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Renegade X - Pre-Release Update!

[NE]Fobby[GEN]

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Realpra Newbie

Realpra

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Yeah I didnt bash the AI either I said that it was good but not able to strategize as well as a human - i think thats pretty good! Being able to use all weapons, vehicles and all paths in the map is worlds better than renegade ai aswell as many other game ais out there.

Of course if you directly program it with the basic renegade strategies like rushing it could easily be very dangerous even if eventually repetitive (unless you just keep adding and making variations to the patterns).

Sounds like its pretty open what you can do with the bots.

Oh and the Ball Hueco is freaking awesome if you need to kill time until the 30. sep

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Demigan Newbie

Demigan

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About the AI, I think that most people are even dumber then the AI's. The AI's just pick the wrong priorities, but people don't pick priorities at all! They start sniping somewhere and don't contribute anything to the game, same for most people in a tank: If you don't have any hope of destroying it, what are you shooting it for? (I'm talking about marathon) Now if you are low on money, your pp and/or ref are gone or neither team is low on money, I can see why you are shooting, it gives you more credits (and points)

But most people also start shooting mindlessly at a building all game if the enemy team has lost their refinery! Why the hell would you be funding them that way? You already have enough money, so there is no real reason to shoot a building you can't destroy that way. Think of Islands, where there's always some stupid buggers shooting at the HON with an MRLS. I've actually only seen that succeed when there was a simultaneous infiltration of the HON to kill off the engi's and techs, which rarely happens. And at the end of the game they are proud for stalling the game and 'having most points, which proves they are the best'.

There are precious few that would be able to do better then a moderate UT3 AI that knows to pick priorities reasonably well.

Yours sincerely,

Demigan.

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Realpra Newbie

Realpra

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QUOTE (=HT=Duro @ Sep 15 2009, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
guys your funny lololol

why you talking about ingame AI .. we dont care .. if you got time to play a single player game with bots, you got time to get your ass online and play a real gae against other Humans . no ?????[/b]

Good/bad AI means the difference between coop or no coop, plenty of noobs/newbs online who never tried the game before or not and the possibilities of campaigns or not.

Also a good connection is not guranteed for everyone in every situaiton - nor is a sufficient player count at a lan or on a small server - all things that contribute to the need for AI.

I really hope renegade x stops some of these stalemate situations, they could get quite boring! Maybe by way of base reconstruction or a large advantage to damaging things over repairing them meaning that the attacking team doing well would get sufficient funds to end it with beacons or some rush while the pinned down team would never repair themselves to enough money for more than 100-300 credit stuff.

You could also put a limit to how much a building can be repaired so that if it has been repaired 2-4 times over you can no longer repair it and it only takes damage... even makes sense since theres a limit to the power of patches and duct tape lol.

Random crates starting to spawn changing the game (ending it)... anything really (that one was even very cnc/renegadeish!)

APathBeyond usually averts these stalemates due to larger and more open maps, but that also results in people "doing their own thing" more than in renegade (weird actually since teamwork is still a gameender... different kind of players?) - the only real stalemate situation in APB is due to the lack of free C4s which means both teams can lose their ref/silo (although rare) and then no one can destroy anything!
I really hope both map types will be seen in renegade-x. Only 14 days now!
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Wizard17 Newbie

Wizard17

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Wow, FANTASTIC! I am hosting a LAN Party on October 24 and we WILL be playing REN-X! Now to let all our people know to go out and get UT3 AND as I just got a message on my email today it is currently being offered by STEAM for 60% off so the timing is great!

Now to get a towel to wipe up the drool!

Thanks guys! I and everyone else in the community have been in AWE of the cool things you have done so far and we thank you in advance of the release date for this great mod!

WIz

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dustzone Newbie

dustzone

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QUOTE (Mr. Weedy @ Sep 16 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
AIs have way too limited list of priorities and you should be able to give them new custom priorities on the fly while you are in the game.

That's how I feel about AIs in short.

End of AI discussion in this thread from my end. :) [/b]


Then let me start your discussion on AI again :)

The great thing about UT as the basis is that in UT you can actually give orders to bots. In UT2k4 you could give your teammates commands like: Attack, Cover me, Dance,.... (I actually have never tried it in UT3, but it should be in there)


Anyway, 12 days to go.... the suspense is killing me!
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Spycon_Fighter Newbie

Spycon_Fighter

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QUOTE (dustzone @ Sep 18 2009, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then let me start your discussion on AI again :)

The great thing about UT as the basis is that in UT you can actually give orders to bots. In UT2k4 you could give your teammates commands like: Attack, Cover me, Dance,.... (I actually have never tried it in UT3, but it should be in there)


Anyway, 12 days to go.... the suspense is killing me![/b]


The UT3 AI are... meh...
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R315r4z0r Newbie

R315r4z0r

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QUOTE (Demigan @ Sep 15 2009, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
About the AI, I think that most people are even dumber then the AI's. The AI's just pick the wrong priorities, but people don't pick priorities at all! They start sniping somewhere and don't contribute anything to the game, same for most people in a tank: If you don't have any hope of destroying it, what are you shooting it for? (I'm talking about marathon) Now if you are low on money, your pp and/or ref are gone or neither team is low on money, I can see why you are shooting, it gives you more credits (and points)
But most people also start shooting mindlessly at a building all game if the enemy team has lost their refinery! Why the hell would you be funding them that way? You already have enough money, so there is no real reason to shoot a building you can't destroy that way. Think of Islands, where there's always some stupid buggers shooting at the HON with an MRLS. I've actually only seen that succeed when there was a simultaneous infiltration of the HON to kill off the engi's and techs, which rarely happens. And at the end of the game they are proud for stalling the game and 'having most points, which proves they are the best'.

There are precious few that would be able to do better then a moderate UT3 AI that knows to pick priorities reasonably well.

Yours sincerely,
Demigan.[/b]

There is more reasoning behind attacking buildings you can't currently destroy. There can be many different reasons.

For example, you might want to try and focus the enemy's attention so they don't notice another attack. You may not be able to destroy it but think about it: why can't you destroy it? It's because there are people inside repairing it. If there are people in that structure repairing, then that means there are less people for that team that can fight you.
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An4x1mandr0s Newbie

An4x1mandr0s

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... thus perfect for a retribution or godsend :P man i love those :D

And yes UT3 AI is horrible , the only way to improve it would be mesh nav ... and that would require giving Epic some 700 or so grand :\ so improving the AI will be a pain for the devs :unsure:

PS: why is it that no one ever reads the FAQ before asking questions? i must be special for doing that :P

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RypeL Newbie

RypeL

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QUOTE (An4x1madr0s @ Sep 19 2009, 06:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And yes UT3 AI is horrible , the only way to improve it would be mesh nav ... and that would require giving Epic some 700 or so grand :\ so improving the AI will be a pain for the devs :unsure:[/b]


Ok here is what will happent: The core RenX AI will not be better than the UT3 AI. Cause its obviously not possible for us to change UT3s core tech. So too bad: The game is not for you then. You can now leave and forget about this mod and play your other games with their perfect AI. How about that ?
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=HT=Duro Newbie

=HT=Duro

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QUOTE (RypeL @ Sep 19 2009, 08:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok here is what will happent: The core RenX AI will not be better than the UT3 AI. Cause its obviously not possible for us to change UT3s core tech. So too bad: The game is not for you then. You can now leave and forget about this mod and play your other games with their perfect AI. How about that ?[/b]


good idea RypeL, we will let them with their better AI and we will continue to play Renegade-X :P
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RypeL Newbie

RypeL

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Sry for ranting but if someone calls the UT AI horrible i just cant control myself. I remember playing them back in the day in Unreal 1 when i didnt really had the inet power to play online and it was a blast playing them. The UT AI was so lightyears ahead of anything else and they improved on it ever since. Im not too sure how the UT3 AI compares to other games atm as i dont really play much of the newer games but i have too good memorys playing against it so that if anyone calls the UT AI horrible again i will program them to exclusively hunt you when you are in the game :P

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R315r4z0r Newbie

R315r4z0r

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QUOTE (BLaZor @ Sep 19 2009, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
UT3's AI is awesome. I don't know what crap that dude was talking. :huh:
Besides, the only thing we can actually change movement wise is the movement scripts for the characters.[/b]

All they do is run around, kill other people, and perform random objectives. They don't use any sense of organization. There can be a winning goal but they just go off and do their own thing leaving you to do all the work.
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omega79 Newbie

omega79

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QUOTE (R315r4z0r @ Sep 19 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All they do is run around, kill other people, and perform random objectives. They don't use any sense of organization. There can be a winning goal but they just go off and do their own thing leaving you to do all the work. [/b]

hmmm ... this really sounds like human behaviour ... so if this is the criteria for real AI .... you know what i mean ;):P
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An4x1mandr0s Newbie

An4x1mandr0s

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QUOTE (R315r4z0r @ Sep 19 2009, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All they do is run around, kill other people, and perform random objectives. They don't use any sense of organization. There can be a winning goal but they just go off and do their own thing leaving you to do all the work. [/b]


Thus what i meant :P

I would prefer if people tried things and examined them carefully before speaking... bots are dumber then a brick... even on godlike :\

And FYI I played Unreal 1 , that was different ( a bit :P ) , know why? it was SINGLE PLAYER game as such if they AI sucked Epic would have had a lot more Epic flame boards :lol:

If you were talking about Unreal TOURNAMENT ( NOT the same thing ) then no it was not THAT good ... but was fun :)


I hardly consider a dude going around lonewolfing good AI <_< and when you give them orders they just do stuff around the map unorganized BUT trying to do the order you gave em , this comes from a long time Warfare player :P

All they have is super aim which you can find in other games

And you know what ? maybe you are right and i should leave the forums , C&C died some time ago for me with Westwood so why try to like a mod of a game i loved as a kid?
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RypeL Newbie

RypeL

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QUOTE (An4x1madr0s @ Sep 20 2009, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And FYI I played Unreal 1 , that was different ( a bit :P ) , know why? it was SINGLE PLAYER game as such if they AI sucked Epic would have had a lot more Epic flame boards :lol:[/b]


Unreal 1 (not Tournament) wasent a single player only game. It already had multiplayer bots.

But maybe youre right. Maybe developing RenegadeX on the UT3 Engine was an error cause of the baaaad bots. The Half Life 2 engine, Crysis engine or Battlefield Engine sure have better multiplayer bots .... not.
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An4x1mandr0s Newbie

An4x1mandr0s

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Yes and i played with those 5 mins ago :P not THAT great but they are fun ...

Now if you will excuse me , i need to steal a Skaarj ship to be stuck on the orbit of Na Pali for the 50th time :lol:

And no those engines don't have better bots ... they don't have them at all :P

UE3 is nice for GFX but until every one gets bot mesh nav they will always suck (just but a piece of paper with collision on their path nodes and the AI breaks :D )

The day AI will be good will be the day you don't have to tell them where to go by placing a gazillion markers on the map :|'

And sorry if you were offended by my opinions... you in charge of AI programming? :P

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Spycon_Fighter Newbie

Spycon_Fighter

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QUOTE (An4x1madr0s @ Sep 20 2009, 08:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes and i played with those 5 mins ago :P not THAT great but they are fun ...

Now if you will excuse me , i need to steal a Skaarj ship to be stuck on the orbit of Na Pali for the 50th time :lol:

And no those engines don't have better bots ... they don't have them at all :P

UE3 is nice for GFX but until every one gets bot mesh nav they will always suck (just but a piece of paper with collision on their path nodes and the AI breaks :D )

The day AI will be good will be the day you don't have to tell them where to go by placing a gazillion markers on the map :|'

And sorry if you were offended by my opinions... you in charge of AI programming? :P[/b]


From what I know... He created the camera system Renegade x used in some of the videos... and created the AI for the Obelisk and AGT....
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Demigan Newbie

Demigan

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QUOTE (An4x1madr0s @ Sep 20 2009, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thus what i meant :P

I would prefer if people tried things and examined them carefully before speaking... bots are dumber then a brick... even on godlike :\

And FYI I played Unreal 1 , that was different ( a bit :P ) , know why? it was SINGLE PLAYER game as such if they AI sucked Epic would have had a lot more Epic flame boards :lol:

If you were talking about Unreal TOURNAMENT ( NOT the same thing ) then no it was not THAT good ... but was fun :)


I hardly consider a dude going around lonewolfing good AI <_< and when you give them orders they just do stuff around the map unorganized BUT trying to do the order you gave em , this comes from a long time Warfare player :P

All they have is super aim which you can find in other games

And you know what ? maybe you are right and i should leave the forums , C&C died some time ago for me with Westwood so why try to like a mod of a game i loved as a kid?[/b]


Those bots are quite well designed. seperately, they are a dumb bunch that does whatever they like. But if you actually look at what happens in the whole picture: Some are automatically defending, critical things like nodes first, less critical things like chokepoints later. They don't always stand on the same place when defending a particular point, which is an improvement on the previous AI's as it makes it less predictable where they will be when you enter.
Others will be attacking, or semi-attacking by going into the field and keeping incomming enemies in check. Others will try and get nodes/flags. In the meanwhile, they will team-up doing their objectives. You will usually find that if you are attacked by one AI, the other one is right around the corner.
Sound familiar with human behavior? pretty much, there are enough people that simply sit there whole game sniping people that are actually only sniping at people from somewhere. Ending in a stale match where there's rarely any good attacks organised. At least the AI also picks up a few anti-vehicle weapons and is ready to die a hundred times over just to reach their objective and score 5 points. What humans aren't prepared to do, they will rather have a million points and no objectives accomplished, then -20 points and have finished several.

On the internet, I usually pay attention to good players: what do they do? how do they act? where do they stand if they stab me in the back? I try to learn from what happened before, and use the knowledge of where someone killed me to develop my next action.
The AI can't do that really. It will run up the same ramp a million times while you have a position where you can shoot them no matter how good they are, just like people on the internet you can observe them, discover how they work and then they are so predictable. That makes them stale, and that is the main reason people think an AI is dumb. You can learn how they work once and you will never be surprised again.

Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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Cacutar Newbie

Cacutar

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QUOTE (trigger-happy @ Sep 20 2009, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Omg i can't stop shitting myself in excitement when i see those screen shots man! btw will this game will be in third person or first person?, when I watched the trailer it got me worried and I stopped shitting myself at that moment.[/b]


its going to be both first and third. like Renegade...
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=HT=Duro Newbie

=HT=Duro

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why all those shit about AI ... we are on renegade-X forum, talking bout a mod who will be a ONLINE MULTIPLAYER GAME .... if they got time after, they will work on a single player .. so wait till the mod is officially release, and the SP mod is release and after start to talk about bad AI if needed

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[NE]Fobby[GEN] Newbie

[NE]Fobby[GEN]

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Well we do plan on adding an AI compatible with C&C mode for a later release. They will be intelligent enough to use purchase terminals and attack the structures or enemies with the lowest health first. Server hosts will be given the option to include bots in their multiplayer server - I can imagine this being useful for smaller servers trying to start up.

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Realpra Newbie

Realpra

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QUOTE ((NE)Fobby(GEN) @ Sep 21 2009, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well we do plan on adding an AI compatible with C&C mode for a later release. They will be intelligent enough to use purchase terminals and attack the structures or enemies with the lowest health first. Server hosts will be given the option to include bots in their multiplayer server - I can imagine this being useful for smaller servers trying to start up.[/b]

Everybody should compare these things with the renegade bots who couldnt do any of this, they couldnt even shoot buildings unless told to, much less use terminals, lifts, vehicles or anything really, before they bash AI.

Besides the day you cant find flaws to point at is likely the day you loose your job, your house, your food and your life at the hands of a much more dangerous "skynet" than is portrayed in any of the movies.

I think its gonna be great and 30. sep is soo close now!
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