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Raveshaw and Sydney


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1 minute ago, Sarah! said:

Because we want a game where aim requires skill. Unless you want me running around as Mendoza 24/7.

 

My advice: if you keep dying in 1 hit, you have to 1 hit them first. Practice. Get better aim. Nobody starts as a poi

So the shotgun tactic counts as skill?

I.e. run up close as you can, strafe and shoot and headshot any character to instakill?

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6 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

So the shotgun tactic counts as skill?

I.e. run up close as you can, strafe and shoot and headshot any character to instakill?

If you're referring to my video demonstrating the changes of sniper spread, it is very rare that I (or anyone for that matter) gets those kind of kills. While it is easier to kill from close range than mid range, it is easier to kill the sniper from mid range, so don't let them get close. I also have a hard time getting close kills with ravs and pics myself.

 

Any character can kill a sniper, or anyone for that matter. It just depends on aim, skill and the level/situation.

 

Engagement circumstances and such are important.

Edited by Sarah!
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Just now, Sarah! said:

If you're referring to my video demonstrating the changes of sniper spread, it is very rare that I (or anyone for that matter) gets those kind of kills. While it is easier to kill from close range than mid range, it is easier to kill the sniper from mid range, so don't let them get close. I also have a hard time getting close kills with ravs and pics myself.

I was just speaking generally that this is a tactic adopted by any player with a Rav/Sydney.

Their guns shouldn't be blasting ragdolls like a ForcePush tho.

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4 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

I was just speaking generally that this is a tactic adopted by any player with a Rav/Sydney.

Their guns shouldn't be blasting ragdolls like a ForcePush tho.

I don't generally agree with this. Using a rav/syd gives some benefits from a regular sniper. The sidearm, the grenade and reload/antitank differences can save you.

 

Such as LakeSide. I usually don't get ramjets because I will easily get killed by an apache or orca. However, a sydney or rav can destroy an orca/apache in one clip. The characters serve me the same purpose, kills. It is generally the situation that dictates the character that I purchase, not the fight style that I want.

Edited by Sarah!
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1 hour ago, Sarah! said:

Because we want a game where aim requires skill. Unless you want me running around as Mendoza 24/7.

 

My advice: if you keep dying in 1 hit, you have to 1 hit them first. Practice. Get better aim. Nobody starts as a poi

ahem, i think if you cannot noscope easily it requiers more skill to kill players

 

i just think its too easy for raves and sydneys to kill infantries right now

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28 minutes ago, Wrench said:

ahem, i think if you cannot noscope easily it requiers more skill to kill players

 

i just think its too easy for raves and sydneys to kill infantries right now

When youre not zoomed in there's still a reticle that has to move over the person, and you have to click. Aim. 

 

People in this game have a bad case of running in a straight line at a target. You can't expect not to be shot when doing this. Even if they are maneuvering elusviely, fighting with cover and engaging at optimal and advantageous times are the best way to win a fight.

 

Also I'm pretty sure I have no idea what exact point you are going for, I can't really see the main idea of that last post, it's 6am here, I haven't slept and it could be worded a bit better 

Edited by Sarah!
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4 hours ago, Sarah! said:

Because we want a game where aim requires skill. Unless you want me running around as Mendoza 24/7.

Twitch reflexes are ONE skill. Tracking is another skill altogether. 

Twitch reflexes are what COD players have. Tracking skills are what true arena shooter players have. Both are separate skills, so get over yourself there. 

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20 hours ago, yosh56 said:

Twitch reflexes are ONE skill. Tracking is another skill altogether. 

Twitch reflexes are what COD players have. Tracking skills are what true arena shooter players have. Both are separate skills, so get over yourself there. 

Some people can't do it, some people who can practice can. Either way it requires a certain amount of training or natural ability, which is what I consider aim. And I can track with Doza? I don't see what your problem is. (Now that I understand what you're saying)

 

I don't think they're very different. You have to aim at the head or body and press the mouse button. I track people with my sniper when I'm doing long range, most of the up close kills are from luck. The same thing even if upclose with doza

Edited by Sarah!
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1 hour ago, yosh56 said:

You don't do math well do you? That's still ~600 damage... Which is more health than a heroic lcg. So it would literally be like no change at all. 

Figured as much so in that case, please reduce the headshot multiplier even more to something reasonable which isn't just OPAF, maybe to x1.5? Keep Ravs and Syds on the front against vehicles instead of in the tunnels against EVERYONE and let them do a bit more damage to heavy vehicles by increasing the Heavy Vehicle Multiplier to x0.529

 

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1 hour ago, poi said:

pic/raves having spread will be perfect. 

Honestly one of my thoughts. And maybe knock down the hs multiplier still since it it still has the major advantage over the ramjet of being able to eat vehicles. 

 

2 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

do a bit more damage to heavy vehicles by increasing the Heavy Vehicle Multiplier to x0.529

... Do you just throw random numbers out? They already do more than enough to vehicles considering they, unlike LCGs and to a lesser extent Gunners, can do their damage and be relatively safe by hugging a wall. 

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Just now, yosh56 said:

... Do you just throw random numbers out? They already do more than enough to vehicles considering they, unlike LCGs and to a lesser extent Gunners, can do their damage and be relatively safe by hugging a wall. 

I estimate (albeit rough estimation) but I also go on your word about the multipliers not being as one might think, i.e. x3 = 600, x2 = 400, x1 = 200 therefore x.05 = 150? Is that 200+150 or 200 -50 = 150? It is hard to estimate so alls I can do is guestimate until you're like "You know what MAAADDKIILLL ... ?  You actually make sense there"

But for the blood of Kane reduce their headshot multiplier. Spread of Railgun/PIC 0.05? (Seeing as how the Ramjet is 0.15)

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30 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

I estimate (albeit rough estimation) but I also go on your word about the multipliers not being as one might think, i.e. x3 = 600, x2 = 400, x1 = 200 therefore x.05 = 150? Is that 200+150 or 200 -50 = 150?

https://renx.wiki/wiki/Railgun

I guess x.05  = x0.5 ? well, 200 base dmg, so half of that = 100 dmg.

 

 

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An idea I had was to have the beam being active for 0.5-1 seconds, doing the same total amount of damage but over 0.5-1 seconds, and you'd have to track your target while shooting.

But that might be a better idea for a totally different gun. I like the PIC/Railgun the way they are at the moment, the popping out of cover and shooting is one of the major aspects of their classes, and I find it very satisfying to do.

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TBH I think rav's and syndeys are OK. My main concern is that IF we nerf them, doza's and mob's will just roll over all infantry. There should be some skill rewarding classes. I understand the this is a community of vastly different experience, some of us have been playing for years, others for months. Those playing for years, and dedicating the time to learn the mechanics should have ways to "out play" the less skilled. The sniper nerf was definitely needed. Perhaps instead of adding spread to rav/syd we could decrease their range a bit OR decrease their damage as range increases?

As I write this the more  I think about it, I really believe that last idea may have some merit. Make rav/syd damage decrease with increasing range. What do you all think? 

Edit 1: ok perhaps the damage multiplier should decrease with range. If the damage alone does, they may become less effective vs vehicles.

Edited by Psypher
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1 hour ago, Psypher said:

TBH I think rav's and syndeys are OK. My main concern is that IF we nerf them, doza's and mob's will just roll over all infantry. There should be some skill rewarding classes. I understand the this is a community of vastly different experience, some of us have been playing for years, others for months. Those playing for years, and dedicating the time to learn the mechanics should have ways to "out play" the less skilled. The sniper nerf was definitely needed. Perhaps instead of adding spread to rav/syd we could decrease their range a bit OR decrease their damage as range increases?

As I write this the more  I think about it, I really believe that last idea may have some merit. Make rav/syd damage decrease with increasing range. What do you all think? 

Edit 1: ok perhaps the damage multiplier should decrease with range. If the damage alone does, they may become less effective vs vehicles.

Could'nt've said it better myself.

Except most of the time, killing in tuns with rav/syd is exclusively up close.

Edited by Sarah!
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Just gives Raveshaw's and Sydney's alternative scattershot and make their primary beam against vehicles do very little damage to infantry, whereas their alternative scattershot does moderate damage to infantry and very little damage to vehicles. 

Scattershot has a massive reduction in range compared to the beam shot but infantry thinking they can get up-close-and-personal have got another thing coming, this will make Raveshaw's and Sydney's pretty lethal once inside a building but no more lethal than a Doza/Mobius or Sakura/Havoc in the hands of someone who can aim. Scattershot should have a wide spread, the closer you are the more damage you will inflict to a singular target and the further you are the more chance you will do less than full damage to numerous targets grouped too close to one another.

Base damage of scattershot can still be 200, but just 10 pellets of 20 all firing at once. (headshot multiplier of x2, just like the shotgunner)

Alternatively, Sydney gets the scattershot and Raveshaw could just have a red-coloured spray of some kind with many similar stats to the Scattershot.

Since we still want them to be Anti-Tankers but decent against infantry. Two birds. One stone. Want something moderate range against infantry? Switch to your sidearm or be a Doza/Mobius. At least then against infantry we have 1 1k long-range, 1 1k moderate to close range and 1 1k CQC, each an ideal counter to one another in the right environment and all still effective infantry for 1k.

Making Sakura/Havoc ideally being the only class in the game which can 1-shot any other infantry class without completely nerfing another class at infantry-combat.

Edit: 1k characters base stats are finely balanced, just the Rav/Syd weapon need this final little tuning'up.

Edited by Madkill40
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The scattershot idea is "cool". But IMO it takes away much of the reward for skill. Also I'm not knowledgeable to comment on specific multipliers, damages, and ranges. BUT I do believe in incremental changes. Small changes, and see if they work. Rather not go crazy on the rework of a much loved class.

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2 hours ago, Sarah! said:

Except most of the time, killing in tuns with rav/syd is exclusively up close.

IF the player skill levels are equal, shouldn't mobs/dozas have the advantage over rav/syd at close range (plz feel free to correct me if i'm wrong)? I personally struggle with consistency at close range with rav/syd. So perhaps this will balance out their ability to act as "no scope snipers" at midrange. BUT I am just theory crafting, I don't have any experience with the in-code numbers/multipliers/spread data.

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On 9/28/2017 at 4:14 AM, Henk said:

An idea I had was to have the beam being active for 0.5-1 seconds, doing the same total amount of damage but over 0.5-1 seconds, and you'd have to track your target while shooting.

But that might be a better idea for a totally different gun. I like the PIC/Railgun the way they are at the moment, the popping out of cover and shooting is one of the major aspects of their classes, and I find it very satisfying to do.

If this change is implemented,  syd and rav will become sniper fodder. Any sniper worth the name just has to point at the center of the blue/red line and click. Would also likely cause many players to stand still to try and maximize their shot... again bang dead lol.

Cool idea though. I love lasers. 

Edited by Psypher
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17 hours ago, Psypher said:

The scattershot idea is "cool". But IMO it takes away much of the reward for skill.

And imo using "skill" as an excuse to not to rework a weapon (i.e. scattershot) to better balance how most ravs/syds are used in combat sounds like elitist bullshit whih deserves no reward. 

Well done, you timed your shot at the right time and achieved an instakill. Its not skill, its finding an excuse to not change what is imbalanced as shit against most infantry and applying the same changes to the ramjet to the rav/syd seems half-assed.

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On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:16 AM, Sarah! said:

If you're referring to my video demonstrating the changes of sniper spread, it is very rare that I (or anyone for that matter) gets those kind of kills. While it is easier to kill from close range than mid range, it is easier to kill the sniper from mid range, so don't let them get close. I also have a hard time getting close kills with ravs and pics myself.

 

Any character can kill a sniper, or anyone for that matter. It just depends on aim, skill and the level/situation.

 

Engagement circumstances and such are important.

Some of us tried, 5v1, to kill snipers, failed, were told to "just try harder and get better", and decided if we can't even meet the first threshold of beating a single sniper with a quarter of a team on the job...

...that instead of trying, it'd be more useful to spend time practicing on bending spoons with our minds.

I mean, it's like trying to come at a mobile character with 3 chances at instakill, using a character that can only chip, when health drops are also a thing that exist. If this were a Street Fighter tournament, this character would've been banned, just saying.

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22 minutes ago, YagiHige said:

Some of us tried, 5v1, to kill snipers, failed, were told to "just try harder and get better", and decided if we can't even meet the first threshold of beating a single sniper with a quarter of a team on the job...

...that instead of trying, it'd be more useful to spend time practicing on bending spoons with our minds.

I mean, it's like trying to come at a mobile character with 3 chances at instakill, using a character that can only chip, when health drops are also a thing that exist. If this were a Street Fighter tournament, this character would've been banned, just saying.

5 soldiers vs 1 sakura? Theres 0 chance a sakura wins against 5 patches or 5 mobiuses.

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3 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

And imo using "skill" as an excuse to not to rework a weapon (i.e. scattershot) to better balance how most ravs/syds are used in combat sounds like elitist bullshit whih deserves no reward. 

Well done, you timed your shot at the right time and achieved an instakill. Its not skill, its finding an excuse to not change what is imbalanced as shit against most infantry and applying the same changes to the ramjet to the rav/syd seems half-assed.

You sound rather angry and offended by this. When I started playing RenX again, I sucked. Seriously, I hadn't played shooters in years, my skills had atrophied quite an embarrassing amount.  I didn't bitch and moan and attack other community members. I practiced. I talked to better players. I listened to what they said. I got better. I still am doing so.

How often do you play as a rav or syd? Are you one of the players who can hold off a whole 5 man squad? If so then we should consider your advice, since you clearly know rav/syd. If not, perhaps you should play rav/syd for awhile. I gotta tell ya, I kill more rav/syds than any other 1000 cred class. So many people hop on them thinking they are gunna one hit KO everything. 

2ndly. timing your shot is EVERYTHING in renegade. How do you think POI and others do so much damage with doza? They time the bullets. Each. Individual. Bullet. It most definitely is a skill. It most definitely is a game mechanic.  It's one of the harder mechanics to learn in renegade, I'm still TERRIBLE at it. I'm learning, perhaps instead of attacking other community members you could try learning.

Finally you can get a 1 shot kill with a missile launcher... Should we make missile launchers have scatter shot? /s

Hell I think you can 1 shot kill with the grenade launcher... Should we remove all 1 shot kills?

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Officers. And given approach of cover from the x-mountain bunker from the only approachable paths, it happened. several times. Also prevents airstrikes from being effective either.

I ended up really feeling like in situations like that, being smart enough to know when to quit is a form of getting good, and I got real good at it.

As far as removing all one-shots, I'd say if you can't at least reduce them from working on full health or at least requiring some additional damage or at least not 1-hitting the high-health 1k units or Kevlar-based anti-infantry units... then reduce the durability of snipers where the ttk one isn't high enough to provide backpedalling and hipfire instakills against even groups of enemies. It's the difference in ttk, from "instant", to "six seconds".

In other insta-kill games, the ttk with other weapons is 2 second, or 4 bullets from a 2.0 rof automatic-weapon.

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3 hours ago, YagiHige said:

Officers. And given approach of cover from the x-mountain bunker from the only approachable paths, it happened. several times. Also prevents airstrikes from being effective either.

I ended up really feeling like in situations like that, being smart enough to know when to quit is a form of getting good, and I got real good at it.

I was actually playing XMountain today; MRLS. If you can't kill the sniper, hide better when you're repping.

I still don't see why some people can't rein in their egos and accept that maybe some people are better than them; while I'm not entirely against the nerf, just food for thought.

And yes, ignoring them can fix the problem most of the times

Edited by Sarah!
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I mean, if some people are better than me, as sniper, versus every other class in the game, and that decides every match, then I can accept it.

Part of accepting it, is knowing the game's already decided, so I should go watch a football game such as the Texans vs Patriots, that has better odds of different outcomes than the sniper situation in RenX.

By that logic, I'm almost accepting it, better than the people who are in denial that snipers aren't heavily influencing the game.

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3 minutes ago, YagiHige said:

I mean, if some people are better than me, as sniper, versus every other class in the game, and that decides every match, then I can accept it.

Part of accepting it, is knowing the game's already decided, so I should go watch a football game such as the Texans vs Patriots, that has better odds of different outcomes than the sniper situation in RenX.

By that logic, I'm almost accepting it, better than the people who are in denial that snipers aren't heavily influencing the game.

I haven't seen you play in quite some time, I still don't think that snipers win games. 

 

Take this Under game for example.

RTXH3QTsQgSyVkdRjdb2BQ.png

While I did achieve a good score (you could say I "won" the game by always killing reps), it was due in part to Crowsy who supported me through most of the game on the infantry path.

The major part was that our tankers and reps were able to pin in GDI in their base, which enabled me to influence the game by sniping reps and distract tanks and infantry. 

Edited by Sarah!
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They used to not to, and then suddenly they did, not sure what the case now is, playing RenX doesn't meet some deadlines I'm working against right now though. Then again, neither does sleeping and drinking, so I have other problems as well. Such as a work schedule on Saturdays that mostly prevents me from even considering attending a PUG the last 3 months.

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3 hours ago, Psypher said:

I kill more rav/syds than any other 1000 cred class.

Doesn't mean they're not OP. If you're talking about infantry combat then they should be the easiest to kill since they are leaning more towards the anti-tank role. If you're driving a vehicle, rav/syd are more likely to appear in your sights (since these AT units will openly engage you) so you could have more chance killing them as vehicle drivers too.

But really, skill is no excuse imo. We want this game to be nice to new players, and rav/syd are powerful if you have good timing and aiming. Mendozas rolling other infantry? They are supposed to be highest tier infantry strong against everything but still lose to rav/syd's effectiveness vs tanks. You can still kill mendoza by rushing him with basic infantry or 1v1 him with mobius or havoc. Sydney can still kill him at med-long range, the problem is sydney is still doing it at close range a lot easier than he should even if both sidney and mendosa are equally skilled.

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2 hours ago, Sarah! said:

I still don't see why some people can't rein in their egos and accept that maybe some people are better than them; while I'm not entirely against the nerf, just food for though.

Agreed. I think something is needed. Let's just wait and trust our devs. They did bring us this great game back!

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16 minutes ago, vandal33 said:

Doesn't mean they're not OP. If you're talking about infantry combat then they should be the easiest to kill since they are leaning more towards the anti-tank role. If you're driving a vehicle, rav/syd are more likely to appear in your sights (since these AT units will openly engage you) so you could have more chance killing them as vehicle drivers too.

But really, skill is no excuse imo. We want this game to be nice to new players, and rav/syd are powerful if you have good timing and aiming. Mendozas rolling other infantry? They are supposed to be highest tier infantry strong against everything but still lose to rav/syd's effectiveness vs tanks. You can still kill mendoza by rushing him with basic infantry or 1v1 him with mobius or havoc. Sydney can still kill him at med-long range, the problem is sydney is still doing it at close range a lot easier than he should even if both sidney and mendosa are equally skilled.

They do need a nerf. They are a bit too effective. I completely agree. I just am leery of certain changes suggested in this thread.

Mob/doza do need a good counter, currently it's syd/rav. I fear disrupting this balance.

Also at close range, with equal skill doza shouldn't probably even take damage from a havoc. Furthermore, free units vs top tier units like doza... I've rarely seen the free units win, not sure what your basing that from. A good doza can probably kill 5 soldiers with a single clip of ammo. (Math not checked)

I should mention I kill syd and ravs with the 500 cred snipers, not tanks. Very few players threaten the 1 hit kill with them. Most go for bodysuit then pistol finish.

Edited by Psypher
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1 hour ago, Psypher said:

free units vs top tier units like doza... I've rarely seen the free units win, not sure what your basing that from. A good doza can probably kill 5 soldiers with a single clip of ammo. (Math not checked)

I meant to say is free units can win if they attack mendoza with help from other free units, it's an RTS style FPS game, tier 3 infantry are supposed to win against free infantry, unless the free infantry attack in a group or win by attrition when the 1000cred infantry is low health, not by 1v1.

I've seen 3 soldiers beat a mendoza before, that's how teams without barracks manage to survive heavy character rush, it's just that teamwork is rare in this game as everybody prefers to buy 1k/snipers/sbh and go solo. That's why raveshaw and sydney needs some kind of nerf, they are too versatile: they can 1v1 any infantry, they are the best anti-tank character, they can easily take down a building by themselves (not as swift or stealthy as technicians or hotwires, but still dangerously effective) and they can disarm proximity C4s.

While I'm in favor with more alternatives to counter mendoza/mobius, I feel that rav/sid are already too powerful, I've seen them being infantry-killers than anti-tank in many games. It's too easy to hit someone, and their pistol can finish off enemies that got hit by the pic/railgun.

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If you can get a kill without having to use the mouse it is lazy aiming and not counted as a skill, but that is just me. (I have been able to do this numerous times with a Syd/Rav, but I don't make a habit of doing it for 70% of the game.

12 hours ago, Psypher said:

Are you one of the players who can hold off a whole 5 man squad? If so then we should consider your advice, since you clearly know rav/syd. If not, perhaps you should play rav/syd for awhile. I gotta tell ya, I kill more rav/syds than any other 1000 cred class.

That seems pretty elitist to me, not wanting to listen to a player who may or may not be able to do as well as others in one specific scenario with a class. I can hold my own if I 'a'n'd' correctly. Not going to brag about being able to do it coz hitscan, every character is pretty much the same height and I don't need to use the mouse at the same time, its just lazy aiming combined with timing. My timing is a skill, that is to say I have skill in my timing but me getting the kill isn't skillful just by proxy of good timing because I was barely having to aim and that is the problem. Makes it seem more luck-based. This shouldn't really be possible.

Also, based on your words, it seems like any change to the long-rang instakill attack would really be terrible for you to try harder with a sniper rifle instead... As you seem to use the Railgun/PIC exactly how people used the sniper rifles before their nerf? Classy you.

A type of scattershot for that close-range kill just means that the long-range beam wouldn't be as effective against infantry as it currently is but a trade-off instead of a full-on nerf seems like a better option for every player. As it stands right now the only way to be safe from Ravs/Syds is to be out of range of their attack, because if you are within range (long, moderate or close) they are always of equal effectiveness at killing you. This is problematic. 

Trade-off is better than a full-on nerf by the sounds of it. CQC is not fully inherited by any 1k character and I think it would suit the rav/syds at this point very much to have a scattershot attack with their main weapon, or they have a nerf to their main weapon against infantry and their sidearm is a shotgun. Either would do.

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