Melee

[Tarvin]

Melee is a standard feature in most FPS games and allows for more close-quarters combat variety. Melee attacks could use the butts of larger weapons like rifles, use the largest like clubs or rams like with the Rocket Launcher, or switch to a combat knife. Hitting the default shoot button or reload would automatically switch back to the last standard weapon used. This would in effect create a hidden weapon that doesn't appear in the weapon selection but is accessible to all classes. Additional variety could be added by allowing for different types of melee weapons to be purchased such as a bayonet that would appear on certain weapons and eliminate the need to switch back and forth between weapons that hold two separate inventory slots.

(Other suggestions were moved to individual topics due to being overshadowed.)

Edited February 18, 2015 by Guest

[SFJake]

Melee in this game seems out of place. I never get so close to people that it would really matter, unless the melee has "auto-aim" or pushes you forward toward the enemy faster (which would be awful). Instant kill melee are also out of the question, so melee shouldn't deal too much damage. In other words, they feel kind of pointless, just grab your pistol.

[Tarvin]

The idea is that it would add a bit more depth to the game. More importantly if you are fighting someone in corridors do you really want to be stuck reloading your pistol or just slash at them with a knife. I imagine knives and similar weapons would deal more damage in general as head and body attacks would be more likely.

Also, Stealth Black Hand with knives? For some reason it seems like something they would have.

[SFJake]

It seems like something they should not have. We don't need stealth backstabbing people. My point is that melee is not going to add depth at all.

[Tarvin]

There are two particular times that I think Melee would be appreciated. Tight corridors where people are typically dancing around each other while emptying clip after clip at walls. Those dance-offs can get a bit dull and comes down to who will run out of ammo or get backup first sometimes.

The other time is fighting beacon defenders and would help GDI in one important area they lack. They have no free units like the flamethrower infantry that can just sweep back and forth to deal with entrenched units. Melee weapons like knives would be very short range, obviously, but would give GDI players to either broad seeping attacks or quick stabs that are easier to make contact with.

There is a natural balance to keep this from being an issue already. Collision between players and being unable to shoot through other friendly units. This would prevent beacon defenders from being completely overwhelmed and force them to employ more clever tactics than 'stand on beacon and hold off engineers armed only with plinking pistols." On the same note SBH having knives to fight back with would make for more intense moments than "stand there and shoot at people from a corner". In effect, it would require a Nod to employ more team tactics rather than rely on pure lone wolf efforts to turn the tide of a battle. Things like two SBH defending a beacon from ambush points after placing timed C4 nearby to take out the disarming squad would be inspired and I think the game would be better for it.

As for potential depth, I would argue who out there would toss out melee in games like Halo, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Fallout, Metro: First Light, Gears of War or any other modern first person shooter for not providing depth? In each of those games people revel in or feel a certain sense of satisfaction at successfully killing opponents in melee combat because it presents more of a challenge than simply unloading a clip that could be heard by other players. It's something that you will find video after video about for different games showcasing someone ability to either own or be owned in.

I think where the disconnect is with the thought of melee in Renegade is that the game essentially predates the modern age of first person shooters before things like melee combat, recoil, and other elements were tested and accepted. The reason why some people would probably be unsure about the thought is because melee combat wasn't in Renegade and is something different.

My argument is that being able to switch out secondary weapon load outs, grenades, a second type of pistol, airstrike, and other things were never in the Renegade but would most argue those things should be taken out of RenegadeX because of it? More and more RenegadeX is stepping out of the shadow of Renegade and becoming something in it's own right. Why should it be limited before something is even tested?

[TheOlsenTwins]

I think it is not a bad idea, however SBH should not get Melee weapons...

[DoctorB0NG]

I'm far from a Renegade purist but how exactly would melee fit in? If it was an insta gib, it would be OP. So to balance it, it would need to do what, 40-50 damage per hit? What's the difference then between people dancing around in the tunnels shooting and dancing around trying to club each other in the tunnels?

[Tarvin]

I have thought about the issues with them having melee weapons. The addition of an additional mechanic to the game would help with that and could be universally applied to all characters. Footstep sound effects. I haven't paid too much attention to this detail when playing but I don't believe RenegadeX has them.

Being able to hear footsteps of other nearby players, the volume would depend on the distance, would give fair warning of SBH units approaching and keep base defenders on their toes. It would be like the audio counterpart to the glimmer of cloaked NOD units. On that note, the same thing could be applied to vehicles if it isn't there already.

Imagine you are an infantry unit in the field and hear the muffled sound of an engine and tires coming up behind you. Could it inspire paranoia? Probably, but it would be epic. The only hitch is that if you are driving a vehicle the sounds of footsteps and other vehicles would be greatly diminished because you would already be in a vehicle making its own noise.

[DoctorB0NG]

I have thought about the issues with them having melee weapons. The addition of an additional mechanic to the game would help with that and could be universally applied to all characters. Footstep sound effects. I haven't paid too much attention to this detail when playing but I don't believe RenegadeX has them.

Being able to hear footsteps of other nearby players, the volume would depend on the distance, would give fair warning of SBH units approaching and keep base defenders on their toes. It would be like the audio counterpart to the glimmer of cloaked NOD units. On that note, the same thing could be applied to vehicles if it isn't there already.

Imagine you are an infantry unit in the field and hear the muffled sound of an engine and tires coming up behind you. Could it inspire paranoia? Probably, but it would be epic. The only hitch is that if you are driving a vehicle the sounds of footsteps and other vehicles would be greatly diminished because you would already be in a vehicle making its own noise.

While I do like where your head's at with adding footsteps, I dont think they would work too well with the current noise level in Renegade-x. Renegade-x is a bit more chaotic than your typical CoD shooter where footsteps are more advantageous to hear. Also, I usually play the game in third person (as do most players) and I would see anyone coming up to me.

[Tarvin]

Ah. I mainly play RenegadeX in a first person view so I tend to consider things from that perspective but that is something I hadn't thought of. Third-Person view would provide warning to show a glimmer coming up behind you to allow for a reaction.

Though, for a SBH to sneak up behind someone it may require their target to be standing still. Also, a balance to keep SBH with melee from being OP, a weaker melee weapon. I think it wouldn't be out of place to suspect they would be equipped with smaller low profile knife for cloaking reasons. So while they have the advantage of stealth, they wouldn't be wise to bring it out except in a desperate situation unless attacking someone standing by themselves.

I can see them being a given a damage boost when stabbing someone in the back though but that would only be good for one swipe before the target brings their own knife around so the first strike had better count. Audible footsteps would still be a good addition to the game and add a touch of realism in my opinion. They would also be a good warning system for players that prefer first person view.

The only thing I'm torn on is whether a SBH would fully decloak when doing a melee attack. I'm of the opinion that it should only halfway undo the cloak so they can become hidden more quickly after an ambush attack. Though if they are uncloaked already after shooting a gun using a knife would prevent them from recloaking.

[Truxa]

Tarvin, your post(s) make me wonder sometimes, did you play the original C&C Renegade? Because this post sure make it look like you didn't.

Here are a few reasons why a knife is NOT an option to this game!

1. Renegade X is a remake of a game called C&C Renegade from 2002. This game is supposed to stay close and true to that concept with certain C&C-ish additions. There were no melee weapons in C&C Renegade.

2. In no C&C game pre C&C3 (a.k.a. EA's destruction of the C&C genre) have I EVER seen a knifefight in a C&C RTS game.

3. This is not CoD or BF4 where you could insta-kill players with a knife and I'm sure if this game turns out to be a CoD/BF4 remake in C&C setting, most of the oldies are going back to the Renegade 2002 rather than playing such bullshit.

4. To compensate for a knife having no need for ammo, you get a SILENCED pistol with unlimited ammo!

5. Knifes don't belong in this game! It needs to introduce a new game mechanic with it's inherent bugs.

Call me elitist, but I love Renegade-X as what it is becoming and I HATE CoD of BF4 type of play.

[DoctorB0NG]

Tarvin, your post(s) make me wonder sometimes, did you play the original C&C Renegade? Because this post sure make it look like you didn't.

Who cares if this dude played original, you can make your points without berating him.

[MusicNote]

Hello. I've played games like insurgency,red orchestra ostfront 44-45,halo,perfect dark,and the original Command and Conquer Renegade and I'd just like to say,for a melee system to work in Renegade X,it would have to function differently from your typical modern shooter.

*Instant kills are a no go. COD had the worst melee system by far,always favoring the player with better latency.

*Halo had an interesting mechanic. Melee attacks to the front would knock the enemy back and disable his shields,a hit to the back of the head would be an instant kill.

>>Being able to knock enemies off of cliffs at the push of a button might drastically change the game. (Players might avoid areas like that mesa on "walls" map. )

*In Red Orchestra,you could "charge up" your melee attacks by holding down the melee button. A charged up attack was an instant kill. Melee attacks were a little slow,just tapping the melee key would injure but not kill the enemy.

[SFJake]

Again, the idea makes no sense. The melee weapon adds nothing. Its as if he's not playing the game. Footstep sounds can probably be made a bit louder but I do believe I've heard them a few times.

Comparing the flamethrower to melee attacks kind of speak to how ridiculous this discussion is. Again, this is Renegade. Know what game you're proposing for before going on about "how modern games embraced it". Modern games have basically no points whatsoever in common with Renegade, and Renegade is way better for it.

Broad sweeping melee attacks are ridiculous, and precise attacks would be useless, again unless backstab is in the game which would be awful.

The only suggestion I like is making a melee attack a "pushback" attack. Thats something that could have a place.

Other than that, the melee attack would need not to have a broad attack (again, kind of ridiculous), be precise (no auto-aim) and do light damage (around 50). No damage/backstab modifier. Thats basically an additional pistol shot for someone if they get close to you. Thats it. But thats a worthless feature anyway and the gunfights don't need this.

If you're fighting in a corridor and standing around the open while reloading you're doing it wrong, anyway.

[Tarvin]

Yes, I do play the original Renegade and was just playing through the single player campaign before leaping into RenegadeX just for the fun of it. Anyway, a lot has already been added to the game and changed from what Renegade was. There are new weapons, alternate secondary weapons, and more. At the same time there is a limit to how many weapons a person can carry unlike in Renegade where on some servers you could collect a full arsenal.

I am a game designer. I look for new ways to do things to give people fresh experiences. If something doesn't work out then it would be removed to regain the balance that was lost. If it works then everyone has a more entertaining experience and the game is better for it.

There is one misconception. Knifes would not be instant kill weapons. They would deal set damage depending on where they hit and perhaps have a slight bleeding mechanic. Knife fighting would have several important balancing factors.

1. Knives would not be instakill. It would be more like Halo where you have to attack someone multiple times to kill something. The important difference is that back attacks would NOT be instakill.

2. SBH knives would be smaller and less powerful

3. When SBH melee they would deal bonus damage to back attacks but still not instakill giving defending players the chance to respond.

4. SBH melee would cause them to partially decloke to the full glimmer just before they would fade from sight. They would recloak quicker but would be plainly visible to everyone during this time.

5. Melee attackers would block both other players trying to melee and direct gunfire causing players to limit knife combat to close quarters like attacking beacon defenders or people in close quarters.

Also, MusicNote mentioned some very interesting things I hadn't considered. If you attack someone from behind there could be a push effect. This effect would probably be lessened for SBH vs other characters to keep them from being overpowered.

[DoctorB0NG]

Melee has no place in this game. Plain and simple. It adds no depth whatsoever to fights and would only introduce more problems and solve none.

[Tarvin]

Just curious and want to dissect your opinion more Clash. Given the system I described where do you think the potential issues would be? I'm not beyond the notion that my idea could use improvement and listening to people that disagree is often the best way to figure out how things can be improved.

[RoundShades]

As a new class, melee might be cool. Or as a dedicated secondary. As it is though, adding it to existing weapons changes fights significantly. A lot of balance in fact, depends on the sole use of weapons being poor at close range. If you add "CoD Knives" you buff longrange classes at the closest of ranges.

Arguably, when rifle bashing turned to instakill knives in CoD, it was the poorest balance choice ever made. Then, as it developed, the mechanics just got poorer and poorer, it was so unreliable last I played in Black Ops 2, you couldn't stab prone enemies in standing but you made the animation, you could lunge into someones model without a kill, you could slice air and get a kill, and again, this is a huge buff to the weapons balanced specifically to have a poor rate of fire and clumsy close range hipfire accuracy.

Basically, if you gained melee, you would also take away entirely the autorifle jump circle strafing combat we currently have, that even classic Renegade had. That would be taken and removed, and what we would have instead is people hugging corners trying to get someone to be melee-able.

If it was a shortrange dedicated primary or secondary weapon, that you had to switch to, replaced pistol, and it wasn't some knife mechanic but a sword or swung weapon that had a significant range that isn't necesarily model-touching, it would be cool. Less CoD and more sword-from-metal-gear-solid.

[GatsuFox]

A dedicated melee key would be great. A combat knife of some sorts that deals massive damage (100 or so). If it worked in Tribes it can work in this.

It would compliment the fact that you can easily run out of ammo in this game and have NOTHING to do when it happens. A melee attack can provide an option in times like this. Also, this would make SBH pretty interesting as they can open up on snipers with melee and then blast them to hell afterwards.

This all sounds fun to me.

Maybe the melee can even have some depth like sprint + melee = lunge attack, side stepping + melee = short range sweep for multiple targets. moving forward or backward + melee = ranged fast poke. Think Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast (or Academy) but not as in-depth. Even have the different attacks deal different damage.

Actually this sounds really really fun.

[RoundShades]

A 400 weapon like the carbine that isn't the carbine, would be nice.

As long as it isn't a freebie weapon or a free mechanic given to every class. A dedicated weapon, primary or secondary, would at least be a slot and credits spent on it, thus a decision to opt into it's use.

SBH wouldn't be that powerful. They aren't invisible at the type of range you would need for it, thus getting them stabbed back or simply shot with autorifle/shotgun.

[GatsuFox]

A 400 weapon like the carbine that isn't the carbine, would be nice.

As long as it isn't a freebie weapon or a free mechanic given to every class. A dedicated weapon, primary or secondary, would at least be a slot and credits spent on it, thus a decision to opt into it's use.

SBH wouldn't be that powerful. They aren't invisible at the type of range you would need for it, thus getting them stabbed back or simply shot with autorifle/shotgun.

It should be a freebie weapon. It should be a dedicated button for melee attacks. If it wasn't a dedicated button then nobody would buy it because in almost all cases ranged > melee and the only people who WOULD buy it would be dumb SBH that already hinder their teams enough.

I think you're overestimating the human reaction time. It'd be easy for a SBH to open up with a knife coming from any direction as long as they're on a path to intersect an enemy player. It'd be fun though and give a real assassin feel to the SBH, which is their primary purpose anyways.

[RoundShades]

Here is a new post in this thread to pitch a new idea related to it:

On the topic of a melee secondary weapon, what if, assuming it were free and did 100 points of damage and wasn't incredibly rapidfire (rate of fire of .5, once every 2 seconds)...

...what if it also reintroduced the "rolling" mechanic from Black Dawn back into the game?

Like, seriously, what if melee was just a more limited sidearm, with the added benefit of an evasion skill via rolling?

Ofc, rolling would only be available when wielding the melee secondary, would have to be nerfed a bit, like 1 every 4 seconds, perhaps a decent range of lunge, perhaps "locks" sprint afterwards too during it's 4 second recovery to prevent it being just used for obsessive speed increase.

[Handepsilon]

That actually sounds nice as long as it doesn't turn RenX into a ninja game (everyone wielding a knife just to get to places... like CS)

[Axesor]

If the game was FPS only I would agree with melee, but its not. Hell, I would be happy if this game was fps only and many problems would be solved.

So I must agree with others that this feature doesnt fit in Renegade X.

[RoundShades]

If the game was FPS only I would agree with melee, but its not. Hell, I would be happy if this game was fps only and many problems would be solved.

So I must agree with others that this feature doesnt fit in Renegade X.

But wait, SMNC and TF2 are 3rd person shoulder view only, and they have tons of melee. That is also where I got the roll idea from, because SMNC has it attached to melee weapons as a secondary fire. You press secondary fire, you roll.

Besides, being first or third naturally caters to more, and honestly I don't see a problem with that. As long as you got your first person view, why bother what everyone else has. Becasue they can jump you around corners? Then use third person just for corners, and always walk around corners as wide as possible. Perhaps use 1 of your 3 frags generously to check corners?

[Handepsilon]

TF2 is FPS...

or are you talking about something besidea Team Fortress?

[RoundShades]

TF2 is FPS...

or are you talking about something besidea Team Fortress?

Edit: Shit... you are right... I guess I play too much of.... one of those two games I mentioned...

...meh, still going to argue it's case. Besides, a lot of people request third person view in Planetside2 as well. I mean, they are always shot down and it ain't guna happen, but really it would help see what cover actually provides you and what enemy is going to blindside you.

Idk, my last arguement though, is that so far AFAIK there has been nothing removed from Renegade in RenX, repurposed at most. So far that has been a generally good thing. Actually, nothing has been removed BESIDE the instant-180 button (X default key in Renegade)... I'd rather them add that, than remove 3rd person.

[Axesor]

Besides, being first or third naturally caters to more, and honestly I don't see a problem with that. As long as you got your first person view, why bother what everyone else has. Becasue they can jump you around corners? Then use third person just for corners, and always walk around corners as wide as possible. Perhaps use 1 of your 3 frags generously to check corners?

Iam just sayin that it would be nice if the game was FPS only. Now Iam using mostly TPS becouse its easier to aim, you can see more widely what is going on around and close to you. Dont worry, I know how to play.

There are more factors than you mentioned about this issue and generaly its more comprehensive.

Melee in this game is just big nosence. How you dare compare game mechanics of this games with RenX LOL. I played Global Agenda in its glorious times, also TPS but its compleeeetely different.

Sometimes I think you are just trolling me guys!

[Canucck]

Just like this

[NodSaibot]

Yeah... no.

[Solid.Acid]

In CnC Renegade, there is code for Melee moves (think about the bossfights with shorty and Mendoza)

In CnC Reborn (the oldest and alive renegade mod afaik) the is melee for the mutant hijacker (the TS char also gained stealth and a crowbar)

Then i don't mind if infantry(even SBH) would get a instakill melee move if he manages to sneak behind someone...

Ofcourse i'd curse and think i'm stupid for not using my headphones, once i get shanked...

[sterps]

Honestly, not interested in melee moves. This is a war game, so i don't think people will be lining up to play for that reason. Besides we have more important things to worry about in the next patch, like getting this thing as close to balanced as possible

[NodSaibot]

There's no real use for it anyway. Unless you lunged forward instea of knifing directly in front of you

[RoundShades]

There's no real use for it anyway. Unless you lunged forward instea of knifing directly in front of you

*adding the roll ability to the secondary fire or reload key*