Beta 4 Preliminary Changelist

[Ruud033]

I've noticed that like 90% of this entire thread is about the Havoc/Sakura and the Ramjet.

Let's first of all, Thank the developers and who ever involved for creating this awesome new beta. I thank you for your hard work, I enjoy the game alot already, as it is right now (beta3) and I think it can only be better from now on. I can only encourage you guys to keep on doing this awesome job and I hope I can make a difference or addition in testing of beta 4. Keep in mind that, whilst people might complain alot, I think they do this for a reason, and that is because they enjoy the game so much they are already playing. This means you're doing already one heck of a job!

Now my feedback:

I like the new gameplaying style you introduced by adding these new features to the EMP grenade. It creates a whole new playing field and a new ballgame. I do prefer that, for example, the timed c4 gets replaced on a hotwire instead of the proxy mines.

A thing on the EMP grenade, I think it has got tons of smoke with it. I think it could service as a smoke grenade itself! I would like to ask you to remove like 50 to 80% of the smoke particles within the EMP grenade to make it less obvious that it actually is an EMP grenade.

I personally find it hard to believe that Electro magnetic pulses produce smoke particles at all.. However, on the other side, I do understand that it should be noticed by the enemy team when one throws an EMP at an enemy building for example, hence the smoke particles. I'd prefer if you would bring this down by the previous mentioned amount, since the "building under attack" message is also there. I like the plasma flickering though. I think it resembles the current ionising the air.

With the previous change, I think smoke grenades will be used more for actual smoke screens.

GDI APC to be made less wobbly, does this mean that it isnt as surly as before? There were times that I was thinking that I was about to do some backflips or something in beta 3.

I really appreciate the alternative firing mode on the mobius! Thank you for this. Will this mean that they can shoot plasma balls or something? I think that would be cool.

I am also really fond of the changes to the MRLS / Arty shells which (on paper) seem to be more balanced to me already! I'd like to test this in beta4.

My thoughts on the flying vehicles: Descending / ascending is horrible right now. When I'd like to descend from a higher altitute to repair my vehicle it takes ages. Especially with loads of anti air / homing missiles / ramjet rifles / enemy air vehicles on my tail, I think it is nearly impossible to dodge out of a battle with +- 100 HP health due to the descend.

Compare renX to for example battlefield 3/4 (which I've played alot) and I think you'll see that their choppers' climing/ascending skills are like 60% of their descending skills. Keep in mind that, their descending skills are way faster than they even can fly forward, due to the rotor blades, spinning slower and therefore thrusting less air and creating less lift. Gravity can do it's work then. In BF4 it's even so that if you keep pressing "S" (down) the chopper will eventually come to a hold and will shutdown. Meby this is a feature you can built in as well, I'd really think this is an awesome small game changing feature that makes air more capable of defending itself by dodging several direct attacks.

To summarise;

I'm really fond of your work as developers and I appreciate every hour you've put into the game. Please take the feedback I gave you as constructive critisism, I'm not a native English speaker so I might have told some stories in a Dutch-like way.

Thanks and peace out.

[Canucck]

And awareness, don't forget it. While scoping, you really are going to have no idea that a tank is coming from the side and has already got an aim on you

Scoping/unscoping is pretty much instant. If you really need to be scoped for more than a few seconds, just toggling it works fine. If someone gets caught out while scoped it's a player error. That drawback has a very very minor impact on balance imo, far less impact than rng on your shots.

[Handepsilon]

Okay, I guess I'm defeated in this argument. but I'm still going for the 'wait and see before protesting' philosophy

[noxidevad]

As a reply to page 7 or 8 about weapon drops being activated, i can't speak for TmX, but i don't see why we would activate weapon drops, there is already enough folk in renx who do nothing else but pussy around with sbhs doing nothing for there team, last thing we need is them whoring weapon drops.

However, we may have a "2nd server" where we perhaps may put this setting on, but as of now it's highly unlikely. but who knows.

[Glacious]

What would be nice if there was a setting/command to enable it so that weapon drops became enabled once the Weapons Factory or Air Strip is destroyed.

[SFJake]

i can't speak for TmX, but i don't see why we would activate weapon drops

Because its fun?

Sigh.

I'd much rather we ask for a limitations on SBH (and probably techs) for drops rather than just never use it.

[DoctorB0NG]

i can't speak for TmX, but i don't see why we would activate weapon drops

Because its fun?

Sigh.

I'd much rather we ask for a limitations on SBH (and probably techs) for drops rather than just never use it.

I'll consider turning it on for the TmX-US server but I'm fairly confident the TmX-EU server won't run it.

[MrSunshine]

What would be nice if there was a setting/command to enable it so that weapon drops became enabled once the Weapons Factory or Air Strip is destroyed.

Probably possible, but since they'd be able to be picked up by both teams I'm not sure how this would work. (Would only one team be able to drop weapons on death, and would only one team be able to pick them up?)

Not sure about weapon drops, but I'm sure we'll see if they're fun or not during B4 testing.

[noxidevad]

i can't speak for TmX, but i don't see why we would activate weapon drops

Because its fun?

Sigh.

I'd much rather we ask for a limitations on SBH (and probably techs) for drops rather than just never use it.

Then feel free to run your server with weapon drops, problem solved.

[SFJake]

Then feel free to run your server with weapon drops, problem solved.

Don't waste my time with that answer.

The entirety of Renegade is pretty much ruled by 2 servers which have communities to make them live above the others. Making a server does nothing and talking about it just insulting, when I'm trying instead to discuss it with those communities, to find common ground thats most fun for everyone instead of having to dismiss an interesting feature entirely, which would be a shame.

We're just a little bunch of people. Splitting up is not an option and a waste of time to consider.

[Canucck]

Weapon drops are a joke that break the game completely. Game is crap when half the players have a shotgun/sniper/remotes/repgun/lg combo on a 1k char. With so few servers it would have to basically become a default feature in the game anyway, which could never be balanced ever

[SFJake]

Weapon drops are a joke that break the game completely. Game is crap when half the players have a shotgun/sniper/remotes/repgun/lg combo on a 1k char. With so few servers it would have to basically become a default feature in the game anyway, which could never be balanced ever

Such broad exaggerations makes this such a fun discussion.

There isn't even a balance issue in what you say, just a personal dislike.

Everyone wants combos, but you can't just "get them". As long as they don't make you drop your weapons on suicide so you can give yourself or your friends weapons while in base (which was dumb).

WeaponDrops spice up the late game when buildings are fewer by a LOT, giving you chances of stealing super precious weapons and turning the tide in a way other than a random crate.

[RypeL]

To prevent multi weapon combos our current plan is to only allow you to pick up one weapon. Once you pick up another one it replaces the weapon you´ve previously picked up.

[A-Rodge]

To prevent multi weapon combos our current plan is to only allow you to pick up one weapon. Once you pick up another one it replaces the weapon you´ve previously picked up.

Not bad! I was worried about characters with every weapon becoming completely omnipotent but this eases my fears.

[Handepsilon]

To prevent multi weapon combos our current plan is to only allow you to pick up one weapon. Once you pick up another one it replaces the weapon you´ve previously picked up.

Wait, people weren't assuming this way?

Goddamn my Newbieness

But I'm kinda concerned about process like

1. Buy a Ramjet

2. Suicide

3. Buy an SBH

4. Pick up your ramjet

How will/did you address this? Or does the cost compensate it just enough?

[Canucck]

you should add these back, people were talking about it on tmx forums (the icons above head for different voice comms, was part of scripts.dll)

[Handepsilon]

Agreed

http://www.thematrixren.net/index.php?/ ... -commands/

[SFJake]

you should add these back, people were talking about it on tmx forums (the icons above head for different voice comms, was part of scripts.dll)

Yes, I would adore this. This was brought up multiple times actually. Its very difficult sometimes to understand who is speaking.

I'm serious when it says that it would take only one big icon to rally people.

One big icon to make sure people rush together and know where to go, or who to follow.

Thats all it can take.

Was also ridiculously useful when asking for repairs, or finding out who needs repairs.

[RypeL]

On it. We will make sure that these are in the final B4 release.

[RokumanZA]

On it. We will make sure that these are in the final B4 release.

Much appreciated, these will make the voice commands much more effective Also had time to read through the entire changelist, Great Work! Beta 4 is definately looking like the most improved version thus far

[XD_ERROR_XD]

On it. We will make sure that these are in the final B4 release.

Awwwwh yeahh!!

[SFJake]

On it. We will make sure that these are in the final B4 release.

Have to admit, you guys are on fire this year.

[Truxa]

The Devs are here to please everyone. Hopefully, to stay true to Renegade and not change it too much into BF4 and/or COD.

Keep the Ramjet!

[RokumanZA]

Keep the Ramjet!

[Handepsilon]

It has started...

The beta testing has started...

[Ap2000]

It has started...

The beta testing has started...

Where?

[Unit]

LMAO

the ramjet getting 30 damage per shot to HEAVY ARMOUR is total bullshit.

if you dont want the ramjet to one shot infantry make it do 190 damage, or 199 damage. a drop of 50 to infantry and an increase to 30 on heavy armour is NOT BALANCED.

welcome to the cross-map antivehicle weapon here to make pics and raves even more redundant than they already are, maps with long sight lines are just going to be completely boned.

next you will try and balance the pic AGAINST the changes you have made to the ramjet and make pics do 150 damage to heavy vehicles and 200 damage against light armour or something equally dumb.

also where is the patch notes is "Airstrikes have been completely removed because they are game breakingly dumb on most stock maps"

[DoctorB0NG]

LMAO

the ramjet getting 30 damage per shot to HEAVY ARMOUR is total bullshit.

if you dont want the ramjet to one shot infantry make it do 190 damage, or 199 damage. a drop of 50 to infantry and an increase to 30 on heavy armour is NOT BALANCED.

welcome to the cross-map antivehicle weapon here to make pics and raves even more redundant than they already are, maps with long sight lines are just going to be completely boned.

next you will try and balance the pic AGAINST the changes you have made to the ramjet and make pics do 150 damage to heavy vehicles and 200 damage against light armour or something equally dumb.

also where is the patch notes is "Airstrikes have been completely removed because they are game breakingly dumb on most stock maps"

Internal testing is beginning soon. These changes will be tested thoroughly and potentially adjusted if they are game breaking.

[Henk]

That's a big changelist, i'm very excited for beta 4.

I think the changes to Ramjet are good, especially that they're no longer able to kill free infantry with a single body shot, we'll see how it plays I guess.

I have a question about this:

Players will now switch to previously equipped weapon from any explosive-type weapon(s) once the ammo count has reached 0.

I understand how this is useful with Mines and Timed C4, but what if you want to throw your last Remote C4 and blow it right after, I do this a lot and I hope it doesn't get changed.

I'm also very excited about the support for custom maps, is it possible to get a RenX building and a Mammoth Tank for scale reference right now, so I can already start creating an environment with correct scaling? They don't need to be functional or anything, they just need to be the correct size..

[RoundShades]

TI have a question about this:

Players will now switch to previously equipped weapon from any explosive-type weapon(s) once the ammo count has reached 0.

I understand how this is useful with Mines and Timed C4, but what if you want to throw your last Remote C4 and blow it right after, I do this a lot and I hope it doesn't get changed.

It should either not do it with remotes, or it should do it with a 4 second delay (enough time for it to land after a really high throw)

LMAO. the ramjet getting 30 damage per shot to HEAVY ARMOUR is total bullshit.

if you dont want the ramjet to one shot infantry make it do 190 damage, or 199 damage. a drop of 50 to infantry and an increase to 30 on heavy armour is NOT BALANCED.

welcome to the cross-map antivehicle weapon here to make pics and raves even more redundant than they already are, maps with long sight lines are just going to be completely boned.

next you will try and balance the pic AGAINST the changes you have made to the ramjet and make pics do 150 damage to heavy vehicles and 200 damage against light armour or something equally dumb.

also where is the patch notes is "Airstrikes have been completely removed because they are game breakingly dumb on most stock maps"

The ramjet is actually less redundant against the pic/rail. That is actually BECAUSE those retain their 200 damage. Those still DO 1 hit kill infantry. Usually from a range where they can get clipped by a bullet first, not full-map. WITH a slightly longer reload between shots and clips I beleive. They even keep their massive vehicle armor damage.

That is why the ramjet got things to comphensate. Though I thought that should be extra ammo. The heavy armor slight damage buff pretty much immitates "anti-tank rounds" in current FPS shooters, which isn't the worse "fps immitation" one can do, it isn't like they are adding killstreaks...

Ask for the airstrikes, they are adding smoke, and besides, airstrikes ARENT that lethal. You pretty much use them on a pile of tanks camping a base, in hopes that not all the tanks have spaces for passengers and you can kill the repairing folk. That is an IMPORTANT role to KEEP the airstrike for. Airstrikes, EMP nades, and SMOKE, are all added to cite specific missing roles, breaking a base siege, disarming proxy-piles without a hotwire/tech, and allowing infantry to walk into an enemy base for a brief moment.

It has started...

The beta testing has started...

Where?

I wana p̶l̶a̶y̶ watch it! Anyone recording?

[Glacious]

I wana p̶l̶a̶y̶ watch it! Anyone recording?

Sadly there won't be any streaming of Beta 4 due to possible changes that may come after the closed Beta session, to be honest it won't and shouldn't be long at all from when the closed session starts to when Beta 4 is released (hopefully)

Alot could still change as stated above as that's what the testing sessions are for to make sure nothing is game breaking or over powered.

[Xtractor]

you should add these back, people were talking about it on tmx forums (the icons above head for different voice comms, was part of scripts.dll)

Yeah very usefull when you say 'Ennemy Spoted' and see from where its been spoted

[RoundShades]

I wana p̶l̶a̶y̶ watch it! Anyone recording?

Sadly there won't be any streaming of Beta 4 due to possible changes that may come after the closed Beta session, to be honest it won't and shouldn't be long at all from when the closed session starts to when Beta 4 is released (hopefully)

Alot could still change as stated above as that's what the testing sessions are for to make sure nothing is game breaking or over powered.

Eh, I always thought the streaming like done for previous releases always excited the hype. I can see how that can be a bad thing too though (I'm a popular at the Uber Entertainment forums for instance).

Either way, I hope it's not too much about "OP or UP". It would be nice if nothing is broken use-only or worthless never-use. However, any overly finetuned changes submitted by only the best players, will probably feel clunky to regular players.

I mean, some games do this and their damages to anything "strong" are capped low while "hard to use" is left normal which becomes "high" and then... well I won't beat around the bush, then SMGs get to be retarded strong and then nobody likes Call of Duty anymore...

...but they have terrible balancing in their most modern games anyway, so I am sure that won't happen here. Honestly, so far the changes look great and if any changes are made to the changes I would expect them to only be "better idea replaced it" or "made an exploitable situation"... and not "people shot other people too well with it" I mean honestly the only reason the ramjet is seeing a change is it was pretty much "exploitable", different to the chem warrior which usually needs adjustment but is merely a cheesy "shoots too well". It never decides a whole game and the chem warrior isn't all that is seen.

I'd like to hope and think that more people are testing "can you place beacons inside of geometry" and "can you spray chem through corners completely safe behind cover" or some other wierd junk, more than balance.

[Glacious]

Oh trust me I know having spoke to a few clan members that once Beta 4 has started we are going to be spending plenty of time on the new maps trying to glitch and find any problems we can whether than be beacon placement, defence blind spots, Chem issues, hidden areas, invisible zones, all sorts really its more testing the game/maps more than playing a proper game so not going to be as fun as people think more spending hours running around not playing the basic Command & Conquer mode.

Balancing wise I think they want the feedback from the tester whether it be positive or negative and will then decide amongst themselves what may need addressing I certainly don't think we will all get our own way with everything but I am sure will be much more even game when Beta 4 is fully released.

[RoundShades]

Oh trust me I know having spoke to a few clan members that once Beta 4 has started we are going to be spending plenty of time on the new maps trying to glitch and find any problems we can whether than be beacon placement, defence blind spots, Chem issues, hidden areas, invisible zones, all sorts really its more testing the game/maps more than playing a proper game so not going to be as fun as people think more spending hours running around not playing the basic Command & Conquer mode.

Balancing wise I think they want the feedback from the tester whether it be positive or negative and will then decide amongst themselves what may need addressing I certainly don't think we will all get our own way with everything but I am sure will be much more even game when Beta 4 is fully released.

I WOULD like to see more suggestions on "lines of sight" and "opportune locations for cover"...

...making sure any single location isn't absurdly distant and well covered and able to see several important lanes at once, or making sure any single location isn't so massively wide open that one cannot cross the entire clearing in a single twelve second sprint. In which case, SOMETHING should be in the middle to take cover behind...

Watching Kenz make Canyon makes me pretty sure of that map's lanes. He tested many things even in-video as far as vehicle and sniper line of sight. I sure hope someone tests that sand dune for vehicles to hit it. I suspect secretly that artillery (wrong team I know but stolen vehs) can make it arc enough to hit it or that some curve with the rockets can hit it or y'know that vehicle stacking trick? Yeah... put an mrls on a mammy and you get the vantage point to ranged kill the air.

[Unit]

It doesnt matter what you say, reducing effectiveness of a sniper rifle against infantry by %25 and then increasing the effectiveness of the same gun by %600 to stuff its not even supposed to be shooting at is simply another one of those decisions that just keeps alienating more people from the game.

and when you have entire teams spamming airstrikes at the same location are you trying to tell me thats fun gameplay?

even 2 people doing an airstrike at the same location is the very opposite of fun for the recieving end. and there is no limit of how many airstrikes can be done. not only is the damage extremely not fun to recieve from an uncounterable force, in a lot of situations there isnt anywhere else to go. NOT ONLY THAT but the GDI airstrike is the most annoying collection of sounds in the whole world.

on maps like field, those that are stuck in base stay in base because airstrikes keep you there, "oh but it discourages camping" no it doesnt, it actually enforces camping because trying to push out is going to get you airstriked again.

trying to organise a rush, sorry that one guy who wants to be rambo just put an airstrike on you IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR BASE no less, guess this must be the fun people are talking about.

also bring me city flying with ramjets that do 30 damage to heavy armoured tanks and tell me that its fun.

[RoundShades]

on maps like field, those that are stuck in base stay in base because airstrikes keep you there, "oh but it discourages camping" no it doesnt, it actually enforces camping because trying to push out is going to get you airstriked again.

Airstrikes are just cheese called in-base. Airstrikes are much more effective called on the opening of your base that your enemy occupies, because it kills their repairmen, and more than 1 called really thins the hp of their vehicles. That allows you to PUSH out. If they call one, you have the benefit to drive at least. If they drive from your airstrike, they are leaving shelling your base. If you drive from theirs, you drive right into the wide open field where you can dodge an airstrike by moving in any direction up until you get to their opening.

Airstrikes were called underpowered not 2 patches ago. They barely got improved from that. How are they overpowered now? They aren't. They just do a useful function of killing enemies that are unable to move, like snipers, tank sieges, and beacon cover which you don't mention but is by far the most powerful use it has.

As far as snipers, you still claim ramjets don't belong shooting heavy armor. Ramjet snipers are out in the field no? Who is to say with this buff, that they can't shoot at tanks while they are waiting for openings on repairmen? If they had more ammo instead of c4, this would be 1k gold even if pic/rail keep their 200 damage 1 hit kill infantry and full damage on heavy armor. At least it wouldn't suffocate a team without a bar/hand via killing all infantry all the time.

EDIT: You know what IS hilarious though? When you shell the hell out of the airstrip on islands, then you call an airstrike directly between the airstrip door and refinery door, then you switch to shelling the refinery. THAT may very well actually score you a building kill, and the airstrike caller about 6-12 tech kills... mwuahwahwahwahwa /evillaugh

[Unit]

Airstrikes are just cheese called in-base. Airstrikes are much more effective called on the opening of your base that your enemy occupies, because it kills their repairmen, and more than 1 called really thins the hp of their vehicles. That allows you to PUSH out.

this logic doesnt really have a place in renegade and is again another one of those things that just alienates people whom would GLADLY play what is otherwise a phenomenal piece of work.

why do you deserve to push out of the base because one guy placed 1 airstrike. were yourself and the devs really that bad at the game that you honestly feel that is great gameplay, we dont need full, concentrated combined ops. i'll throw uncounterable damage quantifiers at the enemy so they are so weak the piss poor organisation of your team is enough to slowly leak out of the base.

the economy is also so bad in this game that you never dont have thousands upon thousands of credits, so the airstrikes cost wouldnt even matter unless they costs upwards of 4000 credits a pop

I can not even begin to fathom after playing the original for SO LONG why any dev claiming to be recreating renegade would do that, it is beyond rediculous.

Team play using means the enemy has a change to counter was ALWAYS the best and MOST FUN way to break a seige or enforce one.

the game is being watered down completely and people are like "yea thats good, good job devs wowsers" fucking really now..... oh my god.

How many more people do you think would play this game if the devs would stop with the unbearably bad balance decisions and actually make the game closer to its roots? im not sure why you would set out to alienate the very people who were most likely going to want to play the game FIRST.

As far as snipers, you still claim ramjets don't belong shooting heavy armor. Ramjet snipers are out in the field no? Who is to say with this buff, that they can't shoot at tanks while they are waiting for openings on repairmen?

tank snipers were always retarded in the original game, but they didnt matter, with dumb changes like this you make them a legitimate threat that should not exist, they get no penalty to movement whilst being able to rip appart heavily armoured vehicles, pretty sure that anti materiel sniper rifles cant move which is what balances them and makes them doing absurd damage to vehicles okay, this kind of heavy handed change is just R.I.P balance.

once again its people like "i want to be able to do everything all at the same time, i dont want a team" havoc sakura getting more timed c4, lol dumb, havoc sakura being able to take on vehicles NP, dumb, you have a class system for a reason, you have a specific class which is supposed to be and has been used to destroy millions of buildings with C4 at the expense of having limited offensive capacity of just a pistol but no now you can buy guns so thats not a weakness anymore.

ramjets were countered by apcs and larger tanks welp guess not, must be nice to have a unit with no counters, completely unbalanced.

At least it wouldn't suffocate a team without a bar/hand via killing all infantry all the time.

that was a consequence of being bad at the game, you get hammered by ramjets and snipers, but you should be safe if you still have your weapons factory because you can get in a tank right? NOPE not anymore, now you just need a swarm of havocs and sakuras to kill any and everything that can move and only 2 to kill any structure.

EDIT: You know what IS hilarious though? When you shell the hell out of the airstrip on islands, then you call an airstrike directly between the airstrip door and refinery door, then you switch to shelling the refinery. THAT may very well actually score you a building kill, and the airstrike caller about 6-12 tech kills... mwuahwahwahwahwa /evillaugh

and that is considered balance in the game? this surely doesnt make more people not want to play this game than those who otherwise would be quite happy to do so if not for things like this.

[RoundShades]

All of these are anti-snowball anti-stomp mechanics. So called good players at both Ren and RenX both agree with them because stomps r no funz.

Why are you standing against them? The single thing I agree on is...

the economy is also so bad in this game that you never dont have thousands upon thousands of credits

This is true. There needs to be a more constant spendature of credits, or the least favorite choice would be less credits from harvy dump or income ticks come slower.

Generally, most the people who played RenX when it started, left in beta 2, not in release. Release had OP airstrikes, so what? Beta 2 had bugs, something that is at an all time low. But players are finnicky to return. Your claims where they went are false, its not half what I just explained in solidity.

Again, snipers, they are not in no way a do-all unit. They still anti-infantry. I still bet they contribute to anti-air. They also contribute to anti-armor. PIC have to be at a more dangerous range, but in cqc they are better anti-infantry and in field they are better anti armor. They are more powerful after this patch if anything. Volt's have more dps than any of the other 1k so it has it's uses too, despite it has the most opportunity to be shot as it exploits it.

The 1ks are hopefully in the best place they ever been. Hopefully. There are improvements to be had, but this isn't "ruining the spirit", the devs told everyone long ago that "RenX is not a Renegade CLONE". Besides, who wants to play a straight up clone, with no anti-stomp mechanics, at least 6 completely useless classes in the roster, broken ramjets that most everyone agrees... honestly being able to infiltrate bases with infantry using an expensive one time item that is highly visible to the enemy, being able to disarm mine-clusters, being able to supress repairpower of a base siege, and having all units being viable to use, is a big improvement...

[RypeL]

To all snipers: You´ve heard my oppinion on the sniper spread and how i defended it but we´ve also heard yours and we came to the conclusion that the damage nerf to the ramjet might be enough nerf for now. And we dont want sniper spread to become the heated topic that distracts from every other of the many changes. Thats why we came to the conclusion that Beta 4 will most likely NOT introduce sniper spread. Maybe the ramjet might instead get a slight increase in fire interval though.

The first closed Beta will still have the sniper spread but it will be removed shortly.

Other things like Havoc/Sakura getting additional C4 is also discussed and not set in stone at all atm.

Theres a good chance that we will rethink the role of EMP and Airstrikes till Beta 4 comes out aswell.

[SFJake]

So only the damage nerf against infantry, no change to light or heavy armor damage either?

I think thats great news. I'm guessing you'll still test the new ramjet in closed beta, though.

I wouldn't be against the C4 if you think the ramjet is too weak after this. I mean, all 1000$ other than it are good against buildings. I don't think he needs that, though. I think the ramjet with only that one nerf STILL be used enough but we'll see. Also, maybe buff the reload rate slightly instead of fire interval? I don't think it needs to fire faster (especially not faster than the normal sniper-rifle, at least). Just my 2 cents on that, it wouldn't be a big deal.

I think airstrikes are fine right now, personally. Not too strong to be annoying, but are useful disruptions. What roles are we looking for for airstrikes, now, anyway?

And EMP with a small nerf (and no smoke, obviously, since we have smoke grenades now) are fine... as for their ability to disable mine, it just needs testing, so I'm leaving all that to the closed beta folks.

[RypeL]

Also, maybe buff the reload rate slightly instead of fire interval? I don't think it needs to fire faster (especially not faster than the normal sniper-rifle, at least).

No i dont mean faster firerate, i meant slower rate of fire.

About a new role of like EMP etc ... we will see. We are thinking of options but its too early to say that we are really considering this or that. But its likely that we will try something out on closed beta.

[Unit]

why do you deserve to push out of the base because one guy placed 1 airstrike.

Answer this question please.

All of these are anti-snowball anti-stomp mechanics.

team play is the game core design and anti-stomp anti-snowball mechanic, all those things you mentioned break the game.

So called good players at both Ren and RenX both agree with them because stomps r no funz.

Actual good players will organise other players into rushes and that creates snowballs or stomps, anyone you say claims that witnessing a great play made theirs or their opponents team is bad at renegade. if you get stomped you know what that gives you incentive to do? get better at the game, organise rushes before your enemy, or make rushes to counter a rush before they act on theirs, plan your nuke or ions for when rushes leave.

all of the weapons in the game do so much damage that fights last about 1/4 of the time they used to, there are no good tank battles anymore because all the projectiles move so quickly do so much damage and reload so much faster. and on top of that you want people to be throwing uncounterable damage quantifiers??? AND THEN infinite range anti tank sniper rifles.

why even buy vehicles when you can just buy havoc or sakura?

also its too late to claim its not a clone of the original, with the same maps same classes, same vehicles same everything. thats just something they may have said to try and respond to the insane balance decisions being made.

Renegade X is less of a clone and more of a doppelganger, something that seems so much like something you know but horrifically warped and distorted in places

also the only good player ive seen to maybe have beta tested this game at some point was HaTe.

Generally, most the people who played RenX when it started, left in beta 2, not in release.

Not true, when this game first came out, there was LOADS of people playing it, it was like a utopia of renegade player activity finally. im pretty sure 3 days after release renegade x had like 250,000 client downloads? at the start of the second week of release it was a complete ghost town, all the servers were dead.

together with unplayable Client bugs, swarms of hackers, and irredeemable balance decisions that defaced what people knew and loved about the original there was nobody left. even today 2 servers are all thats left of renegadeX. youd think the main goal at this point would be trying to get more people to play the game, the most efficient way of doing that would be to bring the game closer to the original to bring in people who did love the original so those people can invite people to the game.

Ive tried to bring people i knew, friends etc to play this game, but they just find it repulsive and unsaveable

Again, snipers, they are not in no way a do-all unit. They still anti-infantry. I still bet they contribute to anti-air. They also contribute to anti-armor.

they aren't a do all unit because they contribute to anti air, anti infantry and now anti tank, not to mention the duel timed c4 lets not forget anti building. seems pretty anti everything one size fits all.

Volt's have more dps than any of the other 1k so it has it's uses too, despite it has the most opportunity to be shot as it exploits it.

the volt rifle is rediculous and is again just one of the things i said earlier, fights last 1/4 of the time. volt does absolutely infuriating amounts of damage to everything again, why? there was nothing wrong with the original unit besides the price was too high, should have been like 750 for a mobius/mendoza. in renegade x they are easily worth 2000 credits ttk on tanks is just not fun from the tank perspective.

[RypeL]

"team play is the game core design and anti-stomp anti-snowball mechanic"

Simply speaking: If strangers play on pub servers there is no teamplay. Which is why there better be something else aswell.

People like you who have played, like you stated, one game for a very long period of time obviously like it and got used to it. I am old enough to have whitnessed it on multiple iterations of franchises that people give the new game shit just cause it wasent like the old game. That happens pretty much every time and everywhere a new game comes out. For example a lot of players that didnt play old ren are complaining that it actually takes too long to kill in Ren-X. Cause in almost every modern game people die from like 2 shots. So whos right here ? Neither.

As Ren never had that much players aswell and is very different in killtimes etc to other modern shooters making Ren-X just a copy of Ren would probably just be another path for Ren-X to death. ... however you look at it: its a complex situation. Just copying Ren or getting too far away from it, neither would be best. At the end what it comes down to is that the game needs to make fun. And im sure we have work left to do there. But as long as theres still people playing we probably wont give up trying. And dont forget that we are completly opening Ren-X to the modding community with Beta 4. There is nothing stopping the people that think we are on a totally wrong direction to steer Ren-X into another direction with modifications.

[Ap2000]

and when you have entire teams spamming airstrikes at the same location are you trying to tell me thats fun gameplay?

even 2 people doing an airstrike at the same location is the very opposite of fun for the recieving end. and there is no limit of how many airstrikes can be done. not only is the damage extremely not fun to recieve from an uncounterable force, in a lot of situations there isnt anywhere else to go. NOT ONLY THAT but the GDI airstrike is the most annoying collection of sounds in the whole world.

I've barely used airstrikes, since they mostly seem like a waste of money to me.

I can do a lot more damage usually with investing that money into a unit (unless I get one shot killed from a sniper haha). Increasing the laser's visibility/"deploy time" is an idea that can be discussed, but I don't see why they should do less damage etc.

But I do absolutely agree that the maximum sound for an airstrike is pretty extreme.

the economy is also so bad in this game that you never dont have thousands upon thousands of credits, so the airstrikes cost wouldnt even matter unless they costs upwards of 4000 credits a pop

I can not even begin to fathom after playing the original for SO LONG why any dev claiming to be recreating renegade would do that, it is beyond rediculous.

the game is being watered down completely and people are like "yea thats good, good job devs wowsers" fucking really now..... oh my god.

How many more people do you think would play this game if the devs would stop with the unbearably bad balance decisions and actually make the game closer to its roots? im not sure why you would set out to alienate the very people who were most likely going to want to play the game FIRST.

Bitch, please.

Nobody is claiming to "recreate" the original Renegade in a 1:1 manner. If you would have looked at the game more closely, you would have realized that there are many differences that go beyond the airstrike, that make RenX a quite different game.

I'd also strongly disagree with RenX being "watered down".

I don't think that Renegade has a bigger long-term audience than a few hundred players. And very certainly no balance change in any shape or form would change that.

You also don't seem to understand that we are actually talking about these changes right here, right now, precisely because the devs know the game is not finished yet and are still working on it with the few players the game has. Possibly it's just me, so don't take this as an offense, but... maybe you could direct your criticism into a more productive form instead of just shouting that it all sucks and "what the fuck are the devs even doing!?" kind of way?

[RoundShades]

why do you deserve to push out of the base because one guy placed 1 airstrike.

Answer this question please.

The devs specifically focus on many problems with original renegade. 3 major ones are:

-point whoring via shelling the fuck out of a base from base entrance with a wad of tanks ever-returning and ever repairing, which is easy as FUCK to maintain.

-ramjet 1 hitting basic infantry, which is sometimes a teams only infantry

-infantry also being very useless for the "objective" of the game i.e. threat to enemy structures.

Emp Nades make infantry threatening to vehicles, Smoke Nades make infantry threatening to infiltrate bases and structures from tunnels, all the infantry sprint buffs make infantry combat-powerful in tradeoff-ways to vehicles, and all of that makes anti-infantry practical to prevent infantry from winning against you. Vehicles are still effective because, let's face it, shelling a base or rushing a base with flames forces players to sit at a mct or lose a structure.

Ramjets getting a nerf to infantry make them not-1k-valuable, but letting them 1 hit kill basic infantry means a game with no hon/bar for 1 team makes the other team not kill the base but instead snipe for enemy door openings just to build a 20 to 1 k/d. The person with the 1 to 20 k/d will call the game garbage, nobody likes playing that way and nobody respects it as "a valid way to play". Giving it less light armor damage is just a buff to arty/mrls/air, and those arguably could use it. Giving it more damage against heavy armor gives it an edge to 500 snipers and is a familiar mechanic to other games (50 cals against killstreaks in CoD, not best example but real-life-practical and expected-behaviour from weapon). Giving it c4 means it and 1 other infantry can kill a structure rather than 3, which is arguably not the ramjets job but still adds value to the unit. Switching c4 for more ammo just shifts that c4 value to a job it does more often, except devs are planning to add more ammo drops so maybe not as necesary...

Anyway, the base siege thing happens a LOT on field still, and airstrikes haven't prevented it last update, they aren't being changed AFAIK, so theoretically they should be fine. They are in fact useful, they just dont single handedly stop field sieges. They HELP. And it is because that is an OP mechanic, sitting at enemy entrance and shelling with nice repairable armor. Buffing infantry to make tunnels a threatening flank mechanic or backdoor base-kill mechanic is viable, sitting in vehicles at enemy base leaves your tunnels thinner in defense. Adding airstrikes gives the defender the advantage, an advantage but not a free get out of jail free card.

Also, neat idea, like I mentioned in islands earlier, if you call an airstrike in front of the WF door leading to AGT, and then rush into the base and swarm the AGT and shell it, you can kill an AGT. The only negative part of that, is flames don't shell, and artys can't enter gdi base. You'd need lights backed up by a flamer or a stank or two.

[A-Rodge]

"team play is the game core design and anti-stomp anti-snowball mechanic"

Simply speaking: If strangers play on pub servers there is no teamplay. Which is why there better be something else aswell.

People like you who have played, like you stated, one game for a very long period of time obviously like it and got used to it. I am old enough to have whitnessed it on multiple iterations of franchises that people give the new game shit just cause it wasent like the old game. That happens pretty much every time and everywhere a new game comes out. For example a lot of players that didnt play old ren are complaining that it actually takes too long to kill in Ren-X. Cause in almost every modern game people die from like 2 shots. So whos right here ? Neither.

As Ren never had that much players aswell and is very different in killtimes etc to other modern shooters making Ren-X just a copy of Ren would probably just be another path for Ren-X to death. ... however you look at it: its a complex situation. Just copying Ren or getting too far away from it, neither would be best. At the end what it comes down to is that the game needs to make fun. And im sure we have work left to do there. But as long as theres still people playing we probably wont give up trying. And dont forget that we are completly opening Ren-X to the modding community with Beta 4. There is nothing stopping the people that think we are on a totally wrong direction to steer Ren-X into another direction with modifications.

It's probably just me, but I get worked up when people disrespect this whole project. Maybe they're just trying to get a rise out of others on the forums, but to completely disregard the extreme amount of effort put into this whole endeavor is beyond me and I think those who choose to talk smack should just stick to original Ren or migrate to another community that mirrors their maturity.

Nonetheless, Rype, you and the rest of the team handle it well. You bring up a lot of good points about the direction you want Renegade-X to go. I think it's important to listen to veteran ren players who want to keep its unique mechanics in place, but also give newer players their fair say. For example, a writer at PCGamer outlines good points with their critical analysis of why they don't like Renegade X as it stands; because that's speaking from outside the immediate community of frequent players. I feel as though that kind of feedback is incredibly valuable.

And you're right, there's a reason original renegade did not have a huge playerbase; there are a lot of awkward mechanics in renegade x today that most players overlook, but are glaring through the lense of a new player. I am glad you guys are trying to address them.

When Renegade X is ready for "release" or Steam or whatever medium of mainstream, I'm sure we'll have a game that both veteran and new players will enjoy. Keep it up.

EDIT: When I say "Talk Smack" or "disrespect" I don't mean constructive criticism, but much the opposite; when players on the forums draw from their instinctual fervor for the game and don't filter themselves to promote discussion

[Canucck]

With an auto-updater I assume you're going to try and pump out smaller updates more regularly? (ie 2-4wk small vs 2mo+ large)

[GatsuFox]

Have you guys ever considered having grenades in weapon slot 4 so infantry can flush out corner snipers without having to give up timed c4?

[Handepsilon]

Infantry with Grenade and C4? That kinda makes them more multipurpose to both infantry - building - vehicles, even just for one bit