Mining Re-Design

[boxes]

Part 2 of 4 of post-pug discussions

--

The Existing Problems:

It should be well known by now given the drama we find in-game and the re-occuring topics we see over and over here on the forums. We've seen many ideas thrown around, such as stricly personal mine limits, laser fences, purchasable mines, and so on. The current mining system is the pinnacle of a good idea, but poor execution. Given that its mostly inherent from Westwood, the dev team is not responsible for its current design, but it is still long overdue to try new things to fix this flawed system. Too many players have fallen victim to accusations of team-hampering, vote-kicks, mine-bans (which shouldn't even be a thing), and spews of hatred over mining and failing to do it 'correctly'. These players are often unaware that they are harming the team or thinking that they are helping out, when in reality they are driving their teammates insane. If we are looking to bring this game to new audiences, it is imperative that this must be addressed in some way (no, an official tutorial will not work. When was the last time you played/watched a tutorial all the way through in a new game, and had fun doing it? And even if we did, there's too many nuances of mining to be properly addressed in a timely manner). 

In games, many player interactions with objects should come across to be extremely obvious. If you hold a gun or drive a tank, you shoot enemy players with it. If you have a repair gun, you shoot it at friendlies. So, if we hold mines, we should put them at places to deter or kill enemies entering an area. Unfortunately, that is extremely vague in this game, which can range from base entrances, bunkers in the field, or areas in infantry paths. Literally nothing in the game communicates to the player that proximity mines rely on a team-based limit, nor does anything explain what happens if players mine over the limit, or why they should care. Nothing tells a player how crucial it is to mine 3 mines per door, why they should or should not mine building ramps, and so on. And if you are reading this and you have no idea as to how mines work, my advice is to simply not use them. The learning curve is too big, and it's not worth the trouble getting into it if you are familiarizinig yourself with other game mechanics. 

Back to the point, the problems currently are:

• Failure to communicate a team mine limit and overmining plus the effects of it
• What it means when mines aren't at the max limit
• Default item of Techs/Hotties, implying to the player that 'this is mine, and I get to use them however I like". 
• No telling what the radius of detonation for the mines are (players put them in places where enemies can bypass them)
• No indication of the most optimal mine locations

But what the system gets right:

• The feeling of insecurity and danger from an incomplete mine count
• Being the one in your team to notice it firsthand, and giving off the feeling that 'you saved the team'
• Ability to 'trick' infiltrators by placing mines in uncommon patterns or potential locations

--

What to change:

Implement a new type of mine specifically for buildings. Around each door, there should be a transparent cabinet with 3 visible slots, each containing building mines, and each mine costs XX credits. Players purchase and access these mines by holding down E. Players can see the mines missing by looking at the cabinet (or around the door itself), and can use them whenever possible. These are available at the start of the game. Rename 'Mines' at the bottom to 'Building mines' or 'Team mines'. 

Properties of building mines:

• New model/color
• Same damage/health values and disarm/repair logic as current proxy mines
• Part of the team limit
• Must only be placed when a player is standing on its respective building mesh. For example, if a player were to place down HON specific mines on the ground outside of the building, the player will not be allowed to plant. Players will be notified through audio and overview text.
• If the player is too far away from the building they bought mines from, the building mines will be confiscated and placed back into the cabinet where they came from, and the player will be refunded. Players will be notified through audio and overview text
• As soon as a building mine is disarmed, it will go back to the nearest cabinet, wherever space is available
• After 30 seconds of purchasing the mines and they still haven't been placed, the mines will be confiscated and the player will be refunded.  
• Unique weapon hotkey
• Can only hold 3 at once

Technicians and Hotwires will still have proximity mines for free use. However, like AT mines, only 2 will be allowed to be placed per player. Fortunately, they will no longer be fully responsible for base mining, and the loss of HON/Bar will be less severe this way.

Properties of proximity mines:

• Takes damage from weapons
  • Will explode if destroyed like AT mines
• Only 2 mines per hottie/tech
• Same damage/disarm/repair logic
• Not part of team limit
• Red ring to indicate Nod mines, current one as GDI mines

Around every typical mining area on buildings, the floor should be textured with some red outlined box with text saying something like 'Mining Area', with three circles, Xs, etc to indicate to the player where mines should go. Ramps are self explanatory.

Team mine limit will be dynamic, depending upon how many buildings remain, and what buildings they are. All mines inside a destroyed building will be automatically disarmed.

--

Benefits:

• Exactly the same way to let players know if an infiltration is going on, by seeing the team mine count drop and the feeling that something is amiss. Given how new players have a better idea of where team mines go, they will better understand what a non-maxed mine count would mean. 
• New players will have all the freedom to use their own proximity mines however they please with no detriment to the team
• Overmining is no longer possible
• Current mining dynamics unchanged
• Infiltration probabilities unchanged
• Players who access the building mines have an indication of where to put them
• Deters early infiltrators from ending games quickly
• 'Anti-Tank mines should go where tanks go. Proximity mines should go where infantry go. Building mines should go in buildings.' 

--

Repurcussions:

• Players will have to spend time look at the other cabinets for mines if another player bought mines but used them on another door/ramp
• HON will be difficult to indicate how to mine, may look like a bunch of scribbles on the second floor
• Unable to place mines directly outside of doors to prevent shooting inside
• One person responsible for mining may not be able to afford to mine all the buildings, could happen before donation time starts
• Unable to stack additional mines in a building due to dynamic mine limit

--

I strongly encourage all to share disagreements or concerns. Only that way we can know and address any potential flaw we might overlook otherwise, and what we truly want to see as the defense system in RenX. And only this way, we can reach a consensus that we are all content with, one that regular players and new players alike can both embrace.

[NodSaibot]

Just one thing noteworthy, it would be harder for one person to mine, depending on the cost. Mining has always been a flat cost of 350, unless you die while mining. Usually there aren't too many people mining at the beginning, at least from what I see. People might have to ask for donations to mine or take a bit longer to mine while they get credits. I am all for the idea, that's just something I thought about after reading.

[boxes]

3 minutes ago, BubbleTea said:

Just one thing noteworthy, it would be harder for one person to mine, depending on the cost. 

Added!

Yep it will likely happen. I was thinking 25 credits per mine, and one player will definitely run out of credits before the donation time begins.

[LavaDr4gon]

Would any infantry be able to purchase the mines or just Tech/Hotty?  If any infantry can mine then an added benefit would be that you no longer need 1 advance engineer to keep mining the base after losing hon/bar.

Also would there be a repercussion of not being able to place extra mines in a building after losing a building?  Whenever a building is destroyed we would often disarm the mines so we can place the extra mines in the remaining building.
 

[roweboat]

I like the concept. Although it seems a bit convoluted, but less vague than the current system.

If doors and ramps are typically the only thing that should "mined", why not make this defense system something stationary or static within or around the building. (such as the laser fences or gun turrets)

I agree mining a base usually costs about $350. Lets make it $700 to average out the extra techs/hotwires/people doing the same task.

Let's take Field X for example. 5 buildings, 30 mine limit. That's assuming 6 defense points. Per mine the cost is roughly $24. (example Power Plant cost is $144 because of 6 mine use). Other buildings might vary. AGT/ Obliesk usually only uses 3 mines, so defensive mine costs are lower.

 

So instead of an item like a mine;  each building has a special PT that allows for buying the static base defense (that would be able to disarmed and destroyed just like mines are now) that costs between $75 - $150 depending on the building.

 

Then proximity mines can be used more freely and create general chaos.

[Agent]

I still absolutely hate the concept of mining a building at all, where you put explosives inside of your own buildings to ensure nobody gets in. I've said plenty on mines in previous mine-related discussions, but I'd really like to see some alternative to explosives for the purpose of building defense.

Currently my favorite idea is to just add a simple interior turret that can both hurt players and one-shot-disarm C4. The turret's never destroyed unless the building's destroyed, but would be disabled at 0% health so that the turret can be repaired later on. It's far more intuitive than planting C4 in your own buildings, and avoids arbitrary pre-defined mining zones. This also removes any cost associated with repairing the turret, and reduces the significance of multiple points of entry into buildings (i.e: thinking HoN vs Barracks, where on some levels the Barracks can be easier to defend than the HoN; similar applies to Airstrip vs WF).

In addition to that, I'm still a strong proponent of removing proximity C4 from hotwires / technicians completely, and converting them into a purchasable item (same slot as a beacon or airstrike), so that infiltrators can mine enemy buildings after entry or otherwise. Removing the mine limit is a huge benefit of removing team responsibility from proximity mines.

If we were to go the route of re-purposing proximity mines, it might also make sense to forbid proximity mines from being within a short (maybe 3 meter or so) distance of friendly buildings. Otherwise, any player who still doesn't put mines at a door or near a door is effectively team hampering by not helping prevent infiltration.

[boxes]

4 hours ago, LavaDr4gon said:

Would any infantry be able to purchase the mines or just Tech/Hotty?  If any infantry can mine then an added benefit would be that you no longer need 1 advance engineer to keep mining the base after losing hon/bar.

Also would there be a repercussion of not being able to place extra mines in a building after losing a building?  Whenever a building is destroyed we would often disarm the mines so we can place the extra mines in the remaining building.
 

Yes, any infantry can purchase mines

Added! 

4 hours ago, roweboat said:

If doors and ramps are typically the only thing that should "mined", why not make this defense system something stationary or static within or around the building. (such as the laser fences or gun turrets)

I was really into that idea at first too (laser fences), but an issue somebody brought up is that it eliminates any interesting dynamics that players can utilize with mines, such as putting 2 in front of the ref and 4 in the back door. In this way for example, defenders when they see 4 mines down, have a good sense as to what building is in trouble. 

Maybe ramps don't need to be included in this system, but it may cause some gameplay issues with having SBH freely roam the WF roof. 

4 hours ago, Agent said:

I still absolutely hate the concept of mining a building at all, where you put explosives inside of your own buildings to ensure nobody gets in. I've said plenty on mines in previous mine-related discussions, but I'd really like to see some alternative to explosives for the purpose of building defense.

Currently my favorite idea is to just add a simple interior turret that can both hurt players and one-shot-disarm C4. The turret's never destroyed unless the building's destroyed, but would be disabled at 0% health so that the turret can be repaired later on. It's far more intuitive than planting C4 in your own buildings, and avoids arbitrary pre-defined mining zones. This also removes any cost associated with repairing the turret, and reduces the significance of multiple points of entry into buildings (i.e: thinking HoN vs Barracks, where on some levels the Barracks can be easier to defend than the HoN; similar applies to Airstrip vs WF).

In addition to that, I'm still a strong proponent of removing proximity C4 from hotwires / technicians completely, and converting them into a purchasable item (same slot as a beacon or airstrike), so that infiltrators can mine enemy buildings after entry or otherwise. Removing the mine limit is a huge benefit of removing team responsibility from proximity mines.

If we were to go the route of re-purposing proximity mines, it might also make sense to forbid proximity mines from being within a short (maybe 3 meter or so) distance of friendly buildings. Otherwise, any player who still doesn't put mines at a door or near a door is effectively team hampering by not helping prevent infiltration.

At a logical perspective, I understand where you're coming from, mining doesn't make any sense per se, but that can also be applied to many other things in the game, like why orcas/apaches are free to fly undamaged while slamming itself on the ground, or why a buggy can surf 6 engineers on top repairing each other at the same time. It doesn't make sense, but these and mining are not too bizarre to the point where it gets in the way of somebody's experience. 

The issue with interior turrets is that it affects the balance of infiltration; as we saw in HexMountain. It can be extremely difficult to pull off, especially with proxy mines, but at the same time, the buildings have so many hiding spots where players can avoid line of sight from the turrets. HON in particular would need 5 turrets to completely cover all angles inside the building. How would a solo infiltrator get around to disabling all these turrets? If we were to have a limit on these turrets per building, how would players know, similarly to the way we do right now via drop in mine count, that somebody is inside a building but has bypassed the turret defenses? How would players know that something is amiss like the system we have at the moment?

Whatever happens to proxy mines is freely up for debate. I wouldn't mind if they were purchasable either way, as long as there is a personal limit to them so they don't get out of hand when a team averages 2k+ credits per player.

If somebody doesn't put them at doors, when there is a clear indication that that is where mines are intended to go, and after seeing their teammates put them in front of doors beforehand, perhaps we could make it so all teammates can remove mines, and upon disarming, a refund would be granted. If somebody is hellbent on putting mines in place where their teammates don't agree on, I would believe a team hamperer is present, and this player would be no different from somebody pushing teammates off the plateau on walls. 

[Redarmy]

At the MCT or a PT of a building, just have an option to "purchase mines" for the building. All mines are then auto-placed at "standard" locations on the building. If you want to be able to move mines to other buildings or something, a pick-up mine feature could be added where a player can pick up and move proxies.

[limsup]

1 hour ago, boxes said:

how would a solo infiltrator get around to disabling all these turrets?

I do not wish to engage in any debates here regarding the broader scope of things, I would only have a single, very specific, sincere question without any presumption:

Would that be desirable?

I know it is very well established, that a single infiltrator - if left unchecked - can single handedly destroy a structure, I would merely prefer to hear pro and contra reasons on this matter...

[roweboat]

6 hours ago, Redarmy said:

At the MCT or a PT of a building, just have an option to "purchase mines" for the building. All mines are then auto-placed at "standard" locations on the building. If you want to be able to move mines to other buildings or something, a pick-up mine feature could be added where a player can pick up and move proxies.

Yes that's basically what I'm advocating as well. Something that takes the guess work out of it.

Leave the guess work for other parts of the game.

[roweboat]

5 hours ago, limsup said:

I do not wish to engage in any debates here regarding the broader scope of things, I would only have a single, very specific, sincere question without any presumption:

Would that be desirable?

I know it is very well established, that a single infiltrator - if left unchecked - can single handedly destroy a structure, I would merely prefer to hear pro and contra reasons on this matter...

The whole idea of infiltration has been discussed at length in the past. Even so far as one point, Havoc & Sakura were rebranded as infiltrators and given 2 timed c4.

I think that topic is easily enough for its own separate discussion. 

I think it's important to note here that basically, this comes down to:

How to simplify the base defense system without changing the concept of what it is now. OR should some totally new idea be implemented?

[Eagle XI]

This will come as even more complicated to the new player. You will transmit an message to the player why that mine disappeared into thin air and he's going to get baffled: ok, but whyyyyyy soooo ?

So, you thought there are not enough mines in the base, they are only in the buildings, entire base should be blanketed with mines. And what point there will be to sneaking then ? Making building mines exempt from the global limit doesnt bring any improvement to the current system.

Mines inside buildings shouldnt be allowed at all. I would rather have those laser fences, automated or deployable sentry guns with limited ammo pool, really any solution else than this.

[boxes]

9 hours ago, limsup said:

I do not wish to engage in any debates here regarding the broader scope of things, I would only have a single, very specific, sincere question without any presumption:

Would that be desirable?

I know it is very well established, that a single infiltrator - if left unchecked - can single handedly destroy a structure, I would merely prefer to hear pro and contra reasons on this matter...

As @roweboat mentioned, discussion of infiltration balance is something for another thread. As it currently stands, infiltration has not been a priority balance issue, and I wish to see a system that affects it as little as possible in our current position. 

34 minutes ago, Eagle XI said:

This will come as even more complicated to the new player. You will transmit an message to the player why that mine disappeared into thin air and he's going to get baffled: ok, but whyyyyyy soooo ?

So, you thought there are not enough mines in the base, they are only in the buildings, entire base should be blanketed with mines. And what point there will be to sneaking then ? Making building mines exempt from the global limit doesnt bring any improvement to the current system.

Mines inside buildings shouldnt be allowed at all. I would rather have those laser fences, automated or deployable sentry guns with limited ammo pool, really any solution else than this.

Maybe, maybe not, we will never know without playtesting. But what I do know is that this is very reminicisent of the good aspects of the system we have now, in that base defense is a player responsibility, and there is a specific way to determine an infilitration taking place (mine count), with the only way to check is by manually entering a building and investigating. It's something that current players can recognize right away, while at the same time giving babysteps for a new player to understand it.

The mine won't disappear in thin air. They simply won't be allowed to enter the plant animation, and there will be a HUD notification and audio telling them that if they try, like the vertical clearance we have right now for commander powers.

Building mines are the global limit. You cannot plant more than the limit because there simply won't be any more after you plant the last mine. Proxy mines are limited to two per player like AT mines, and I don't expect to see this to be an issue since they take damage from weapons. There's no indication of whether or not your proxy mines are disarmed.  

Responded to Agent in regards to turrets, and roweboat with the laser walls. I can still see some further significant gameplay detriments if we implement the laser wall, but before I mention them I need to be more clear on the idea as a whole. I simply don't think it was fleshed out enough in that thread from before.

[TheOlsenTwins]

I really like where this thread is going - but maybe it can be a bit simpler. (and more like the current system)

Couldnt we just have dedicated mine zones(where the current "desired mining places" are), where shapes of mines are shown at the beginning, and where you can make mines appear by using your (Advanced) Repair Gun on it. (kind of like the places where you could build GTs on FPI)

Depending on the idea either free or only usable with hottie/tech. (if you add some text like "use your repair gun to build defensive mines" it might also be understandable for newbies straigtaway.)

Also of course  hottie/tech no longer have other mines to use. (or only 2 like the AT guys) - and a per building limit should apply - but if you get a clear visual clue about this and where possible mining places are it should be understandable for everyone...

[boxes]

3 minutes ago, TheOlsenTwins said:

I really like where this thread is going - but maybe it can be a bit simpler. (and more like the current system)

Couldnt we just have dedicated mine zones(where the current "desired mining places" are), where shapes of mines are shown at the beginning, and where you can make mines appear by using your (Advanced) Repair Gun on it. (kind of like the places where you could build GTs on FPI)

Depending on the idea either free or only usable with hottie/tech. (if you add some text like "use your repair gun to build defensive mines" it might also be understandable for newbies straigtaway.)

Also of course  hottie/tech no longer have other mines to use. (or only 2 like the AT guys) - and a per building limit should apply - but if you get a clear visual clue about this and where possible mining places are it should be understandable for everyone...

This could be a good first step, smiply starting with some visual mechanic that lets players know where mines should be placed, like silhouetts appearing behind doors when you are currently holding proxy mines. We can expect to see less 'incorrect' mines this way, but later we will still need to address the issue of overmining.

[Guest once upon the time]

The whole discussion seems to me a little joke. I just imagine an illustrious circle talking about the procedure before to make others feel that their voices would be heard. The "discussion" about mines and also about credit is as old as the game, but has learned from it you do not.
What is really laying mines? If it is not in the eye of the viewer, it is important that the buildings are protected by mines.Celling Turrets are nice too.
You will never be able to do all things right, but the way it was started, that is old hat.

Sorry I could not change my name now, but thats defintly my last post.

regards

SilentKnight

[boxes]

4 minutes ago, ........... said:

The whole discussion seems to me a little joke. I just imagine an illustrious circle talking about the procedure before to make others feel that their voices would be heard. The "discussion" about mines and also about credit is as old as the game, but has learned from it you do not.
What is really laying mines? If it is not in the eye of the viewer, it is important that the buildings are protected by mines.Celling Turrets are nice too.
You will never be able to do all things right, but the way it was started, that is old hat.

The point of this thread is to reach a consensus on what mining should be, so we can settle this issue once and for all. Given what I wrote I didn't make it clear, but all suggestions are welcome and open for discussion.

Ceilling turrets is another thing that can be fleshed out more. If we're talking about what we had on HeXMouontain, but without proxy mines, infiltrating will either be impossible or completely stealthy depending on the structure. I shared my concerns about that in my reply to Agent.

[TheOlsenTwins]

36 minutes ago, boxes said:

This could be a good first step, smiply starting with some visual mechanic that lets players know where mines should be placed, like silhouetts appearing behind doors when you are currently holding proxy mines. We can expect to see less 'incorrect' mines this way, but later we will still need to address the issue of overmining.

What i meant was only allow the mining there and plant mines using your repair gun

[vandal33]

I don't like all infantry can purchase mines. I like how losing a barracks/hand of nod impacts base mining as well and any remaining technicians/hots are extremely valuable and how the other team would hunt down those last tech/hots.

[Xeon Wraith]

11 hours ago, boxes said:

I was really into that idea at first too (laser fences), but an issue somebody brought up is that it eliminates any interesting dynamics that players can utilize with mines, such as putting 2 in front of the ref and 4 in the back door. In this way for example, defenders when they see 4 mines down, have a good sense as to what building is in trouble. 

I really do like this conceptually, though it is a pretty niche strategy. Perhaps niche enough to abandon for a longterm solution? 

The building mines idea seems okay for directing mines where they're required though I'm concerned about tunnel mines. Personal mines could cover it in theory, though coordinating multiple players to restock them might prove to be frustrating. The exact opposite also possible. Getting a Adv.Engie with a tank is standard practice, a coordinated team can completely lock down a area for only a slightly delayed rollout.

 

43 minutes ago, boxes said:

Ceilling turrets is another thing that can be fleshed out more. If we're talking about what we had on HeXMouontain, but without proxy mines, infiltrating will either be impossible or completely stealthy depending on the structure. I shared my concerns about that in my reply to Agent.

It'd probably be more sensible just to have ceiling cameras which commander spot you in line-of-sight. Placement and team alert remains a concern though the interaction when detected is back to the players rather than static defence. Should give infiltrators more options than get shot and die. Also just seems more like a infiltration-type thing to have.

 

2 minutes ago, vandal33 said:

I don't like all infantry can purchase mines. I like how losing a barracks/hand of nod impacts base mining as well and any remaining technicians/hots are extremely valuable and how the other team would hunt down those last tech/hots.

Losing the Bar/HoN loses you access to:

• Advanced repairs for sustaining tanks,
• Snipers to OHK infantry,
• EMPs grenades to prevent tank rushes,
• SBH/Gunner rush options,
• and of course, mines to stop infiltration.

Losing those buildings is still incredibly painful for a team even without mines. Decoupling mines from it just helps makes those games where you lose Bar/HoN early more of a fight and lets the guys with Hotwires and Technicians  actually play the game.

 

                                   

Personally, I think mining does kinda feel more like a chore to do and maintain rather than a engaging mechanic. I'm more inclined to remove it, though I'll defer to the guys who do regularly play defence and infiltrate. 

On a semi-related note, having locked (hackable) doors is a old idea I've had. Haven't evaluated it, but it always seemed a bit silly there isn't any security tied to building doors in multiplayer.

[Guest Gliven]

Add zones in front of doors/windows that you can shoot with a reptool to place special building mines. The speed at which you can "place" mines depends on your rep gun level. You can adjust the speed for balance. If you lose the Bar/hon you lose access to hotwire/tech, so now it takes much longer to replace mines with just a regular engineer. Building mine limit will still show up, so infiltration stays the same.

At first i liked the idea of security doors that you had to hack into with a reptool/break with an emp grenade. But on maps with ramps, you can jump through the hon/air windows, so there goes that idea.

If we do end up adding mines as purchasable items. I suggest we make it so that they are a new class, and are destroy-able like AT mines.

I would even go so far as to remove mines from Techs and Hotwires. Remove the grenades from chem and mcfarland, and give them AP mines. Makes more sense to have anti-infantry units using anti-infantry mines.
 

[roweboat]

@boxes I understand your point regarding the "flexibility" of the current system. The potential for creativity with the mines and know how they can be used is interesting I agree. But really I only know of a few active players who understand to take advantage of this.

I've been playing the "C&C mode" for nearly 15 years. I "get" how the mining works. However, I question although it is an interesting system, is it too complex for a broad appeal?

I'm trying to look at it from a point of: Would simplifying base defense make the game more approachable and/or would it fundamentally change how the game is unique? Or could simplifying the base defense system, allow for other aspects of the gameplay to be improved or evolve somehow?

To me, I see that proximity mines = base defense, is akin to how snipers became the Anti-Air in the game originally. Westwood just couldn't come up with something better in time.

Pun intended here, I urge us to think outside the box lol

[boxes]

@roweboat Straightforward solutions can resolve this, and can work in place of the mine system we have right now. Interior turrets, laser walls, alarms, pre-set mines and other static defense ideas all are similar in that none requires player interaction as a pre-requisite in setting up a layer of defenses. We can go with one of these ideas, replace the mine count at the bottom with (alarms active: X, Lasers offline: X, Turrets offline: X, etc.). Implement any one of these systems and drop proxy mines completely or re-appropriate them, and I personally think we have something ready to replace the system we have now. What we would need to do next is adjust whatever system we choose so that infiltration remains one of the most exciting things to do, while defending won't feel too easy or difficult. 

Mines I feel are simple enough, at least for the doors. 3 mines per door will always do its job in any situation, and players should be given visual indicators along with the fact that three mines are the maximum amount they are allowed to carry. Player creativity towards mine usage comes later, which is worth mentioning that it is a merit that a static base defense system won't have. It gives base defenders more responsibility (not necessary a bad thing), and allows them to set up their line of defense the way they like it the most for each specific map.

[Guest]

Personal mines if added to every character makes my slutmines(when you mine in infantry paths) abusable to rediculous extent.. just putting this out there

[Madkill40]

I'd recommend naming the cabinet mines "<Barracks> Building/Door Mines"

<Barracks> = <Name of building they're in> 

"Building/Door Mines" tells the player the mines they're purchasing from the cabinet are specifically for the buidling they're in as well as the most ideal location to place the mines

Even if a new player doesn't figure it out straight away the naming of the cabinet mines can still help them figure out why they've disappeared from their inventory 

Perhaps for each building loss every other building gains an additional mine to use

Similarly it might be a good idea for mappers to modify how many mines can be used per cabinet, for flying maps specifically or maybe flying maps could just come with exterior proxy mine cabinets for the ramps etc?

Nonetheless, I like this mine cabinet idea and we should ignore redarmy's comment. (He eats food with a gun)

[Guest]

on a more serious note,

i wont go in a deep discussion, you lads said pretty much everything, the only thing that im worried about is the implemantation of Anything new.

Let me explain, a great and painful example would be the commander update, how everything was broken. Yes i know it was tested, but it was tested by either a selected few, or by ~10 people once. In a game this size i Personally dont think that it would be horrible to add beta updates into the live public game, not just one server that noone will actually go and test in a Public enviorment. A week for a big update beta wouldnt kill the game, and wouldnt scare off the players, and doing this once every 2-3months would be fine, again, In My Opinion.

The one thing i dont want to see is something like Bathesdas Fallout Online fiasco: "here, take this, you didnt want it but there it is"

Small steps guys, big updates in small steps.

[Moat]

For the extra confirmation, this discussion applies only for pug games right? Because you start with "Part 2 of 4 of post-pug discussions"

I thought one of the rules was that you need to listen. If some one does not listen you can't participate in the pug. 

[Trap]

1 hour ago, Moat said:

For the extra confirmation, this discussion applies only for pug games right? Because you start with "Part 2 of 4 of post-pug discussions"

I thought one of the rules was that you need to listen. If some one does not listen you can't participate in the pug. 

No, it's a discussion topic for changes to get implemented for everyone via a patch.

[Moat]

Edit: changed my mind, can't remove reply 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Moat

[Trap]

Rather difficult topic. Most oldschool Renegade players (such as I am) will want to keep the current mine system. But ofc it has it's huge downsides for new / unexperienced players.

If a "mine box / PT" is added, don't make mines too expansive. And if Hotwires & Technicians keep some proxies (which was suggested during the post-PUG discussion), don''t make them spam-able. Maybe 3 max / player (to use them for sneaking  / attacking).

Or add claymore mines for Hotties / Techies as @Havoc89 suggested (on Discord).

Edited November 29, 2018 by Neeez

[Madkill40]

If hotties/techs get personal mines either let them be destroyed by shooting them OR they auto-disarm if the hotty/tech is killed or switches to a different char instead.

The main reason for the latter is so a player can't just plant the mines then switch to a different char

Edited November 30, 2018 by Madkill40

[Cephyrus]

It´s quiet rare that i reply on a thread, but since it´s a very important topic for me, i will share my thoughts about it.

I like the idea of "silhouette-mines" seen on every door with like 3 mines/door. And that those mines can be purchased by every char for a "fair amount" of credits. So i was thinking of the following:

 

• "silhouette-mines" can be seen on the floor with a slowly flickering contour to indicate, if the mine is placed or need to be placed. (flickering = no mine is placed, like you experience in other games, where you can see the "ghost" contour of your object and if it is placeable or not)

• we need a simple user-friendly system to know how to place/replace mines in a building. Instead of using a cabinet i would prefer something else. I would suggest to "press and hold E" for like 1-2s per mine to "place" those mines. we can still use the mining animation, since it´s the same task. A simple and short info message will pop up, when you are in range (around 1-3m)  for example >>>  "press and hold !keybind! to place mine" <<< It should be in the same category like when you get close to the purchase terminal. To avoid interacting with the PT instead with mines, the delay of 1-2s is added and the range is restricted to a close area around the mining zone.

• to avoid "to dynamic changes per map-typ (flying/non-flying)/building" a mine should cost around 50 credits. It sounds pretty expensive, specialy at the start, BUT in compensate you will get 1VP(maybe 2VP) for every mine that is placed by the player. So "base-deff-player" have a higher chance to gain VP just by "maintaning" the base. And if people realise, that you get VP for replacing base mines in a building, the effort to replace those mines will be higher, since it´s some psychologically point of view too. If you can get something without much effort, people will do it.

 

Something about team/personal - mines:

I wouldn´t suggest to make mines a purchaseable item, it will cause to much problems with balancing, like buyable EMPs or carbines for hottys/techs, we have seen in the past.
Instead every "buyable-"char should be "unique" it it´s own way. AT- inf have mines, AP-inf have nades or mines. So i would suggest to remove the mines from hotty/techs in the weaponslot and place it in the "X-slot" like patch and every other char who use nades. So only hotty/techs are able to "tactically" place mines,  for deffending or even for attacking and covering ion/nuke beacons in a rush. MAX personal mine limit should be 3 (like mines for a door).

I agree on the team-mine display on the HUD. It sounds "fair" for a sneaker to "only" disarm 3 mines while there is a team mine counter + base deff player who will get a bounty for replacing disarmed mines, so even more people will take care of mines (in theory). And also some "unpredictable" mines from deff-player running around in the base.

Also i just want to remember everyone about something you hear sometimes in matches. People complain "how did we lost X-building?" Even the best base deffend like laser fence/mines/turrets will be useless when the team isn´t reacting to any team important infos like rushs/spies/mines/sbhs. So a mining "re-design" will help but not erase the chance to lose a builing in only 30s.