Thoughts on Infinite Ammo for Infantry

[yosh56]

Just curious as to who would be down to test out having infinite ammo for all infantry primaries (save whatever weapons really ought not to have it).

We already have a mutator for it, and to be honest I don't really see infantry primaries having infinite ammo as GAME BREAKING. As was said once on this board already, running out of ammo is just more annoying than anything.

Sidearms would still be useful in that it'd be faster to switch to a sidearm in 1 second to finish off a target, than it would be to wait 3 and a half seconds (Which is the average reload time) to start firing your primary again.

[HaTe]

I like it. There's only a few guns that you run out of ammo before dying or refilling for health anyway.

Renegade servers who utilized this saw an increase in player-count, too.

[RoundShades]

For some reason, I still like the idea of weapons having an ammo limit. Well, some at least. And since those some (rocket soldier) are the only ones that ever really run out, just make sure the rest of the primaries continue to have ample ammo, 500 rounds per person seems to be nearly indepletable.

The rocket soldier is one of the worst ones for the ammo system too, the original renegade had a completely different rocket soldier so it had nearly no problem beyond that with infinite ammo. Volt rifles get a pretty big buff with infinite ammo, being that they can go in swarms and just sweep the horizon with their limitless Raiden abilities...

[Electrifyer809]

I don't see it being too big of an issue for basic infantry at least.

[yosh56]

For some reason, I still like the idea of weapons having an ammo limit. Well, some at least. And since those some (rocket soldier) are the only ones that ever really run out, just make sure the rest of the primaries continue to have ample ammo, 500 rounds per person seems to be nearly indepletable.

The rocket soldier is one of the worst ones for the ammo system too, the original renegade had a completely different rocket soldier so it had nearly no problem beyond that with infinite ammo. Volt rifles get a pretty big buff with infinite ammo, being that they can go in swarms and just sweep the horizon with their limitless Raiden abilities...

Infinite ammo doesn't imply infinite health or infinite magazines, so in all honesty I don't think this buffs the Volt Rifle too terribly much. If anything it just buffs ALL infantry capable of doing damage to buildings in that now any of them would be able to kill a building. On the flip-side of that, it's not like they can instagib a building any better than they could before.

As for 500 rounds being 'indepletable', that basically sums up the purpose of just giving infinite ammo. Most units/players aren't going to run out of ammo anyway, and when they do... well it's just annoying due to having to go find a crate or run all the way back to base to refill.

The biggest issue I have with limited ammo is infantry can't actually HOLD a position while vehicles can. This means you completely lose your ability to actually HOLD the field when you lose vehicles due to having to rely on your base to refill your ammo, as well as other people to heal you, as opposed to vehicles which just need heals.

In terms of what weapons wouldn't get infinite ammo: we were thinking explosives obviously, and maybe sniper rifles... maybe.

[RoundShades]

The biggest issue I have with limited ammo is infantry can't actually HOLD a position while vehicles can. This means you completely lose your ability to actually HOLD the field when you lose vehicles due to having to rely on your base to refill your ammo, as well as other people to heal you, as opposed to vehicles which just need heals.

In terms of what weapons wouldn't get infinite ammo: we were thinking explosives obviously, and maybe sniper rifles... maybe.

Planetside 2 players would argue you should have to return to base to refill vehicles. But that is neither here nor there.

I would argue there are more clever ways to do field ammo, like an ammo pack as an item that takes a beacon-planting animation to deploy.

Lastly, snipers? You want to give it to everyone BUT snipers and rocketeers? Just give the rest of the "enough" ammo then. Give all of them an additional clip, to the autorifle, to the volt rifle, even to the marksman and the regular chaingunner. I would be uncertain with Patch, laser chaingunner, Gunner, Grenadier, Chem Sprayer, McFarland, Snipers, or Rocket Soldier, and that's half the infantry. It would be more "across the board" instead of "divide up special niche rules for every little thing in the game" to just increase the carry capacity for weapons that we don't really care about. Especially when we have such a long list of infantry that might need less mag size, let alone total ammo carry size.

To humor you, the damage/reload on all those units would need adjusted if they had infinite ammo. LCG, just a slightly longer reload time. Rocket soldier, would need pretty big nerfs indeed, enough to possibly mess with delicate air balance. Snipers would also need longer reload times and rof times to the point they definitely would lose their Renegade close-quarter charm in the hands of anyone that ain't Yosh. On the other hand, Grenadier would just need nerfs that he already needs anyway. McFarland, had a delicate line, where if you nerf him too much it won't matter how much ammo he has, because he will never threaten anyone and will die in 100% of fights, rendering him an easy avoid-buying class...

[yosh56]

The biggest issue I have with limited ammo is infantry can't actually HOLD a position while vehicles can. This means you completely lose your ability to actually HOLD the field when you lose vehicles due to having to rely on your base to refill your ammo, as well as other people to heal you, as opposed to vehicles which just need heals.

In terms of what weapons wouldn't get infinite ammo: we were thinking explosives obviously, and maybe sniper rifles... maybe.

Planetside 2 players would argue you should have to return to base to refill vehicles. But that is neither here nor there.

I would argue there are more clever ways to do field ammo, like an ammo pack as an item that takes a beacon-planting animation to deploy.

Lastly, snipers? You want to give it to everyone BUT snipers and rocketeers? Just give the rest of the "enough" ammo then. Give all of them an additional clip, to the autorifle, to the volt rifle, even to the marksman and the regular chaingunner. I would be uncertain with Patch, laser chaingunner, Gunner, Grenadier, Chem Sprayer, McFarland, Snipers, or Rocket Soldier, and that's half the infantry. It would be more "across the board" instead of "divide up special niche rules for every little thing in the game" to just increase the carry capacity for weapons that we don't really care about. Especially when we have such a long list of infantry that might need less mag size, let alone total ammo carry size.

To humor you, the damage/reload on all those units would need adjusted if they had infinite ammo. LCG, just a slightly longer reload time. Rocket soldier, would need pretty big nerfs indeed, enough to possibly mess with delicate air balance. Snipers would also need longer reload times and rof times to the point they definitely would lose their Renegade close-quarter charm in the hands of anyone that ain't Yosh. On the other hand, Grenadier would just need nerfs that he already needs anyway. McFarland, had a delicate line, where if you nerf him too much it won't matter how much ammo he has, because he will never threaten anyone and will die in 100% of fights, rendering him an easy avoid-buying class...

I only mention snipers because a post from the devs a long time ago mentioned that they felt like snipers would be too camp-friendly with infinite ammo. Me personally, I would just want to go across the board with infinite ammo sans explosives.

Pretty sure nothing would feel any more powerful and NEED a nerf just because it can now do things indefinitely, but it still would just be doing the same things it was doing. No more damage; no more reload speed; no extra ammo in its magazine. It literally is just capable of being where it is until you actually dispose of it. A sniper round to the face is still going to make your problems disappear.

As much as there's talk about it, I'm pretty sure the only way to test it would be just to put it in effect and see if it really does break anything.

[RoundShades]

I wouldn't mind a short test. Couldn't be worst than the current combo of very generous credit pools and indefinitely affordable airdrops...

[Canucck]

no.

servers should just have refill crates be slightly higher %

[RoundShades]

no.

servers should just have refill crates be slightly higher %

No, they can test the ammo thing...

...But you are right, the crates should detect lack of ammo or missing 50+ health, and be like 50% chance of refill. I go so often without finding one when needed.

On the other hand, if infinite ammo was a thing, refill crates should be entirely different, and only show up when the health (not armor) is lowered. Ammo would no longer be a problem, people wouldn't need refills as often.

[yosh56]

no.

servers should just have refill crates be slightly higher %

That's pretty short-sighted considering refill crates are few and far between; would be in the way of getting useful things like vehicle crates/spy-crates, and they only help one person in anyway.

@Bro: Crates already take your health into account for giving out refill crates

[epicelite]

I have no problems with infinite ammo, the only exception is snipers should still have finite ammo. In fact, just remove snipers from the game.

[Bananas]

I have no problem trying it out or having infinite ammo stay. If some people don't like it, then an easy compromise is just increase the already low amounts of ammo for everyone. Even just giving all guns two more magazines would be amazing in my opinion.

[salarite]

I really support trying out ideas! Not just this one, but others as well - seeing a proposed change for yourself ingame is much better than arguing in words only.

I personally feel seeing infinite ammo is a bit immersion-breaking, but I'm open to the idea.

[yosh56]

I really support trying out ideas! Not just this one, but others as well - seeing a proposed change for yourself ingame is much better than arguing in words only.

I personally feel seeing infinite ammo is a bit immersion-breaking, but I'm open to the idea.

You're right, because NOTHING in the game has infinite ammo already.

[salarite]

You're right, because NOTHING in the game has infinite ammo already.

Yes, but silenced pistol and Chinook guns are not the same as all free infantry classes' weapons. also why the caps?

[Goku]

I think the pistols should have inf ammo only, but if weapon drops get fixed would be cool if you could collect ammo off the fallen enemies?

[RoundShades]

@Bro: Crates already take your health into account for giving out refill crates

I know, but they currently do NOT give you a refill at full, and DO give one if you need it at a 20% odds or so. 50% would just make me rage less at not getting one.

If it is 50%, then RNG hates me, I tried 4 times and didn't get. Yet I still sometimes get them when it feels stupid to.

[GatsuFox]

Infinite ammo is not a good idea. Instead players should drop backpacks/ammo packs on death and field stay should be AWARDED not GIVEN.

[Gaysha]

drops worked really well in oldren, i think its a better solution than infinite ammo.. you cant keep your distance to the action for all that long.

If ammo was refillable in field it would make so many more characters viable, id be up for trying anything honestly

[Axesor]

Oh please PLEASE gimme that! I love this idea!

[NodSaibot]

Infinite ammo is not a good idea. Instead players should drop backpacks/ammo packs on death and field stay should be AWARDED not GIVEN.

[Handepsilon]

If ammo pack drop is going to be a thing, the tier needs to be looked out on. Like tier 2 drop gives a lot of ammo to tier 0, lots ammo but not as much as tier 0 for tier 1, moderate ammo for tier 2, and lesser ammo for tier 3... that way, freebies won't be abused as ammo source too much

[yosh56]

Already looking at building drops for health/armour for field longevity on that end.

We'll probably enact the infinite ammo mutator on the NA server as a test run, as honestly since we've been toying with it it's obvious that most people will probably DIE long before they'd ever even have run out of ammo.

[Canucck]

no.

servers should just have refill crates be slightly higher %

That's pretty short-sighted considering refill crates are few and far between; would be in the way of getting useful things like vehicle crates/spy-crates, and they only help one person in anyway.

Giving them a higher spawn chance directly suggests making them not "few and far between" lol. If I'm almost dead or out of ammo then there's nothing more useful than a refill crate imo. Running back to base to refill only helps one person, being able to stay in the fight helps your entire team. You're all backwards

[RoundShades]

Already looking at building drops for health/armour for field longevity on that end.

We'll probably enact the infinite ammo mutator on the NA server as a test run, as honestly since we've been toying with it it's obvious that most people will probably DIE long before they'd ever even have run out of ammo.

Cool. I might wana see it, let me know when. I mean now?

Also, if you can just make a mutator whenever, how come you haven't attached a mutator to modify cost multiplier of airdrops? That sounds like more of a game changer, especially with people's moping...

[salarite]

@Bro: Crates already take your health into account for giving out refill crates

and DO give one if you need it at a 20% odds or so. 50% would just make me rage less at not getting one.

If it is 50%, then RNG hates me, I tried 4 times and didn't get. Yet I still sometimes get them when it feels stupid to.

I agree the chance of refill crates is not high enough. Most of the time when you are hurt you will just get money, money and even more money.

[yosh56]

Also, if you can just make a mutator whenever, how come you haven't attached a mutator to modify cost multiplier of airdrops? That sounds like more of a game changer, especially with people's moping...

One step at a time. Also things still have to actually be... you know... coded.

[DoctorB0NG]

Also, if you can just make a mutator whenever, how come you haven't attached a mutator to modify cost multiplier of airdrops? That sounds like more of a game changer, especially with people's moping...

One step at a time. Also things still have to actually be... you know... coded.

As well as tested on a server as opposed to just skirmish mode.

[NodSaibot]

They didn't do the best job in preparing the game for modding and mutating

[RoundShades]

They didn't do the best job in preparing the game for modding and mutating

They did what they could as a small team. Really, the engine did the rest, and just so.

Also, they are making a first pass at a browser that shows servers with custom maps. That is "doing something" for modding and mutating.

[RypeL]

They didn't do the best job in preparing the game for modding and mutating

There's a tutorial about mutators and I posted examples. As renx mutator just work like ut mutator you can find millions of examples for mutators on the web. To change specific renx aspects you have to read through the code a bit there's no way arround that. So the only thing preventing people from doing mutators is their lazyness.

[Ruud033]

They didn't do the best job in preparing the game for modding and mutating

There's a tutorial about mutator and I posted examples. As renx mutator just work like ut mutator you can find millions of examples for mutator on the web. To change specific renx aspects you have to read through the code a bit there's no way arround that. So the only thing preventing people from doing mutators is their lazyness.

True @ this! Same goes for mapping I think.

[yosh56]

They didn't do the best job in preparing the game for modding and mutating

There's a tutorial about mutators and I posted examples. As renx mutator just work like ut mutator you can find millions of examples for mutators on the web. To change specific renx aspects you have to read through the code a bit there's no way arround that. So the only thing preventing people from doing mutators is their lazyness.

QFT

Figured it out with just the tutorial then some actual brain power. In terms of understanding Unreal Script, it's just a matter of Google and looking through a tutorial/reference guide from time to time.

[RoundShades]

They didn't do the best job in preparing the game for modding and mutating

There's a tutorial about mutator and I posted examples. As renx mutator just work like ut mutator you can find millions of examples for mutator on the web. To change specific renx aspects you have to read through the code a bit there's no way arround that. So the only thing preventing people from doing mutators is their lazyness.

True @ this! Same goes for mapping I think.

I would agree, except for the fact that apparently EKT and TMX can in fact build mutators at whim (they are hard work, but they have done it many a time on few days effort), and that a lot of people are building their own maps.

Mod work has interested the community. The community, however, is quite a little bit small, and it is still so early in the release of the uncooked build, so it just hasn't produced skyrim-amounts of mods yet.

Figured it out with just the tutorial then some actual brain power. In terms of understanding Unreal Script, it's just a matter of Google and looking through a tutorial/reference guide from time to time.

It's UNREAL, like I said before, the ENGINE ITSELF is a very popular engine across the entire gaming industry, and is designed for modding and identical coding in many cases. Like RypeL said, it is just like any Unreal game including UT2007, all mutators work the exact same in regards to it.

The only things the devs can do, is host a database of mods, like the subforum down there at the bottom for instance, and make the server browser friendly at showing custom maps and related information, which they are trying to do a pass at. The rest, the engine takes care of.

Also, as far as devs not designing around modding, I am pretty sure Renegade wasn't designed for modding, it was just built poorly open ended and that allowed for it. FTL wasn't built for modding, but it happened to be easy and when it surprised the devs they just gave them a subforum and moderator and told them to have fun with it. Same with Minecraft, Java Modding was popular before Minecraft and the two mixing is what put Minecraft on the map and the devs did the same thing as far as openly allowing it. A lot of devs don't plan for modding and just happen to explode with it.

[Ap2000]

As was said once on this board already, running out of ammo is just more annoying than anything.

I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, but I disagree.

Having to run back to base takes the heat off of the enemy.

Imagine a LCG with unlimited ammo.

[yosh56]

As was said once on this board already, running out of ammo is just more annoying than anything.

I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, but I disagree.

Having to run back to base takes the heat off of the enemy.

Imagine a LCG with unlimited ammo.

Imagine an Artillery or MRLS with infinite am--

Oh wait.

[salarite]

Imagine an Artillery or MRLS with infinite am--

Oh wait.

The thread is about ammo for infantry, isn't it?

[Ap2000]

As was said once on this board already, running out of ammo is just more annoying than anything.

I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, but I disagree.

Having to run back to base takes the heat off of the enemy.

Imagine a LCG with unlimited ammo.

Imagine an Artillery or MRLS with infinite am--

Oh wait.

It's not like I said I'm a fan of that.

Anyway, I just take that as part of the Renegade gameplay.

[DoctorB0NG]

Imagine an Artillery or MRLS with infinite am--

Oh wait.

The thread is about ammo for infantry, isn't it?

Yeah it is. If infantry want to have similar utility to tanks, why do they finite ammo while tanks don't?

[RoundShades]

I can not really see all that much of a problem, as long as possibly clip size or reload speed was more limited in some classes. Reload time for snipers. Clip Size for Grenadiers or perhaps just damage in general lol. Rocket Soldiers got enough nerfs with a mutator recently that I can genuinely accept him just having infinite ammo outright. The laser chaingun may need a slightly smaller clip, and the regular chaingun could use the same sized clip given it rects stuff although it can keep 100 round clips if it gets it's headshot and bodyshot damage nerf.

Secondaries. Give Secondaries 2 clips only. Those are the only thing I can see that shouldn't be infinite as a 350 investment goes farther in offensive power than a 450 investment. Secondaries should be useful and powerful, but only as a utility, not a bread and butter.

[Canucck]

Imagine an Artillery or MRLS with infinite am--

Oh wait.

The thread is about ammo for infantry, isn't it?

Yeah it is. If infantry want to have similar utility to tanks, why do they finite ammo while tanks don't?

Because they have 10x the impact on gameplay that tanks do. Credits and ammo the only two minor resource management aspects of the game, and credits finally just got a little more important again, so don't go and fuck with the other side of that now with such an extreme change to ammo...

If you change anything with ammo it should just be evaluating how many kills or how much tank/building damage each class should reasonably be able to do per clip and overall, then adjust the amounts accordingly

as long as possibly clip size or reload speed was more limited in some classes. Reload time for snipers. Clip Size for Grenadiers or perhaps just damage in general lol.

Sounds like a great way to make the game more tedious and boring.

[RoundShades]

as long as possibly clip size or reload speed was more limited in some classes. Reload time for snipers. Clip Size for Grenadiers or perhaps just damage in general lol.

Sounds like a great way to make the game more tedious and boring.

One may say trips back and forth to refill is tedious. But sitting at a base entrance with infantry, just hammering on a structure for 2 minutes straight, also can be sort of tedious.

Overall though, I don't care either way, because you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. It wouldn't mess up the game, nobody runs out of ammo. Ever. Field snipers maybe, but again, one can argue that they rather snipers have less shots fired per minute, than a total shots per lifespan. That way, a sniper kills a lot fewer guys during his usually limited life. Whether they did this or not, 99 percent of infantry lives would be exactly the same: Go out into the field, get into a fight, and die. 99% of times, infantry fires way less than 200 rounds, unless they are defending against air raids and are standing literally 2 meters from a structure doorway and purchase terminal. In which case, they are not just getting ammo, but health as well.

HEALTH is the MAIN resource that is micromanaged. That is the main thing that sends people back to base. Not ammo. Death. It also CONTROLS credits, because the more you fail at micromanaging health, the more purchases you must make to replace lost equipment. Including Tank Health. Especially Structure Health. And Crazily So with Beacon Health, a limited health bar you must babysit for 54 seconds, you must make sure it's health doesn't reach 0 and it is a heat of the moment event.

[Canucck]

It wouldn't mess up the game, nobody runs out of ammo. Ever.

I run out of ammo so often on just about every class that sometimes I suicide to get back to base faster, and I'd still rather keep it that way over unlimited ammo.

[yosh56]

It wouldn't mess up the game, nobody runs out of ammo. Ever.

I run out of ammo so often on just about every class that sometimes I suicide to get back to base faster, and I'd still rather keep it that way over unlimited ammo.

Full offense: you're an extreme exception, as oppose to the rule, so I can't even take half of your suggestions with more than a grain of salt when it comes to infantry combat.

Because they have 10x the impact on gameplay that tanks do. Credits and ammo the only two minor resource management aspects of the game, and credits finally just got a little more important again, so don't go and fuck with the other side of that now with such an extreme change to ammo...

As BT said, health is generally a greater determining factor than ammo for tanks and infantry. Hell, tanks have the monopoly on health, survivability, armour, ammo and cost-effectiveness.

The only 'issue' that really would arise from a game of average-better players would be rockets/grenadiers suddenly being able to be true left-click champions like MRLS and Artillery. Even then, it's a lot easier to just shoot a Grenadier in the head once than it is to run through 400hp of light armour.

[Canucck]

You can get repairs from an eng, but you need to go back to base for ammo. Ammo is more limiting, and if someone is spending more time running between a PT and the fight than they are actually fighting, whatever they're trying to do is probably not a very good idea.

[Ap2000]

Overall though, I don't care either way, because you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. It wouldn't mess up the game, nobody runs out of ammo. Ever.

I don't know how wreckless you play, but I certainly do run out of ammo for my primary weapon every now and then. Or at least come dangerously close to running out of ammo and decide to refill before I have no bullets/lasers/rockets left.

Especially with units that do a decent amount of damage against buildings and vehicles (LCG, rocket soldier, Patch e.g.). You always have something to shoot with those.

[RoundShades]

Overall though, I don't care either way, because you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. It wouldn't mess up the game, nobody runs out of ammo. Ever.

I don't know how wreckless you play, but I certainly do run out of ammo for my primary weapon every now and then. Or at least come dangerously close to running out of ammo and decide to refill before I have no bullets/lasers/rockets left.

Especially with units that do a decent amount of damage against buildings and vehicles (LCG, rocket soldier, Patch e.g.). You always have something to shoot with those.

LCG and Patch do run out of ammo often. Add a second or 2 to their reload time still comphensates for that even if they survive to use an extra clip before needing to return to base for health.

Also, a lot of people don't play recklessly, but you can't outright avoid taking damage and engineers aren't an infinite supply of repair unless camping a tunnel entrance with enough people to make it safe. And even then, it is usually their ammo that forces them to go refill, but they also occasionally die, and they generally can just be held at the tunnel entrance in perpetual stalemate with enough mines in enough layers with a single guy waiting for them to start diffusing and putting a round in a hotwire head.

[Ap2000]

I don't know how wreckless you play, but I certainly do run out of ammo for my primary weapon every now and then. Or at least come dangerously close to running out of ammo and decide to refill before I have no bullets/lasers/rockets left.

Especially with units that do a decent amount of damage against buildings and vehicles (LCG, rocket soldier, Patch e.g.). You always have something to shoot with those.

LCG and Patch do run out of ammo often. Add a second or 2 to their reload time still comphensates for that even if they survive to use an extra clip before needing to return to base for health.

I think that doesn't compensate for infinite ammo at all.

[RoundShades]

LCG and Patch do run out of ammo often. Add a second or 2 to their reload time still comphensates for that even if they survive to use an extra clip before needing to return to base for health.

I think that doesn't compensate for infinite ammo at all.

They will take longer to spend the same amount of bullets. Most people will die in the time it takes to spend the regular ammo capacity they had, even with infinite ammo. Ergo, it does.

Honestly, the 2% of people who usually can live long enough without a refill while in the field to spend their entire carry capacity of ammo, will just be slightly rewarded by this. I say slightly, because there is no way they can live long enough to spend 2x their carry capacity without a health supplement. I can live with that being a reward for longevity.

I watched a lot of Kenz plays, and he rarely goes back for a reload. I seen LavaDragon play, I seen as many people I could look up on youtube, and I also played some myself and looked back. The only time I ever refill, is when I am in a base swarming with enemy tanks so I have to make constant trips in and out of buildings for health. And that is still for health, although in those situations I spend 1000 rounds of ammo constantly.