testman Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 tl;dr: How do we make newcomers understand that K/D does not matter in this game, only teamwork, understanding priorities and correct response to situation get team to victory. I propose some tutorial that explains basics and why this is not CoD/BF. I am getting more and more irritated by large number, dare I say majority, of players play Renegade X like they would play CoD or Battlefield. Most lack the understanding of RTS and what is a priority in certain situation. There were times when we had ref down, but nobody even tried to capture silo. There were times when team was informed that med+mammoth rush is coming, 5 minutes in advance, and noone got flame tank to counter. >but testman, RenX is not RTS Yes, but does that take away the need for situational thinking that you would usually use in RTS? In fact, I once said in chat "It's like nobody played C&C games before" and was quite shocked when response was "What is C&C?". I think that when game starts, player should get prompt "What does C&C stand for", and if answer is not "Command&Conquer", heavy tutorial starts that explains how game works, what tactics can be used, how to properly communicate with your team, etc. . (and yes, that is TotalBuiscuit explaining stuff, AFAIK he really liked that game)My problem is that there are a lot of matches where I am among top 5 players, but at the end I see that I was getting killed about 3x more than my teammates. It's like they care about their K/D ratio. I managed to get to top of whole scoreboard with 0.2 K/D ratio. >inb4 get gut Why am I on top of scoreboard then? Because I was capturing silos? repairing buildings when they were damaged? took care of almost destroyed harvester? If anyone read my whole rant, I am quite grateful, I had to get that off my chest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaTe Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Casual gaming has players playing for fun. While this does mean that some people will still play to win, it also means that others will only play for a specific other purpose (such as K/D). Competitive gameplay is all about winning. I always wished there were 2 separate server listings for this reason. One for casual play and one for competitive play. Now that most game-changing bugs are fixed and whatnot, I do expect the eventual increase in competitive play. Whether private servers, clanwars servers, or just established competitive play servers, I too wish that this was something that could be easily accounted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundShades Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Password servers are entirely possible if you can find enough competitives to fill them. In my opinion, 14 a team would suffice with teamwork on a competitive scale, and you could always use 20 people if you got that many. But the playerbase is happy enough with the current situation. To be honest, a tutorial showing teamwork could help, and rewards for teamwork via vet system would be nice too A LA assist vet points and proximity to large squad of teammates passive bonus. If people simply carried out tasks in groups more, spotted more, and didn't wander around as aimlessly, which I do all 3 at times, then it would be a sharper competitive game from casuals. And all that can happen through veterancy rewards to be honest. If the silo, repairs, squad travel, harvester defence, ect. rewarded veterancy, then one could be taught to play right by dangling a carrot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truxa Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Guilty of the K/D playstyle! I'm sorry! But let me explain: My K/D rises because of covert sniping techs/hots/engi's in field, repairing their tanks. My K/D rises because I rush into tunnels with a shotgunner/chem/mcfartland and kill ATLEAST ONE enemy. My K/D rises because I take an SBH with carbine/flechette to stealthily take out enemy snipers and lone-wolves. My K/D rises because of my stealthy approach in almost all situations. My spot on the ending list? Mostly mid to bottom-mid. When I want a higher spot? I put myself into a MLRS/Arty and spam some buildings get in the top 3 or top 5 and do the 1st list again to raise K/D if it's getting close to 1.0. Does that mean I'm a bad player because I watch my K/D? Not in my opinion My opinion is, getting high up on the list because of building-spam, is what is worse! Why? Let me explain: Spamming buildings will route enemies to get hot/tech/engi to repair that structure. While it is true they will field less offensive weaponry or tanks, it's quite hard to take down buildings without an organized rush. Buildings start to fall/topple when the enemy DOES have mostly offensive weaponry and no one repairing the buildings, thus, an effective rush without the building spam is better than both! Repairing silo's and harvesters is a guaranteed early-start to get a pointlead but would hardly get you on the top throughout the entire match. Don't get me wrong, I'd be feeling much MUCH better when K/D and scoreboards disappear so the only way to "feel superior" is to actually team-up and ground the enemy to pulp. A map-win would be the only way to acknowledge your superiority, just like in an RTS BTW, Tiberian Sun had a score-board system, tracking how many kills you had. So there is some relation to RTS though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henk Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 An ingame tutorial (either a playable scripted level, or a video with selectable chapters) would be very nice, even if it just covers the basic stuff of what the game is about and why teamwork is usually very important. It should also cover mine placement and limits, and not leaving your vehicle (there's some exceptions though, I know that), those 2 mistakes have been really getting on my nerves since I'm back to playing regularly in Beta 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundShades Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 My opinion is, getting high up on the list because of building-spam, is what is worse! I agree with that to a degree, which is why a Vet system should incorporate more reward for repair than building spam, and also reward kills. And that still isn't enough, honestly kills should give you at least 1/10 a unit's value. 15 creds for a free infantry, 25 for a 175, 50 for a 350 or 400, 60 for a 500, and 80 for a 1k. But that is just because building spam is a mechanic that needs rebalanced. Part of the game, sure. But a vet system should reward a valiant defense, especially a defense being won by attrition (more kills defending against the shelling vehicles). The score and creds you get from shelling a building is enough, and the creds you get should be reduced slightly at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 My opinion is, getting high up on the list because of building-spam, is what is worse! kills should give you at least 1/10 a unit's value That's exactly what happens in classical Renegade, everything you kill gives you 1/10 of the original cost as points (= credits), except free infantry gives 3 points / credits and buildings give 750 points / credits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaTe Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Nukes disarming give 300 and c4 disarming gives 30 in the original as well. You get 1/10 the cost if you do ALL of the damage, not just the kill shot. Just for clarification for anyone who may not know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testman Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 When you guys say veterancy, you mean some global ranking system? I agree that this could be a great way to put good players together and make matches more enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truxa Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I agree that this could be a great way to put good players together and make matches more enjoyable. This would be the exact opposite! Putting all the good players together, will make 1 team heavily overpowering the other team in tactics, resulting in 5-minute-matches. No one likes those, winner or losing side! Unless you are a BF/CoD nerd, which this community heavily dislikes Just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testman Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 I meant together as in a match, not as in a team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundShades Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I meant together as in a match, not as in a team You are talking auto-matchmake. Which in an IDEAL world would be the best. However, it takes a playerbase of at least 300 players on at a time, to attempt to match casuals to casuals and veterans to veterans without accidentally putting bads with goods and pissing them off and shying them away. What we currently have, is a choose-a-server, which considering there are community owned servers and admins and 1-4 servers full at a time, is the best way for now hands down. What he talks about, is an ingame system, where everyone starts a match with 0 vet points, they get vet points from actions not credits, like repairing 1000 health, getting kills on infantry and vehicles, ect... and those point buy prohibitive items like secondaries and vehicles without credits or the structure alive, and that is hopefully the way you earn things like that. It would be swimming, if it also rewarded and rewarded better for capture of silo, killing enemies around silo, killing enemy engineers within repair distance of their teammates vehicle, killing enemies with high killstreaks like snipers, assists, and time spent around 3+ teammates. Then a team is both encouraged to play tactically and proper, and rewarded for it despite being on the losing end of a siege just by playing a war of attrition with the tunnels and countering the vehicles without dying as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axesor Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Imo there shouldnt be any K/D and Deaths displayed in scoreboard. Only kills, assistance and score. Even if I am top in scoreboard, my K/D pisses me off sometimes and I am not the only one. I think this little change would make big things in this game. Agresor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundShades Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Imo there shouldnt be any K/D and Deaths displayed in scoreboard. Only kills, assistance and score. Even if I am top in scoreboard, my K/D pisses me off sometimes and I am not the only one. I think this little change would make big things in this game. Agresor Deaths are the one thing one shouldn't consider, considering the former noobjetting, the fact you need to sacrifice deaths to accomplish things sometimes, and the fact the game doesn't focus on it. I think that would be a fair change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ap2000 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Imo there shouldnt be any K/D and Deaths displayed in scoreboard. Only kills, assistance and score. Even if I am top in scoreboard, my K/D pisses me off sometimes and I am not the only one. I think this little change would make big things in this game. Agresor I don't mind not knowing the K/D of others, but I absolutely want to know mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaTe Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 K/D is nice to know and nice to compare. I like to know that for gameplay and personal reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxes Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I got some of my steam friends (all of them I met in Team Fortress 2, Left 4 Dead 2, or CS:GO) to try out Beta 4, but most of them can't get into it because they feel that the game is too clunky (vehicle and infantry movement, vehicles especially) and buggy (crashing, explosion freezing, SBH spectator, Apache/Orca wobbling, etc.) They liked the overall idea of C&C mode and the diversity of the two factions. They love the amount of teamwork necessary to win games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundShades Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I got some of my steam friends (all of them I met in Team Fortress 2, Left 4 Dead 2, or CS:GO) to try out Beta 4, but most of them can't get into it because they feel that the game is too clunky (vehicle and infantry movement, vehicles especially) and buggy (crashing, explosion freezing, SBH spectator, Apache/Orca wobbling, etc.) They liked the overall idea of C&C mode and the diversity of the two factions. They love the amount of teamwork necessary to win games. I agree these would be the best areas to spend work at. Personally, vehicles can't get much better with their delay and all, but one thing to try with the "sprint" button is for it to be more like a "jerk" button, where it nudges the vehicle basically. That way if you use it the second you change directions you can avoid shots better, and if you use it while your moving forward you get to top-speed faster but it doesn't really take you above that. Besides that, just leave the vehicles with acceptably mild acceleration with whatever the "sprint" button's top speed was anyway. Infantry, they are honestly more fast paced than any other game. including the base character of SMNC. They are more mobile than Karl, less than Assault. Commando classes are obviously more mobile (SMNC commandos have rolls like the Black Dawn demo had), enforcer classes obviously less in trade for chubby health and firepower. Any other game I ever played has clunkier infantry, including any CoD and Battlefield, even though Black Ops 2 had dives and Advanced Warfare has superjump on everything basically because they thought it would be cool game design to give sniper rifle no scopes the superjumps to go have fun with... Bugs are hard to fix, but they are the single best thing to fix, as far as the flying vehicles not wobbling by locking them to an axis at the front/back/bothsides, and crashes, and the spectator thing if that can be reproduced... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaTe Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 The spectator bug has only ever happened to me when I was a character in a vehicle and then that vehicle died and I went to the purchase terminal before my character died, and bought a SBH. It has happened 3 times in total for me, and each time this was the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepRubi Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 As for the K/D argument. That's something I've been thinking about since Beta 2. My thought would be to keep kills as it is, but replace the deaths stat with Vehicle Kills. The maybe have the displayed K/D ratio take into account vehicle kills, and possibly vehicle deaths. It would de-emphasize K/D by not showing deaths on the scoreboard, as well as reward vehicle combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucck Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I think not having deaths/kd in-match is a good idea, but there should still be very detailed out of game stats. There's not enough out of game stats atm, it'd be really nice to see stats broken down by map, accuracy per weapon, time spent using each class/weapon/vehicle, etc (in addition to overall stats) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundShades Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I think not having deaths/kd in-match is a good idea, but there should still be very detailed out of game stats. There's not enough out of game stats atm, it'd be really nice to see stats broken down by map, accuracy per weapon, time spent using each class/weapon/vehicle, etc (in addition to overall stats) For personal record, yeah. I like the dev's idea too. In a Moba, the bot kill stat is usually prioritized in order and size to the kill stat, because bot kills shows how much you progressed your team goal. Vehicles fit that shoe in Renegade X. Mobas show deaths because they progress your enemy's leveling, but that isn't the case in RenX so that stat is unnecesary on in-game boards like end of match stats. If trackable by players, fine, especially per map stats would be cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaTe Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Just add vkills and keep deaths. K/D can always be calculated user-side if need be, so that can be replaced anyway, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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