Veterancy, easy for teams with more players

[Darkraptor]

The veterancy is great addition to the game. But i noticed one problem:

When one team has more players then the other team, the team with less players are in the base and trying to defent against the overwhelming enemy forces. So the enemy could easely get veterancy points by killing the harvester. This is another disadvantage for the team with less player.

I see two ways to solve the problem:

1. The players in the team with more players get less veterancy points then the other players in the team with less players.

2. No veternancy points for destroying the harvseter.

[boxes]

More/Less players should be looked at as sometimes team counts sometimes get awkwardly skewed, but shouldn't affect veterancy since it's a separate issue. Ragequitters leave because it's likely that the game is already decided, and having player counts affect vet should not slow down the process.

Harvesters should defintely have a VP bonus, as their routes usually lead to the field. If you don't have field control, your whole team falls behind on veterancy. It's a matter of offense rewarding more than defense

[Ryz]

This is exactly what I ran into yesterday at Field.

Nod has a few people overmining so I am busy remining all game and I gained almost no points

Nod had snipers killfarming in tunnels and / or ppl randomly running around SBH

GDI had meds 'camping the base front' for 10 min. killing every harvester

Nod never got any vehicles + money and GDI becomes stronger and stronger

Nod ppl (rage)quit

GDI attacks -> more Nod ppl ragequits

Whole GDI team = veteran, not is left with overminers, snipers, no vehicles, and not a single harvy and maybe some ppl with a higher rank

I know you want to 'thank' people for being offensive, but that also punishes the people who are in an incapable team as a whole. I am not a teamswitcher, but if many rounds like yesterday happen I will sure consider to teamstack and I've allready noticed some people doing this.

I have some ideas to finetune veterancy but I think we should watch the veterancy mechanic for a bit longer. I really, really like the overall idea btw!

[Cherno]

A bigger problem is that blowing up buildings gives the whole team veterancy, which is an additional punishment for the other team because the missing building is already a heavy blow.

[Ryz]

Just some more thoughts. I feel that people should, in general, be promoted more for helping the team. It's not only about the amount of people, but also about the what they are doing which benefits or harms the team. But how are you going to translate this to code? A few solo players (I am not refering to sneaking hotties, but the people who play 'for fun' and K/D and would rather have a sniper server than play C&C mode) can ruin the team.

While I absolutely hate Islands (camp tunnels with flamer / med / apc and control the front and that's all you need to do) we had a good game yesterday where both teams ranked up in veterancy, but it still kept pretty balanced. Till we made Nod lose their strip and we had to encounter a lot of LCG's which teared our vehicles apart. Since the team had a good sniper we asked for help, but the person would rather killfarm in tunnels than support our vehicles.

This behaviour is ONE off the things which punishes the team now more cause we hard a hard time countering LCG + less hotties to keep our vehicles alive. Nod became stronger and stronger...

Some rules I thought about:

Sniper:

- Make sniper less rewarding when barracks / HON is still in place (prevents ppl from killfarming without a benefit for the team)

- Make sniper less rewarding in places 'marked' as tunnels (in Islands for example).

- Make sniper more rewarding for killing units which cannot be replaced (maybe do this for every unit)

- Make snipers more rewarding when killing people near beacon(s) (maybe do this for every unit?)

- Make snipers more rewarding when killing techs/hotties/engineers near vehicles (makes killing repairs more rewarding and thus benefits the team)

- Make sniper more rewarding when assisting near vehicles in general

Hotwires / Techs:

- Make building kills with tech / hotwire more rewarding when your own bar / HON is down (to add a bonus for risking the unit)

- More repair bonus

- Bonus for placing x-amount of mines in own buildings (the game show is overmining near X, so I guess the game 'knows' more or less where people place stuff)

- Grant extra points for repairing harvester which is severly damaged (under half HP?)

- Remove veterancy by mineban

SBH:

- Make SBHS less rewarding when base defences are still up and they don't score points for x-time (to prevent ppl from getting an sbh and just hanging around - I know this is a difficult discussion btw)

- Make SBH more rewarding when stealing enemy vehicles (to compensate when they help the team)

Sydney /Raveshaw

- Make these units more rewarding in battlefield and less in tunnels (to prevent using them as an alternative sniper for killfarming instead of being uses as an AT unit)

- Grant a bonus when unit kills repairs near vehicles

Vehicle kills

- Idea stolen from Henk, reward vehicle kills more when it's getting more repairs.

- Reward vehicle kills more when a vehicle is damaging teams building

Harvy (not sure about this):

- Grant less points for killing harv more times in a row, to prevent people from camping base front and gaining and gaining veterancy, cause this is unstoppable eventually.

Moneywise:

- Grant some veterancy for donating team (yesterday we had a game where someone rather had 10k unused that share it with the team)

- Or decrease veterancy when someone has more than x-k of money for x-minutes (I know people could use some spare money, but it shouldn't be too much).

Vehicle steals:

- Reward people from stealing enemy vehicle if if stays alive for x-minute (couldn't find this, maybe in place?)

- Punish people for losing vehicle by getting it stolen and not destroyed within 1 min

Captures

- Give points for capturing tech building / silo

- Add more points for having silo / techbuilding longer?

AFKS

Make 'auto spawned' AFK's not get veterancy

Make people who didn't move / shoot / chat x-minute in advance of event (kill building) for example not share in points (noticed some people returning to game after 10 min. as a veteran without any effort.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Guest

[TheOlsenTwins]

Also, reward capturing tech buildings. (or is it done already?)

[Ryz]

Also, reward capturing tech buildings. (or is it done already?)

Lol I was just adding this to my list, noticed yesterday it wasn't there.

[Henk]

Hotwires / Techs:

- Bonus for placing x-amount of mines in own buildings (the game show is overmining near X, so I guess the game 'knows' more or less where people place stuff)

Stay inside building,

Plant 3 mines,

Get VP,

Refill,

Defuse 3 mines,

Repeat.

Moneywise:

- Grant some veterancy for donating team (yesterday we had a game where someone rather had 10k unused that share it with the team)

I like this. But could also be exploited by donating back and forth. I think it would be pretty difficult to implement this in the right way so it would not be able to be exploited.

[Ryz]

Hotwires / Techs:

- Bonus for placing x-amount of mines in own buildings (the game show is overmining near X, so I guess the game 'knows' more or less where people place stuff)

Stay inside building,

Plant 3 mines,

Get VP,

Refill,

Defuse 3 mines,

Repeat.

Also thought about this, but didn't go into details to prevent the post from being overly long. Removing those mines should just take away the same veterancy points just added so people can't use it to farm points.

Moneywise:

- Grant some veterancy for donating team (yesterday we had a game where someone rather had 10k unused that share it with the team)

I like this. But could also be exploited by donating back and forth. I think it would be pretty difficult to implement this in the right way so it would not be able to be exploited.

Yeah I release this is more difficult

What would work is:

- teamdonate (so every one receives) a small amount back, no problem

- large amount gets donated back by same person, cancel VP points

But how do you prevent this when there is a men in the middle?

In the end if people donate eachother and the person who had initially more money and receives it back would still be punished by the time thing...

This one is indeed tricky

[Kaiser739]

Moneywise:

- Grant some veterancy for donating team (yesterday we had a game where someone rather had 10k unused that share it with the team)

Great idea, I am supporting this!

[RoundShades]

Moneywise:

- Grant some veterancy for donating team (yesterday we had a game where someone rather had 10k unused that share it with the team)

Great idea, I am supporting this!

The obvious question is, what's to stop someone from exploiting veterancy gain by donating his friend 10k, his friend donating him back, back, forth, back, forth?

Anyway, Veterancy does make the game more "reliable". Veterancy itself did play out like a bad snowballing MOBA though. We need some sort of complexity to it methinks. This was a definite improvement and foothold into new game mechanics though.

We just need, to balance veterancy with a weakness or opening:

-Respawn time looks like a good one, since if veterans take longer to respawn that leaves a bigger opening if they are attacked and killed in mass. We really need to play around with the idea of 12 second respawn times 30 minutes into the game, and possibly just for elite while veteran and recruit enjoy 6 second respawns. One way we do this "cheap" in programming effort, is to just allow death to toggle between teammate views. We already have a respawn-wheel, which could be bigger btw.

-The difference between attacking and defending veterancy is important, but perhaps too great a gap.

-The rewards when killing someone (destroying their vehicle) with a significantly higher veterancy, is perhaps not great enough? We might not even need "some relative starting veterancy" if recruits leveled normally off other recruits, but 3x faster off veterans, 9x faster off elites, and 27x faster off heroics, as an elite would also level 1/27th as fast killing recruits, and 1/9th as fast killing veterans. That does give a "comeback mechanic", as dying as a high rank, rewards the enemy more than it rewards yourself. It also means a recruit would almost level up instantly off 1 heroic kill. It's a bitch to earn the first heroic, but if the enemy are elites then it becomes just as easy as if it were ranking to veteran. Of course, veterancy would have to go from 0-150-350-800 to at least 0-150-450-1250. Time to earn would even itself off since bonus veterancy for higher-ranked enemy kills. Veterancy towards harvesters and structures, should probably either double in light of that, or simply scale to the person earning it.

-Still think Harvester kills, should only reward a losing team. Yes, that may sound quirky, but it's a good comeback mechanic, so harvester kills by a dominating team doesn't feed them, but harvester kills against a dominating team can build comeback potential. Just reference a player's teamscore against the enemy team when calculating whether to reward harvester kill.

-Not sure whether building kills should reward veterancy or not, but I'm leaning strongly in favor of giving less of a team-bonus and more of an individual-bonus (the RIGHT way to earn Heroic). Something like team-bonus of 30 and individual-bonus of 300. Of course, building health should probably reward the team 3vp per 10% and a person doing the damage 30vp per 10%. This would divide up the vp if it's a group effort. However, if it's too much work, team vp of in total 30 and killing-blow of 300 would be acceptable.

[boxes]

giving the VP to the guy that gets the building kill isn't fair whatsoever, example

whole team coordiantes a med rush to kill the hon

wandering sydney that infiltrates hon via emp and shoots the MCT at the last second

sydney +300vp, rest of the team +30

...nah. The game already gives you a slight extra boost when you solo a building, as all of the building damage you deal out of the 4000 doesn't go to anybody else.

[Kaiser739]

Moneywise:

- Grant some veterancy for donating team (yesterday we had a game where someone rather had 10k unused that share it with the team)

Great idea, I am supporting this!

The obvious question is, what's to stop someone from exploiting veterancy gain by donating his friend 10k, his friend donating him back, back, forth, back, forth?

Donating to a single person should not grant VP IMO, only team donations. Should be a certain amount, too, say, 5 k or something like that. Think it would be rather difficult to exploit that. I know donating itself helps the team already (especially when ref is down), but yet there are a lot of players who don't consider it...so maybe getting some VP would encourage them.

[Glacious]

I like the idea of team donating gives you some extra VP for helping out the team as a whole. Would need to have something there to stop this being abused though as still a few ways you could milk this.

[Ryz]

I dont agree with VP for team donates: why?

- Sometimes when I have 4K and trying a medrush I donate to people who want to get involved - helps the team

- Donating to everybody will either give them not enough money to buy meds and will also give money to the people who don't care and won't donate / join any rush / whatsover, so the money is still lost.

I like to be able to control who I donate, cause it benefits the team above random handing out money. Than it goes, for example, also to the person who was 10K and never shared anything nor answered teamchat.

[Agent]

VP for donating (team or otherwise) is a horrible idea. I can see it now...

"Hey team, let's repeatedly team-donate each other so we can get to heroic!"

[Ryz]

VP for donating (team or otherwise) is a horrible idea. I can see it now...

"Hey team, let's repeatedly team-donate each other so we can get to heroic!"

That wouldn't be good. But if you find a way to arrange it good it will work. It will punish selfish people (like snipers with 8K and not caring about anything but K/D).

Than maybe not add points for donating, but remove points for holding the money. Would be harder to abuse.

[Agent]

If you wanted to combat selfishness, you'd be better off just having a personal bank cap. Then that player's excess income would either be redirected to the other players' income streams, or added to a team bank.

Doesn't seem necessary though.

[RoundShades]

giving the VP to the guy that gets the building kill isn't fair whatsoever, example

whole team coordiantes a med rush to kill the hon

wandering sydney that infiltrates hon via emp and shoots the MCT at the last second

sydney +300vp, rest of the team +30

...nah. The game already gives you a slight extra boost when you solo a building, as all of the building damage you deal out of the 4000 doesn't go to anybody else.

The point is, a building kill rewards a "fuller" team as well as a winning team rather than the working individuals.

And with extra code, it doesn't have to be "winner takes all", it can be every 10% building damage = 30vp for player damaging it. That way, if a med tank rush split it, it would be fine.

2 main focuses I feel for VP, is too much snowballing, too easy to build it over a suppressed team, and no negatives. All my points, grant possibilities for losing teams to vet, grant negative side-effects for the team that vets, and in case of granting multiplied VP for higher veterancy targets, both.

I'd rather deal with a heroic, than a whole team of elites, via harvester kills and a stray building kill.

[Madkill40]

If your name is on the building kill then you alone get the VP, other players nearby will get additional VP, but please not the whole frikken team?

Heck, just let the team losing the building gain a whole bunch of VP for losing the building and it can be referred to as "aggressive morale booster", because how pissed off is a team that loses their building? Give them 25VP.

Let's get a bit more VP for repairing vehicles. (By way of Multiplier, the longer the game notices you repairing vehicles the more VP you gain. Maximum multiplier x2.5 if; multiplier x0.5 by repairing +1250 damage within 3 minutes, maximum stack of 5. (i.e. x2.5 Max))

Vehicle kills within a certain timeframe should allow a higher VP so if you get a chain going, the 4th or 5th in the chain of vehicle kills is on a pretty good multiplier. i.e. 1 Vehicle kill, then if you score another vehicle kill in 60 seconds; 45 seconds; 30 seconds and 25 seconds. (Every addition to the chain has to be made in 25 seconds)

Graphical note: if the +5 VP floated above the person/vehicle/building killed, that'd look swish.

_______________________ ____________________________ ______________________

Spur of the moment idea below, you have been warned.

_______________________ ____________________________ ______________________

Heck. Could go a step beyond with VP and link Recruit, Veteran and Elite to the 3 Tiers of classes.

At recruit you get the base free-infantry as well as Officers, Rockets and Chem/McFarland's, additionally the buggy/humvee and APCs are accessible until you reach Veteran and later Elite.

When a Recruit gets to Veteran they are granted access to Gunner, Patch, Dead-Eye and Hotwire as well as the MRLS, MedTank and Trans/LCG, SBH, BH and Technician as well as the Artillery, Flame Tank, Light Tank and Trans.

At Elite Mobius, Havoc and Sydney as well as Orca and Mammy/Mendoza, Sakura and Raveshaw as well as Stealth tank and Apache.

Heroic could potentially unlock the Superweapons.

Airstrike is always available.

If the VP intertwined with the game like this in-addition to what VP does now then this game could improve mechanically.

[RoundShades]

One more thing. Harvester VP, rewards a team who lost their refinery, against a team that begrudgingly has their refinery. Their harvester constantly fields, the losing team's does not, skip to late game, team with no ref is elite and heroic, against a team of veterans and a few elite.

Harvester should either, grant VP only to a team losing in score, and/or to a team that still has their OWN refinery and thus is gambling their own harvester as well.

[boxes]

One more thing. Harvester VP, rewards a team who lost their refinery, against a team that begrudgingly has their refinery. Their harvester constantly fields, the losing team's does not, skip to late game, team with no ref is elite and heroic, against a team of veterans and a few elite.

Harvester should either, grant VP only to a team losing in score, and/or to a team that still has their OWN refinery and thus is gambling their own harvester as well.

Losing a ref was far more detrimental than losing a PP before 5.2, even in base defense maps. Awarding harvester VP bonuses to the attackers balances out the difference between the resource structures a bit more.

[RoundShades]

It's massive though. Losing a ref is becoming the new "intentionally lose it and just play conservatively" strategy that we've seen from Beta 5.1, and it's super effective, the difference is almost night and day. It's map specific, but it makes Gobi, TrainingYard, Field, and Mesa pretty rough if you're stupid enough to kill their refinery. In just 5 minutes, you make the VP for structure kill, in just the harvester alone.

[boxes]

It's massive though. Losing a ref is becoming the new "intentionally lose it and just play conservatively" strategy that we've seen from Beta 5.1, and it's super effective, the difference is almost night and day. It's map specific, but it makes Gobi, TrainingYard, Field, and Mesa pretty rough if you're stupid enough to kill their refinery. In just 5 minutes, you make the VP for structure kill, in just the harvester alone.

The refinery is still arguably the most vital structure in the game, even more so than the infantry ones. There are other ways of gathering VP against a team with no ref, and you still have all the advantages when fighting team with no money.

[RoundShades]

I like the recent addition where healers get assists for kills by their target-heal. That gives combat-repairs much-needed motivation not to abandon their repair-job and go awol doing some sniping or something else unhelpful.

[j0g32]

Before you ground my comment on this, I have to say that I haven't experienced (i.e. played with) the veterancy system in game at all yet, but from what I understood, veterancy was meant to only reward more offensive gameplay, as defensive gameplay was already rewarded by score points and credits, leading to stalemates.

Now it appears to me that this discussion is more about rewarding good teamplay in general. Please, keep in mind that this is ALREADY done by score points and credits, and can still be adjusted/balanced by these means.

To be honest, I think it is a good idea to use different instruments to incentivise different playstyles, no need to load all incentives again into the same instrument (now veterancy point).

Although I like Madkill40's idea about using the veterancy system for access to classes, which could give the game a more dynamic and versatile gameplay, you should be aware of potential cycles: it might be difficult for recruits joining the game at a later stage to catch up, if they would be restricted to fight enemy Mammooth tanks with low-tier buggies and shotguns...

Also in the beginning of each round there are no mines available and the match might end quickly with infantry rushes. But again, it would be cool to see mixed armies, where e.g. Humvees and low-tier infantry support the frontlines.

Additionally, striving for veterancy rank up is even more rewarding and could thus spur even more offensive gameplay, just to unlock the sniper...

edit: on a completely different note - how about resetting veterancy upon death? This would be in line with the original RTS veterency mechanic, and would encourage people to fight for survival. Instead of wasting money and the veterancy experience points that the player has earned for attacking the base since his last respawn. Note that this would also benefit the defending team - when they crucially damage high-veterancy units, these units might retreat in order to safe their points. And this would reliev the pressure on the defending team...

[yosh56]

edit: on a completely different note - how about resetting veterancy upon death? This would be in line with the original RTS veterency mechanic, and would encourage people to camp for survival.

Fixed. And the reason it wasn't implemented as such.

[j0g32]

edit: on a completely different note - how about resetting veterancy upon death? This would be in line with the original RTS veterency mechanic, and would encourage people to camp for survival.

Fixed. And the reason it wasn't implemented as such.

I see, fair enough. Was just reminiscing about those self-imposed pilot rescue missions in C&C Generals, just because they were veterans

[yosh56]

edit: on a completely different note - how about resetting veterancy upon death? This would be in line with the original RTS veterency mechanic, and would encourage people to camp for survival.

Fixed. And the reason it wasn't implemented as such.

I see, fair enough. Was just reminiscing about those self-imposed pilot rescue missions in C&C Generals, just because they were veterans

Yeah, converting what works in an RTS to an FPS is always a hassle. Some things just don't