How Should work a Construction Yard

[Nexus51325]

Hello Renegades, I'm curious to know how you guys imagine a Contruction Yard in Renegade X should work.
We have already seen a Contruction Yard in original Renegade, this building was able to repair other buildings slowly,  giving them life little by little.
But to my eyes there is probably something more interesting to do with that building.

I started to work on a CY for my next map, it still need some polish of course, also the interiors is not finish too













Nexus

[kira]

add a bridge

[Harisson]

How it should work:
15 minutes building revival: if team is losing building A and manages to hold for 15 minutes they get their building back fully operational with 100% health and 0% armor/shield (so it is more vulnerable and needs care/repair to 100%); if more than 1 building destroyed - it goes into queue and waits another 15 minutes starting from building A restoration time (building B destroyed, building A has 7 minutes left to revive so 7+15 = team gets building B in 22 minutes).
Why it should work so?
This will encourage players into teamwork and more aggressive gameplay, not just afk repairs and constant siege, as enemy at the gate will need to press on, unless they want to lose advantage. For longer matches it will create "game changer" as team that can manage to hold back with building destroyed for 15 minutes can push enemy back with former strenght and prevail.
If Yard is destroyed, this option is disabled for the team.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Harisson

[roweboat]

I see the Construction Yard as having 3 abilities:

Passive: Slowly heals buildings, exactly like unit regen on Elite.

Active: Allow for other buildings to be rebuilt if destroyed 1 time each during a match, at high cost (eg, 20,000 Credits)

Additional Commander power: Allow for defensive buff on building which increases it's armor for a limited time (exactly like defensive buff currently but only affects the building) [this commander power is disabled if Con Yard destroyed]

 

In this way, there are many advantages to having the Construction Yard active, but if its destroyed, the team isn't penalized for not having it active.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Harisson said:

How it should work:
15 minutes building revival: if team is losing building A and manages to hold for 15 minutes they get their building back fully operational with 100% health and 0% armor/shield (so it is more vulnerable and needs care/repair to 100%); if more than 1 building destroyed - it goes into queue and waits another 15 minutes starting from building A restoration time (building B destroyed, building A has 7 minutes left to revive so 7+15 = team gets building B in 22 minutes).
 

so while the con yard is operational the game is a huge stalemate to heroic and then just spam rockets/dozas in a base race.

[roweboat]

That looks amazing by the way!! =D

[Guest]

1 minute ago, roweboat said:

Passive: Slowly heals buildings, exactly like unit regen on Elite.

this point goes into the stalemate'ishness of the match.. since 10% damage to health is still damage, it being repaired over time would just prolong a match for no reason and no circumstance

[roweboat]

Maybe make it in such a way that the "regen" effect only begins 5 minutes after it takes damage.

 

I think it would be an interesting mechanic to see how it might play out.

[Killertomate]

Sometimes ppl on public matches get angry because one team is too good and they get rushed down quickly. Construction yard helps not in this situation.

Sometimes ppl on public matches get angry because a map takes way to long (Under, Field, ...). In this situation a construction yard might be counter productive because this might increase the time even more.

And it adds unnecessary complexity to the game.

 

So all in all I am against the idea of an construction yard. 

Maybe as a tech building though ...

Edited November 13, 2019 by Killertomate

[svett89]

I could see a couple of different effects. Regardless of other effects, I think one of them should be buildings repair at a rate of ~1 Engineer healing the outside of each building. Note that like normal repairs, it should only repair armor, not health.

As for other effects, maybe one or more of these:

• Commander Points generate 50% faster
• Airstrikes cost 400 instead of 800, Repair guns cost 100 (or are free). If team loses the MCV, Airstrikes cost 1200, Repair guns cost 400, and Beacons become unavailable (beacons should perhaps be linked to Temple of Nod/Advanced Communication Center though).
• Gain additional Veterancy Points. Either a passive income of like 2 VP/30 secs, or add ~1 VP to regular VP sources.
• Minor base defences (Guard Towers/Turrets/SAM Sites/AA Towers) automatically rebuild after being destroyed (with some internal cooldown of ~10 minutes)
• Additional faction-specific Commander Power unlocks while MCV is alive. Maybe something like temporary mass-cloaking field for Nod and an Orbital Strike for GDI. Alternatively, could also have the Commander Power which airdrops in a limited number of advanced vehicles for each faction, like Tick Tanks for Nod and Titans for GDI.
• Makes the team's C4/Proximity Mines twice as slow to disarm. Makes mines immune to EMP.
• Could also be integrated into map design so that additional routes into the respective base becomes available if MCV goes down (similar to what happens when the Dam is captured on Reservoir). Something like gates opening, revealing one additional vehicle path and one additional infantry path through which the enemy team can attack.

[TK0104]

Keep the mechanic of the auto repair. As everyone knows the original one in basically every C&C RTS game was for base building. But since we don't have that in RenX that won't be possible. But, we can use the new blueprint gun Hande created for survival mode to have access to building GTs and turrets.

 

Don't give it too many options, as other buildings also influence a small piece of the base

[Fffreak9999]

You could also take the mechanic I suggested when I did the April fools post

[Mystic~]

I agree with most of what Roweboat's and Ffffeak's ideas are if it were to become real. I really don't like the model used in the top screenshot, it's not rounded enough yet or not close enough to the original game, but it's really nice you're creating a map with one.

I think passive repair would work just like a silo, ticking away at building armour repairs so that you don't have people running around the base just to repair 5% worth of splash damage or have someone like a rocket solider solo destroy a building given the time. We might hear less spammed or unnecessary "building needs repairs messages". If no power plant you get a long slow repair rather than a quicker repair, but not meant to replace a team of hotwires. Not sure if Harrison was suggesting that it heals small amounts of permanent damage i.e. back to full health or not.

The building shield sounds quite desirable for both sides, whether only on one structure or the whole base might be a discussion point.

The ability to slowly rebuild base defences would be useful, GTs, Sam sites and turrets that don't auto-re-spawn anyway re-grow in stages, something like old Warcraft building models.

As it's the construction yard, I don't think it should influence anything outside of either building/re-building or repairs or base defence, the idea I liked from Svett was the idea of temporary barriers breaking away or base walls being destroyed and revealing new breach points. It would be cool to see the tech centre incorporated, becomes more important in choosing what your team perhaps upgrades tactically and could change the game play somewhat to become more interesting.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Mystic~

[Handepsilon]

Oh yes,  blueprint weapons do go hand to hand with this structure :p

[roweboat]

Yes just give us unlimited GTs please.

[Marinealver]

While I think Building reconstructions should be a possibility or something that adds in some options in the late game as buildings are taken down. The game still has to progress and that progression is building destruction.

So options we have is a simple building auto repair, which could be a convenient quality of life feature but then it would be one of the least important building to the point where it might not even be mined.

Now if it does rebuild buildings then it would be a target but the building repairs must be very slow. Still it runs the risk of having a round last in perpetuity. 

Here is a crazy idea, Reverse Building Rebuild. Instead of an intact building rebuilding destroyed building, how about a building that once destroyed provides a rebuild of a destroyed building? The idea comes form the classic mission where you won't get A-10 strikes until all SAM sites were destroyed. So this is the idea, if a AGT/Obelisk is destroyed the Airfield/War Factory is rebuild. Likewise if a Construction Yard is destroyed then it restores the other team's Barracks/Hand of Nod to full health. That way Building destruction still progresses the round but it allows for the late game to still have the high end weapons and vehicles where as traditional the late game one side if not both are lacking in the high end items.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Marinealver

[Handepsilon]

9 hours ago, roweboat said:

Yes just give us unlimited GTs please.

No

I reckon 4 is enough for you?

Quote

Here is a crazy idea, Reverse Building Rebuild. Instead of an intact building rebuilding destroyed building, how about a building that once destroyed provides a rebuild of a destroyed building? The idea comes form the classic mission where you won't get A-10 strikes until all SAM sites were destroyed. So this is the idea, if a AGT/Obelisk is destroyed the Airfield/War Factory is rebuild. Likewise if a Construction Yard is destroyed then it restores the other team's Barracks/Hand of Nod to full health. That way Building destruction still progresses the round but it allows for the late game to still have the high end weapons and vehicles where as traditional the late game one side if not both are lacking in the high end items.

That's...... confusing. I don't even understand the correlations that you drew between what buildings get destroyed and what buildings get rebuild

[MajesticSausage]

Make in single use? (I know that doesn't fit C&C lore but then....is that too important?)

The construction yard will rebuild a destroyed building entirely, but you can only use it once. Is it more important you get base power back online? Or rebuild your air strip? Will this give you a chance to turn the tide?

[roweboat]

4 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

No

I reckon 4 is enough for you?

oh fine. ='(

[vandal33]

Auto building repair is a must as it is its original ability in Renegade and the repair rate can be adjusted if it's game breaking.

Not sure about rebuilding buildings, it could cause stalemates or nullifies the effort the opposing team put to destroy the building. Maybe make rebuilding a building very expensive (like in IA) and the revived building only has the permanent health bar. 

Another idea is don't allow it to rebuild a structure that's already destroyed, make it a repair only building that can also repair "permanent" damage. It should repair the armor bar first, while the health bar has a very slow repair rate. It might cause stalemates (we're already talking about reviving dead buildings anyway) so the team may need to pay lots of money to allow repairing permanent damage.

[CoreDefender]

On 11/13/2019 at 4:23 PM, Mystic~ said:

 I really don't like the model used in the top screenshot, it's not rounded enough yet or not close enough to the original game, but it's really nice you're creating a map with one.

It's the Renegade version of the Construction Yard, not the Tiberian Dawn version.

 

[CoreDefender]

And I would agree with @TK0104, just have it do the exact same thing that it did in original Renegade and don't give it too many options.

[crazfulla]

Allowing people to build guard towers would be amazing, but would probably be a little OP. Maybe leave that to Hande's survival map.

Maybe instead of making it auto repair buildings (which was always kinda pointless) perhaps it could allow a team to repair perma damage. This way, taking out the construction yard would actually become more of a priority as once eliminated, it would render the rest of the base easier to destroy.

In the original renegade, there was pretty much no benefit to having those extra structures. I presume that's why the Communications Centres have been made into a tech building in Ren-X. They served no meaningful purpose.

Edited December 3, 2019 by crazfulla

[Madkill40]

Perma health regens over time

[TomUjain]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:42 PM, Kaunas said:

this point goes into the stalemate'ishness of the match.. since 10% damage to health is still damage, it being repaired over time would just prolong a match for no reason and no circumstance

I disagree,

 

I have always been a believer of having the ability to 'buy back' buildings (at a heavy price) - the yard might be a good playground to test the waters on this, besides it'll add a new style of gameplay which might turn out to be a blast.

Don't forget that as you 'rank up' your damage and rate of fire scales (inc buffs), building health does not nor does healing aka 10 heroic rockets = one dead building very quickly. The 'ranking up' system pretty much put an end to stalemates, granted games can drag on for hours but thats normally due to both teams faffing around with getting together rushes -- or due to being down to one building (offline AGT for example) and stuck with basic rocket units.

If anything losing buildings is what can cause stalemates. In the rare games where both teams are down to basic units / tanks then you can expect a 4+ hour session (normally) where as having the ability to get back a building would cut that 4+ time in half.

I am getting flashbacks to old wall games where it wasn't uncommon for games to last all day (12+ hours) in some cases. However introducing a 4 hour timer mechanic would remove this problem completly and default the winning team by points.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by TomUjain

[CoreDefender]

I think it would be better to introduce it with only the ability it had in original Renegade (auto-repair of base building health), and see how people like it.

If players feel it should do more, then some of the other options proposed here could be introduced.

On 11/13/2019 at 3:01 PM, TK0104 said:

Keep the mechanic of the auto repair.

Don't give it too many options, as other buildings also influence a small piece of the base

This is how it should initially be introduced to the game.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, TomUjain said:

I disagree,

 

I have always been a believer of having the ability to 'buy back' buildings (at a heavy price) - the yard might be a good playground to test the waters on this, besides it'll add a new style of gameplay which might turn out to be a blast.

Don't forget that as you 'rank up' your damage and rate of fire scales (inc buffs), building health does not nor does healing aka 10 heroic rockets = one dead building very quickly. The 'ranking up' system pretty much put an end to stalemates, granted games can drag on for hours but thats normally due to both teams faffing around with getting together rushes -- or due to being down to one building (offline AGT for example) and stuck with basic rocket units.

If anything losing buildings is what can cause stalemates. In the rare games where both teams are down to basic units / tanks then you can expect a 4+ hour session (normally) where as having the ability to get back a building would cut that 4+ time in half.

I am getting flashbacks to old wall games where it wasn't uncommon for games to last all day (12+ hours) in some cases. However introducing a 4 hour timer mechanic would remove this problem completly and default the winning team by points.

 

i said ''passive repair'' not ''buy back''

i have nothing agaisnt a buy back option for buildings, im agaisnt passive repairs.

[Fffreak9999]

Honestly I disagree with the idea of buying back access to the production buildings. 

I would prefer a very slow passive regeneration, kind of what was suggested in multiple threads before. 

Changing the Con Yard to be a building recovery building (while accurate to the functionality in the RTS), would unnecessarily prolong games, or be prohibitively expensive to be near pointless. 

 

As before, from the Apr Fools post. I would find something similar to this sufficient, or even utilize payment to trigger passive health recovery for a short duration.

E.g: Pay 10000 to the building (shared pool) - Repair Building health by 5% on all buildings (max of 60%) over 2 minutes

[CoreDefender]

On 12/14/2019 at 5:17 AM, Fffreak9999 said:

Honestly I disagree with the idea of buying back access to the production buildings. 

I would prefer a very slow passive regeneration, kind of what was suggested in multiple threads before. 

Changing the Con Yard to be a building recovery building (while accurate to the functionality in the RTS), would unnecessarily prolong games, or be prohibitively expensive to be near pointless. 

I agree with that. And it never had that ability in original Renegade, likely for the reasons you just mentioned.

 

[iridesence]

there is a way i had thought that comprimises for both sides:

The conyard would have several uses for a team:

Firstly, while the conyard is up, commanders can spend a large amount of credits to rebuild a bases "basic" defenses (turrets & guard towers).  lets say, spend 7,500 gold to start a counter on a chosen "defense slot".  after the timer counts down (lets say 2 minutes or so) the turret or guard tower is rebuilt.  this helps with base defense  and gives more utility to the structure.

Secondly, while the building is alive and functioning, every building (other then the conyard itself) slowly regenerates its shields (not health) at a rate as if it was being repaired by someone with a repair tool externally.

Thirdly in the RTS games the CONyard also had a small supply of power it also gave to the base when active, so having it active while the powerplant is destroyed will negate the cost increase of units and vehicles somewhat (lets say a 30% reduction of the penalty).

Finally, when the conyard is destroyed, respawns take twice as long, and any remaining buildings suffer 1% health damage (not shields) every 5 minutes to a minimum of 2% (to keep it from self destructing).  

 

at least, this was my idea.  afterall the conyard was the most important structure of your base, and it should hold a role similar to that i believe.

[roweboat]

10 hours ago, iridesence said:

there is a way i had thought that comprimises for both sides:

The conyard would have several uses for a team:

Firstly, while the conyard is up, commanders can spend a large amount of credits to rebuild a bases "basic" defenses (turrets & guard towers).  lets say, spend 7,500 gold to start a counter on a chosen "defense slot".  after the timer counts down (lets say 2 minutes or so) the turret or guard tower is rebuilt.  this helps with base defense  and gives more utility to the structure.

Secondly, while the building is alive and functioning, every building (other then the conyard itself) slowly regenerates its shields (not health) at a rate as if it was being repaired by someone with a repair tool externally.

Thirdly in the RTS games the CONyard also had a small supply of power it also gave to the base when active, so having it active while the powerplant is destroyed will negate the cost increase of units and vehicles somewhat (lets say a 30% reduction of the penalty).

Finally, when the conyard is destroyed, respawns take twice as long, and any remaining buildings suffer 1% health damage (not shields) every 5 minutes to a minimum of 2% (to keep it from self destructing).  

 

at least, this was my idea.  afterall the conyard was the most important structure of your base, and it should hold a role similar to that i believe.

I believe @AlienX has a similar mutator in his server a few years ago, regarding the base defenses that is.

 

As far as I remember, it was a neat idea to be able to rebuild base defenses, but I feel it made matches drag on unnecessarily long.

[Fffreak9999]

He did have rebuildable defences such as GT/Turrets.

They were a little dodgy at times since bots LOVE jumping into them

[roweboat]

35 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

 

They were a little dodgy at times since bots LOVE jumping into them

Oh yeah!~! I forgot about that bit D=

[Handepsilon]

That part should be fixed now lel

[crazfulla]

I feel that "buying back" a building is kinda cheaty and undermines the point of the game, to stop your buildings dying in the first place.

Repair of "perma damage" is probably going to be contentious enough.

Edited December 18, 2019 by crazfulla

[Profane Pagan]

I think the construction yard merits the invention of a bit different game type, which would give more emphasis on the  action between the commander, its team, and their effect on the map. Inherently, a construction yard in strategy games is the main tool of exploiting and reshaping your environment.

In its current form of the Ren X Cnc game mode, we can fight on the map, but we cannot interact with the environment in a strategic sense. Edit: It is limited and such effects are calculated and decided by the designers of the maps (e.g.: tiberium fields).

The Yard could serve as a tech building which would provide minor construction services. The commander could research each item for CP,  and the team could use the tools. Such construction items could be

• Czech hedgehog anti tank barriers,
• Turrets, gun and rocket emplacements.
• A repair-cannon, which essentially would work as an AFK player: You place it in front of the MCT,  and turn it on. It starts repairing it, as an engineer, but with much better efficiency. The repair-cannon would have  finite amount of repair points, and would cost a fortune. After it depletes its repair points, the cannon destroys itself.  Imagine the situation, when a besieged team can afford this item during their last stand, releiving player engineers to exit he building in order to fight off the intruders.
• Or a buyable bridge, which you could use in a very specific location, where there is a missing bridge. So you could open a new path to somewhere.

Many other construction tools could be imagined I suppose. Of course you could only build in your own base and maybe around occupied tech silos. As for turrets and towers I imagine a commander would put down a building blueprint box, and engineers could erect them with their repair cannons. It gives a tactical layer, because building such emplacements would cost money, time, and human rescources. Can you afford it, in the middle of a battle?

After research, other tools would be affordable for players, like the barriers. Or the repair cannon. I admit who the hell has time to develop this? But a construction yard in my opinion is an extreme idea enough to talk about extreme implementations.

Personally I like games where you can interact with your environment. I am not talking about destruction per se. My imagination doesn't stop at construction yards. What if you can order the harvester (fromt he refinery) to dump its toxic cargo on a specified location, in effect barring the route from enemy infantry?  You or the enemy could send a harvi to clean it up later.

Destroyable Anti-tank barriers would work as much the same: you could deny entire pathways for vehicles. Thus, the team, controlling a construction yard could force a different playstyle on the other team.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Profane Pagan

[TomUjain]

It could be used as 'another game mode' where the mechanics allow you to buy back buildings, adding a bit of spice and varity from the default. I'm not saying we should make this a feature on all maps however.

We could also give the ability to buy 'defence structures' similar to how the survival mode works.