Two suggestions regarding veterancy

[Fishyshoe]

Good evening everyone!

First time I ever post here (not first time reading posts here, though).

I apologize in advance for the long post. 

Yesterday, two ideas came to me regarding veterancy which might be worth considering. One of them, in my humble opinion, should be very easy to implement and would change nothing whats-o-ever when it comes to game balance. The second idea is up for debate.

First idea:

We are all familiar with the veterancy progression bar at the bottom-left part of the screen. We all look at it from time to time, trying to estimate how much more VP we need until we get promoted. I was thinking - why not have an actual VP-counter right under or next to it?

For example - assuming you're Veteran, and you'd like to know how much more VP you need for promotion to Elite (which if I'm not mistaken requires 200 VP from the moment you're promoted to Veteran) - the counter should simply show "25/200", meaning you already got 25 VP, and you need 175 more before you are promoted. Of course, once it happens, the counter is reset to "0/350" for the Heroic class, and stays "350/350" once you reach it.

I think it could be very nice, and would save us the trouble of trying to estimate how much more kills (or VP) we need till being promoted.

*The idea came to me last night when a player - Shpetim (to whom I refer to as "Shpets") - said in-game "I'm like 1 kill away from Heroic". Felt obliged to state this.

Second idea:

This one is a bit more tricky, and might be irrelevant if I misunderstand some of the VP mechanics. If I'm not wrong, when a new player joins a match, he/she is awarded this-or-that amount of VP (and ranks, accordingly), so that no-one would start as a recruit if a game is being played for a long time. I don't know how the amount of awarded VP is calculated. 

For the sake of this idea, consider the following scenario:

Suppose a player is present in a match from its very beginning, and all he/she does is defending his/her base (patrolling, mining, afk-repairing, or shelling the tunnels with arty/mrls like many of us do in maps like Field, etc.), but not getting too many points for kills/damage/repairs etc. In other words, his/her advancement to the next rank is very slow compared to players fighting/repairing at the front-lines, and the only points he/she gets is due to now-and-then events such as someone stepping on their mines, enemy building destruction, harvester destruction, etc. 

Now, the match is lasting for quite a long time (say, 45 minutes or more), and a new player joins. This is the part where I might be entirely wrong and this discussion is irrelevant: Is it possible that the new player will now be awarded more VP than the aforementioned defending player? because if this is the case, I feel it is a bit unfair towards the defending player, who is doing quite an important job.

I'm not saying not to give VP to newly-joined players, but I do think they should not out-rank players who have been in the match from it's beginning...

What do I actually suggest? Well, again, I do not understand how the entire VP mechanism works, but I think that VP should be added to EVERY PLAYER gradually over time, albeit slowly, no matter what he/she is doing in-game, so that even players who don't directly fight or support the front-lines - will have their VP progress slowly just because they are present. 

That way, say a new player joins the match after 45 minutes game time, they'll get VP equal to the amount all players got by that mechanism alone, not including bonus VP for building/harvester destruction, etc. This will ensure no unfair advantage to new players over "old" ones present from the beginning. the latter players will have the same VP amount as the newly joined player, plus all the bonuses acquired during the match (and obviously their own acquired VP).

For example:

Say that every 1 minute, 5 VP are awarded to all players present, again regardless of what they actually do. This means that after 45 minutes, all players present from the start will have 225 VP (in addition to team bonuses and personally-gained VP). Now, at the 45 minutes mark, a new player joins the game - he/she immediately gets the very same 225 VP. They do not outrank any other player, because they are not awarded all the VP from team bonuses. That is, in my opinion, much fairer towards those who participated from the start.

One more important thing - you may (and should!) limit the amount of VP which can be awarded by this method ("Timed VP") to, say, 300 - so the maximum one can get by simply waiting long enough is 300 VP, or in other words, be promoted to Elite, and not a single VP more than that (I am aware that even today, the highest rank a player can be awarded right when joining a game is Elite). Any present player who reaches Elite before time does it for him/her - will no longer receive VP every minute. Meaning - anyone who wants to be Heroic - MUST earn the required 350 VP by gaining them either personally or by team bonuses.

I gave the 5VP/1min as an example only, of course you could decide on different numbers. Though if you think about it - 5VP every minute means the match has to last 60 minutes before everyone is Elite. Make it 3 VP per minute, and you'd have to "wait" 1 hour and 40 minutes (super-later game) before you're Elite for doing nothing or joining the game at this point. 

Again, the goal of my suggestion is to eliminate possible unfair advantage of newly joined players over those who were there from the start. 

Sorry again for the long post. 

-Tom (A.K.A. Fishyshoe) 

[Gex_str]

When a new player joins the match he is awarded by an arithmetical mean of all teammates' VP, this number caps at Elite Veterancy. As for stuff that gives VP:

//Positive

    //Infantry and Vehicle 
    Mod_BeaconAttack = +1
    Mod_BeaconDefense = +2

    //Infantry
    Mod_BeaconHolderKill = +5
    Mod_Headshot = +2 
    Mod_SniperKill = +1 
    Mod_SniperKilled = +3
    Mod_Disadvantage = +2 //Multiplied by the VRank difference
    Mod_AssaultKill = +5
    Mod_MineKill = +1
    
    //Vehicle
    Mod_Ground2Air = +2

    //Negative
    Mod_DefenseKill = -3

    Mod_UnfairAdvantage = -2 //Per VRank level above the target

    //Events 
    Ev_GoodBeaconLaid = +2
    Ev_BuildingRepair = +1 
    Ev_PawnRepair = +2 
    Ev_VehicleRepair = +2 //Same bonus as infantry, but slightly slower to achieve
    Ev_VehicleSteal = +10
    Ev_C4Disarmed = +1
    Ev_BeaconDisarmed = +5
    Ev_VehicleRepairAssist = +4
    Ev_InfantryRepairKillAssists = +2
    Ev_CaptureTechBuilding = +5 
    Ev_VehicleEMP = +2; 
    Ev_VehiclesDamaged = +1

    //Team-Wide Bonuses
    Ev_BuildingDestroyed = +20 //Modified in Rx_Game based on number of buildings destroyed
    Ev_BuildingArmorBreak = +15
    Ev_HarvesterDestroyed = +8

[Fishyshoe]

Still, this doesn't prevent what I say. Those who join later on can get more VP than players who were already playing for long time, which to me seems unfair.

BTW, right after posting my original post, I joined a game which lasted apprx. 30 minutes - and was given about 90 VP (estimated! if my first idea would be implemented, next time I could know just how much ). Literally two minutes passed, another player joined, and he was Veteran already, without doing anything, while I had to spend a few minutes to get it.

This just proves the problem I'm trying to solve. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Fishyshoe

[Handepsilon]

Why do you want to have defending players have further disadvantage by giving them lower VP than anybody else.  It's time to realize that this game is about team achievement, not individual achievement

[yosh56]

5 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

Why do you want to have defending players have further disadvantage by giving them lower VP than anybody else.  It's time to realize that this game is about team achievement, not individual achievement

In general, this is why new-joiners are given the average of players on their team. If you're defending, you're kind of just expected to have lower veterancy than offensive players. Veterancy has always been about aggression. 

[kira]

Repairing if i am not mistake, also gives VP , 
also if you shelling tunnels with arty or mrls and the enemy team team tries to sneak in , there is also reward of VP.

would be though nice to test your idea as a mutator to see how it goes for the balance in favor of the new players\defenders.

Edited October 16, 2019 by kira

[Fishyshoe]

11 hours ago, Handepsilon said:

Why do you want to have defending players have further disadvantage by giving them lower VP than anybody else.  It's time to realize that this game is about team achievement, not individual achievement

No offence, but I think you completely misunderstood me.

I'm saying the EXACT OPPOSITE.

I want defending players to have MORE advantage, MORE VP, in order to avoid them having less VP than a player joining at a later time. I don't think it's fair that a given player is defending, gaining this or that amount of VP, and then a new player joins, and immediately outranks him.

 

I also agree with Yosh - of course offensive players should have more VP. Defending is far easier than attacking. That's a bit besides the point I'm trying to make.

5 hours ago, kira said:

Repairing if i am not mistake, also gives VP , 
also if you shelling tunnels with arty or mrls and the enemy team team tries to sneak in , there is also reward of VP.

would be though nice to test your idea as a mutator to see how it goes for the balance in favor of the new players\defenders.

Of course you're right. And I don't think that should be changed at all.

But imagine yourself sitting in your base, shelling the tunnels and being given some VP from time to time when the other team tries to rush them (you are not awarded VP just for shooting the tunnel walls), and then, after some time, a new player joins and immediately outranks you. For what?? just for joining at the "right time", after you have "sacrificed" yourself to base defence (let's face it, shelling tunnels is not nearly as fun as being offensive), and thanks to you the other team thinks twice or thrice before rushing, because they know they will likely fail? After all this, some fresh fish () joins the game and has more VP than you? That's not fair to you. THAT is the point.

I hope I made myself clear.

P.S. What about the first idea?

[crazfulla]

I have also wondered why I end up joining a game with veteran or elite status despite having done absolutely nothing to earn it. Feels cheaty to me. 

[NodSaibot]

21 minutes ago, crazfulla said:

I have also wondered why I end up joining a game with veteran or elite status despite having done absolutely nothing to earn it. Feels cheaty to me. 

Enjoy some fights as recruit versus elite/heroic and you'll see why this is a thing. It just makes sense to give people an average VP for the team, so they aren't completely useless upon joining.

[crazfulla]

36 minutes ago, buttons said:

Enjoy some fights as recruit versus elite/heroic and you'll see why this is a thing. It just makes sense to give people an average VP for the team, so they aren't completely useless upon joining.

It happens regardless, mostly to players on defence. And therein lies the problem for OP I suspect. Couple of vet hotties won't stop an elite/heroic doza rush, say on the GDI PP on Under.

[yosh56]

24 minutes ago, crazfulla said:

It happens regardless, mostly to players on defence. And therein lies the problem for OP I suspect. Couple of vet hotties won't stop an elite/heroic doza rush, say on the GDI PP on Under.

To be fair... a couple of heroic hottie wont stop a recruit dozas rush....

[crazfulla]

18 hours ago, yosh56 said:

To be fair... a couple of heroic hottie wont stop a recruit dozas rush....

One repairing, one in a MRLS shelling tunel entrance? Guess it depends how many dozas.

 

Also there is this thing called CQC 

Edited October 17, 2019 by crazfulla

[Fishyshoe]

10 hours ago, crazfulla said:

I have also wondered why I end up joining a game with veteran or elite status despite having done absolutely nothing to earn it. Feels cheaty to me. 

That part is completely fine with me. I agree with Button's answer to you. The problem is not that, IMHO.

I'm all in for joining players to get some VP to make them more relevant to the current state of the match they joined, I just don't think this VP amount should exceed the amount of VP the least-veteran existing player has.

What I basicslly suggest is that the amount of VP given to each new player would be *determined by how long the match has been running*, say, give 3 or 5 points for every 1 minute the match was played up to that point, up to 300 VP (Elite rank, which is 140 minutes or 60 minutes game time, respectively), INSTEAD of being determined by any kind of average of your teammates' VP or team achievements such as kills, vehicles destoryed etc. Doesn't that mean that two players can join right at the same time, one to each team, and one of them will receive a lot more VP over the other player, just because he joined the better-performing team? That also seems unfair.

And, again, to ensure no new players outrank existing players - all players should get the same 3 VP for every minute they play, in addition to their personal and team progression.

Once a player becomes Elite, no more game-time-based VP for him/her anymore.

[Guest once upon the time]

The complete veteran system (VP) actually only causes a negative shift in the game balance. The only thing for it is that some players feel "better" without noticing that it has a negative impact on the balance.
It may be that one does not "just" in the ranks comes up, but the shift of the game balance takes place anyway.
If this system did not exist, the balance would be back to normal, but I already hear the outcry of the crowd and some devs.
In my opinion, this system is completely unnecessary.
From me you can now get out the torches and pitchforks and chase me through the village.

[Fishyshoe]

17 minutes ago, SilentKnight said:

The complete veteran system (VP) actually only causes a negative shift in the game balance. The only thing for it is that some players feel "better" without noticing that it has a negative impact on the balance.
It may be that one does not "just" in the ranks comes up, but the shift of the game balance takes place anyway.
If this system did not exist, the balance would be back to normal, but I already hear the outcry of the crowd and some devs.
In my opinion, this system is completely unnecessary.
From me you can now get out the torches and pitchforks and chase me through the village.

LOL...Don't worry, I lost my putchfork and torche somewhere. J.K., Irespect your opinion.

To be honest, if the VP system was cancelled completely - since it didn't exist in OldRen - I wouldn't mind much either. but since it does exist, I'm trying to improve it. Personally, unlike you, I think it DOES make a difference, especially once you reach Elite and of course Heroic. but that could be just me.