More mines for Nod on flying maps ?

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[TheOlsenTwins]

Yeah, playing nod on flying maps, especially with only 3 buildings sucks hard...

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Gamma]

I hate HoN on flying maps! it takes about 10 mines to mine HoN with stairs properly. Because of this we have to put fewer mines to the other doors and they lose effectiveness.

[boxes]

15 in HoN, 3 in strip, 6 in PP, 6 in Ref

vs 

6 in Bar, 6 in PP, 6 in Ref, 3 shared between PP and Ref Stairs, 9 WF

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[boxes]

for the airstrip you need to mine closer to the mct so it covers both the tower and the front door, 3 mines is enough for this

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[yosh56]

...GDI has always had 'better' infiltration options than Nod to compensate for not having stealth. They still have to clear mines no matter where they go [which makes their infiltration obvious] to actually destroy a building from the inside, just like Nod. The strip really takes a 1/3rd of a second of common sense after knowing people can come through the roof to mine properly.

 

Simple balance since 2002 : 

GDI : More players have to stay on defense vs. stealth (sans BD maps), thereby making it harder for GDI to have as large of a field presence [in quantity].  

vs. 

Nod: Can leave defense to less players which leaves them able to have a higher quantity of people in the field, thereby balancing out that they don't have Meds, meds and more meds. 

That's only in a perfect world when you boil it down though. Still it works for 'most' maps... till you make a 128 player server. 

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Madkill40]

One Nod SBH can guard a Nod base very easily because them infiltrators don't know they're being watched.

GDI was clever by not having destructible windows.

All I'm seeing is not enough active defenders.

 

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Madkill40]

3 hours ago, dr.schrott said:

If it would be that simple, than there wouldn be a problem. If it is about defenders, than make the same disadvantage at GDI side, just to test the theory,   .

Try being a base defender instead of being on the offensive. 

The issue ain't mines, it's defenders, I've sneaked into the Nod base plenty of times on a whim and destroyed a building simply because nobody was watching. 

Players are aware how vulnerable the Hand of Nod can be on a flying map yet actively defending the base isn't an option..? [in particular focusing on that building and just watching the mines for other buildings] Even if numbers are low, that actually makes it easier to defend, but it is more tedious.

Nod vehicles are their weakness, GDI's infantry are their weakness (comparatively to their own faction), hence why the Strip and Bar have one way out and why both buildings are cramped. So long as a team has defenders then a base can stand the test of a marathon. 

Notice nobody is defending the base? Well shit, guess its down to you to defend and maybe encourage some of your team to stand by you.

[yosh56]

7 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

One Nod SBH can guard a Nod base very easily because them infiltrators don't know they're being watched.

GDI was clever by not having destructible windows.

All I'm seeing is not enough active defenders.

 

No seriously.... one SBH camping is the most rage-inducing defense mechanism in the entire game.. especially since SBH's can more or less insta-kill a Hotwire with the SSMG. Nod Defense is EZ

[RoundShades]

The only way the HoN has 9 entries, is if the player gets on the roof. If Nod lets a transport get to the roof, then it's more or less their own problem.

Furthermore, if 1 building is destroyed, the mines can go to mine the HoN MCT inside ramp (mining the windows is useless, just mine a line from window across ramp to window). If there were a mine limit to mine it, just +2, then those mines get out of hand when something is killed, the HoN becomes unbearable if something else dies giving it more mines, and if the HoN dies, everything gets 5 mines an entrance.

Lastly, the airstrip is not easy access MCT from the roof, if you do NOT mine the door and mine the MCT-floor instead. The roof, takes you to the same mines, as the door takes you. The mine limit tips off Nod if there's a problem, and they check air to find the infiltrator, kill them, and diffuse the c4.

Also, I lied about lastly, but SBH are highly underrated. 2 of them, planting c4 on the outside of the Ref or PP (or even WF on opportunity), and then dumping laser fire onto the MCT for the next 2 seconds, can guarantee armor annihilation, after 2, 3, and 4 tries, eventually whittle it down to 0. Getting 20 damage to structure health as 2 sbh from damage outside the doorway, each try, is not difficult at all. Now, 1 GDI Hotwire can get a building kill, only if they evade mines and a watchful team, but SBH are invisible and 5 SBH can endanger a structure much worse than 5 hotwire can (and can get to said structure much more assuredly).

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Fffreak9999]

(IP: 95.90.217.96) ·  · 

25 minutes ago, dr.schrott said:

 

  Hide contents

2 of them, planting c4 on the outside of the Ref or PP (or even WF on opportunity), and then dumping laser fire onto the MCT

This assumption includes that SBH have already entered the building, this means they have disarmed the mines, which would be noticed!

That is not what is being said. Timed C4 on the external part of the building, and walking to the door to open it and fire at the MCT is what they are stating. It does not require entry into the building.

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Plotting Raccoon]

On Friday, October 07, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Madkill40 said:

One Nod SBH can guard a Nod base very easily because them infiltrators don't know they're being watched.

GDI was clever by not having destructible windows.

All I'm seeing is not enough active defenders.

That's a stretch on almost every map outside select situations.

[Boomer]

4 hours ago, dr.schrott said:

2.) in flying maps - Nod gets Apaches, GDI gets Orcas - from balance perspective, no issue.

No! Apaches are way better than Orcas in each and every game I played. GDI has such a big disadvantage so it is fair that Nod has more base entrances.

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[boxes]

Missile payloads do the same damage. Apaches and orcas are different by:

-Maneuverability, orcas are better for crushing

-Machine Gun, orcas require more aim

-Size, apaches are thinner

-Speed, apaches are faster through veterancy

 

Keep in mind that GDI needs to mine ramps to prevent SBH nukes while Nod doesn't need to. 

[sterps]

So going by your logic, GDI should have more wins on maps where buildings have ramps, than Nod? 

I'd be curious to see the win/loss ratio of GDI and Nod for each map... My hunch you would see more wins to Nod

[Madkill40]

On 10/8/2016 at 0:21 PM, dr.schrott said:

Nod is forced to mine the buildings in a "best way it can" in flying maps. There is no mining solution which can prevent  GDI to enter at least ONE building SILENTLY - without triggering any mines and without being noticed. Nod cannot do this, not even with its stealth technology.

So, is this OK as one of the advantages for GDI to balance the Nod's SBH technology. In this case, I think it is not OK.

You think it is not okay because you want to be a lonely SBH and destroy a base all by yourself?

Or you think it is not okay because you find it too difficult to spot a GDI infantry infiltrating the Nod base on your watch?

You realise that no matter where the mines are eventually there won't be anyone actively defending and a hotty/techie will disarm the mines and again nobody will notice that either... Regardless of the amount.

But go ahead, keeping telling us how the mines are the problem.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Madkill40

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Madkill40]

And then when the Hand of Nod is destroyed because hippity-hoppity-Hotwire disarms them because nobody was actively defending, where will all those excess mines go? And is that balanced?  Or are we about to go into Air Tower territory? 

 

[sterps]

I feel like this is one of those distinct traits of the faction. 

You're saying that because you have to use more Mines on the HoN on flying maps, it is not balanced. This is similar to saying Nod having stealth units is an unfair advantage considering the amount of things you're able to do with them, and GDI cannot.

 

What solution would you propose? 

If you were to make the windows solid this would prevent this situation, however the windows would no longer be useable as an entrance/exit for the Nod team, you would no longer be able to defend from inside the HoN and have access to quick refills (eg GDI tanks assaulting the base and a handful of raveshaws and LCGs could no longer shoot at them from inside), ions placed on top of the HoN would become harder to defend against, as the Nod team would no longer be able to access the ramps via the windows, and in effect, you would have a similar situation as GDI have when defending the weapons factory, damaged Sam sites on top of the HoN would again take more time to attend to for repairs.

 

**Edit**

Just thought of another one, friendly units would not be able to fire inside the HoN if it has been infiltrated (eg hottie is inside, Apache or artillery could no longer attempt to kill the player).

Are you saying you would be ok with this?

Doesn't actually sound too bad, but it would probably hinder Nod more than assist

Edited October 10, 2016 by sterps

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Madkill40]

You're right! It's not about stealth, it's about having a decent defender in the base.

You can feel so at ease being on Nod that you can lose a building so easily on all maps, but hey lets just disregard the one imbalance to your 'balance'.

[vandal33]

What's imbalance is both teams have different mine limits. I'm surprised no one complained how the airstrip only need 3 mines on all maps.

[sterps]

My intention is not to bring stealth into this, I'm merely using it as a counter to your argument, applying the same logic as you are.

When it comes down to it, the bread and butter of your post is, you're saying because of the ramps on the HoN, you need more mines to protect it from infiltration. 

I still don't see the problem with this given they can cover all entrances within the mine limit.

GDI have a hard enough time infiltrating as it is, which shouldn't be made more difficult because Nod players don't want to defend properly.

 

 

 

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Henk]

I agree the HoN becomes a nightmare to mine on flying maps. But I don't think more mines is the answer, I'll make some sort of a design document with mockups for the laserdoor system me and some others had in mind some time ago. Maybe i'll even try to make something in Kismet but I don't have a lot of time for it lately.

[Madkill40]

15 hours ago, vandal33 said:

What's imbalance is both teams have different mine limits. I'm surprised no one complained how the airstrip only need 3 mines on all maps.

And GDI if you consider the Barracks. 

No more "3 mines!?", or such imbalance

Edited October 11, 2016 by Madkill40

[boxes]

11 hours ago, dr.schrott said:

You cannot protect airstrip with only 3 mines properly without allowing GDI to enter the building without being detected !

[RoundShades]

On 10/8/2016 at 6:21 AM, dr.schrott said:

  Hide contents

The only way the HoN has 9 entries, is if the player gets on the roof. If Nod lets a transport get to the roof, then it's more or less their own problem.

That not true, you can climb the stairs and enter any window you want. You dont need to fly into the base and get on the roof !!!

No, there are spare mines, and those mines can cover only the ramps, if not every single window. Makes the ramps useless, you still have access to any and all windows... if you get to the roof without use of the ramps.

Pretty much like Nod can do, planting beacons in plain sniper cover, on GDI WF/Bar.

I haven't seen much HoN deaths from unnoticed infiltration where mine limit were not triggered, at all. They were all from "engi's pouring in from the roof", mines being disarmed and most often from backdoor than ramp, or from other buildings entirely (air is much harder to notice infiltration, but still cannot be done without triggering mine limit, which invokes an alert). I seen air, ref, and pp, die more frequently from infiltration, because they are usually more auxiliary and distant structures, followed by HoN, only ahead of the Obby. Hard to infiltrate a little square room with no room to close the door, unnoticed.

[Fujiwara Chika]

The problem, indeed, lies with the quality of defenders on a team, not the mines when it comes to sneakers. I am confident that if someone gives the time to routinely check mines and buildings or just outright camp, the situation would go well most of the time. However, due to being a camper, I do know how arduous that line of duty is and is honestly quite boring. Sure, mines might be detracted from strip to properly mine the HON, however, in doing so, the HON should be well-defended. The problem in this case WOULD be the strip if it wasn't such an easy building to defend due to its small size. Lone sneakers aren't as much of a problem as you would think. In this situation, the main problem would be an organized strike of flyers and droppers.

Now this is where the lack of mines truly come into play. Whereas GDI's buildings are all but walled off because they have tact, HON and strip are windowed and mass amounts of units dropping from aerial vehicles can easily get in. Even if some die, quite a bunch will manage to come in unless the defense is centralized. I've seen two-pronged assaults happen and trust me, it would be hard with the mine limit to defend due to Nod having to spread thin their forces. An example would be a chinook at HON loaded with troops alongside multi-orcas at strip with an ion or two placed at either buildings on a map like Walls. Scary shit.

As for those who say that Nod buildings would be an indomitable fortress with excess mines if a building is destroyed, the same thing would apply to GDI, would it not? In fact, more so due to the walled off nature of their buildings. There's a difference between walking through an open door with an explosive trap visible before you and walking through a closed off entrance, unaware of what lies behind. Additionally, disarming those mines would be a painful task for both sides regardless.

In the end, I think that while schrott might be somewhat right about his viewpoint on the mines, he's attributing it to the wrong threat.

[Madkill40]

Nod has the advantage and disadvantage of a higher ceiling with HoN, much likes the weapons factory.

 

Are we seriously going to have to mention every balance to you 'imbalance' in equivalence to winning a game on Renegade X?

 

Because funnily enough roofs don't come into the realm of mining, roofs comes under the pretense of Actively Defending for large games. Which also includes considering where all the mines are and actively going to that area to check up on any potential infiltrators, suddenly the mining problem comes under actively defending the bases' problems. 

 

You'd be surprised how many GDI and Nod you can come across now, they're mental, the GDI ones are a lot more noticeable so the mine limit is fine as it is.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Madkill40