Beta 4 Preliminary Changelist

[Bananas]

The tiny spread we are talking about will mean nothing, nothing at all, at close range.

I am willing to try the spread, but I still don't see the point of it. If it's only for long shots, it's already more beneficial to scope IMO. If the spread actually effected short to mid range shots, I would at least understand the reasoning behind it being added (not that I would want it). Anyways, I already talked about this last post.

Lets look at this again: We have a game where you dont have advanced movement options like strafe jumping or dodging. You cant even hop arround much. You can sprint but thats the only thing.

Honestly, I think movement should be looked at too. Sprint on vehicles is just another button to hold down. Sprint on infantry lasts forever and I would argue you are a sitting duck when it runs out. Whoevers sprint runs out mid sniper battle tends to lose from my experience. Why not raise base movement speed and make sprint into sprint. Make it a short significant speed boost. This would help against wallhuggers since you could actually rush them better.

I kinda have to agree with the ease of sniping as well.

It's because of certain game mechanics. As I mentioned in a previous post, most snipers have their noses glued to the walls. Not only can you see around walls while poking in and out, but you get a giant targeting box. The targeting box lasts FOREVER. I can play ring around the rosy because I always know where my enemy is. This gives snipers, rave/syds, and engis (with remotes) a huge advantage since they WILL know where the enemy is and what they do. This removes a huge element of how you deal with snipers in FPS. You kill snipers by outplaying them with movement. A common scenario in renegade is hiding behind a pillar from a sniper. In most games this would give you the advantage as you can close the gap and get the upper hand in surprising the sniper. You would force the sniper to take a quick shot at an unknown position and time. In renegade you get a targeting box that stays for a LONG time. A sniper in renegade can just watch when and where his enemy goes and time his shot accordingly. I can't even count how many kills I get this way. I intentionally lead people to corners and just lead the shot. Third person and targeting boxes GREATLY enhance snipers. I would laugh so hard at a test game where it's locked to first person with no targeting boxes. Snipers would be so much worse then.

And as a matter of fact, in Renegade it is really easy to hit something without having to use the scope. That's not as much of a problem for standard infantry, since one bullet doesn't do a lot of damage.

I don't know what you are talking about. If you can aim well, then most guns just melt people in this game. Chain gun, laser chain gun, carbine, volt auto rifle...All of these will absolutely melt your enemy with headshots. Even without headshots they will hurt. Marksman and soldier will demolish a 1k character with enough headshots. Shotguns are constantly destroying me after their buff. Shoot, even a heavy pistol can melt someone. The time to kill can be really low even without snipers.

In the hypothetical scenario of Ramjets removal, that would leave the Sniper role solely up to BHS and Deadeye.

I was thinking something like this too. Could always change the remaining sniper. It would be easier to balance with only one anyways. I would be fine with snipers costing more even now. 600 is still a fair price for the sniper.

But my main problem with RenX is just getting one shot killed in any way or form when you just bought a 250+ HP unit. I don't mind a Havoc doing up to 230 HP damage headshot damage on any unit, but anything more than that just seems ridiculous to me and makes me not want to play the game at all whenever I get 1 shot killed in the GDI base as a Patch (it happens frequently on Walls).

There is some truth to this that I agree with. I usually avoid buying 1000 characters because I know one lucky shot will just waste my money. As far as dying in one hit as patch, really? You payed less than the sniper did. 450 isn't even that much. Also if you are getting shot in the base, try moving smarter.

introduces quick scoping as a new skill you will have to master

If two snipers go at it and one attempts a quickscope and misses and the other is flailing around and shoots at the body (neck) and the magic RNG shoves the bullet into the head of his opponent then you're saying there's an increase of skill here?

I have played games with quickscoping. I don't mind it, but I'm not sure it would fit renegade. Regardless, the scope would have to be improved for this to work. Half the time it bugs out. Gatsu is right though. Always funny when you noscope a shot and it travels straight to the head for no reason (when you are the one shooting at least).

Möbius and Mendoza are utterly useless right now, because the high-end snipers are just that more effective at nearly everything else, especially against infantry.

Hmmm. Not sure where this comes from. Mobius is super strong right now. Melts vehicles, buildings, and infantry.

I'm seeing a few people suggesting removing ramjets, would you guys be open to that idea? I'm not sure how people who prefer snipers would feel about that, specifically talking to you Bananas.

Personally I don't use ramjets. I find them too expensive, too loud, too visible, and lame (don't like killing people with bodyshots or 1 shotting free inf).

I could see the game working just fine without the ramjet. People would hate it because the ramjet is such an iconic renegade weapon. I think once people adapted, they would find that there are many counters to air. There would be a distinct lack of long range anti-air though. This would be annoying on Walls where the sky ceiling is way up there.

For anti-air, I think sydney/rave could fill the role the ramjet plays somewhat. Mobius/Mendoza are good for melting air if they get close. Chain gunners are decent against air. Heavy pistol is good if you can aim it. Carbine is decent. I mean when you think about it, ramjets were the best at single handedly crippling air. One ramjet wouldn't stop an orca/apache rush though. Renegade has always been about working together. I imagine there would be many ways to melt air or stop the rushes if you are ready as a team.

For light armor, I don't see it being a problem. Humvees and buggies die to anything that shoots. Arties and MRLS are easy enough to kill. Yet again, it's not like one ramjet could over come an arty being repaired. I find chaingunners are amazing at countering mrls/arty. Every class has a timed capable of taking them out. Patch absolutely melts arties. LCG is pretty good against mrls. It's light armor, so just about everything will be decent against it.

Infantry wise I don't think there would be a problem. The 500 sniper still exists to play, it's just more difficult. 500 sniper could always be changed and rebalanced some. It would be much easier to balance one sniper class than try to have a logical progression to a better sniper and still keep balance intact. I imagine you would see more mobius being used (depending on what the ramjet was replaced with).

For ramjet replacement, you could probably just give the carbine. Carbine is already strong enough to be considered a 1000 weapon. It's silent so it would be good for the commando idea you guys seem to want.

I think trying the game without ramjets would definitely be interesting. I would love to test some of this stuff out. Just replace ramjet with carbine and don't let other classes buy carbine on a test server someday. I think it would need testing to see how this would actually impact the game. It would be fun to see what players tend to choose after ramjets are gone. Would tanks start getting wrecked now that there are possibly mobius and sydneys on top of walls cliff instead of ramjets?

[SFJake]

You seriously lost me at Carbine for a 1000$ class. That would be the most boring change in the world compared to the versatility that comes from the ramjet. In fact, the Carbine is a boring weapon even though its quite powerful.

1000$ classes are special. This ain't special.

But you're right. The ramjet is an iconic weapon. Thus it should never be removed. I'd never take part in something like that. Its like trying to play UT without the Flak Cannon.

If you'd remove it, air would reign supreme, light vehicles would be fearless since their armors have lost their most massive drawback, sieges would be unstoppable behind an enemy line...

The way you speak, the normal sniper is overpowered to you. Which is just ridiculous. Yes, snipers put fear into infantry. If they did not, then everyone could move about at every corner as if it didn't mean anything. Which is just insane. The game has free and fast movement, yes, but there needs to be a control of the battlefield through infantry. And thats one of ramjet's key role, just like all 1000$ infantry.

Removing the ramjet might as well mean calling the game something else, honestly.

[Ap2000]

Also if you are getting shot in the base, try moving smarter.

Yeah, that won't work on Walls or Whiteout when you have to get out of the base somehow.

[Handepsilon]

In renegade you get a targeting box that stays for a LONG time. A sniper in renegade can just watch when and where his enemy goes and time his shot

accordingly. I can't even count how many kills I get this way. I intentionally lead people to corners and just lead the shot. Third person and targeting boxes GREATLY enhance snipers. I would laugh so hard at a test game where it's locked to first person with no targeting boxes. Snipers would be so much worse then.

Yes, I mentioned this as well

I'd never play a sniper ever again if I couldn't hipfire at close range, for instance. You'd have just killed every ounce of fun I have in the game's fights. Close-range fights with a ramjet or a sniper are insanely intense.

I'm confused now. I had the impression that people was arguing because some of them snipes without scoping, not because sniping for CQB is impossible now. If it's the latter, I believe the Devs have repeatedly said that the spread will be subtle and won't affect close to mid range

[SFJake]

I know, I said it twice now, I didn't say that against anything that was said. I just gave an example of something that I would hate. I know that, so far, the weapon is not getting changed this way. I know they're not going to change it yet but its just one of many other things that is completely different from modern shooters.

[Havoc89]

Ramjet is certain a very iconic weapon, but if we were to take it out, it would likely stay in the game as a weapon spawn that spawns some where in the map, especially with weapon drop being implemented. The main reason the ramjet has any iconic value is because it can kill free infantry in one hit. Take that away, and it's lost what made it awesome, albeit what made it awesome is also what made it unfair and ridiculous.

I do agree with Bananas that the game would be a lot more fun and balanced without the ramjets, and although the carbine is the first to come to mind first as a replacement weapon for havoc/sakura, I do agree with SFJake that it would be a very boring 1000 credit weapon.

The 500 sniper is already a fantastic weapon, and a lot of players who use snipers prefer it over the ramjet, but there are also just as many if not more who prefer the ramjet, but that is mainly because of it's usefulness against free infantry opting for easy kills. Having a singular definitive sniper is something that I personally thing would give it a lot more value, and would certainly be much better for balancing the game.

SFJake, I vaguely mentioned this in my last post, but we are shifting anti-light armour capability to the anti-tank specific weapons. I'm sure you can figure out which weapons I'm referring to, but the details aren't yet tested enough to say for sure. Not all anti-armour weapons will receive a boost against light armour, because as Bananas mentioned, some are already insanely good taking them out.

As for Mobius, he is OP right now because we increased his range compared to classic ren, and compared to ren, his rate of fire is much faster, so he dishes out the same damage in a much shorter time frame. He was a little bit under-used and we wanted him to be able to rip things apart. We are adding an alt fire mode which is meant to give him some ranged capability with a risk, so the primary fire will likely go back to the shorter range from classic ren. Rate of fire will likely stay the same, as he needs to hold his title of the CQB destroyer of worlds.

[SFJake]

I can't say I'll ever agree with the changes further away from the Ramjet, but the buff to make some weapons more effective against light vehicles was definitely needed. It makes sense that the missile launcher should deal more damage to light vehicles. The problem is I can't think of anything other than that that has the range to replace the ramjet's role. Besides Gunner, kind of, not against air though.

The Ramjet's iconic value is also in its ability to deal heavy damage to light vehicles at a distance. It his most important role after infantry, after all. And thats the part I feel like I would miss the most. Without the threat of long-distance ramjets, light vehicles would have too much freedom. I'd sacrifice the Ramjet's infantry sniping role completely just to keep that power.

I know that ability is not gone yet, only the damage was reduced. I still hope it stays. This is such an heart breaking thing to think about. I mean, fine, you've convinced me that we should just live and try the game with a nerfed ramjet, to see how it goes before seriously considering its removal.

I'm really curious about the Volt Rifle's secondary fire. I don't find the Volt Rifle overpowered in the slightest right now, even with the added range, but with the secondary fire, thats another thing. Definitely curious.

[Goku]

What about making ramjet still one kill inf but instead of insta kill you get knocked to say 50hp left and you bleed out over say 20secs (unless you get repped or pauses in a tank or refill)? That way its still likely to own people in field but would make it less harsh when you are trying to run to your tank or building to building when the hon/bar is down?

I think thats my only bug bear about it is when the hon/bar goes down out comes the noob jets.

But im sure we will be able to give proper opinions once we have tested it.

[OTT]

Removing the Ramjet from RenX is a bad bad idea,and will never make it or at least should never make it.I mean just make the damage to free inf like 175-180 and leave everything as it was or if you want to keep the damage 150 ,maybe increase the damage to orcas/apaches ,that is a good and needed compensation.I'm not sure about changing the characters prices ,but if so make the 500 sniper a 650 or 750 sniper cuz that's his real value(I mean 500 sniper are already too good),maybe then i can think about the ramjet not being in the game.

Weapon drops while now can be enable in b4 ,won't make it to many servers,I'm totally against this idea ,I hope it stays to just a few servers in case people want to play with it enabled ...

for now I'll just wait and see how the testing turns out ,cuz its really hard to judge the game balance just by reading what changes were implanted ,

That's my opinion , peace!

[RoundShades]

What about making ramjet still one kill inf but instead of insta kill you get knocked to say 50hp left and you bleed out over say 20secs (unless you get repped or pauses in a tank or refill)? That way its still likely to own people in field but would make it less harsh when you are trying to run to your tank or building to building when the hon/bar is down?

I think thats my only bug bear about it is when the hon/bar goes down out comes the noob jets.

But im sure we will be able to give proper opinions once we have tested it.

Effects don't take in vehicles. You could go to a vehicle to survive it. Now, tunnels, at least the one shot could continue to fight the havoc/sakura afterwards. Just seems like a highly "micro" mechanic.

The ramjet gets discussed a lot. I don't get it. I was pretty sure it was agreed that the bodyshot damage should be like 150, the damage to light armor if reduced should still be in the realm of "effective", and the weapon maybe should get something to make it worth 1k like that 30 damage to heavy armor or more ammo reserve than the 500.

I think it should have more ammo rather than c4, between that and the heavy armor damage I am sure this arguement wouldn't even be happening right now, and 40 posts in this thread simply wouldn't exist. If ramjet stopped bodyshot-killing free infantry, and had a total ammo capacity of 60, and did low double digit damage to heavy armor, I would imagine it would still be used just like it is now, except dropping maybe a single tier in tunnel fights.

There is so much to be excited for though. Emp nades to clear mines. Smoke nades for infantry to enter bases despite a tower. Did you know the pic/rail might actually be pretty top-dog in the tunnel now? And even with the pic/rail, I imagine many more autorifle and free classes getting usage.

Before, the ramjet and pic used to be too similar. One had a scope, and one did damage to heavy armor. Now, they at least have variety. One does more damage, and one... comes with more c4... (although it really should be more ammo...)

[Handepsilon]

The ramjet gets discussed a lot. I don't get it. I was pretty sure it was agreed that the bodyshot damage should be like 150, the damage to light armor if reduced should still be in the realm of "effective", and the

weapon maybe should get something to make it worth 1k like that 30 damage to heavy armor or more ammo reserve than the 500.

Sniper hipfire spread, I think that's what sparks the most argument

[A-Rodge]

Added bAllowWeaponDrop serversetting

Does this mean I might see SBH snipers on Tmx or EKT?

[RokumanZA]

I'm still very against the ramjet getting taken away from sak and havok as the main weapon, as well as shifting anti-light away to other weapons. This is iconic stuff that's getting changed and is a standard in the game. Is it that much of a game breaker that the ramjet one shots free inf? What about making officer classes still purchasable when bar is down then

[A-Rodge]

I'm still very against the ramjet getting taken away from sak and havok as the main weapon, as well as shifting anti-light away to other weapons. This is iconic stuff that's getting changed and is a standard in the game. Is it that much of a game breaker that the ramjet one shots free inf? What about making officer classes still purchasable when bar is down then

That proposition has been brought up many times and I still think it's viable. Officer and rocket soldier would be fine I think. Maybe increase their cost if bar is down.

[SFJake]

The ramjet gets discussed a lot. I don't get it. I was pretty sure it was agreed that the bodyshot damage should be like 150, the damage to light armor if reduced should still be in the realm of "effective", and the weapon maybe should get something to make it worth 1k like that 30 damage to heavy armor or more ammo reserve than the 500.

But it IS worth the price WITHOUT the buff to heavy armor (and without the nerf to light). Whats up, people. It can still kill infantry efficiently and its a game-changing anti-light weapon.

It does not need compensation. The heavy armor buff is actually too much. The ramjet and the PIC are EXTREMELY different. The ramjet should never affect heavy armor at long range.

Before, the ramjet and pic used to be too similar.)

I mean, you say that, but that is just not true... not in the slightest. Nevermind that they are MORE similar now, not less. The role of anti-heavy really should never fall on the ramjet. (and I'm still predicting how insanely annoying it will be for vehicles like the Light Tank to be harassed by Ramjets, as if they didn't have enough weapons that can harass them).

What about making ramjet still one kill inf but instead of insta kill you get knocked to say 50hp left and you bleed out over say 20secs (unless you get repped or pauses in a tank or refill)? That way its still likely to own people in field but would make it less harsh when you are trying to run to your tank or building to building when the hon/bar is down?

Thats an idea that really does not fit Renegade, if you'd ask me. Anyway, it doesn't need the one-hit kill, it never needed it. They can headshots. Againn, whyyyyyyyyyyyyy are people looking for compensation. Nobody even wants the 200 damage instant kill anyway, and the game does not need it. And trust me, this comes from a Ramjet lover who loves his one-hit kills.

Added bAllowWeaponDrop serversetting

Does this mean I might see SBH snipers on Tmx or EKT?

On that subject, I'd very much like an option along with weapon drops that removes stealth when you have certain weapons in your hands. Mostly, Sniper, Ramjet, PIC and Railgun.

They could still hide by not selecting them but they would instantly lose stealth when choosing them, so they'd have to make themselves seen before firing, and they would need to select their pistols again and wait 5 seconds to cloak.

I mean, its the only really annoying (even quite stupid) side of weapon drops. Stealth with instant shots weapons like this is too insane. But I otherwise love weapon drops, so thats why I think something like this should be considered.

[Truxa]

The ramjet gets discussed a lot. I don't get it. I was pretty sure it was agreed that the bodyshot damage should be like 150, the damage to light armor if reduced should still be in the realm of "effective", and the

weapon maybe should get something to make it worth 1k like that 30 damage to heavy armor or more ammo reserve than the 500.

Sniper hipfire spread, I think that's what sparks the most argument

I've read a couple replies on and off and I have to mention this:

the hipfire spread has increased, but is only noticeable on LONG DISTANCES! Not realy in CQC! Thats how I understand it from the Devs.

Now, the people whining about that are those who hipfire-snipe in the field, because that it whats nerved the most! (Looking at Gatsu)

Now, the damage nerf affects the CQC, because it will take 3 shots to the top-tier adversaries, to kill them. If I remember correctly, a Havoc/Sak and the likes have 250 health and 150 armor, totalling 400. Dealing 200 body damage (which is a free-class total health + armor) it needs to deal only 2 shots to any class and 1 to the free classes.

Hotwire has 200 health and 100 armor, totalling 300. It took 2 shots then and it will take 2 shots now.

So, for CQC, the ramjet has been nerved significantly versus other top-tier classes and free classes.

I think it would be more fair, to nerv the ramjet damage to characters to 180 only, instead of 150. That way, free classes wont get insta-killed (which is what you wanted to achieve) and other top-tier classes aren't that much more stronger(2 shots doesnt kill, but 40 lifepoints left are easier to take with pistol/carbine anyway)

In the end, ramjet is a sniper and snipers shouldnt be a first-pick for CQC, they should be used for long-range cover fire. But this nerv will make it harder to snipe-cover beacons against e.g. engineers.

Now, about those light vehicles. I feel that the ramjet is the "perfect" counter to those apache's and orca's roaming the skies. The only way to stop an air-assault is with a healthy mix of ramjets, PIC/Rail and a few volts.

Reason for me saying that, Ramjets for long-range cover, PIC/Rail for mid-range and volt for close range, but at that time, the orca/apache can hit you easily too. Hence the importance of long-range suppresion (dont let the enemy come close!)

Heavy armor damage? Realy? Why? Snipers are the chosen weapons versus characters and lights and should have no effect on heavy armor! I dont get that. "finishing" shots for retreating tanks isnt good enough if they turn around the corner ... No line-of-sight means no damage! So, that added feature is irrelevant.

Now, this topic WAS about the PRELIMINARY changelist and thats realy it! Preliminary!

To top it off, this list is long! Especially if you take into account that the last update was long overdue due to the crashing issues, this one came very fast in my opinion!

So, lets all be thankful for THAT instead of b%tching about a feature that needs to be tested in the field (pun intended)

Be grateful to be able to play this amazing game, free of charge. Developped by people who put their spare time in developping this game!

Thanks Devs for yet another GREAT UPDATE!

(PS: dont take away the ramjet, I like it too much )

[SFJake]

-snip-

-Just for the record, everyone has 100 health. Its just the armor that increase. So tier 3 have 350.

I think 3 shots on tier 3 is fair. It goes along with what you say, makes Mobius better at CQC, and makes the Ramjet long-range focused.

The ramjet can still headshot and kill instantly, so in that sense its potential wouldn't even change, you just need the skills to pull the shots. So that means its still insanely strong.

Besides, 150 damage per body shot in a team situation is incredibly useful. We're so used to how overpowered the ramjet are solo, but trust me, its not going to lack power, even at 150 damage.

[DoctorB0NG]

Added bAllowWeaponDrop serversetting

Does this mean I might see SBH snipers on Tmx or EKT?

Nothing has been decided for sure yet, but TmX is leaning towards keeping weapon drops disabled on our AoW server. While weapon drops are fun, we feel it further reinforces getting a tech/hotty only and doesn't give an incentive to play the other classes as much.

[Pyder02]

I'm seeing a few people suggesting removing ramjets, would you guys be open to that idea? I'm not sure how people who prefer snipers would feel about that, specifically talking to you Bananas.

The main reasons why ramjet's light armour damage was reduced was because it felt like an awkward solution that Westwood decided to use to balance them out. For example, why should a ramjet have a higher DPS against light armour than a railgun? Its something that can be confusing for new players, and the logic behind it is purely to have some counter when there wasn't one present.

I think this is the point that matters.

It is a little unrealistic that a sniper bullet does high damage to light vehicles (although one could argue that you can shoot the driver through the windshield of an unarmored vehicle or hit the gas tank of a helicopter like in a bad action movie...)

It is, however, utterly ridiculous to have a sniper bullet tear apart a heavy tank!

This is why I think the way you try to "balance" the ramjet is a really really bad way to go. I put "balance" in quotes, because it is a poor balance if you just make the ramjet a mediocre weapon against everything (infantery, light and heavy vehicles).

You should really try to stick to a rock-paper-scissors way of balancing: Sniper kills infantry, Armored Vehicles kill sniper, Railgun kills armored vehicles. Right now, railgun would be useless, because it does less dps to a mamoth tank than the ramjet. You should really think about that...

I like most of the other changes though. Great effort you guys put into that game

[SFJake]

Nothing has been decided for sure yet, but TmX is leaning towards keeping weapon drops disabled on our AoW server. While weapon drops are fun, we feel it further reinforces getting a tech/hotty only and doesn't give an incentive to play the other classes as much.

Depends, I know I always played it with good classes in hopes of getting even more versatility, or even just a repair gun for when I need one.

No matter the class, you can benefit from the drops. And if everyone went tech, there would be no good weapons to catch. You can't just count on getting the drops you want.

And considering the Carbine is already a ridiculous weapons that tech can normally get... (if nothing else, we need a global options for techs to be unable to get secondary weapons, bought or dropped, would that be fine? And that would be good for normal game balance, too)

I'd be really disappointed if literally the only AOW server played would not use this option thats been talked about since early beta. Hope EKT at least makes use of it. Marathon is a way better with drops.

(Marathon is also better with vehicle shells so you have a chance to steal vehicles you destroy but I don't know if thats ever going to happen)

I think this is the point that matters.

It is a little unrealistic that a sniper bullet does high damage to light vehicles

I don't think there is a point that could ever matter less than realism. In the fictional sci-fi crazy universe that is this game, imagine the bullets are so powerful they pierce light armor, and thats it. There's nothing realistic to think about it.

[RypeL]

Added bAllowWeaponDrop serversetting

Does this mean I might see SBH snipers on Tmx or EKT?

Nobody should want that. Not even devs So ya we actually havent thought about that thus far but now that you mentioned it we sure will add something against that.

Also we currently want the weapondrop option to not solely drop weapons. It can drop a 25% ammo resupply or a 50hp armor or health resupply (like the ones you can pick up in Black Dawn). So you can either get a weapon OR a resupply item OR nothing at all. Im personally not sure about ammo etc resupplys beeing dropped but if we will keep it will depend on your feedback.

[SFJake]

Just make some weapons unstealth when wielded and that would fix most of that issue.

I think there should always be a drop of something. Getting an unlucky roll of -nothing at all- is always a bit disappointing. Thats just me, though. Alternatively, just making them variables that the server can configure themselves is ideal. One could use only ammo-drops if they think thats fair but weapon drops aren't, etc.

[Pyder02]

I don't think there is a point that could ever matter less than realism. In the fictional sci-fi crazy universe that is this game, imagine the bullets are so powerful they pierce light armor, and thats it. There's nothing realistic to think about it.

It is about balance, not about realism. More than that, it is about intuitive balance. Of course you could make a pistol shoot rockets and a machine gun repair tanks. You could even make that scenario perfectly balanced if you adjusted prices.

But that would be just random nonsens (just like an anti tank sniper) that scares away new players who have no idea which weapon is good against what and get frustrated by the randomness.

[SFJake]

Its about balance, yes. But thats it. There is nothing non-sense about an anti-tank sniper. You play the game and you figure out very quickly. There's nothing else to it. Something like that doesn't scare anyone away.

And building games on the ideas that people are too dumb to play a bit and understand what the game does differently is the worse way to make a game.

And anti-tank guns do exist. The fact that a sci-fi version of a portable gun exists that pierces tank is not even surprising.

[A-Rodge]

Nobody should want that. Not even devs So ya we actually havent thought about that thus far but now that you mentioned it we sure will add something against that.

Also we currently want the weapondrop option to not solely drop weapons. It can drop a 25% ammo resupply or a 50hp armor or health resupply (like the ones you can pick up in Black Dawn). So you can either get a weapon OR a resupply item OR nothing at all. Im personally not sure about ammo etc resupplys beeing dropped but if we will keep it will depend on your feedback.

I am VERY interested in this mechanic. I would like to stress the discussion of health and ammo sustainability.

Good infantry players should be rewarded for their skill with these health/ammo drops. Instead, if you run out of ammo as patch or laser gunner while in the field, it's tough luck. Either suicide or run back to base.

Also, the above mentioned classes are nothing more than a mere annoyance when played offensively. They will run out of ammo and health far quicker than their credit justification would imply.

[RoundShades]

Nothing has been decided for sure yet, but TmX is leaning towards keeping weapon drops disabled on our AoW server. While weapon drops are fun, we feel it further reinforces getting a tech/hotty only and doesn't give an incentive to play the other classes as much.

Depends, I know I always played it with good classes in hopes of getting even more versatility, or even just a repair gun for when I need one.

That is a good point. It would do the OPPOSITE of buffing 24/7 Hotwire/Tech, if repair guns also dropped. Then, you would have the various 1ks and 500 sniper and SBH and Patch, with repairguns. Which at least isn't hotwires

[Handepsilon]

Nothing has been decided for sure yet, but TmX is leaning towards keeping weapon drops disabled on our AoW server. While weapon drops are fun, we feel it further reinforces getting a tech/hotty only and doesn't give an incentive to play the other classes as much.

Depends, I know I always played it with good classes in hopes of getting even more versatility, or even just a repair gun for when I need one.

That is a good point. It would do the OPPOSITE of buffing 24/7 Hotwire/Tech, if repair guns also dropped. Then, you would have the various 1ks and 500 sniper and SBH and Patch, with repairguns. Which at least isn't hotwires

SBH that repairs vehicles? Now I've seen everything...

[Ap2000]

And considering the Carbine is already a ridiculous weapons that tech can normally get... (if nothing else, we need a global options for techs to be unable to get secondary weapons, bought or dropped, would that be fine? And that would be good for normal game balance, too)

That would seem really awkward to me, singling out the tech classes as being the only ones that aren't allowed to buy weapons.

However, the carbine can definitely get a change of some kind. Why not just replace it with the standard machinegun of the soldier?

[Handepsilon]

And considering the Carbine is already a ridiculous weapons that tech can normally get... (if nothing else, we need a global options for techs to be unable to get secondary weapons, bought or dropped, would that be fine? And that would be good for normal game balance, too)

That would seem really awkward to me, singling out the tech classes as being the only ones that aren't allowed to buy weapons.

However, the carbine can definitely get a change of some kind. Why not just replace it with the standard machinegun of the soldier?

Because soldier itself exists in 0 price?

[boxes]

And considering the Carbine is already a ridiculous weapons that tech can normally get... (if nothing else, we need a global options for techs to be unable to get secondary weapons, bought or dropped, would that be fine? And that would be good for normal game balance, too)

That would seem really awkward to me, singling out the tech classes as being the only ones that aren't allowed to buy weapons.

I agree it's awkward and I didn't like the idea at first, but it's necessary for class balance. Advanced engineers are way too versatile given that they are able to purchase sidearms and effectively deal damage, as well as repair buildings, characters, and disarming c4s and superweapons. Oh, they can also take down buildings by themselves, or chuck lots of c4s on enemy vehicles as a last ditch effort or through sneaking.

[boxes]

Depends, I know I always played it with good classes in hopes of getting even more versatility, or even just a repair gun for when I need one.

That is a good point. It would do the OPPOSITE of buffing 24/7 Hotwire/Tech, if repair guns also dropped. Then, you would have the various 1ks and 500 sniper and SBH and Patch, with repairguns. Which at least isn't hotwires

SBH that repairs vehicles? Now I've seen everything...

SBH do everything

No seriously, that's all Nod would need. Late game, just 20 SBH with different guns going rambo on GDI and repairing each other in the process.

[Ap2000]

And considering the Carbine is already a ridiculous weapons that tech can normally get... (if nothing else, we need a global options for techs to be unable to get secondary weapons, bought or dropped, would that be fine? And that would be good for normal game balance, too)

That would seem really awkward to me, singling out the tech classes as being the only ones that aren't allowed to buy weapons.

However, the carbine can definitely get a change of some kind. Why not just replace it with the standard machinegun of the soldier?

Because soldier itself exists in 0 price?

Uh, what...?

I don't see what that has to do anything with being able to upgrade your horrible standard pistol.

[Handepsilon]

SBH do everything

No seriously, that's all Nod would need. Late game, just 20 SBH with different guns going rambo on GDI and repairing each other in the process.

Uh, no, someone still needs to mine, right?

[GatsuFox]

I'm still waiting on a reason why "RNG" hipfire with the sniper rifles is a good idea. Nobody has provided ANY reasoning why it would be a good idea yet all I keep reading is "it's just a little bit". I am still waiting. Why do the devs want to put random spread on everything in this game? What's next, random spread obelisks?

Added bAllowWeaponDrop serversetting

Does this mean I might see SBH snipers on Tmx or EKT?

Nobody should want that. Not even devs So ya we actually havent thought about that thus far but now that you mentioned it we sure will add something against that.

Also we currently want the weapondrop option to not solely drop weapons. It can drop a 25% ammo resupply or a 50hp armor or health resupply (like the ones you can pick up in Black Dawn). So you can either get a weapon OR a resupply item OR nothing at all. Im personally not sure about ammo etc resupplys beeing dropped but if we will keep it will depend on your feedback.

Weapon drops sound ok if and only if we get proper weapon bindings. However, supply drops sound amazing (I even had a thread about it). God damn do supply drops sound amazing. Will they make the original sound they made in Renegade's single player?

[Handepsilon]

I'm still waiting on a reason why "RNG" hipfire with the sniper rifles is a good idea. Nobody has provided ANY reasoning why it would be a good idea yet all I keep reading is "it's just a little bit". I am still waiting. Why do the devs want to put random spread on everything in this game? What's next, random spread obelisks?

Let me quote :

Seems like hip-fire inhibition is becoming the most controversial change. At this point, it's gonna make a topic of its' own.

I'm just going to make a speculation here. I'm not able to open RenX at the current moment to do my researchs and I certainly cannot play online without decent internet :

There is certainly some advantage of using and not using scope. I'm taking UT as an example. When you use scope, you'll get better look and bigger hitbox (at least the illusion will say that) to shoot at. But your view is limited, so you'll be unaware of the other things around you. Ignoring scope, and you'll get the exact opposite. You're aided with name ID when looking at someone, with the exception of UT3. So in case you have bad sight, you can still look for the ID.

RenX is currently like that, except the ID is replaced by recticles that moves for a sec or 2 depending on how stationary the target is, extended if you use Q. In fact, you can hold Q and scan for your target and hold it so you can determine where your target is. With this mechanic, the hip-shooter gets the advantage of being able to get target concentration and being able to become aware of your surroundings, while the scope only deals with the concentration. That means, with 100% accuracy all the time. It isn't too fair.

With spread, while forcing all people to scope, it gives both sides more fairness as they have more proportional advantages and disadvantages.

Of course, speculations. This may or may not be true. Just based on previous gaming experiences. I'd say give it a go first. Besides, the closed beta testing hasn't even commenced and auto-patch is about to become a thing now. If spread does hurt RenX, the dev can nullify it without waiting for months

@GatsuFox: I was/am a Quake and UT player aswell for many years. There i love my no scope railgun and i love my strafe jumping etc. But Ren-X isent Quake. It just makes no sense to compare Ren-X to Quake. Your best bet is to compare it to BF. And in BF there also is hip fire spread. Yes there is some RNG. People are dealing with it in games like BF just fine.

You were given the explanation that Havoc etc. right now are OP and unfair, for some more for some less. Something must be done.

And as a matter of fact, in Renegade it is really easy to hit something without having to use the scope. That's not as much of a problem for standard infantry, since one bullet doesn't do a lot of damage.

A Havoc/Sakura is basically a running OH-KO death machine with instant hits (hitscan).

I didn't want to say this at first, but since you kept going on about it, I am not sure why you're saying that it takes a lot of skill. Because playing the sniper classes, it takes NO skill at all to kill anything. Whenever I happen to pick up a sniper outfit from a crate I easily kill 5~7 people without breaking much of a sweat. No other class lets you do that.

Go play a sniper in a Battlefield game and you'll see how much different and difficult it is to play there.

I'm not saying Renegade is BF or should be BF, but I'm saying the snipers in Ren(X) are cheap and overpowered classes.

I kinda have to agree with the ease of sniping as well. Arena shooter games are about killing other players randomly mostly rather than complex strategy like RenX. My friend who rarely plays such games and instead go for CS styled games, says that it's waaaay too easy to snipe equipped with weapon recticle, and 100 accuracy all the time after I described how UT sniper works

We cannot use UT or Quake as reference since their movement systems are VERY acrobatic (at least UT is. I've only took some glance on Quake) while RenX with all its unrealistic features possesses more realistic movements which makes sniping much easier than UT

The only thing that keeps me from sniping right is mostly lags and I'm more CQB

It's because of certain game mechanics. As I mentioned in a previous post, most snipers have their noses glued to the walls. Not only can you see around walls while poking in and out, but you get a giant targeting box. The targeting box lasts FOREVER. I can play ring around the rosy because I always know where my enemy is. This gives snipers, rave/syds, and engis (with remotes) a huge advantage since they WILL know where the enemy is and what they do. This removes a huge element of how you deal with snipers in FPS. You kill snipers by outplaying them with movement. A common scenario in renegade is hiding behind a pillar from a sniper. In most games this would give you the advantage as you can close the gap and get the upper hand in surprising the sniper. You would force the sniper to take a quick shot at an unknown position and time. In renegade you get a targeting box that stays for a LONG time. A sniper in renegade can just watch when and where his enemy goes and time his shot accordingly. I can't even count how many kills I get this way. I intentionally lead people to corners and just lead the shot. Third person and targeting boxes GREATLY enhance snipers. I would laugh so hard at a test game where it's locked to first person with no targeting boxes. Snipers would be so much worse then.

tl dr : You might want to word it into 'any VALID reasoning'. 'cause I believe people has given some reasonings, directly or indirectly

[GatsuFox]

There was no argument on those posts into why RNG spread is a good idea for snipers. Learn to read, CWC. All I see is that snipers are overpowered, which is true. We all know that. Nobody is saying why having hip spread is a GOOD idea.

[Handepsilon]

Okay, translation of my speculation :

A guy who can shoot from faraway distance without scope aided with a targetting recticle around their target and still be able to see their surroundings has more advantage than a guy using scope who can see clearly where his target is but lacks awareness of his surroundings. As I said, adding hip spread will give snipers proportional advantages and disadvantages.

In other words, forcing to do a single style of sniping

[SFJake]

Am I the only one that always uses the scope for long-range sniping?

I mean, yes, I mostly quick-scope, I don't stay in scope because you move slow. But firing accurately without it at long distances (the kind I thought the hipfire nerf was for) without scope, I can't do that... they're a smudge on my screen, nevermind if I want to headshot.

In that sense, I don't see the nerf being very harsh, just needs a bit adaptation if you really love to no-scope long-distances so much.

The point being it doesn't do much, but it might cause an absolutely random frustration from the fact that your perfect long range no-scope shot just doesn't hit "just because".

It shouldn't personally hurt me, though, but I'm still against the change.

[Handepsilon]

Am I the only one that always uses the scope for long-range sniping?

I mean, yes, I mostly quick-scope, I don't stay in scope because you move slow. But firing accurately without it at long distances (the kind I thought the hipfire nerf was for) without scope, I can't do that... they're a smudge on my screen, nevermind if I want to headshot.

I don't know, Gatsu said in Page 3... (I think)

I don't scope. I played too much Quakelive so I can't scope and hit accurately. This nerf is HUGE for me and maybe some similar players.

[GatsuFox]

Okay, translation of my speculation :

A guy who can shoot from faraway distance without scope aided with a targetting recticle around their target and still be able to see their surroundings has more advantage than a guy using scope who can see clearly where his target is but lacks awareness of his surroundings. As I said, adding hip spread will give snipers proportional advantages and disadvantages.

In other words, forcing to do a single style of sniping

Scope vs unscope is subjective in terms of advantages. Scoping gives a constant higher accuracy while sniping while unscoped combat allows for dodging and awareness as a trade off of less accuracy. Which one is better is highly situational. Completely subjective in terms of "overall" better. I should know I am a pretty good guy in this game.

Adding hip spread now adds a roulette wheel into the equation. Now answer my question. Why is the roulette wheel in gameplay a good idea when peoples credits are on the line?

Let me rephrase: Do we want players to use their credits to the best of their abilities or do we want to gamble with the credits and have an arbitrary random element determine our fate with these credits?

I still have no answer. Instead of giving you a fill in the blank now I've given you a multiple choice question.

[Handepsilon]

I have a better option though, why not just learn to scope? CQB's unaffected as Dev says. So why not just learn to use that scope hanging around you rifle?

[GatsuFox]

I have a better option though, why not just learn to scope? CQB's unaffected as Dev says. So why not just learn to use that scope hanging around you rifle?

So instead of answering my question you're trying to attack me?

First off I can use the scope, doh. I'm like one of the best snipers in the game. Second off I think you mean CQC not CQB (what does that even mean dude), and it IS highly effected by the spread change. Getting a close shot at the head then it magically turns into a headshot IS NOT a good thing. It's not. It's rewarding bad aim. Also aiming FOR a headshot and missing because the spread says you don't get it is ALSO poor game design.

How can you not see this? I am literally baffled anyone can defend this mechanics change when its 100% negative towards the gameplay. It makes no sense and I still have no answer to my question.

[Handepsilon]

Don't take it as an attack. I'm simply giving a third option. I'm trying to keep this as friendly as possible

Anyway, I don't know, some people says it's CQB or CQC, so it's beside the point. Thing is, we still have no proof that such scenario would happen. We don't know if it would actually affect close combat. We only know that Devs say it doesn't and only affects long distance, and since right now only the Devs know what happened to the game, I'm just going to believe what they say for now, and wait for the beta testers to confirm.

As I said before, if it does hurt the game, they can nullify this spread with a patch. And since, I repeat, we don't know for sure yet, I think it's far too early to say that the spread will affect close combat as you pictured or not

[RypeL]

Gatsu we gave you a lot of reasons. The problem is you dont want to hear them. Spread is needed so that you have to use the scope. Yes you can still land lucky shots as in Any game with scope. youre making this sound like an argument bit it isent. Like if every spread shot would be a headshot. And if you get a lucky headshot once in a while while the guys using scope getting them all the time is the most normal thing on earth. That you only play one type of game (arena shooter) with no ads etc isent our problem. We heard you, we tried to discuss with you but you still keep saying the same things without giving new arguments. Your only argument is that spread is a no go. We explained you that many games have it so that you're argument is invalid unless you manage to explain why renx is more like quake then like any tactical shooter. I already told you that I think renx can not be compared to Quake in terms of movement and levels etc. So still you're argument for no spread remains totally invalid to me. If you still want to repeat yourself over and over again hoping that it will help save your play sstyle you should make a new thread for that as this thread I think has seen enough of this.

[Bananas]

Kind of weird seeing my post quoted as a reason for spread. I guess I can see how you could draw reasons from it though. Anyways, I tend to agree with gatsu about spread. I've already stated my opinion to the best of my ability though. Give the spread to testers and see what they think. It can always be reversed.

You seriously lost me at Carbine for a 1000$ class.

At least I lost you only near the end of my long post

I agree carbine isn't exciting. It just happens to fit what the devs seemed to want. Anyways none of this is finalized anyways.

[Handepsilon]

Kind of weird seeing my post quoted as a reason for spread. I guess I can see how you could draw reasons from it though.

No, it's only to back up my first quote about recticles. Your quote itself is not enough to be a single reason. If it was inaccurate for some reason, I apologize

[Ap2000]

There was no argument on those posts into why RNG spread is a good idea for snipers. Learn to read, CWC. All I see is that snipers are overpowered, which is true. We all know that. Nobody is saying why having hip spread is a GOOD idea.

I really could just copypaste what I wrote in response to you last time.

You got answers, you just don't want to accept them.

So instead of answering my question you're trying to attack me?

He wasn't attacking you at all, man.

CQB stands for Close Quarters Battle.

[Canucck]

Let me quote :

All of these are awful reasons.

Why are you/others pretending that scoping is somehow harder and more skilled? It's infinitely easier to hit someone while scoping, but you lose time. Or you could save time and not scope, but it's a bit harder of a shot. It's a trade off, that's fucking great. Why would you ever want to remove a legitimate trade off in favour of making a class more linear and boring? I'm getting flashbacks of HiRez balancing here.

The box has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's still there while scoped and your target is massive so it doesn't matter to begin with. If anything scoping makes it easier to control which player you want to keep the box on.

And comparing Ren to BF is probably one of more ridiculous things I've heard on these forums so far. Even renforums wasn't that dumb, and BF was actually decent back then, but still not similar to Ren at all. The similarities stop at "there are vehicles and infantry."

[Glacious]

I'm like one of the best snipers in the game.

Thats all I needed to hear on the subject

[Handepsilon]

And awareness, don't forget it. While scoping, you really are going to have no idea that a tank is coming from the side and has already got an aim on you

Okay, I admit, it's purely theoritical. I'm no sniper

But I never said that scoping is more skilled. I just said they got more disadvantages... in theory