randomly in their base when they have nothing to do. I see it happen all the time.

[Terekhov]

Maybe the solution could be to make it more of a blue hue?

Me too, but 90% of the time I can tell from a glance whether they're chasing or just firing.

[omega79]

if I remember correct Hotwires and Moebius units were able to see stealthunits a little better than regular GDI units... in classic renegade

not to forget that in classic renegade stealthunits did kinda flash or blink if they got hit by any projectile, if they got in contact with tiberium of any kind or took any damage... that is totaly missing in renegade-x so far

stanks had to avoid tiberium fields like infantery ...

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=73238#p128075

[Valor]

if I remember correct Hotwires and Moebius units were able to see stealthunits a little better than regular GDI units... in classic renegade

Is this true?

[Tactix]

Most of the time, SBHs are completely useless.

Waiting for a guy to get out of his tank, waiting for an opportunity to infiltrate base.

You spend 80% of the time looking for an opportunity, an opening, a good timing.

That time is spent doing absolutely nothing while GDI is smashing away at your team.

SBHs are not overpowered. The cloaking system is fine, a STank can be seen from a billion miles away.

The only map where they could be considered overpowered is Lakeside.

[Cricket]

Most of the time, SBHs are completely useless.

Depends on the team and how well defense is holding up.

Takes just 3 coordinated SBHs to slip in and hit a building silently with their C4. Completely silent compared to 1 brave soul, a beacon, and a burning desire to contribute to his team. That is, if the enemy defense can be breached efficiently and quickly.

Also, you can't not deny that stalking tanks in the open for an opportunity hijack isn't fun as hell.

[goztow]

When you land a shot on a unit that is stealth, there needs to be a bright and visible flash to show their position to other people. Atm, you just get a hitmarker and that only helps you... your team just thinks you're shooting at nothing.

A shot on a sbh should at least have some visible effect, I agree.

[Soldieroffate]

The reason why SBH is so inherently powerful in this game is his general graphic. In the old Ren, if he took damage or shot his weapon, he would stick out like a sore thumb in any map and any sniper looking in his direction will take a shot at him. That or his position gets shot up with every weapon pointed at his general positon.

Not in this game though; he's very difficult to see even up close, and damaging him doesn't disrupt his cloak as much as it used to. I've played many instances as SBH where I got away even after under heavy attack; that wasn't the case in the old game. You get spotted, you die.

And like r315r4z0r said, teammates can't really help you since from their point of view, you're shooting at nothing. At least until the Noddie's health goes red.

[iran]

There are no issues with the visibility of stealth units; we should be looking at the currently emasculated airstrikes which hurts both teams badly when they are defending their base. With the incapability of holding off sieges at the moment, and the ease with which the enemy team reinforces the siege.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Don't stealth units glow blue while being stealthed? This contradics the camouflage stealth units are using on whiteout. But they're still very hard to see.

Also, mine the WF ramp. If you place 5 mines there i'm pretty sure any group of SBH's would get spotted or killed before they reach the top.

Hmm, a nuke is placed. Are the mines on the WF ramp still there? Yes, don't waste any time looking there. No, get up there and find it! Also, if you're driving an orca, don't be shy to scan your base for enemy presence. You have a height advantage and you should use it well!

[itjo4u934875]

Dont forget original Renegade has much more cheater and Renegade X is new, so many people dont know how to play it. The longer i play renegade x the more hotties come to disarm nuke and they play much better than the noobs some weeks ago....

[Generalcamo]

Doesn't solve the fact that stealth units are hard to see. Most of the people on this thread have been playing Renegade for years. And they are the ones complaining.

[omega79]

I played renegade for years, since the first day of the demo ...

I think SBH and stanks are good as they are ...

only Hotwires, mobius and i think PIC should see SBH a little better than the rest of GDI

and Stealthunits should Flicker their blue shiny skin when hit, or take damage

in classic renegade, on snowmaps SBH was harder to see aswell ... like mesa ...

[R315r4z0r]

The current stealth effect is not fine. It works, and I guess that's what is important, but it's usefulness varies from map to map.

Whiteout, Nod wins 90% of the time because a SBH or Stealth tank has to have surprise butt sex with unsuspecting GDI players before they can be seen.

In the original Renegade, there was only a few locations on maps where stealth units had a camouflage advantage (such as the overlook path over the Tiberium field on Under. But there was never an entire map so bright where you couldn't see a SBH standing in front of you.

Also, in the original Renegade, if you were unsure if you see a SBH, you could just fire a couple rounds to check the spot and the SBH would light up if they got hit. In Renegade X, if they are hit, nothing happens besides you getting a hitmarker. They still stay cloaked and can easily escape.

Renegade balance logic does not apply to Renegade X regarding stealth units. They work the same and have the same capabilities, but that doesn't mean they are the same. The environments in Renegade X engulf stealth effects a good portion of the time, making them harder then they should be to see.

You shouldn't have to search for a stealth unit in order to see it. If they get close to you, it should be blatantly obvious. But at the moment if you're not really looking for one, they can waltz right by you undetected.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

There are a couple of spots (particularly, the Weapons Factory and Power Plant) where a beacon can be placed that is very difficult to disarm. These are places that it is difficult to get to physically

Why don't you tell us these spots, go into detail to their exact location, and then we can compare notes?

Also, I remember this being EXACTLY like it was in old Renegade. Beacons being a tipping point for the outcome of a battle.

[omega79]

i do not agree with you ...

I think it is fine and the only changes needed i posted in above

[iran]

if I remember correct Hotwires and Moebius units were able to see stealthunits a little better than regular GDI units... in classic renegade

Is this true?

Yes.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Doesn't solve the fact that stealth units are hard to see.

what the fuck man? They're STEALTHED, they are supposed to be hard to see.

[R315r4z0r]

Doesn't solve the fact that stealth units are hard to see.

what the fuck man? They're STEALTHED, they are supposed to be hard to see.

From far away. When they get into close range, they should be obvious.

Also, I can also attest to there being at least one spot on top of the WF that is really hard to disarm beacons that are planted there. This spot was not as advantages in the original game. Basically, on the lower roof of the WF, were the smoke stacks are. The way that it's designed in Renegade X, there are a lot of awkward collisions up there making it hard to navigate around the ramp and the stacks. The devs have tried to address this by adding blocker volumes, but players are still finding ways to plant beacons behind the blocker volumes. This, obviously, makes it an extremely annoying task to disarm.

One time I managed to disarm a beacon that was planted in such a way that the only way to shoot it with the repair gun... or even see it, was to look through a tiny gap between the ramp and smoke stack. We had like 5 engineers trying to get it, but since the gap was so small, only 2 engineer beams could fit in there. Any more and you'd either lose line of sight on the beacon or you'd be blocking another engineer's beam with your body.

Needless to say, it's a pretty unfair spot to plant in. We did manage to get it, but only because of a fluke really.

[Terekhov]

As far as SBHs on whiteout and such, I look at it this way: the SBHs are essentially useless to their team the entire time they're going to and from base. If you have two hotwires watching the GDI base (especially the PP/ref), then they can be useful to their team repairing etc while they keep the SBHs at bay/ineffective, essentially giving GDI a higher relative player-count. If GDI doesn't do this, then that's their problem.

[HaTe]

if I remember correct Hotwires and Moebius units were able to see stealthunits a little better than regular GDI units... in classic renegade

Is this true?

Yes.

[StonerMk2]

Actually its not fine at all. I agree with R315. Played Renegade for nearly a decade and i have a hard time finding them bastards on Wall and Whiteout* (*: This map is nearly impossible). Hell tonight a whole PACK of Stanks got by 4 of us in the front turrets on Whiteout and i was looking for them. The stealth effect is great but when they are hit it needs to shimmer like it did in Renegade. Its really as simple as that. Also something needs to be done with Whiteout as well. Either change the color of the effect or something, because you can not see them at all. Maybe change it to red. Wasnt red the original color of the effect in Renegade?

[XD_ERROR_XD]

No, the stealth effect was white. And i don't think red on red would work... Lol

Stealth units in Renegade X have to glow more, like in the original game. They more spark right now, only showing you a part of their body, making it more like an odd looking bodypart you're looking at then a barely visible but easily distinguishable (did i spell it right?) silhouette of a player.

[R315r4z0r]

As far as SBHs on whiteout and such, I look at it this way: the SBHs are essentially useless to their team the entire time they're going to and from base. If you have two hotwires watching the GDI base (especially the PP/ref), then they can be useful to their team repairing etc while they keep the SBHs at bay/ineffective, essentially giving GDI a higher relative player-count. If GDI doesn't do this, then that's their problem.

Except that 2 hotwires is no where near enough. You'd need at least 4 or 5 on defense duty to slightly give a SBH a hard time planting beacons on that map. But they will do it anyway, regardless of how many people you put on defense.

Even if GDI's whole team is in their base watching for stealth nukes, it won't prevent nukes from happening. Plus, Nod armor will push up into GDI's base without any resistance.

Look, I'm not aganints SBH nukes or SBHs in general. But their stealth effect is way more powerful in Renegade X than it was in the original game, and that gives them an excessive advantage on bright maps. On Whiteout, in particular, GDI can't do a damn thing to win unless Nod is a bunch of morons. All Nod has to do to win on that map is to keep planting nukes in GDI's base. That keeps GDI in their base looking for SBHs and disarming nukes, while the rest of Nod just pushes up with artillery. GDI cannot fight back because if they do, then the nukes go off. It's lose-lose.

[Chrifister]

I had a lot of skins I used with the original Renegade. Most of them was just to make stuff look cool with different designs and such. One of the most important skins was the rainbow stealth effect. I just thought it looked cool and was much easier to see. It was a definite improvement over the base effect.

And no it wasn't a cheat. It was just changing the white shimmering to rainbow shimmering.

[iovandrake]

Rainbow stealth effect is a scrub tactic and you should be ashamed of yourself. The shimmer of the SBH shouldn't be so obvious. That's a cheat that no one ever bothered to fix (because they exploited it) and only real problem I ever had with Renegade skins.

As for stealth and bright maps I agree. SBH should shimmer when shot. Their body being on fire should be more obvious (with smoke trail). Lastly I think they should shimmer when they jump, sprint, or fall ANY distance. In Original you couldn't go jumping around as an SBH cause it showed you off. Yet SBH can run around like athletic ninjas on X right past everyone. In fact I think a good thing for SBH to have would be for moving AT ALL to consume stamina for them. If it's depleted they lose their stealth until it regens a bar. This would be a decent limiting factor on SBH and one I'm content to deal with as an SBH.

Right now SBH is far too easy. It has taken all the fun out of being stealthed for me.

[SFJake]

Shimmering when hit (and sprint) is really something that needs to be in this game, 100% agree.

[omega79]

The Stealth effect is fine ...it is supposed to be stealthed ...

it just need some slight adjustments ...

• Flicker/shimmer stealthed skin if hit by a projectile
  
• Flicker/shimmer stealthed skin if damage is recived
  
• Flicker/shimmer stealthed skin on contact with Tiberium
  
• Hotwires, Mobius, PIC and Havoc can see stealth units slightly better (depending on range)

Flicker/shimmer stealthed skin if sprint is not needed i think ...

reaveal on map if sprint is nice i think ...

i have been told it is like that already, but never was able to monitor that

[darksider282]

While they are supposed to be stealthy, being detected should mean actually, oh I dunno, being detected maybe. That means making the shimmer more obvious. I wouldn't want to increase the range or have detection be affected by class (though I like the idea of adding a shimmer when sprinting or jumping, not to mention the old fashioned damage shimmer) but with the current shimmer effect it doesn't matter on bright maps. All those arguing that the shimmer is fine because they are stealth units and are supposed to be hard to see, well you're supposed to also act stealthy. You shouldn't be able to get away with moving close to enemy units or taking damage, and once you're spotted it should require great skill or luck to get away safe. Just like the old days.

[omega79]

How about this?

Shimmering does not mean seeing sbh like nod does ...

it should be only visible if the player pays attention ...

[HaTe]

No.

[Valor]

What is the reasoning behind Hotwire and Mobius being able to detect stealth from farther away?

If GDI got a stealth unit via crate or whatever, would Tech and Mendoza be able to see it from farther away too?

[SFJake]

I don't think that hotwire deserves it.

However, Mobius kind of does and it just fits him perfectly... well, in my eyes anyway.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

That blue circle is too large, and that green circle is too small. They should meet each other somewhere in the middle for SBH's and nearly double the spotting range for stealth tanks.

[cirex]

A lot of SBH? just get a mobius and shoot around you will get a lot of free kills. Or, try to mine the base the right way for once.

[Tactix]

Too much over-exaggeration.

Most of the time, nukes are disarmed. People seem to conveniently forget that.

In the rare occasion that a SBH manages to nuke a building (when both sides are even), it means that GDI was incompetent. You had a hole in your defence and Nod simply took advantage of that. If a chess player makes a bad move, the opponent punishes him.

People also underestimate actively patrolling and guarding the base. They just mine and then leave for the frontline, assuming someone else will take care of the base. In the end, nobody is actually defending the base and SBHs can just walk in. 1 Humvee driving around the base can make the life of an SBH hard.

On maps with automated base defences you can afford to not give a fuck, but on maps without them, it's pretty much a necessity for GDI to have dedicated base guards.

Get lazy, get nuked. It's that simple.