Nod Airstrip

[voltex]

Now I know people have always complained about the strip but recently the complaints have seemed to increase and for good reason because I believe there's many things wrong with it and its not balanced.

1. Its easy to kill, from the large easy target it presents to how easy it is to ion its really hard to defend especially on maps like island or canyon where an ion at the end is almost guaranteed to work with support, even an ion inside the tower can be very effective.

2. Because of its size it usually makes Nod's base bigger and more spread out than GDI's which can make defending other buildings more of a challenge as the attackers can switch to a building on the opposite side in an instant while the defenders have to run across it which brings me to my next point.

3. It's far to open, not counting that the plane tells the entire map that Nod has bought a vehicle when said vehicle is dropped off its easy for anyone to tell what it is which makes planning a stank rush more difficult than it already is, also GDI can simply target the defenseless vehicles and even snipe the players running to them as they watch in horror as its bombarded or even stolen without ever experiencing that new vehicle smell.

Now I know others can think of other examples but I find these are the main reasons and I have a few suggestions if you would hear me out.

A few ways to cut down on the size would be to cut off 1/2 or 3/4 of it as there is no reason for it to be that long or even make the strip take no damage only the tower as the strip is only a slab of concrete and merely serves as a drop off point. I realize that makes a small and possible hard to kill target but comparing the advantages the WF has over strip, and how easy hon is to kill compared to the barr (especially on some maps, the barr is like a freaking fortress) I think this would be a nice trade off.

As for the tower beacons the map Reservoir has a small elevator inside the tower which if implemented on other maps can easily solve that problem and even provide a nice little perch for snipers and other defenders.

I know not every problem can be solved but I think this can give an idea of what can be done, some of these are consistent while others can be less of a problem or worse depending on the map but I think this would be a step in the right direction. I've had other suggestions for this but I seem to have forgotten them in the process of making this but all the positive and negative feedback is appreciated, hopefully we can make a decision to change or stay as is I'll accept either one.

[Ryz]

I guess both the strip design and the one of the HON are made this way to compensate that GDI has no stealth. Longer strip makes it harder to find a beacon, stairs + windows in both buildings give you more places to get in and C4...

The people I hear complain about the strip are:

- either lacking the skill to jump inside the strip tower (wait the beacon is 'glitched' inside the tower they say)

- mad they lose cause they didn't defend the strip from 5 vehicles (for example) approaching it

Please also note:

IF 10 people on GDI have a vehicle and manage to work together they should be rewarded, not punished. If Nod lacks vehicles cause they have 10 SBHS hanging around (nothing special on maps like Islands and Canyon) they have 10 SBH's not defending from the vehicles, neither be able to help with diffusing it.

Meanwhile if they triple beacon the enemy base, or just storm inside a building with 5, they also have another adventage...

To me it's pretty balanced. Every side has some better and sides and some worse...

Not to mention the fact that sneaking with GDI is far more difficult in general. I can evade units if I see them, but it happened like 10.000 times that I mate it to a building, only to get shot in the back by an SBH handing around.

[boxes]

Sneaking is harder for GDI? It's actually the other way around because "Nod has stealth".

For now on the strip I would suggest removing the blue lights at the end and make the cargo jet quieter. WF chimney could smoke when a tank is produced.

[Profane Pagan]

Ryz is speaking the truth!

Moreover If you blame the Airstrip's vulnerability, you forget Nod has destroyed the WF countless times with artillery fire, just aiming at it's tall chimneys.

Often I feel like people want to water down the differences between the two sides until they get two identical races in funcionality. Old Warcraft 2 was something like this. The races were different only in aesthetics. Everything was the same under the human or orcish coat.

In Renegade the sides are unique and very exciting. Not everything is perfect, but each race has it's own strength and weakness in return. These are carefully designed by the creators of the original C&C Renegade. Also, it is the level designer's responsibility to place buildings well.

Because of these differences, this game is pretty hard, we must admit it.

But I am all for the elevator in the Control tower. That is a good idea.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Guest

[voltex]

I don't want the two factions to be similar, I just feel that Nod is always too open and exposed. With the WF sure it can get hit from far away but so can hon and both ref's and even with the WF under siege unless Nod is inside the base GDI can still push out vehicles without fear of them being instantly targeted and destroyed, even if there under sniper fire the WF shields them from harm. I understand some of it is because of building placement but even if it where rotated it would still provide better cover.

Also what if GDI was screwing around in tunnels, lost all there vehicles and Nod actually maxed out theirs and rushed GDI, GDI can still safely push out vehicles and push them back, therefore punished Nod for working together I have seen this happen many times. Also coordinated beacons is entirely different and is effective for both sides.

Sneaking from my experience is much easier for GDI mostly because GDI expects sbh while Nod tends to neglect their own base.

Also the strip tower beacon can be hard to get to if your under fire, and end of strip ions are much too easy to cover considering you can see the engi's and techs coming from a mile away.

[Schmitzenbergh]

Sneaking from my experience is much easier for GDI mostly because GDI expects sbh while Nod tends to neglect their own base.

This is a problem for the playing Nod team. Not the game mechanics.

Nod should always patrol their base. It's easier to do because Hotties can bee seen in a normal state.

GDI has the lesser part of the deal due to SBH's being invisible. But GDI has adapted to this. Why can't Nod do it? Purely a team problem in my opinion.

I mean, take walls or Complex. GDI can sneak great in this map if Nod is not defending. Yes, SBH's are better, but GDI patrols for them thus making it harder.

Nod can do exactly the same by scouting for hotties, thus making sneaking nearly impossible. (Nearly)

[Henk]

Patrolling with an SBH is actually a really good strategy btw.

[Ryz]

Patrolling with an SBH is actually a really good strategy btw.

So you are the guy headshoting me while I am crouched and removing the mines behind the PP for example...

[Lostalot]

- lacking the skill to jump inside the strip tower (wait the beacon is 'glitched' inside the tower they say)

You know, it also takes 'skill' to get vehicles on the infantry path on lakeside and tanks on the battlements in walls. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Pot meet kettle.

As for the rest of the structural arguments:

- HON/WF are both tall structures with two entrances and a roof top.

- Strip/BAR are both low profile structures with a single entrance

The structures balance against each other, the only place GDI have an advantage is in the HON having such a large distance to the nearest terminal from its lower entrance and with the actual strip being so big. The best way to balance them is extra terminals in the HON and by making the runway invulnerable but keeping the big red pad vulnerable to attack.

[Quinc3y]

Voltex is speaking the truth. In my opinion GDI having better, harder to destroy production buildings than Nod is one of the reasons why it is generally a stronger faction that is winning more games.

[Henk]

I think the main reason is because Nod has too many lone-wolfing SBH's who don't even communicate when there's 4 of them in the GDI base on walls just to name one example that i've seen too many times. There's usually more teamwork on GDI even without having to use the Survey tool to gather up a rush.

And yeah the HoN and Airstrip are more vulnerable than the Barracks and WF when the buildings have ramps.

[Profane Pagan]

I don't think the buildings are in need of an overhaul. But if you really insist to enhance them, I have some ideas which are not too dramatic:

HON: having problems with the windows while having ramps? Put Window blast shields into the HON, so it would be the team's responsibility by switching the installed buttons to close the shields after somebody left through the windows.

Also, put two additional PTs at the far end of HON.

Airstrip: Now this is something different. Apart from the absence of an integrated elevator inside the control tower, the problem here is seem to be the wide and vulnerable construction of the runway. I do think one shouldn't make the Airstrip smaller, since the WF is quite a big construction too. Tell me how plausible to destroy an entire building by shooting off their chimneys only? But all right, let's say the Airstrip is weaker, and it is not the team's or the level designer's fault when you loose the Airstrip.

What if you can seriously damage the first half of the runway, to a point where no C130 transport can bring it's cargo until you repair it back? So you wouldn't loose the airstrip even under ION-fire, but you couldn't use it temporarily. However the second half with the red drop-off point and the control tower would be really damageable.

Still, this would be a smaller building area, than the WF's. So how fair is it?

Baracks: I understand your problem with the Barracks. You call it fortress.

What about a small ventilation-window at the back of the barrack? With well-aimed fire you could damage the people around the MCT inside. Or put the ventilation on the top of the barracks so somebody could infiltrate through it.

[Ryz]

I think the main reason is because Nod has too many lone-wolfing SBH's who don't even communicate when there's 4 of them in the GDI base on walls just to name one example that i've seen too many times.

Sooo true Henk... I even removed mines with a techy (and stank) behind the PP... An SBH (on my own team) stole my stank instead of helping me. Building got damaged a till a few percent cause someone repaired and got killed and I also died... The SBH needed ONE shot to kill it, but was too busy saving my stolen tank from an engie or whatever attacking it... This is wat usually happens with SBHS. Or they nuke a building you just moved to and removed the mines from. I've seen soooo many attacks fail cause of loners.. But I have the feeling I said that sometimes

[vandal33]

That's because in the old Renegade, Nod have better units so their base should be handicapped by having that airstrip an easy target and forces the base to be huge, making it difficult for defenders to react. Now, GDI is just as equal but Nod base is still "handicapped".

But it is easier to notice a hand of nod MCT under attack than the Barracks which is hidden at the back where people don't usually look.

[voltex]

This Isn't about bad communication between players or the class they choose to be, we have these same problems during PUG's also. GDI will target vehicles as soon as there dropped off giving Nod no chance to fight back and rush the Hon with a chinook because they know they can easily infiltrate it while Nod has no such option. The only thing Nod can do is sneak with sbh which is useless if GDI has campers so its not dependable while GDI can always depend on the Hon and strip being vulnerable.

Like I said some of this is because of poor building placement and could fix many problems but because of how the buildings are designed most will be consistent. Example on Islands GDI is free to camp and assault the base and kill any vehicles as soon as there dropped off while GDI can push out vehicles unhindered, if the WF was rotated 180 it would be much more difficult for GDI to defend.

[Madkill40]

Sneaking is harder for GDI? It's actually the other way around because "Nod has stealth".

For now on the strip I would suggest removing the blue lights at the end and make the cargo jet quieter. WF chimney could smoke when a tank is produced.

Weapons Factory could have a factory whistle whenever a vehicle is produced, with extra puff of black chimney smoke to go with it.

i.e.

Because GDI are old fashioned.

[TheOlsenTwins]

Either way, it would be great if the blue lights had collision or were removed, because just 2 days ago a completely invisible nuke was in one of the lights...

[sterps]

I really am getting the feeling that over time, GDI players have really learnt how to work as a team and defend against stealth intrusions. On there other hand, it feels like Nod players have done the opposite, and seem to work as a team less.

For GDI to defend successfully against stealth, it needs player resources to do so, which means more players are NOT on the offense, which can then mean Nod can gain the advantage in the battlefield.

This is especially true with respects to defending. How can you say it's easier to infiltrate as GDI? Stealth vs no stealth... nuff said. That statement is reflective of the team, not the game's balance.

Going back to the original topic, I honestly think there is nothing wrong with the strip. Sure it's big, but it's open, and vehicles should be able easily assist against any beacons placed, as well as snipers pick off any GDI infantry.

The Tower isn't hard to jump into ( easier than in original renegade).

The wf on the other hand has a lot more places to hide a beacon, and is in my opinion the easiest building to place a successful beacon, A favourite place for me is to place on the ledge. If a beacon is placed on top for instance. You as a GDI hotwire may have to run from the other side of the base to disarm. You then have a choice to make, go up or look on the ground, a choice that may cost you the wf.

Do I think it should change, no.

Each team has its differences, which make this game unique.

[Madkill40]

Either way, it would be great if the blue lights had collision or were removed, because just 2 days ago a completely invisible nuke was in one of the lights...

Dunno how you get an Ion and a Nuke confused but by golly you did it.

[TheOlsenTwins]

Either way, it would be great if the blue lights had collision or were removed, because just 2 days ago a completely invisible nuke was in one of the lights...

Dunno how you get an Ion and a Nuke confused but by golly you did it.

Of course i meant an ion ;-)