Flamethrower Small Buff?

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Could the spread get widened?

This gun in original renegade was piss, the graphic did not match the projectile. The projectile was a line, so precise accuracy, all headshots were needed to down people quickly - because a real flamethrower should down people quickly.

Its kinda the same in Renegade X, but at least the graphic represents the small line that is the real projectile.

You would still think, just by looking at the flame, that more burning should be happening to people. Where the fuck's the damage man? I should feel like I'm torching some sucker's ass.

I guess the same could be said for the Chem weapon.

- - -

So its not a big deal - the weapon ain't horrendously under powered, but it could use some love.

[Noodlesocks]

It is horrendously under powered to be honest. I don't know what exactly is the source of its poor performance or if it's a combination of factors but it certainly needs a buff.

Chem sprayer performs better but for the cost of it, it's still fairly underpowered itself.

[Trev-MUN]

I was wondering about this, myself. The times I've attempted to play as a Flame Trooper, I never saw any appreciable damage done. I felt like I was just giving GDI free points by killing me.

It might be because I don't know how the flamethrower is supposed to work compared to other games that have a flamethrower (TF2's Pyro, the one in Return to Castle Wolfenstein, etc.) ... if it's a straight-line projectile that requires headshots to do any real damage, that's worrisome.

[super_gsx]

The flamethrower, chemthrower, and shotgun are all close-range weapons. At close ranges, they should be able to overpower basically every other weapon in the game.

[SFJake]

Shotgun and flamethrower are free, so I don't really agree. The shotgun is fine, though, really powerful already.

I've done testing of damage on GDI's side but not Nod yet (working on a damage chart). This got me interested in testing the flamethrower. (on a side note, the shotgun does no additional damage when you hit the head, so I wonder if the same is true for flamethrowers, knowing that is important)

[Trev-MUN]

The free classes should at least have some worth, especially relevant to each other. My experience with the Flame Trooper has been in close quarters against of mix of infantry, both the characters/advanced classes and the general free classes.

I never did anything of worth as a Flame Trooper.

[Letty]

Flamethrower and Chemthrower actually have very nice range. It's like 75-100 feet. AFAIK Chem thrower performs exactly the same as a double damage Flamethrower.

Chem thrower is pretty good for the price and performs well against buildings, tanks, and infantry. Seriously, if you roll Field on the map vote and can get the majority of your team to go Chem trooper through the tunnels the GDI base will be dead before the people who went to the silo/harvester know what hit them.

Flamethrower is... ehh. A small buff to their damage probably wouldn't be out of line. As it is Chem trooper is so much better and barely costs you anything. Upgrading from flame to chem gives you 25% more health and 2x damage, meaning an approximate combat performance improvement of 150% for only $150. No other class upgrade comes close to that efficiency.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Guest

[Noodlesocks]

Shotgun and flamethrower are free, so I don't really agree. The shotgun is fine, though, really powerful already.

I've done testing of damage on GDI's side but not Nod yet (working on a damage chart). This got me interested in testing the flamethrower. (on a side note, the shotgun does no additional damage when you hit the head, so I wonder if the same is true for flamethrowers, knowing that is important)

Yes its free. As is the rifle, the shotgun, the grenade launcher, the pistol and the sub machine gun. They all outperform the flamethrower to a very large degree.

[Letty]

Shotgun and flamethrower are free, so I don't really agree. The shotgun is fine, though, really powerful already.

I've done testing of damage on GDI's side but not Nod yet (working on a damage chart). This got me interested in testing the flamethrower. (on a side note, the shotgun does no additional damage when you hit the head, so I wonder if the same is true for flamethrowers, knowing that is important)

Yes its free. As is the rifle, the shotgun, the grenade launcher, the pistol and the sub machine gun. They all outperform the flamethrower to a very large degree.

The Flamethrower actually has almost the exact same DPS against vehicles as the grenade launcher. It just sucks hard against infantry while the grenade launcher has way too much splash and destroys infantry. But in a purely anti-vehicle role it isn't bad.

[SFJake]

Yes its free. As is the rifle, the shotgun, the grenade launcher, the pistol and the sub machine gun. They all outperform the flamethrower to a very large degree.

I was just trying to say just because its a close range weapon, doesn't mean it should beat everything, not that it didn't need a buff.

[Lt.Hargrove]

I think that flamethrower needs more splash or possibly making it more bursty - more dps, smaller mag. The first one would allow to actually hit people (your own flame obstructs your target and the guy is probably jumping around in circles to dodge), the second one would be better at close range and when there are multiple flame troopers.

[Raker57]

Don't forget the Chem Trooper is immune to tiberium poisoning. I originally felt the Chem was WAY underpowered compared to McFarland, but now I'm not so sure. I can usually kill GDI's harvester in the beginning of the match by sitting in the tiberium field and using the harvester as cover.

As for the flamethrower, I agree it needs a buff, but I think rather than a damage buff it should just cause damage like a flamethrower should instead of in a straight line. You shouldn't be able to get headshots with a flamethrower, that doesn't make sense.

[Raker57]

Another thing: The flame obstructs your target so you can't see their head. Another reason the projectile shouldn't damage in a straight line.

[Soldieroffate]

The flamethrower was absolute garbage in the old game with its deceptive hitbox and rather low damage output.

The chemsprayer is powerful for what it's worth, especially in tunnel combat but I've never seen any practical use for the flamethrower unless you can't afford the chem trooper.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Yah thats all about right. Fucking lines dished out right on the table, but they sting and don't get you FUCKED? Must be cut with baby powder, or powdered milk or something.

The flamethrower and the chem warrior where never implemented in perfect awesome form in most C&C games.

I always envisioned the flamethrower pretty much as it was in C&C1. However, instead of blasting one big burst then waiting a sec or .5 to blast another one off - it should fire a constant blasting stream for a long time, until the fuel tank finally empties. The area would get scorched, shit would get on fire, etc.

Now the chemical sprayer, it was never implemented as cool as I'd like it.

- The chemsprayer sprays a blast of lethal to all materials tiberium gaseous liquid sludge. The Sludge burns, disintegrates and decomposes, fucks with any soldier incredibly fast, so the instance it makes contact with yourself your skin starts melting very fast, horrible pain wracks your nervous system - it is a terror weapon even worse than the flamethrower.SKin and metal alike DIE. Then the gas clouds of tiberium spreads with the wind and contaminates large areas, so any soldier without a gas mask will choke on it and slowly die too!

**

But no. The flamethrower and chemsprayer emit some fancy graphics but has a minuscule projectile line which actually inflicts the damage, more so on the head, like all things.

Yes, I don't think the Unreal Engine can emulate my specifics - I don't know of any engine that can completely represent these two insanely cool concepts of weapons properly.

So just buff the damage for the flamethrower a little, and widen the projectile lines for chem and flame, make it a MUCH thicker line please.

Do you guys think this is cool? You know, give these weapons some more shock and awe. Its a fucking flamethrower and a god damn acid gun! Thats sick!

So why do they suck asshole? I am very confused.

[OfficerMeatbeef]

The flamethrower should probably be more effective than any of the free weapons (except the shotgun) at killing infantry at close range. But it should definitely be more effective at killing vehicles/buildings in its range than any of the other free Nod weapons.

I think it's kinda close to where it should be, but a small buff does feel in order. I don't know if more damage is necessary, just some more area of effect might be right so it plays a role as a weapon where you don't do as much damage at close range as a shotgun per shot, but makes up for that in you not having to be as accurate.

Basically, a shottie should always outplay a flamethrower given sufficient aiming skill, but otherwise a flamer will win out in consistent damage output and ease of keeping effectively on target/denying advance. This sounds about right to me.

But no. The flamethrower and chemsprayer emit some fancy graphics but has a minuscule projectile line which actually inflicts the damage, more so on the head, like all things.

Yes, I don't think the Unreal Engine can emulate my specifics - I don't know of any engine that can completely represent these two insanely cool concepts of weapons properly.

I pretty much agree with you, but we can't forget that the flamethrower is still a freebie weapon, while the Chem Thrower is the cheapest possible credit-costing unit. They can't be too amazing.

If you want to see a fantastic flamethrower, you should check out Rising Storm: the Marines get the best-realized flamethrower I've ever seen in a game. It's spectacular and terrifying, but balanced by the fact that there can only be one or two per team, which obviously doesn't work in this case. It's Unreal Engine, also!

Do you guys think this is cool? You know, give these weapons some more shock and awe. Its a fucking flamethrower and a god damn acid gun! Thats sick!

Well, the chem thrower does turn people

...

[SFJake]

I don't think the flamethrower's damage is off, only its hitbox. Against vehicles it seemed fine, it even has surprising range. Its just the grenadier thats quite powerful. (probably too much)

Also, the flamethrower has "splash damage", I can't say the same for the chem. If you fire barely next to someone, it seems like it can hit and deal less damage (something I vaguely noticed in my damage testing).

The ideal way to make a flamethrower is just that, for it to be mostly splash-damage centered around the flames, and I'm pretty sure its how its done, its radius is probably just very small however.

[OfficerMeatbeef]

I don't think the flamethrower's damage is off, only its hitbox. Against vehicles it seemed fine, it even has surprising range. Its just the grenadier thats quite powerful. (probably too much)

Also, the flamethrower has "splash damage", I can't say the same for the chem. If you fire barely next to someone, it seems like it can hit and deal less damage (something I vaguely noticed in my damage testing)..

Agreed fully. Bump up the radius of effect of the flame, maybe make it so that radius persists for just a liiiiiiittle longer at point of impact (to create the "wall of flame" effect) so that it is simplest to consistently hit with (again, only at close range) and I bet the flamer will be fine. The shottie will still beat it at the same range, as long as you are able to aim more accurately than the person firing the flame.

[sdsz11111]

It seems the flame weapons no longer counter infantry in RenX. Flamethrower is now a close-range anti-vehicle weapon, instead of anti-infantry weapon...

But comparing to grenadier, it still so much under-powered.

[RoundShades]

It is a shotgun that does actual damage to armor. Right now, the shotgun does 10 damage to heavy armor, 40 to light armor, I think, and it does it only at short range if all hit.

The flamethrower also arcs. Chem sprayer not so sure, just disperses. Either one has a bit of spread that gets "more damage" at closer range since less of the spread misses a la shotgun style. They just do less damage than shotgun, I think less damage on headshot in fact (by glitch), but are capable of structure and heavy armor damage.

So, only get them if you need a free class capable of front door repelling heavy armor. Like attacking mammy tanks at front door of Field base. Or med tanks rolling through the front of walls flying. I believe you can even spray from top of plateau on walls flying, meaning you can get some vehicle/harvester damage from the ramp above.

Again, also remember flamethrower arcs, you can see that in the flame animation, on the gun not the flametank, so with the infantry flamer, aim a bit high at extreme long ranges to land more bodyshot damage. Generally, they aren't highly strong, grenadier got a massive buff in RenX while flamethrower got a moderate buff, but thats balance for you, either way I like it a lot better thus far.

[Khawz]

Flamethrower tickles

Yeah needs a buff i never lose 1v1 against it

[Unit]

a units firepower should be proportionate to the cost of the base unit. that is all.

• shotgun should be a powerful weapon, but needs less range and spread than it does now, original ren shotgun had half the range the current one does it seems.
  
• chemsprayer is so overpowered it simply isnt funny, needs a massive nerf, or the unit itself a massive increase in price
  
• flamethrower is better than it was in the original game, but isnt overpowered, its fine as it is.
  
• tiberium auto rifle, again so overpowered its beyond a joke, and the cause of much all chat rage in Jelly servers. that gun should cost 1000+ at its current stats.
  
• The grenadier needs a slight nerf towards infantry.
  
• Throwable hand grenades need completely removing.
  
• The standard machineguns need their ROF decreasing and damage per shot increasing because id rather fire dozens of bullets, than thousands of bb's.
  
• Mcfarland needs to hang himself out of the game entirely.
  
• Both rocket lawn chairs are fine (including gunner) though could use less vs infantry damage.
  
• sniper rifles are fine.
  
• Pic and Railgun need 1 bullet per clip and original ren reload times.
  
• Purchasable weapons need removing completely and replaced with weapon drops

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Yeah... your gonna need a complete explanation for every single point you just posted there, why you THINK those changes should be made.

Could you at least fully explain why you THINK the Flamethrower is fine as is?

I think its not, but I explained why, and it makes sense a small buff may be in order for it.

I'd like a dev to respond to my OP.

[iovandrake]

Unit most of your suggestions basically seem to boil down to "It's different and change scares me". The PIC and Railgun one in particular is just stupid and if it isn't then you need to explain why it isn't good now. Explain it without basing it merely on the fact that it is different.

I'll personally agree that McFarland is OP as hell right now, but saying he needs to go completely just seems like more of the "it's different change it back" bs.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Bump.

So hows all yer thinkinz towards the Flamethrower soldier? Does it suck, or do I suck at aiming?

I haven't played as him much, because more tanks are always needed at the front lines! HOLD THE LINE! MAINTAIN FIELD CONTROL.

But so far, I have been underwhelmed by the Flamethrower soldier's weapon. What are your thoughts?.

[iovandrake]

I think if it doesn't get a buff it should get an alt fire mode like the grenadier.

-Shorter Range Alt Fire Mode-

1: Maybe a mode that spreads the damage out into a wide cone

2: Or a mode that sets the floor and walls (where it hits) on fire and creates a fire damage zone for anything that runs through it. It would last only briefly.

3: Or a mode that fires out a mass of fire in a slow blast that does a concentrated amount of fire.

A flamethrower would have an adjustable nozzle in real life. Maybe not as versatile, but we are talking a more focused technological avenue. I mean Nod has stealth technology. Advancing flamethrower technology is something Nod was shown to pursue in the sequels.

I think this (while more complicated than a simple buff) would be more interesting. Plus the blast suggestion (#3) is more true to TD's flamethrower. Finally there is the grenadier's two fire modes to consider. It isn't exactly fare to Nod's equivalent to be so limited. The grenade's two fire modes make it versatile. It can cause direct explosive to enemies (and isn't hard to aim) or it can be used to lay explosive mines (basically) for a few seconds (not to mention those seconds even if failing to hit anyone with the grenade would still give them pause to move through that area while they remain). Currently the flamethrower is a W + M1 weapon that doesn't have the damage to make up for its limitations.