Hotwire/Technician Nerf

[Hohndo]

8 hours ago, Steelpoint said:

Why not spawn Hotwire/Tech with a Silenced Machine Pistol and offer them the ability to buy a alternative weapon. 

For example they could spend 500 credits to buy a Heavy Pistol.

Its far more justifiable for a Hotwire/Tech to be able to hold their ground or be on the offensive if the total cost for them is 850+ credits than just 350 credits (this is excluding ideas of buying explosives)

The point of this whole thread is they already do too much. We're not trying to make them more versatile than they already are.

[boxes]

I'm against completely removing HottieTech ability to destroy buildings in one infiltration attempt. Sneaking is indeed a fun dynamic to mess around with and should still be possible to pull off, but not to the extent right now. Removing the ability to destroy a building removes the excitement that people experience. What should be focused on instead is a change in the mentality. Right now, it's like "I'm just going to keep trying through different infantry paths until this works and I'll be a hero", to "Okay I'm wasting money, I'll focus on taking the field instead". 

We could also try increasing infantry brightness if possible. Too easy to miss a hotwire running at the edge of your screen when you're focusing on something else. 

[Sn4ke]

2 hours ago, ObeliskTheTormentor said:

I was talking about the sound when the mine is being disarmed(when someone is firing with the repairgun at the mine),not the sound you hear at the moment the mine disappears.

I know but you suggested that the sound could be heard everywhere in the base

and my reply is: you have a COUNTER to indicate that.

[Hohndo]

1 hour ago, CampinJeff said:

I'm against completely removing HottieTech ability to destroy buildings in one infiltration attempt. Sneaking is indeed a fun dynamic to mess around with and should still be possible to pull off, but not to the extent right now. Removing the ability to destroy a building removes the excitement that people experience. What should be focused on instead is a change in the mentality. Right now, it's like "I'm just going to keep trying through different infantry paths until this works and I'll be a hero", to "Okay I'm wasting money, I'll focus on taking the field instead". 

We could also try increasing infantry brightness if possible. Too easy to miss a hotwire running at the edge of your screen when you're focusing on something else. 

Which is why I think the purchasable c4 is a great idea. Because adding a 2nd c4 for 600 credits seems like a reasonable trade-off.

Alternatively, I would be okay with locking it out at Veteran or Elite VP level but Heroic is too much.

Heroic might be reasonable-ish for PUG, but most people don't only play PUG on the weekends.

[Madkill40]

Silenced Pistol nerfed Hotties/Techies when defending the base, but it ensured their role was to repair buildings and vehicles rather than trying to attack players directly unless they were at 25% health or lower. An ineffective trait for a unit that is often left defending a base solo.

Heavy Pistol does give Hotties/Techies enough firepower to be effective offensively and defensively, so maybe remove the headshot bonus from the Heavy Pistol? Reduces their overall offensive effectiveness against 1000 credit infantry at the very least.

Hotties/Techies are the RTS-style 'Commando' with their Heavy Pistol and the ability to destroy an unattended building in one go which seems to be the gripe when 350 credits can enable players to accomplish all of this, but as upping their cost is a no-go they need something removed.

When H/T had an automatic weapon as a sidearm they were too strong.

The only option that hasn't be tried is the removal of the 2nd Timed C4.

 

Seriously. 

Remove the 2nd Timed C4 and remove the headshot multiplier from the Heavy Pistol;

Why? Because when infiltrating the base with a Hottie/Techie the first time would weaken a building, if you make it to the same building a second time [Legit your enemy teams' fault in that case] then that building is as good as dead. This would be the penalty of SOLOING in a TEAM-BASED game with a SUPPORT class-based character. 

This ^ Is what would make the game fair for all players, it doesn't take away from the fact that you got perma-damage in your solo-conquest leaving that building weak for your team to kill off and if you have somebody else with you with that 2nd Timed C4 then you are team-playing. 

Are you an elite player and really want that building kill? Team up with one other person and go for it! Don't want to team up in a team-based game? Think you're doing it all for your team anyway? Okay! Do it twice! Make that kill really worth it and show that team what you're really made of! Heck! The second time a decent infantry rush would be more effective! Yay! more than one tactic! Woooooo!

 

Now then, let's remove heads from asses and stop with this greed for glory of "soloing" a building all by yourself, it hurts Renegade-X. (Seriously)

Renegade-X is a team-based game and as such there should be penalties for soloing. [Example: Penalty for solo-beacons is nobody to defend them immediately] 

Remove 2nd Timed C4 from H/T and take another player with you, still don't want to? Okay, your penalty is to solo that building twice if you have that much greed for glory. 

Just one player's satisfaction is something nobody should have to give a god damn Trump about when you have an entire team unsatisfied by one player killing their building without so much as a handicap.

7 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Removing the ability to destroy a building removes the excitement that people experience.

You can still destroy a building but you'll just have to put more effort into it if you're planning on doing it all on your own.

 

IF THIS IS ALL TOO MUCH FOR THE GREEDZ

_________________TL;DR;IAC_____________________

 

Then lets put a LOUDer BEEP 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, BEEP 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, BEEP 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, BEEP 1, 2, 3, 4,  BEEP 1, 2, 3, BEEP 1, 2, BEEP 1, BEEP- BEEP- BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEBEBEBEBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP-***BOOM!

This BEEP being something you can hear from a substantial distance away, Example: C&C Under; T-C4 is on Nod's PP MCT; You can only just hear the BEEP faintly from the Airstrip Door.

Combine this with the mine counter and defenders will have a better idea of where to go. We've been wanting a sound indicator, right? Timed C4 "BEEP"'s are probably the best sound to increase in volume. [Y'know, since the mine disarm sound fell flat]

T-C4s are so quiet until they explode, this is wrong. Your infiltration should stop upon placement of the Timed C4, not when the Timed C4 has exploded. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Madkill40

[Hohndo]

I don't agree with the above. Prior to getting the heavy pistol the penalty for soloing with a support class was the fact you could get demolished by just about every other infantry and vehicle in the game if you were caught. That's why you sneak around. Going in larger groups is also often riskier.

You could also argue that the other team should be defending so that a solo won't work. That requires team work as well, but we aren't criticizing them for allowing it to happen. Just about every game I see a attempt at sneaking and a attempt at base defense. I usually do one of these two things. I'm good at sneaking, so in turn, I know how to defend against it most of the time.

Sure, Hotwire/Tech are overpowered, but the reason they are not broken is because both teams have the same opportunities to do the same thing.

I'm still going to argue that them being able to blow up a building should not be taken away, but it either needs a much more significant less spamable cost through a purchaseable c4, or a damage reduction to the Elite VP level.

[Steelpoint]

Removing the head shot bonus from the Heavy Pistol would seem inconsistent with most other weaponry in the game, yeah you can get a headshot with the basic Raptor Rifle but you can't with this Pistol?

Just remove their additional Timed C4 and make it something you have to buy for credits if a change must be made.

[Redarmy]

12 minutes ago, Steelpoint said:

Removing the head shot bonus from the Heavy Pistol would seem inconsistent with most other weaponry in the game

Didn't the Chem Thrower recently lose the ability to headshot? Also, it is pretty un-intuitive for it to not have bonus HS damage, doing something like this could turn newer players away from the game.

[Madkill40]

The heavy pistol does considerable damage on it's own without HS damage, as it is a pistol it not doing HS damage seems acceptable simply because it has a higher base damage anyway and it's also a sidearm. 

As nice as a 2nd purchasable Timed C4 would be it seems the only way it'd be possible is to allow any/all units to purchase a second timed C4 via the items menu, in which case make that second Timed 700 Credits. (100 credits short of an Airstike)

I still recommend increasing the volume of the Timed C4 'Beeps' for defender purposes because otherwise the game will feel stupid and broken due to the fact that you don't know you've been infiltrated until you lose a building, which is a stupid, inconsiderate and unfair penalty to defenders against infiltrators who have the easiest time because they rely on human stupidity which no game is ever short on.

[Hohndo]

6 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

As nice as a 2nd purchasable Timed C4 would be it seems the only way it'd be possible is to allow any/all units to purchase a second timed C4 via the items menu, in which case make that second Timed 700 Credits. (100 credits short of an Airstike)

I still recommend increasing the volume of the Timed C4 'Beeps' for defender purposes because otherwise the game will feel stupid and broken due to the fact that you don't know you've been infiltrated until you lose a building, which is a stupid, inconsiderate and unfair penalty to defenders against infiltrators who have the easiest time because they rely on human stupidity which no game is ever short on.

I already made a suggestion regarding the purchaseable c4 on all characters. I suggested a 800/1000 price point for it just because it makes all units more versatile, and thus make hotwire/tech not such a big deal since everything else would be bring closer to their level.

However, what I want to happen, and I'm told it's possible but needs to be coded in, the c4 can be made to be purchasable only to hotwire/tech. Which would be the best solution, I think. I was thinking a 600/800 price point for this.

Because even if you lock it out to higher VP levels, it's still spamable once they get there.

I fully support louder c4 ticks. However, if it's going to be easier to find, it needs to be longer to disarm. I don't think I'd want to touch eng disarm time just because if he didn't catch it right away, then usually he doesn't disarm it. Hotwire/tech would need to be lowered.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Hohndo

[Madkill40]

7 hours ago, Hohndo said:

I fully support louder c4 ticks. However, if it's going to be easier to find, it needs to be longer to disarm. I don't think I'd want to touch eng disarm time just because if he didn't catch it right away, then usually he doesn't disarm it. Hotwire/tech would need to be lowered.

That's a bridge better crossed when we come to it, one change at a time to better understand any further issues because 1 engineer already takes a while to disarm a Timed C4 and engineers are quite slow.

 

This one change could make all the difference and given the way this thread has gone it would seem to appease everyone to just increase the Timed C4 volume ticks/beeps. 

Pros: Less adjustments for Yosh, H/T keep their 2nd Timed, defenders have a better chance, infiltration isn't entirely nerfed

Cons: May require further adjustments to better balance infiltrators Vs defenders.

And maybe remove the headshot multiplier from the heavy pistol as well? 

Why do sidearms even have headshot multipliers? If you're in a support role they're good to deter attackers enough to escape them, why have that added offensive bonus to a sidearm? [Just curious]

[vandal33]

I am in favor of them being to kill a building in a single infiltration but I really dislike them having heavy pistols. I wanted tech/hw to be weak in on-foot combat, like a single soldier or shotgun trooper can be a huge threat to them, now I see techs killing soldiers/shtgunners with ease. A standard silenced pistol is enough for them. They can still defend themselves lightly, against weakened infantry or maybe sometimes against snipers/AT soldiers at close range if the user is good, but if you're really good, heavy pistols can 1v1 against them much easier than it should.

[boxes]

42 minutes ago, vandal33 said:

I am in favor of them being to kill a building in a single infiltration but I really dislike them having heavy pistols. I wanted tech/hw to be weak in on-foot combat, like a single soldier or shotgun trooper can be a huge threat to them, now I see techs killing soldiers/shtgunners with ease. A standard silenced pistol is enough for them. They can still defend themselves lightly, against weakened infantry or maybe sometimes against snipers/AT soldiers at close range if the user is good, but if you're really good, heavy pistols can 1v1 against them much easier than it should.

Remote C4s are a significant offensive weapon as well, more so the reason that they should get silenced pistols 

[Xeon Wraith]

A bit before my time (I think?) but wasn't there a period where 2 timed and 2 remotes were just enough to kill a building - so that defenders could briefly repair a building to prevent destruction? Reverting back to those damage numbers seems like a fair way of nerfing sneaking effectiveness. A team that notices mines dropping and reacts in time should be punished less than one that fails to notice entirely. Losing the majority of a building's hp already applies a heavy amount of pressure on defenders and any medium sized rush should be able to finish the job. Veterancy should be able to scale the damage back to normal values at later ranks, though will require sneakers to actively contribute to the team beforehand. 

Removing the heavy pistol would also increase the effectiveness of other infantry at anti-repairs, which is currently dominated by snipers.

On a side note, I don't really know why Technicians/Hotwires can carry a heavy pistol with 7 pieces of C4 and a repair gun. Just sayin'.

[Axesor]

What about giving them SMG instead of heavy pistol or silenced pistol? Or do you think that SMG is more powerful than heavy pistol?

[Sn4ke]

Heavy Pistol > SMG

[Sn4ke]

51 minutes ago, Xeon Wraith said:

A bit before my time (I think?) but wasn't there a period where 2 timed and 2 remotes were just enough to kill a building - so that defenders could briefly repair a building to prevent destruction?

with patch 5.281 (or .280 ?) techies & hotties got a nerf. on Recruit they destroy a building - IF noone is repairing it - if the anyone repairs the building, the Building will have 0,001 (dunno, at least more than 0 health) health left. So the enemy CAN counter a sneaker.

But only on recruit.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[Hohndo]

1 hour ago, Xeon Wraith said:

A bit before my time (I think?) but wasn't there a period where 2 timed and 2 remotes were just enough to kill a building - so that defenders could briefly repair a building to prevent destruction? Reverting back to those damage numbers seems like a fair way of nerfing sneaking effectiveness. A team that notices mines dropping and reacts in time should be punished less than one that fails to notice entirely. Losing the majority of a building's hp already applies a heavy amount of pressure on defenders and any medium sized rush should be able to finish the job. Veterancy should be able to scale the damage back to normal values at later ranks, though will require sneakers to actively contribute to the team beforehand. 

Removing the heavy pistol would also increase the effectiveness of other infantry at anti-repairs, which is currently dominated by snipers.

On a side note, I don't really know why Technicians/Hotwires can carry a heavy pistol with 7 pieces of C4 and a repair gun. Just sayin'.

The damage at Recruit is already at that level. If you have a repair gun anywhere on the building, you'll save it most of the time. Just depends on the timing of the hotwire/tech blowing the remote c4.

[Terekhov]

15 hours ago, Xeon Wraith said:

A bit before my time (I think?) but wasn't there a period where 2 timed and 2 remotes were just enough to kill a building - so that defenders could briefly repair a building to prevent destruction? Reverting back to those damage numbers seems like a fair way of nerfing sneaking effectiveness. A team that notices mines dropping and reacts in time should be punished less than one that fails to notice entirely. Losing the majority of a building's hp already applies a heavy amount of pressure on defenders and any medium sized rush should be able to finish the job. Veterancy should be able to scale the damage back to normal values at later ranks, though will require sneakers to actively contribute to the team beforehand. 

Removing the heavy pistol would also increase the effectiveness of other infantry at anti-repairs, which is currently dominated by snipers.

On a side note, I don't really know why Technicians/Hotwires can carry a heavy pistol with 7 pieces of C4 and a repair gun. Just sayin'.

Definitely like the part about teams noticing not being punished as much.

Don't you dare take her heavy pistol

 

What about something like (taking off someone's idea ealier):

Hotwire/Technician:

• Heavy Pistol
• Prox Mines
• Repair Gun
• Smoke Grenade or Anti-tank mine

Commando:

• Remote C4 (x2)
• Timed C4 (x2)
• 1 airstrike (purchase to refill)
• No bounding box until you're closer than X distance
• Silenced pistol with the range of a heavy pistol, or maybe SMG?

 

Would be nice if only certain classes - say SBH/Commando and Techie/Hotwire - could use airstrikes. They get spammed a bit much in PUGs right now imo

Edited February 3, 2017 by Terekhov

[Hohndo]

5 hours ago, Terekhov said:

Definitely like the part about teams noticing not being punished as much.

Don't you dare take her heavy pistol

 

What about something like (taking off someone's idea ealier):

Hotwire/Technician:

• Heavy Pistol
• Prox Mines
• Repair Gun
• Smoke Grenade or Anti-tank mine

Commando:

• Remote C4 (x2)
• Timed C4 (x2)
• 1 airstrike (purchase to refill)
• No bounding box until you're closer than X distance
• Silenced pistol with the range of a heavy pistol, or maybe SMG?

 

Would be nice if only certain classes - say SBH/Commando and Techie/Hotwire - could use airstrikes. They get spammed a bit much in PUGs right now imo

Adding a addition class is already out of the question according to at least one Dev.

I don't want to add any classes, either.

[Madkill40]

15 hours ago, Terekhov said:

Would be nice if only certain classes - say SBH/Commando and Techie/Hotwire - could use airstrikes. They get spammed a bit much in PUGs right now imo

If a player on your team uses an airstrike, the rest of the team has to wait a certain amount of time before another Airstrike can be used. If you feel this range of time should be increased then I suggest making another thread about it. 

 

In other news: 

Ukill has made a mutator which removes the second Timed C4, as a gameplay test it would be interesting to see how much of a change this brings to a standard game of RenX at least for *a day, maybe we could use it for just the PUG? Or apply it to one of the CT servers for a day? [If the latter an IRC-announcement would need to appear for a few days beforehand to inform players so they don't assume it's a bug] 

For those who think this will make RenX better/worse, let's give it a try before any permanent changes are made to the base game. 

The usefulness of mutators.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Madkill40

[Hohndo]

1 hour ago, Madkill40 said:

 

Ukill has made a mutator which removes the second Timed C4, as a gameplay test it would be interesting to see how much of a change this brings to a standard game of RenX at least for *a day, maybe we could use it for just the PUG? Or apply it to one of the CT servers for a day? [If the latter an IRC-announcement would need to appear for a few days beforehand to inform players so they don't assume it's a bug] 

For those who think this will make RenX better/worse, let's give it a try before any permanent changes are made to the base game. 

The usefulness of mutators.

#notmyRenX lmao

Edited February 4, 2017 by Hohndo

[Axesor]

2 minutes ago, Axesor said:

Advanced Engineers got mutated SMG's instead of Heavy Pistols. Hotwire got Silenced SMG.

 

Maybe u will like it.

[yosh56]

Considering the silenced SMG is built to only be good vs. people not paying attention.... it might actually work. 

[Axesor]

Original SMG is not enough to selfdefence. It's worse than silenced pistol, so I made these small changes for SMG, If you want, I can release mutator about Advanced engineers only so this mutated SMG could be tested in action.

[boxes]

6 minutes ago, yosh56 said:

Considering the silenced SMG is built to only be good vs. people not paying attention.... it might actually work. 

I wouldn't say that, it wrecks flak armor regardless. Their TTK against each other and other flak based characters would still be too high.

[yosh56]

Just now, CampinJeff said:

I wouldn't say that, it wrecks flak armor. Their TTK against each other would still be too high.

After like the first 2 shots its spread is too high and it unloads its clip too fast.. It's pretty hard to use against anyone in any situation other than CQC vs. flak. And Techs/Hotties being able to kill each other easily isn't that bad imho

[ex_member]

...

Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[yosh56]

13 minutes ago, dr.schrott said:

but it would deal with some other problems, like massive inf rushes

Since when does that go under as a 'problem'? 

Also, no. Limiting infantry classes would honestly just be more frustrating and make the game more linear than necessary. 

[boxes]

30 minutes ago, yosh56 said:

After like the first 2 shots its spread is too high and it unloads its clip too fast.. It's pretty hard to use against anyone in any situation other than CQC vs. flak. And Techs/Hotties being able to kill each other easily isn't that bad imho

They have the ability to wipe out a class in one clip. Meaning for example a hottie just by herself can break a line of arty tech by sneaking behind them and instantly/quietly taking out repairs and throwing c4 on the tanks. They're not designed to use the ssmg, it'll introduce new problems.

Their overall combat effectiveness as a utility class needs to be toned down, not more specialized 

[yosh56]

4 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

They have the ability to wipe out a class in one clip. Meaning for example a hottie just by herself can break a line of arty tech by sneaking behind them and instantly  taking out repairs and throwing c4 on the tanks. They're not designed to use the ssmg, it'll introduce new problems.

Their overall combat effectiveness as a utility class needs to be toned down, not more specialized 

I dunno, that thing is useless against moving targets, like anyone repairing that isn't brain dead. 

Also.... I still have yet to see one instance of them being THAT combat effective in anything other than a building. Swear we're playing 2 different games.

Also, even the silenced pistol can kill in one clip.. bad point.  

[ex_member]

...

Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[boxes]

8 hours ago, yosh56 said:

I dunno, that thing is useless against moving targets, like anyone repairing that isn't brain dead. 

Also.... I still have yet to see one instance of them being THAT combat effective in anything other than a building. Swear we're playing 2 different games.

Also, even the silenced pistol can kill in one clip.. bad point.  

I still don't see a particular reason on their design point of view to give them one of the most lethal cqc weapons. Another scenario is defending your C4s inside a building, which is why making HottieTech have the potential to instantly kill each other is a bad idea. 

Heavy pistol is the Heavy pistol. It's too strong in the right hands, being able to kill PICs and gunners with just 4 headshots for a class specialized in repairing and mining. They can use remote C4 traps to make matters even worse. 

Silenced pistol obviously requires more aim and is perhaps the least effective firearms in the game. 

[Madkill40]

Just to defend Jeff's point, Hotwires/Techies having an automatic firearm such as an SMG (even an ssmg) was one of the main issues why purchasable firearms were removed in the first place remember? In-theory an ssmg would recreate that same problem as before.

Upon reflection, I really don't want to encounter Jeff or boi/poi/whateveroi in one of my teams' buildings whilst I am a Patch/Mobius/Doza/LCG just to take an entire clip under the chin and die before I fire a single round. That just shouldn't be possible in the first place and it wouldn't just be them capable of doing this but they're just relatable examples.  

Oldschool Silenced Pistols plz. [or some knock-off double-barrel shotgun with a long reload time, whoops! I think I accidentally TF2'd]

 

This aside, could Timed C4 ticks be considerably louder (perhaps not as loud as I originally suggested) but loud enough in you guys' opinion for an active defender to actually hear one within a reasonable distance?