Jump to content

Thoughts on Commander (and Public game social situations)


Handepsilon

Recommended Posts

  • Totem Arts Staff

Before I get to the point, I just want to state that this isn't a topic to urge a change in the Commander function itself or any other mechanics. This is just my thought on the mechanic itself based on my personal experience, so feel free to take it with a pinch of salt.

Without further ado, let me get straight to the point : Commander is a flawed mechanic.

That much is known to people, including my fellow dev. On paper, it's sounded logical : an FPS with RTS mechanic, having a role where you can be a pseudo RTS player in the game... taking control of units and pointing them towards victory. Unfortunately this is not what happens in RenX. These units will judge you for failures, rebel against you for orders that doesn't follow with what they want, and they cannot be controlled the same way you control squads in RTS.

Reasons

There are multiple reasons people doesn't find commanding in public games appealing. Self-esteem is one, when you are around people who's so much better at you and you feel like they should command instead. On the other hand, frustration on the team's uncoordinated antics can also make people averse to take on the role. Of course, the most notable reason of all is the pressure.

As a commander, you're basically in charge of the rest of your team. Doesn't matter if there's no enforced mechanic. Everyone will look up to you for ideas; everyone will attempt to give you one whether in teamchat or private; and most importantly, you will be the easiest target to blame on failures.

It's easy to shift blame on others before yourself. Commander berates their subordinates, the grunts berate their leader, the players blame their team for their loss. It's a common sad sight, and it's all the more reason why elites among us would rather play as the regular joe than taking the commander shoes, despite knowing all the metas.

Closing thoughts?

Really, the problem with commander mechanic is ingrained with the social problem of RenX. You have a team full of strangers, with varying skills and knowledge. Sometimes your combined effort works, sometimes it doesn't. This is all fine. What's not fine is the atmosphere that I see when an attempt of teamwork just doesn't work out.

Instead of quickly blaming your team for losses, perhaps we should look more on ourselves. After all, you're playing as a team. Their victory is your victory. Their failure is your failure. No matter what failing the rest of your team has, you are also at fault one way or another.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Commander Mod was introduced into Ren X against their better judgment by some players and plenty of devs.

From the beginning, PuG was set as the benchmark for pub games, which is complete nonsense, as Voice Speak is rarely used in pub games.

Now you have him in the game, some like him, some not. The Commader Mod is very suitable for Pug.

It has always been the case that sometimes you had "functioning" teams without a Commander and sometimes not. Sometimes you had more or less fun.

Whoever feels the Commander as pressure should not play him and act as a normal team member. You want to win, yes, but it should also be fun. It is and will remain a voluntary leisure activity and you should have fun there too.

Everyone has to decide this for themselves.

If you come up with the idea of introducing a similar function, whatever its name, in FS, I hope you enjoy it.

I didn't want to write that much. :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Totem Arts Staff

We won't. As implied,  the team already recognized the problem with putting commander in charge of the whole team.

My beef is not really whether or not the team can function with it, but rather what usually happens when it doesn't.

I feel sorry for commanders who gets the flak for losing, but at the same time I have little to no respect to those who talks down to their team for messing up. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is nice and seldom that some people think about others, especially in the virtual world, but why should it be different with Ren X and also in future with FS than with other games?

If you want to introduce a different system in FS, e.g. Squad leader, this problem will persist, only with the success that maybe more players get angry or frustrated.

Random games with random teams have their own dynamics.

I also don't like it when players reproach each other, it is and remains a leisure activity that should also be fun, even if you want to win.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

I feel sorry for commanders who gets the flak for losing, but at the same time I have little to no respect to those who talks down to their team for messing up. 

Yep.  

   I agree the mechanic is very problematic.     Does it sometimes break a stalemate and allow a conclusion to the match?  Yes. 

 But as I have posted with other threads -  there are ways to achieve this without this dis-functional mechanic.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Totem Arts Staff

Naturally in most social situations, esp. situations where cooperation, teamwork etc are involved, people will always look for leadership.

 

Before commander mode, trying to coordinate involved either spamming chat or using votes. My favorite part of the commander mode is the ability to flash messages on screen.

And personally, I will use all the commander powers all day, but I feel they actually take away from the team aspect somewhat. The team shouldn't be that reliant on one person.

 

And this coming from someone who's tested and learned the commander mode from day one. 

Heck these days I can't even have time to spawn into a match without being voted in as commander 😂

 

Bottom line is effective organization will not happen without some kind of leadership, or command, and someone has to take blame for those decisions. 

 

Does RenX need an ethics tutorial too? 😂

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

google translate:
We need to add the role of assistant commander. This player is not required to command, but will be able to stop / start the harvester, display a message (with a different color), use some of the commander's abilities.
This role comes in handy in cases where no one wants to command, but need to stop the harvester, etc. He will be able to organize an additional rush (Commander rushes with infantry, assistant rushes with vehicles). The commander's buff also affects everyone who is next to the assistant

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Bottom line is effective organization will not happen without some kind of leadership, or command, and someone has to take blame for those decisions. 

Unless the players are given more abilities and tools to communicate and the mechanic to form spontaneous rushes born out of the action....  It still makes no sense to me to give one person control of what is essentially a teamwork based game.   Let the players form effective rushes in the field.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In German there is a saying "The drop is sucked" (Der Drops ist gelutscht).

The new ones only know about Commander Mode and it will certainly not be patched out. There is only the option to live with it or delete the game from the hard drive (when you hate it).

I still have it, but I don't play anymore.Among other things, that was a consequence that I drew myself. But there were still unspeakably many deteriorations for me.

Now people have to live with it when they play Ren X. There will always be frustrated, angry players who often blame others (if lost). The old "team play" without Kommander stuff was good too. Btw, i never wants a leader when i played, i always accept good ideas for rushes from the Team. Sometimes with succes and sometimes not. 

Random is just random.

 

@roweboat Ethic tutorial would not help, i don't know any game where all ppl follow a Ethic tutorial 🙂

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see or understand why the Commander role could be considered 'flawed', just because of extra pressure... it provides leadership, planning and strategy to move the game along and prevent it from becoming a long drawn out cluster-****. There's a real hierarchy of leaders in real warfare for which this type of game is based upon. I do agree with em0 about having someone to assist with other areas. I also really like the idea of squad leaders, but it's frustrating to see how much effort is required to create such a thing that realistically may never make it into the game.

I play a lot of Hell Let Loose lately, it's also an FPS/Strategy with resources and bases-of-sorts, each team has a commander, some sub-commanders and a series of squad leaders. There's an exclusive voice chat channel just for the commander, officers and squad leaders. The squad leaders can point out rush / attack opportunities and in general commanders that have experience are respected, I suspect they also vent on games where things go badly. If there's no commander, games can still go ahead and depend upon co-ordination from squad leads. There's a text channel for the whole team, but also just for the squad, squads can also use voice with one another and this organisation of communication works really effectively, so you don't get plebosauruses harassing the commander by saying dumb things like "Use the CP!".

What really goes wrong in Renegade commanding - a disgruntled team that votes out a commander. I think they should be chosen from the start and stay the full game where possible and only be removed if something serious happens rather frustrated individuals getting upset. Expecting them to babysit and watch harvesters and be the one's to call in all the scouting information is unrealistic.

I also think the attitude from Renegade-X players/community is nothing like the HLL example, many players in general tend to be quite rude, swear more, be highly or overly expectant or easily judgemental or critical if losing during games and insults can get personal rather than being a reflective criticism. 

 

Quote

What's not fine is the atmosphere that I see when an attempt of teamwork just doesn't work out.

Instead of quickly blaming your team for losses, perhaps we should look more on ourselves. After all, you're playing as a team. Their victory is your victory. Their failure is your failure. No matter what failing the rest of your team has, you are also at fault one way or another.

I really agree with these sentiments.

It's not clear if your conclusion is to ditch the commander role entirely, or improve it more so that it's optimal?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Totem Arts Staff

@Backfromhell I say it jokingly of course with the ethics course. People will be people, come as they may :)

 

bottom line, I think the current role and power structure of commander is too concentrated. I think the concept would work better spread between 2-3 people. 

 

not a fully squad system, but something like a "offensive lead", (has radar, smoke and offensive buff - and able to use /r commands) "defensive lead" (has radar, emp and defensive buff, and able to use /r commands) and "scout lead" (has radar and able to use /r commands)

 

this would help mitigate blame and 'pressure' from one player, plus it would force team work even between those with "leadership" roles.

 

again this is coming from someone who frequently used the commander role. I hope changes can be made in some way to encourage MORE players to want to try it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, roweboat said:

I hope changes can be made in some way to encourage MORE players to want to try it.

When some seasoned commanders will try to not discourage new people at their first attempt, then maybe people will start to volunteer more.

Also you'll never make me a commander. Never.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I don't think the commander function itself is the problem. People are the problem. Passing the blame, lack of experience, refusal to co-operate, and so on... all human factors. There isn't much that you could change in the commander function to mitigate any of this.

I'm in New Zealand. So when its evening here, its midnight in the US and early morning in the UK. Servers are quiet. I try not to use commander too much since there is a bit of a stigma around using it in small games. However I will sometimes take the role if it becomes too much of a stalemate. It has been a decent opportunity for me to learn and become more fluid with the hotkeys. Also credit to Blackhand for his youtube videos.

I joined a match the other day on Islands where the bases had been reduced to just the Barracks and Hand of Nod. The match had been going for over an hour. Nobody wanted to vote for a commander I assume because player count was low. So after about half an hour longer of failed infantry and APC rushes I managed to convince people to vote to change the map.

This is also a problem with people. The commander function wasn't even used so you can't blame that. Without doing the map change vote it likely would have gone on for hours, like it some times did in C&C Renegade. But even with what happened I feel cheated of a natural ending, win or lose, that could have been achieved by working as a team and electing one person per side to co-ordinate.

IMO it's the stigma around commander that needs to be scrapped. If we can do that, and allow people to learn how to use it more effectively, then maybe we will solve more than one problem.

Edited by crazfulla
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Totem Arts Staff
10 hours ago, Gex_str said:

When some seasoned commanders will try to not discourage new people at their first attempt, then maybe people will start to volunteer more.

Also you'll never make me a commander. Never.

yes unfortunately the learning curve for commander is ridiculously skewed as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I love the commander mechanic, including its flaws, which are mostly due to the human element, not so much its place in the game. People will whine and nag regardless of who is commanding. 

The only thing I find daunting about the commander mechanic is that it's cumbersome to use through the key-combo menu. Also, for some reason, some commands don't work for me

On 2/25/2021 at 11:11 AM, Handepsilon said:

 

Instead of quickly blaming your team for losses, perhaps we should look more on ourselves. After all, you're playing as a team. Their victory is your victory. Their failure is your failure. No matter what failing the rest of your team has, you are also at fault one way or another.

Very much agreed, regardless if there is a commander. I find that some experienced players with a decent attitude can really help to pull the team together. All it requires is watching chat, engaging in it, spotting enemies, joining rushes, listening to commander or in short *playing the full extent of the game* :) 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/25/2021 at 10:11 AM, Handepsilon said:

Before I get to the point, I just want to state that this isn't a topic to urge a change in the Commander function itself or any other mechanics. This is just my thought on the mechanic itself based on my personal experience, so feel free to take it with a pinch of salt.

Without further ado, let me get straight to the point : Commander is a flawed mechanic.

That much is known to people, including my fellow dev. On paper, it's sounded logical : an FPS with RTS mechanic, having a role where you can be a pseudo RTS player in the game... taking control of units and pointing them towards victory. Unfortunately this is not what happens in RenX. These units will judge you for failures, rebel against you for orders that doesn't follow with what they want, and they cannot be controlled the same way you control squads in RTS.

Reasons

There are multiple reasons people doesn't find commanding in public games appealing. Self-esteem is one, when you are around people who's so much better at you and you feel like they should command instead. On the other hand, frustration on the team's uncoordinated antics can also make people averse to take on the role. Of course, the most notable reason of all is the pressure.

As a commander, you're basically in charge of the rest of your team. Doesn't matter if there's no enforced mechanic. Everyone will look up to you for ideas; everyone will attempt to give you one whether in teamchat or private; and most importantly, you will be the easiest target to blame on failures.

It's easy to shift blame on others before yourself. Commander berates their subordinates, the grunts berate their leader, the players blame their team for their loss. It's a common sad sight, and it's all the more reason why elites among us would rather play as the regular joe than taking the commander shoes, despite knowing all the metas.

Closing thoughts?

Really, the problem with commander mechanic is ingrained with the social problem of RenX. You have a team full of strangers, with varying skills and knowledge. Sometimes your combined effort works, sometimes it doesn't. This is all fine. What's not fine is the atmosphere that I see when an attempt of teamwork just doesn't work out.

Instead of quickly blaming your team for losses, perhaps we should look more on ourselves. After all, you're playing as a team. Their victory is your victory. Their failure is your failure. No matter what failing the rest of your team has, you are also at fault one way or another.

i for 1 think that the commander roll should have other functions aswell like ya have the buffs ya can order emp/airstrike thats all good and well but why not something else like some mechanics of firestorm then with commanders able to rebuy destroyed buildings with crap ton of credit cost.  any of ya remember the renegade commanders roll of rebuilding the power plant for like 5000-10.000-15.000-20.000 credits depanding on how many times ya rebuilded a destroyed building. that commander roll could also call in reinforcements,built turrets enplacement on the location with a commander credit pool but i think this defence building  should be a different roll entirely like a special engineer see under. the reiforcement one tho i wouldent say no to it like allow commanders to call in lvl 8  to cabal typ of reinforcement they would follow the commander and him only untill death

new engineer for both teams  constructive engineer. he/she will have hise own tools from 1 to 0 with a basic pistol+repair gun on slot 1 and 2 with 3-0 just being different typs of buildings that cost credits to place down. think of gun empacements in couple of matches.they wll be faction controlled meaning if ya build a machine or that rocket empacement only the faction can enter. they will be destroyed forever tho and dont get rebuild. 

constructive engineer- 1000-1500-2250 credit cost.

slot 1 just a pistol

slot 2 just a strong repair tool that techs+hotwires have

slot 3 the machine gun emplacement 750(1125 if no base power) just a 400 health turret ya can enter otherwise  it does nothing

slot 4 the rocket enplacement 1000(1500 if no base power) same 400 hp turret with it being  more deadlyer doesnt fire on hise own needs player input

the 5th slot just automated sam turret 2000(3000 if no base power) health no clue same hp as the ones ya currently should get

slot 6 machin gun version the automated defence 2500(3750 if no base power)

slot 7 turrets/rocket version of the auto defences depandin on faction nod gets turrets gdi just get rocket enplacements cost should be like 3000 to 4500 with  no base power

for slot 8 i have been thinking of a repair tool that drains ya money to do the repairs. think of the advanced repair tool then with a credit depleeting mechanic to it like for every 100 hp of a target ya heal ya lose 50 credits. this tool heals around 150-200 hp a sec so its really for speed heals with high cost  maintenance.

slot 9 base reconstructive tool. this is  repair gun that can repair permanent not destroyed  damage building every 1% of permanent damage repaired ya drains 100-200 credits of the players credit pool the repair gun gains 1 charge per 100-200 credits meaning at 0 credits the tool hase 0-9900 of whatever ya max credits can be it also fixes buildings very slow draining 1 charge per second to heal 1% of the permanent damage. ya cannot use this tool to repair destroyed buildings. could alternatively also make a command with /charge tool having it blank like this would charge it with all ya credits ya have writing down /charge tool 25 would drain the credits for 25 repairs. so that people dontjust waste there money repairing others with this considering it then always hase 0 charges unless ya manuelly charge it with credits. ofcourse the charges are kept on death when ya buy this engineer back ya have the remaining charges in this tool.

slot 0 unrepair tool. when used on the defences ya build ya destroy them over a coupe of seconds refunding half of the base credits back meaning if defences costed 2500 credits ya get up to 1250 credits back depanding on the state the defence structure was in meaning lower hp=less money back also it ignores the increased cost if no  base power is pressent. 

also the defences u build will have a name tag of who build them meaning they could maybe also give ya vp for there kills?

  

Edited by slashes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

for slot 8 i have been thinking of a repair tool that drains ya money to do the repairs. think of the advanced repair tool then with a credit depleeting mechanic to it like for every 100 hp of a target ya heal ya lose 50 credits. this tool heals around 150-200 hp a sec so its really for speed heals with high cost  maintenance.

This reminds me of when could spend money to repair turrets.   I kept losing all my money because I didn't realize what I was doing.   But I am intrigued by your variation.    It might be fun to commit more money to a particular healing operation to a player or a vehicle.     I really like when the game has critical action and you can choose to (try to) turn the tide of war.

Edited by isupreme
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm surprised that people are blaming the commander role too often. I commanded many games so far and I can tell that most people are not helping the commander at all. But the ones who do are of great value to the commander. I experimented with this and played at least one game where i fully dedicated myself to help the commander (I spied GDI base as SBH and PM-ed the commander many times) and it worked beautifully.

Helping the commander and team mates is done by spotting all enemy units. Especially SBH/snipers should do this, but it's rarely done. Sometimes the commander is just guessing where and what type of enemy tanks there are on the map for example.

As a commander I rarely receive PMs from team members that want to help out. People just expect you to read every team message. Well try to do that when you are in a difficult (tank)fight... Simple PMs could be "Please stop harv, area unsafe", "Please start harv, it's safe", "Field suddenly is quiet, they might tunnel rush!" "Two enemy transport heli in their base".

Or people should use the Team Polls more often to warn the entire team about the incoming danger. Short team polls are most often read immediately. Team chat is not! Especially when people don't use "Defend the base!" radio message after chat message.

Or people should learn how to use the "Defend the base!" radio message (it's rarely used in RenX while in OG renegade it was used very good). If people hear this they will start reading your important team chat message!

 

And yes sometimes the commander makes a critical mistake that will be very painful, one that you might not recover from. This happens, but most commanders keep it in mind for the next time and learn from the mistakes. I always listen to critics and see what's gone wrong, although it probably may not seem like it. Sometimes i made a big mistake, sometimes the team isn't performing well enough to fight back the enemy. Many times it's a combination of both. Critic is many times given in a hard way, we all know that this isn't the correct way.

 

No, I don't think it's a good idea to have a pool of CP being shared by multiple commander roles. That creates more chaos. Imagine sub-commanders using up CP just before the commander needs to buff a rush ;)

 

Some new idea's for Renegade X:

- A special key for chatting with the team's commander. This may encourage people to PM the commander more. I think that if you make it more easier for people, they will start to do it more often. Then the commander can forward the important info/messege to the team.

- A special key for warnings about incoming enemy rushes? These messeges are then displayed in a different way and also with a very subtle warning sound. Right now the poll votes are being used by some players (including me) to warn the team for incoming rushes. The poll votes are not meant to be for this. And also sometimes there is already a poll vote so it then is not possible to warn the team with a poll vote. There is ofcourse some concern about spam with this idea, players should not abuse this chat function.

- The possibility to somehow ping a request for harvester stop/start to the commander. Many times the commander is too bussy and totally forgets about the harverster micromanagement. This often leads to the enemy killing the harverster and gaining alot of vet points.

- It would be a nice addition to vote for harverster start/stop when there is no active commander. I have had alot of my vehicles get destroyed because that harverster is bumping into your tank defending the base entrance. (Nightmarish flashbacks of OG renegade C&C Mesa harvesters coming up). For example a short 7-seconds vote poll of some kind. The vote poll can be also available when there is an active commander, but the commander then gets to decide and has to start/stop manually. The outcome of that poll can be presented to the commander with an on screen notice, like "Team requested you to STOP the harvester" and "Team requested you to START the harvester". The commander may also allow/disallow the request by pressing F1 or F2 in the vote poll. Just something like this.


- Please add a section in the Renegade X menu for a help screen/guide that teaches people how to use the PM-function and donate function. It takes a long time before players get to know this, they usually have to be teached now manually by other players. Communication is essential for new players too because they will learn the game faster and will more likely stick to this game as they experience more of the team-playing aspects.

- New additive PM-function:
The ability to quickly PM someone that you are targeting with your mouse crosshair (or last team member you targeted). Let's just say this could be really especially useful with (SBH) sneaking teamplay. Hover your mouse crosshair over a team-memeber and press a special key op open the PM chatbox with the name of that team-member already polulated and you can begin typing immediatly. This is much faster and prevents typo mistakes then players have a difficult name. Also it's not always easy to read the name-tag of the player in every situation.

- Small improvement: Harverster started messege.
Right now the team only gets notified when the harverster is stopped but not when it's started. But the team also needs to know when it is being started again, so the team can begin defending it. These sometimes is some ambiguity about the state of the harverster (running or stopped).

- Small improvement: Harverster info improved

On the score board instead of only "active" or "destroyed" we can also display info like "stopped" and "to tiberium field", "resturning to refinery". On the map display screen there is no info about the harverster. It would be nice if this info about the harv (including it's health bar) is also displayed there. This is especially useful for commanders because they often view the map screen. The harverster is an important unit and the commander is responisble for its safety. Maybe in addition it's also a good idea to make the harverster more visible on the map (e.g. outlined in green color).

- (Sound) notification (for commander) when the harvester is going on it's route to the tiberium field. With a clear notice, the commander can decide if it's still safe for the harverster to go gather the tiberium. Right now we only have the credits dump sound, but this is hard to hear when fighting in battle. With the notification the commander can stop the harvester in time when the tiberium field is unsafe.


Other improvements:
- PM notification sound is very low, barely notisable when in a fight. Sometimes people are missing the messages.
- Nerfing GDI sattelite scan: the sound that is being played when you are as nod being marked by the sattelite scan is very low volume, barely notisable when in a fight. Since the sattelite scan is OP compared to Nod's spy plane, please at least make it very obvious that you are scanned by it. So that way you know as commander that a rush has been scanned so the commander can make final adjustments like changing the plan/route etc.

Edited by CoolAid
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/17/2021 at 8:36 AM, Handepsilon said:

I'm iffy on the notion of giving commander role more functions. That means more task to do for them... which leads to more responsibilities... which leads to more room to mess up the team and for people to blame them on.

it thats the focus on not wanting commanders to have more responsability why not have players do it themselfs. like the engineer idea just make it cost alot of credits so not everyone go's for it then having there effectiveness in defence rally on credits. the more money they have the more things they can possibly do. then to stop people from making the people overpowerdt that pick these classes the momment ya bought it ya can no longer gen normal donations. the only donations ya can get is when someone leaves then also half of what everyone else gets. this way it makes it really that money is power. 

when this roll is released to the game make it the 1st week free to buy with  message telling them for 7 days this class is free afther the 7 days it can become like 1500-2000-3000 credits to buy it. the class will also have enchanced health/armor. could even make it able to survive a ramjet sniper headshot 1 time wih the only way to regain health is with repairs or increasing ya vp rank. this makes them excelent typ of builder with a special mechanic to them.

Edited by slashes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

it that's the focus on not wanting commanders to have more responsibility why not have players do it themselves.

+10    Slashes  I am sold.   You got this so right its not even funny.       As I see it, every ability given to commanders could be given to players.

The game could easily enable players to have a more dynamic interaction with battlefield conditions -  Respond to what is happening faster than any Commander can organize.   Let players voice their experiences thru the choices they make.

But this i cannot support:

Quote

when this  is released to the game make it the 1st week free to buy with  message telling them for 7 days this class is free

One of the great things about RenX is that it is totally and really free.   Really free.   And each game we all start equal.

I really like this about the game.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont think that will work. For example. If you would quickvote poll to stop a harv for example. Many people would just F2 because they think the harverster is probably going to survive (even in a situation where it really will not). Many people just never want the harverster to be stopped because they think it's going to give them more credits if you allow it to run all time. It still would be a nice addition to vote for harverster start/stop when there is no active commander. Just a new idea.

We all know the matches in Original Renegade. Many where not really organised. It's not about commander ability to use command powers. It's really more about communication to the team from a central point (the commander), that is the important thing and makes all the difference. Knowlegde, planning, stategy and map awareness. Sure the team can help with this alot. For example spamming spotting with Q-key, PM the commander about important matter and giving the commander new idea's for the best rushes to do in the current situation. I really dont see much of this being done right now. So I don't really think that every ability should also be given to players, many will not use it correctly and for the purpose it's ment to be. You will only see more solo-ing happening...

Edited by CoolAid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Totem Arts Staff

While I'm all about helping commanders, I'm not sure if PMing them a vital information that is also very relevant to the rest of the team is actually a good move.

I mean, you can do that if the commander is unresponsive to your first or second warning, but if you're warning about possibility of rushes, then you shouldn't have PM'd the commander. You should warn the entire team for that. I honestly would feel better as a commander if the team member actually communicate ideas or warning on the team chat instead of dumping the responsibility of choosing and relaying warning solely to the commander.

I dunno, but having to retype stuff all the time especially if I'm in the heat of battle or trying to do other things is not ideal. If you do need to highlight important stuffs via PM, I'd also appreciate it being sent to team chat as well so other team would know what's up. Imagine if the commander is in the middle of the field battling their tanks out and trying to stay alive, and then you PM'd the team-important info to the commander, completely banking on them to stop whatever they're doing to relay that info to the rest of the team instead of just telling it to the team yourself.

More on that, I personally feel like that's a cowardly move. If the idea fails or the warning turns out to be false, the responsibility lies solely on the commander with nobody except the Comm or the PMer knowing who exactly suggested it in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone playing Natural Selection 2 a lot, loving commanding, or even squad, there is something critically different in Renx. I'll give my opinion of what I've seen so far about commanding and why it is hard to com

- The game wasn't designed with the commander role in mind regarding the UI for example. God it's so difficult to do something when commanding because of how many keys you have to press and all you have to read when you're starting to command. Talking about keys, you have the same keys for different interactions (like you can accidently start your buff for me with the A key because A is also the spotting key, so no spotting while choosing a buff for me). And this seems very hard and I think a lot of people is getting scared of the UI. And if you fail because you are learning, you have 32 people that saw it.

- Not like natural selection (or even Squad 'cause it's a slow paced game), you are expected to do multiple things at the same time : be a soldier and fight on field, think about your strats and help your team, and drop your supp powers where you need them - while talking in chat to your team with old means like /C everytime or /Istilldontknow how to PM. If you are not NOD and can't be an AFK invisible SBH in field It's extremely heavy on multitasking compared to NS2 where you are exclusively a commander and have one role : someone out of field helping everyone, and managing.

                   - AND ! you don't have any voice chat to help you ! every game I know with a commander have one, for obvious reasons. So you better be good at Flash-typing..

- And all that with not less than 64 / 2 = 32 players on your team looking at you ! It's hard managing even 9players in NS2 or your squad in Squad so 32... you will always have a lot of people that are just not in position to respond to your call ATM, or some that don't listen etc.

 

Well at last in Renx team strategies (at last in pub with 64 players) mainly revolve around "gather many peopl to 1 place and shoot big target with attak buff until it goes boom", because buildings are so tanky and repairs are so efficient you just usually cannot do anything the hole game to blow them. And not talking about vehicles that are just mainly bad for everything except maybe a mammoth rush buff in field (loosing NOD air can even be beneficial knowing how strong rave is and there is no inf limit). So you usually fight a pointless battle for hours until one team gather and suicide push buff a building and win. And for that commander is needed. but do ha have to be the only one calling for scout or managing harvesters for example on top of that ? maybe it could be a team cooldown for some support power ? yes, there will be pointless supp power used and wasted CP, but like mining we could have a "ban from using cp" maybe ? So that the commander could focus more on fighting / gathering / give intel and buffing than managing

 

Talking about toxicity, I'm not sure it's a really important turnoff for commanding. Let me explain (I'm not for it) Natural selection 2 is pretty over the edge sometimes already when you "fucked up" as a com, because as usual seing a single individual mistake is way more easy than looking at yourself or looking at a teamfail. It's human, and I don't think there is something that can be done. But for Ns2, the game does not start without a com, yet you still have people playing this role knowing it can be "their fault" if something went wrong.

But at last in NS2 you know why you failed, you have a proper UI to help, a tutorial, and people, even if they blame you, often try to teach you the game, the meta, the mechanics, if you tell them you are new or want to learn. In Renx, you are suppose to com when you KNOW how to com, same as you are supposed to mine, but even if I saw a lot of players telling "this guys can't mine" "theses mines are shit", I never read someone explaining how to mine, and what is a "good mine" without taking the time to actually watch how mines are placed, and why. Same for com. new com is elected ? ok he must know how to, and if not, kick and choose another one.

 

Lastly because of the game mechanics one could say that you "need" a com to do anything with 64 players. I am part of the team "64 is too much" because it's just mainly everytime a pointless eternal battle that leads to nothing until a commander do something which is just mainly suicide the hole team to get a building. and it's sad :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had played RenegadeX for many years since 2014, then took a long hiatus and now I'm back. I'm someone who could be considered a veteran player of RenX although this commander system is brand new to me. I've tried it a few times now, and here is my two cents for what it's worth.

I think it is a good mechanic although it is not in an ideal state currently because there is only like 4-6 active players total who are willing to be commander at all. The reason is stress/pressure, as others have said.

Proposed solutions:

Command interface: Atomsk correctly pointed out above that the current access to commands is too cumbersome (CtrlC, then press numbers, then press other numbers). I wonder if a system like the radio shouts could be implemented? (E.g. you hold down one key and it shows ALL powers as numbers, then you just press that number.)

Commander "light": Currently being a commander feels like working a job instead of playing. It also feels like roulette: if your team wins you are the hero, everybody !rec-s you. But if the team even just starts losing, you are the villain.

There should be a Subcommander/Commander"light" position with all powers except for Deff/Off buff. This would be a laid-back commander: no buffs, no rush organizing, just generally helping your team with harvester, mine removal, scout planes, spotting, missiles, etc. At any given time there should only be either 1 (full) commander OR 1 subcommander. Which means if a full commander is elected then the subcommander is automatically stepped down, to avoid conflicts.

Yes, a team with a commander will win over a team with only a subcommander. But having a subcommander is better than not using any CPoints at all. And I believe this "lighter" commander position would make more people volunteer for it.

 

---

Related but slightly off-topic: is there a way to make the chat window more visible and for chat messages to decay slower? I'm often finding myself missing of lot of important chat - especially as a commander - when in the heat of battle (and manually opening Esc->Chat is too cumbersome).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by salarite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Totem Arts Staff

Maybe I've mentioned this before, because this was apart of the original commander mutator. I wish the team info box could be utilized to have a current team goal on screen.

 

The amount of times I've had to stop running mid rush to type which building we are attacking (even if I'm just pressing up to repeat the last message, is too often)

 

Give the commander the ability to have a static message on screen

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, salarite said:

Related but slightly off-topic: is there a way to make the chat window more visible and for chat messages to decay slower? I'm often finding myself missing of lot of important chat - especially as a commander - when in the heat of battle (and manually opening Esc->Chat is too cumbersome).

Agreed. We need a key to press to bring up ONLY chat and color coded by teams. The problem with pressing ` is that it's too hard to read quickly (not color coded and shows non chat spam), and you cant screenshot it (for evidence of bad situations).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Commanders might be flawed but man they help end a stalemate. Sub-commanders imo is a bad idea, just cause of the amount of chaos it can cause in full games (there's enough of it already in 64 player games) and some commanders are just plain rude which can cause additional conflict in chat as to what rushes would work, with a lot of insults being thrown around while the enemy team rushes and kills 3/5 buildings, along with the fact that someone else might use CP right before a rush to cruise which can completely mess everything up, cause now instead of a dead building there's permanent afk reps stretching the game out to be longer. Honestly, I'm not sure on how to tackle a problem like that without making the games extremely long, though the thing I will say is current public game commanders should let newer commanders step up and get used to the pressure and help them out as much as they can. The other thing would be adding a lot more QoL stuff, such as important keybinds for stopping harvester, selecting commander powers on the press of a button, a keybind for teammates to automatically private message the commander etc, so newer commanders feel more confident. Maybe at the most, commander buffs can be used by a person who initiates a vote that lasts 15 seconds tops, so he gets access to a one buff only if their team doesn't have a commander. This reduces the pressure cause you're not really commanding + helps people who are sneaking to use smoke strikes while there is no commander to help them sneak, though that essentially gives techie a commander smoke grenade. No idea how broken that could be in practice 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After the first game that I commanded I noticed I had much trouble with the commander-menu. It's just not user friendly enough imho. It's also very hard to get yourself used to it. So i wrote an Autohotkey script so that I didn't had to use it that much. And it helps alot, especially when you have to double-buff your team or quickly place two Smoke Screens. I find alot of comfort in using it, as i'm just too clumsy to use the commander-menu. I think that if people would use this, it helps them to become a decent commander and they can focus more on strategies instead of their troubles using all the keys to get to the commander-command they need to use.
 

For example: I now only have to press two keys (Numpad 5 and Numpad 6) to have my team double-buffed.

 

Download AutoHotkey:
https://www.autohotkey.com/ (Use current version, not version 2)

Use the script:
Place the code below in Notepad and save as .ahk extension instead of .txt extension. Or just download the .ahk-file below.

It doesn't matter in what location you save the file. For example saving to the desktop will be fine.

You are able to run the AutoHotkey script only if you have AutoHotkey installed, just double-click the .ahk-file to run it.
If you run it, you will notice a green icon with a white H character in the Windows taskbar (right side small icons, aka notification area).

Make sure NumLock light is active (on) before useage or the commander-powers probably won't work.

-----------------------------------------------

Renegade X autohotkey script for commanders - (created by: CoolAid)

Save this text-file as .ahk extension instead of .txt and you are able to run the AutoHotkey script when you have AutoHotkey installed.

Testing this script:
1. Go into a Skirmish game (with or without bots).
2. Press F5 and write "givecp 3000" and hit Enter to give yourself CP again to test command powers.
3. Press F5 and write "god" to enable invincibility (optional).

Look at the script for the available hotkeys/functions. It's easy!

 

; ==================================================================================================
; ==================================================================================================

; Renegade X autohotkey script for commanders

; Created by: CoolAid

; Use the script:
; Place the code below in Notepad and save as .ahk extension instead of .txt extension.
; You are able to run the AutoHotkey script when you have AutoHotkey installed, just double-click the .ahk-file to run it.

; Testing this script:
; 1. Go into a Skirmish game (with or without bots).
; 2. Press F5 and write "givecp 3000" and hit Enter to give yourself CP again to test command powers.
; 3. Press F5 and write "god" to enable invincibility (optional).


; ==================================================================================================
; ==================================================================================================


; ==================================================================================================

#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
; #Warn  ; Enable warnings to assist with detecting common errors.
; SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%  ; Ensures a consistent starting directory.

; ==================================================================================================



; ==================================================================================================
; CapsLock always off   ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
; ==================================================================================================

;	; Side effect: CapsLock always off while RenHotkey is active.
	
	If (InStr(CapsLock_Always_Off, "yes", false)) {
		SetCapsLockState, AlwaysOff
	}

; END - CapsLock always off
; ==================================================================================================



; ==================================================================================================

#IfWinActive ahk_exe UDK.exe

; The code below is only active when the Renegade game window is active.



; Terminate Renegade X process when it freezes (Alt + F4).
!F4::
process, close, UDK.exe ;Kill/Terminate/Close RenegadeX (UDK.exe) by using Alt + F4.
return


; Commander ability: Radar Scan
Numpad1::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput 1
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Smoke Screen
Numpad2::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput 2
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: EMP Strike
Numpad3::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Cruise Missile
Numpad4::
Sleep 10
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput 4
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Defensive Initiative
Numpad5::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput 5
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Offensive Initiative
Numpad6::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput 6
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Stop/Start Harvester (Ctrl + Numpad1).
^Numpad1::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 4
Sleep 10
SendInput 1
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Harvester - Set Harvester Waypoint (Ctrl + Numpad2).
^Numpad2::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 4
Sleep 10
SendInput 2
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Harvester - Remove Harvester Waypoint (Ctrl + Numpad3).
^Numpad3::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 4
Sleep 10
SendInput 3
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Harvester - Toggle To Self-Destruct (Ctrl + Numpad4).
^Numpad4::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 10
SendInput 4
Sleep 10
SendInput 4
Sleep 10
SendInput {q down}
Sleep 500
SendInput {q up}
return


; Commander ability: Place "FOCUS FIRE" marker (Caps Lock).
CapsLock::
SendInput {Ctrl down}{c down}{c up}{Ctrl up}
Sleep 50
SendInput 1
Sleep 50
SendInput 7
Sleep 50
SendInput {q down}{q up}
Sleep 50
SendInput e
SendInput e
SendInput e
return


; Show map screen by pressing the mouse upper side button.
*XButton2::
SendInput {m down}{m up}
KeyWait XButton2
SendInput {m down}{m up}
return


; Commander team rush messages: Open Y to write a team message. Instead of pressing Enter, press Right-Shift to send it as a RUSH message.
RShift::
SendInput {home}
Sleep 30
SendInput /r{space}{end}
Sleep 30
SendInput {enter}
return


; Repeat your last written team message (makes use of the 'arrow-up' key to repeat your last message) (Page Up).
^PgUp::
SendInput y
Sleep 250
SendInput {up}
Sleep 250
SendInput {enter}
return


; Send commander message "Follow me, this way!" (Page Down).
^PgDn::
SendInput y
Sleep 250
SendInput {backspace}{backspace}{backspace}
Sleep 250
SendInput /C{space}
SendInput Follow me, this way{!}
SendInput {enter}
return

 

RenegadeX_Script_For_Commanders_Concept.ahk

Edited by CoolAid
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/19/2021 at 5:30 AM, isupreme said:

1.+10    Slashes  I am sold.   You got this so right its not even funny.       As I see it, every ability given to commanders could be given to players.

The game could easily enable players to have a more dynamic interaction with battlefield conditions -  Respond to what is happening faster than any Commander can organize.   Let players voice their experiences thru the choices they make.

2.But this i cannot support:

One of the great things about RenX is that it is totally and really free.   Really free.   And each game we all start equal.

I really like this about the game.  

 

1.indeed every ability could indeed be given to normal players yeah and i see why not. the buffs should just be normal to everyone. it can eather cost credits or same command points. with a twist if it credits it like 2k-3k credits per buff.  it is command points they wont auto generate. to get these points ya would need to put in effort to get them every it would it could give like double or triple the vp ya currently get or something.

2. why wouldent ya support this with a new unit being creditless to test out for players for a limited time then afther the 7 days or so it gets a credit cost. this way players can experience the infantry first hand if its usefull for there playstyle or not for them. same with other infantry certain players only preffer to play with sniper so they pick marksman,deadeye/blackhand sniper and the sakura/havoc characters. this is another way for them to try this out

 

3,now what i also find missing for players is to call in reinforcements and an ammo refill. anyone else remembering the !cammo command to call in an ammo refill for free or 100-500 credits depanding on which server ya played with ofcourse a cooldown. then ya also had the 1k credit basic reinforcements ya could call in every 180-360 seconds.

the commander in that game mode hase there own credit pools aswell with no limits+the ability to in advanced reinforcements for like 2k-3k credits from there commanders pool. the turret costed around 9000-12.000 credits to place 1 on the same location that the commander was when they used the !cturret command. the commanders should have these commands instead if ya ask me being able to drop in turrets/defences on the battlefield or inside the base with a large cooldown with ofcourse a credit cost to them.

i would really like to see these things added to renegade x  because it was part of the other regenade servers it was worthwhile because it was kept for years and years with the servers pretty much being kept up due to players themselfs.the server with these commands also had a long player lifespam with it being full mostly same with renegade x servers.+back then ya had like 500 players stil playing that also helpt in filling atleast 4 servers with the 64 player limit in them

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Totem Arts Staff
On 4/7/2021 at 8:31 AM, mouse705 said:

Agreed. We need a key to press to bring up ONLY chat and color coded by teams. The problem with pressing ` is that it's too hard to read quickly (not color coded and shows non chat spam), and you cant screenshot it (for evidence of bad situations).

There actually is a chat window in the pause menu. Very few people knew about this I assume.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

There actually is a chat window in the pause menu. Very few people knew about this I assume.

But that one doesn't show big red commander (rush) messages. Also chat in pauze menu is cumersome to reach as many people have the "Private Chat" tab selected and not the "Public chat" tab.

There schould be a quick button for a windows that shows all chats or all team chats including PMs and Commander (rush) messages.

Edited by CoolAid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...