Idea: Show designated mining area

[Henk]

So yesterday I came up with an idea to help against bad mining and overmining..

What if mappers could set some sort of "Designated Mining Area"-volume, and then show that volume when someone has mines in their hand?

Some mockup images to show you what I mean:

Make those areas flash a bit, and when they get close to it, show a message like "Put mines here, mine limit: [9/20]"

Maybe show the mine limit to people anytime they're putting down a mine anyway btw? Together with that blue progress bar?

Most cases when someone mines in bad places, he/she doesn't have any bad intentions, seeing the game give these guidelines will help players who are new to mining. I think this will work even better than having a video tutorial.

[Ryz]

Nice idea, i f people can't understand that than I am clueless what they understand

[[TmX]Super-Kh]

haha nice Idea henk,maybe make the area glow in red if the mine limit is maxed or near maxing as well ?

[Axesor]

This is a nice short-term solution to this mining problem.

I know we all get used to mine doors and random entrances, but I was and I am still standing by my opinion that this is simply not serious game solution how to protect buildings from infiltration.

[RoundShades]

I subscribe to the idea that there is no perfect place to put mines. I put spares on the sharp turn at the top of ramps, like WF, Air, and Ref.

Assuming there is a "perfect way to mine", here is an idea:

- Make doors have personal mine volumes with personal mine limits, for each area of each door, or even "designated mine places" where placing a mine automatically generates a mine in that exact position.

- Make a "variable mine limit", a limit that exists now, except subtract anything you would normally mine a door with, leaving mine limits closer to 4-8 outside of the "designated mine areas".

- Destroyed buildings, no longer contribute EVEN MORE MINES to other structures. Is anyone complaining? No, you aren't, because it decreases stalemates from 1-structure-24-mines.

That way:

-Any door has a personal mine limit of 3.

- Laying extra mines exceeding that door's limit, instead costs "map mine limit".

-Losing a structure, loses some of your mine limit, and the reason why that is good, is because 24 mines on 1 structure creates stalemates.

-If you want, you can even control "where the mine spawns inside of that area", or just narrow the area to the center of the door so the mine has to be placed in a "good place".

-If you desired, you could also hook it to the Building-UI, where icons show how many mines are within. Easier to code, you could just make friendly mines explode, cause "building under attack" message, like EMP Grenades do.

To do it, you need someone to code, volumes, that allow 3 mines each individual volume, that don't contribute to the ridiculously low 4 mine map limit as long as it's inside the volume. Any more than 3 mines that volume, they disappear or start counting toward map limit. Any more than map limit, they start disappearing. The volumes would be the hardest thing to code or place. After being coded, they could even possibly be attached to structures, so placing a structure comes with it's door-volumes for mines.

[DoctorB0NG]

I subscribe to the idea that there is no perfect place to put mines. I put spares on the sharp turn at the top of ramps, like WF, Air, and Ref.

Assuming there is a "perfect way to mine", here is an idea:

- Make doors have personal mine volumes with personal mine limits, for each area of each door, or even "designated mine places" where placing a mine automatically generates a mine in that exact position.

- Make a "variable mine limit", a limit that exists now, except subtract anything you would normally mine a door with, leaving mine limits closer to 4-8 outside of the "designated mine areas".

- Destroyed buildings, no longer contribute EVEN MORE MINES to other structures. Is anyone complaining? No, you aren't, because it decreases stalemates from 1-structure-24-mines.

That way:

-Any door has a personal mine limit of 3.

- Laying extra mines exceeding that door's limit, instead costs "map mine limit".

-Losing a structure, loses some of your mine limit, and the reason why that is good, is because 24 mines on 1 structure creates stalemates.

-If you want, you can even control "where the mine spawns inside of that area", or just narrow the area to the center of the door so the mine has to be placed in a "good place".

-If you desired, you could also hook it to the Building-UI, where icons show how many mines are within. Easier to code, you could just make friendly mines explode, cause "building under attack" message, like EMP Grenades do.

To do it, you need someone to code, volumes, that allow 3 mines each individual volume, that don't contribute to the ridiculously low 4 mine map limit as long as it's inside the volume. Any more than 3 mines that volume, they disappear or start counting toward map limit. Any more than map limit, they start disappearing. The volumes would be the hardest thing to code or place. After being coded, they could even possibly be attached to structures, so placing a structure comes with it's door-volumes for mines.

There very much is a perfect way to mine.

[Axesor]

I am a big opponent of this way of mines usage since my very begining when I started to play RenX. This is nice short-term solution but I think we should completely get rid of this idea of using mines to protect building doors becouse it doesn't feel much serious to me...

This is my idea (please ignore my skills in microsoft painting software )

-mines can be damaged with weapons (direct hits only)[/u]

-mines can't be place on/in the building (also not sure with this)

What do you think about this?

And yes, I don't like this mines usage that much. I know we all got used to it so it doesn't feel strange but dude... using indestructible mines to protect doors is strange as hell.

[RoundShades]

Just, that this then gives teams infinite mines that automatically lay, even in the absence of Hotwires.

Also, protecting doors with "semi-lethal lasers" is also "strange as hell". Laser-tripwire explosives, that is heard-of. Small change to swing it that way though.

Or, could make doors "blast doors" that only open for "allies" unless "disarmed like mines currently take". Otherwise, doors are unopenable. If disarmed, the doors just stay open.

Either way, one common thing can be added from all these ideas: Triggering a "building under attack" message would be just lovely.

[Axesor]

I remember this "blast doors". I was suggesting it by myself time back. But there was many problems what would come with this.

[Henk]

What I like about mines as opposed to a laser door or blast doors is that anyone understands the concept of what mines do even if you've never played a shooter at all, they explode when you walk over/near them, simple as that.

People would understand those other concepts eventually, but it'll take more time and probably be confusing to a lot of players. I don't think more complexity is what the game needs.

Oh and another idea: having a Ctrl or Alt shout for mines lost/losing mines?

[Axesor]

Well, I think newcomers rather think that mines should be used in field and so they are using them like that- they are overmining and pissin whole team. So you want to show them where exactly mines should be used on. I actually like it (actually I more like bro's suggestion in 5th post) -but only becouse I already got used to how mining works here.

With laser in doors nobody needs to care about overmining. There will be completely clear how building protection works.

Unlike you, I think it's very simple and clear. I'd like to repeat once again that we all got used to how to use mines so it's not problem for us. But newcomers have no a idea that mines are supposed to be placed in and only doors and there is very strict unwritten rule for mines also very limited with mine limit.

They see mines: oh cool, I can mine field or entrance now

They see lasers in doors and scanner: oh cool we got a door protection.

It's very intuitive

Instead of: whole team: "OH YOU MOTHERF* U PLACED 3 MINES IN TUNNEL I WILL MURDER YOUR FACE OFF!!. and then *vote to ban from mining* or *vote to kick* and then he will just QQ quit.

[Veezo]

I've made this profile specifically after seeing this post. I feel that when situations come up like this in a game's development you need to take a look at the objectives taking place.

When a gaming community has developed into the belief that there is only one, precise way to do things correctly-- specifically the mining-- there is a problem.

This isn't a problem of new players or veterans but that there is only one reasonable way to do things effectively.

The problem is that mining is no longer a game mechanic, but a procedure taken upon by players.

And I'm sure the noobs want to find out what they are doing wrong just about as much as the vets want to yell at them for it.

If all your mines are getting used the same way every game there needs to be a different way of preventing stealth assaults: because obviously without this stringent mining strategy players feel the game is unenjoyable without it.

On a side note mines are intended for the field that why we have both Anti-Tank and Proxi Mines, and in other games its pretty damn fun to f*ck with the tanks rolling into the field.

I'm going to leave the suggestion of door-guards up in the air because it needs a bit of balancing, but mines should get a timer, and I think 180 seconds is a perfect setting for this. Perhaps you could make it adjustable if some would prefer. But when and if mines are going to be used in the field and have an entity limit there needs to be something regulating that players have the chance to use a game mechanic as part of their strategy. (and we don't have 30 mines in god-knows-where).

Thanks for hearing me out.

TL:DR- Put a 3 minute life on mines and Axesor's 3-laser doorways is golden.

[Axesor]

^ thats exactly what I've meant. Thx, I am glad that someone who write english better than me share and could demonstrate my thoughts.

[Profane Pagan]

People would understand those other concepts eventually, but it'll take more time and probably be confusing to a lot of players. I don't think more complexity is what the game needs.

A warning sign decal next to the laser door with yellow-black colours and stripes would deter the intruder.

[Henk]

What i mean is understandig how to get past them.

[Profane Pagan]

&Henk I see. But that's what pop up notification is for: "Use you repair tool to disable laser grid". On the fuse box caption reads: 'Control panel'. Visual hint helps a lot. In contrast, the mines has non whatsoever, so newbies often mine their garden awfully. Like I did first time, I almost got kicked out, I spent a couple of minutes defusing my mines. From that point I was watching carefully how others do it. Your designated mining area is a good plan, but what if the map designer forgot a choke-point? Personally I like your idea and Axesor's as well. I don't think his way would complicate the gameplay. EDIT: I would even expand this laser grid thingy: After disabling a door, some sort of intruder alarm could go off, but after the loss of the Powerplant, the complete door-alarm system would be out of order. Tactical value I say.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Guest

[GaiusLukasCäsar]

The game basically needs a tutorial which every new player has to pass before he can enter the multiplayer and covers all important mechanics of the game. I know this could piss off some people who want to try out the game but you know what? People that don't want to learn basic mechanics of the game aren't worth it anyway. But we could maybe get rid of new people who mine the field because they don't know mines are supposed to be on building entrences.

Also I think the player who placed mines should get informed (Like text message "Lost some of your mines at Hand of Nod") about where mines are going off if they are some of his mines. Honestly, who bats an eye on the mine limit all the time when he is out in field?

This doesn't mean its impossible to sneak into a building anymore because the miner could still be afk/don't warn his team/simply ignore it.

But for miners like me it would be really helpful because when I kill someone with mines I sometimes have to search whole base to find out where which is really annoying.

[Profane Pagan]

@Lukas No succesful game franchise would oblige the players to do a tutorial prior the multiplayer game. License to play? It just harms the business. I know this is a free game, but still needs good publicity. We are so different, but we learn eventually. Give license to mine to senior players or do designated mining areas, but let everybody join in.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Guest

[Axesor]

How do you destroy undestructible mines? Why "E" doesn't work for capturing silo? Many people still don't know that they can disarm mines with EMP. It's same principes

But they will see that there is a panel with health next to it, and also if they touch the lasers, one or more will dissapear then. I think it's very intuitive.

[GaiusLukasCäsar]

I remember I saw videos of earlier versions of Renegade X when you could read useful tips in the loading screens. What about bringing them back? Would be definitely easier than making a whole tutorial.

[Mystic~]

In the original Deus Ex game, laser trip wires were connected to alarm systems and auto-turrets mounted on ceilings. If you walked through the beams whilst they're still active you trigger a local alarm and get shot at with cannon fire from the turrets.

There were lots of different solutions to get by them:

It was possible to disable the door beams via a control panel next to the door by either hacking the terminal or using electronic multi-tools (essentially the same as an engineer repair gun) - it was also possible to use EMP grenades to disable the beams/turrets in the blast radius.

You could eventually destroy the turrets themselves with enough gun hits over time or destroy the beam emitters and/or turrets with high explosives like remote C4.

Buildings like the Hon and Airstrip could have secondary interior beams at windows and interior tower access point that would trigger the auto-turret, but perhaps ignore any sort of global alarm system so sneaking is still possible even if you run through them.

There was always the option you could risk running straight through the beams at a doorway and take a load of damage and triggering alarms in some sort of a suicide dash - sort of like 'eating' the current mines.

If such a system were possible, proxies could be limited to a number per a player/class dependent and be used in the field instead of guarding doorways, which is much more intuitive and fits with new player expectations.

https://youtu.be/GzwPP-Cb_wU?t=5m40s

Edited January 17, 2016 by Guest

[Profane Pagan]

^This. Oh yeah good ol' Deus Ex. Such defense-system with Axesor's lasers would really enhance the game.

[TheOlsenTwins]

Well i think that the laser systems are a good idea. Maybe make them repairable only by Hotwire/Tech, in order to have the same consequences when infantry building is destroyed..

[Axesor]

Anything what is not mines and is specialised exclusively on building protection is acceptable. I am sure that devs will come up with something.

[RypeL]

I think right now we are more focused on finding ways to END a game within a certain time, not to buff defence. Then again once we found reliable ways to end a game we can also work on defence again.

[TheOlsenTwins]

I believe its not about buffing defences but about making the game more noob friendly and intuitive. IMO a new mechanic should try to replicate the current time to defuse/damage to intruders...

[Axesor]

It's not a buff, it's just replacement for current mines usage for reasons that TheOlsenTwins mentioned.

What do you mean by writing "to end a game"? Trying to solve stalemate map problem? Give us back rep tools it's healing potential then!! It was supporting teamwork in 5.1, remove headshot multiplier from snipers (ramjet/ion gun 2hit kill anybody, sniper 2 hit kill free infantry and 3 hit kill other characters)- There is only 1 good sniper needed to ruin infantry push/rush=+1 for defenders. Favour the stronger and more agressive team. It's very clear, unless you want to change the game some radical way.

[Mystic~]

I think right now we are more focused on finding ways to END a game within a certain time

Why not bring back the beacon pedestal?

A new form of internal building defense would prevent having to explain to new people the complicated rules regarding mines and their expected usage as well as open up new avenues for potential infiltration into buildings. It's not so much about buffing, it would probably need to be on par with what the mines deliver - a limited defense that can be circumvented if given the opportunity and the right tools.

[RoundShades]

I think right now we are more focused on finding ways to END a game within a certain time

Why not bring back the beacon pedestal?

This comes up all the time in discussion.

[Agent]

In general I'm supportive of making mines more intuitive so that they actually make sense to new players; the concepts of mine-limits, over-mining, and "a perfect way to mine" aren't at all intuitive, and make the game more difficult for players to learn and enjoy. Even after playing Renegade and Renegade-X for years, I still can't stand the mining system; it's an obnoxious mechanism that seriously needs to be replaced.

I'm unsure as to if I support a "door-hacking" type system or not; it's more code, but it does mostly make sense.

For some insight on one possible solution, here's a quick little screenshot from one of the internal forums:

Maybe a similar poll should be made publicly.

[yosh56]

I'd be down to try other ideas in other maps first.

[Xtractor]

I like the fact that we can mine anywhere on the maps outside buildings ( and no obligation to where),this bring some strategic mining .Mb give a limit of mines for each tech to deploy with a max team total mines .

I think mines should be able to be deployed anywhere outside buildings ..

Mining IN buildings doesnt seing right to me

For inside Buildings yes a new mechanic can be very interesting .If Buildings had motion detector, if an intruder enter, the team get an warning in wich buildings ,

But anyhow building should be infiltratable..And i can see ceiling turrets ( destructable and repairable) in each buildings in the MCT zone

[Handepsilon]

I'd be down to try other ideas in other maps first.

I was gonna say 'Don't you mean other gameinfo?' but then I remembered how static and rigid the building class is and how the only way to 'replace' it is by either rewriting the whole building class or derive them

[djlaptop]

I think one of the problems is that newcomers may not realize that the mine limit is PER TEAM and not PER PLAYER. And they may not also realize that overmining erases older mines. They see the mines are at 20/20 and may assume that they simply won't be able to place a new mine. Oh but wait! It works and they can! "Silly game, still has bugs," thinks the newbie.