Sidearms vs. Second primaries

[yosh56]

I've been seeing quite a bit of instances calling out some of the 'sidearms' as being OP or what not, and I honestly believe the Carbine especially is a bit too far up there in effectiveness to be a so-called supplementary weapon. Now, as much as the carbine/tib-weapons are called sidearms, last I checked, when I ever armed up in real-life, nobody ever issued me another rifle and called it a sidearm. Pistols, machine-pistols, maybe even compact SMGs are sidearms.

Now this is Renegade, a game where originally we could carry like 10 weapons and be fine, but from the looks of it the devs already wanted to decrease that to 2 real weapons tops (according to Black Dawn and even the current system). That's not necessarily a bad thing, and Id have been fine with even being able to carry infinite weapons. My main point is however, that sidearms should be sidearms (replace the pistol, are a bit better but not too hugely so) while weapons like the Carbine should be considered second primaries with either their own slot, or having to remove C4 to access it.

The heavy pistol is a pretty good example of a sidearm. It does quite a bit more damage than the silenced pistol per shot, and can do noticeable yet not too concerning damage to vehicles. It doesn't fire quite as fast, the projectile has travel time, and it has a smaller clip. Cool, this is a nice replacement if you happen to have the aim for it, and you know you'll be in the field where you might be able to pick off a low-health vehicle.so heavy pistol pro/con breakdown:

Pro

+Damage per shot higher

+ROF isn't too much worse

+Bit of damage to vehicles

Con

-Bit harder to aim due to bullet travel

-Range is still pretty bad compared to primary weapons

-Primary weapons can still kill faster due to rate of fire

Step up 50 credits and you've got the carbine masquerading as a sidearm. It has a decent scope, enough range to fight all the way from one end of the tunnel on Walls to the other, and oh right, is replacing the silenced pistol with a gun capable of being at least a tier 2 weapon. It can't damage heavy armour...what a burden when you're busy owning the tunnel war with remote c4 and you're 'sidearm'. The pros and con list for having a carbine vs. the silenced pistol:

Pro

+Automatic weapon with obvious rate of fire advantage

+Accurate when ADS, while still decently accurate from the hip

+Does almost the same damage as the silenced pistol per shot. (3-4 damage difference)

+Range is significantly higher than that of the pistol

+Is actually more silenced than the silenced pistol...by a lot.

+Can punish snipers you sneak up on with kind of rediculous headshot DPS

+Costs $125 which is easily affordable as long as you're not throwing money away.

Cons

-Barely any damage to heavy armour

-Clip is somewhat small, but rate of fire doesn't consume it rediculously fast

-Doesn't have infinite ammo

I don't think I need to get to the Tiberium weapons. I don't think they're OP at all stats-wise, but to be 'sidearms' they're a bit up there compared to what they replace.

What I'm pretty much looking at is if anyone agrees that actual sidearms should be what replaces the silenced pistol, vs. having all buyable weapons replace it. The heavy pistol is a sidearm. If the Tiberium Fletchette gun was nerfed some it could work as a sidearm. That would also give a better distinction between the Fletchette and the rifle, with one being a primary weapon and the other being an actual sidearm.

The main culprit that sparked this topic is of course engineers/technicians, as they're the ones who get the absolute most out of being able to carry a 'sidearm' instead of a silenced pistol. Their whole point is to be the support class with minimal to no offensive capability. Toss them a carbine or tib rifle and watch that philosophy go straight out the window.

Bottom line: Sidearms like the heavy pistol and maybe a nerfed Fletchette gun (or buffed machine pistol) should replace the silenced pistol. Alternate primaries should either be their own slot, or replace the C4/Grenade slot. Preferably the former, but the latter makes sense in enforcing the idea that you're just out to kill, not blow stuff up.

[Truxa]

I agree that the Carbine is a bit too OP for it to be a sidearm. For that reason, up the price to 250.

As for the tiberium rifles, well, capturing and holding the silo must have perks and a sidearm thats better than the standard one is quite nice. Or else the silo would be futile to fight for. The 1 extra credit tick isn't all that much in the end.

1 credit per sec extra --> 60 credits per minute --> 300 credits per 5 minutes --> 600 credits per 10 minutes --> 2400 credits for a 40 minute game assuming you hold it from the start to the end.

The credit generation for shooting infantry or tanks is higher than that. It's nice supplement at best, but assuming you die every 5 minutes, you spend half that amount on new sidearms. So yeah, silo = free sidearm upgrade + some additional credits. Must be good.

Besides, techs and engineers having to do the work to get the silo, should reward them with a sizeable sidearm. However, a simple free soldier class has this rifle which is better when aiming down the sights.

Suggestions to the carbine:

Increase price

Decrease rate of fire

Decrease bullet-travel (should make it harder to aim as you need to lead your target)

Set damage to the same as the pistol, or less even as the automatic fire should compensate for it

[yosh56]

Besides, techs and engineers having to do the work to get the silo, should reward them with a sizeable sidearm. However, a simple free soldier class has this rifle which is better when aiming down the sights.

The auto rifle comes out just barely any better than the carbine...and I mean JUST barely. We're talking 4 DPS difference kind of barely.

A sizeable sidearm is nice, yes (though there's not really much work involved in getting the silo), but still a rifle isn't a sidearm. As stated, this is less about any of the sidearms being OP, and more about the fact that there should be a difference between sidearms and buyable weapons that are often better than the primaries of 1st/2nd tier infantry. For instance, limit SBHs and Engineers to sidearm-type weapons, while more assault-type infantry can keep their sidearm and a second rifle if they so choose.

[RoundShades]

My opinion is the exact opposite. I agree the carbine is t2, and I feel it is broken right now, but that is because the variation is lacking and the price doesn't match the power.

My solution always was, make secondary weapons as various and customizable as primary weapons.

Primary weapons are attached to classes, and that is legacy and what the foundation of matchups is based on. Leave that pretty much as is.

Items are not secondary weapons and should be in the items slot. This includes beacons, airstrikes, emp nades, at mines, and these should even replace proxy c4 on a hotwire as currently, or timed c4 on all other classes. (from what I understand, proxy c4 replace timed c4 on a hotwire, and their special character slot contains 2 timed c4 unchangeable)

Secondary weapons should practically give you the option to make any customizable and hybrid character. Here are my ideas for possible secondaries, and can be used with any primary, possibly making a character's primary weapon a backup to the secondary:

-Carbine rifle, 250 creds, slightly less rate of fire but honestly is okay as is.

-Sharpshooter rifle, modeled after an m14 or m1garand, 300 credits, 30 damage a shot and 5 shots a clip and 20 ammo total carried and no bolt action but half the fire rate of marksman rifle. Has an accurate dot scope but no zoom.

-Heavy Pistol, 150 creds, has 7 rounds, 35 spare rounds, does 25 damage to inf., light armor, and heavy armor. Is pretty accurate, flexible, and good for anti-armor when bar/hon is down.

-Basic Repair Gun, 400 creds, is the engineer's repair gun as a secondary, because engineers can get carbines and heavy pistols and be better grenadiers and rifle infantry, so PICs should be able to spend even more cash and get a repair gun.

That way, any primary class, can have a complimentary secondary. A single fire class can have a carbine, an auto fire class can have a sharpshooter rifle, engineers can have anti-armor weapons in case their tank gets derelict, and PICs can have repair guns for their tanks.

The trick is, having a utility secondary to compliment every primary, and balance it by cost. It makes credits even more competitive to obtain and spend wisely so you never have spare lying around and can use it to fund the war effort.

The best part of setting it up like this, is that it benefits the 1000s classes with complimentary powerful secondaries, as well as the free infantry when the bar/hon is gone so they can spend hard earned credits on a variety of powerful weaponry to stay in the game.

Lastly, the suppressed pistol is a decent secondary already. In an infantry fight where you are low health is where it is used, and that is where everyone uses it, especially rifle classes. "Switch to your sidearm, it is faster than reloading". True even for silenced pistol to finish off 10% enemies when you are at a reload.

[Handepsilon]

Carbine turns ramjet characters into a powerful anti-infantry for all range. Speaking from experience

I think it does feel too powerful, even more effective than free infantry's rifle or McFarland/Chem. With such power and ability, it should have more price than the two basic anti-infantry class, considering the range too

Add those double-barreled shotgun too if you want more secondary variety (I think I saw one double-barrel shotgun in Call of Duty MW2's campaign (Hornet's Nest). It was single-arm weapon too)

[yosh56]

Just to clarify all of this, I had no intention of really wanting the Carbine changed so much with this topic, I was just emphasising that it seems too powerful to classify as a 'sidearm', and doesn't make sense for it to replace the pistol.

My main point was just that there should be a distinction between sidearms and second primaries. The distinction would be that sidearms (the a Heavy pistol, and maybe a better version of the near-useless Machine pistol) would replace the pistol. Weapons like the carbine are fine but they make no sense to replace the pistol, as it still let's classes, namely engineers, to keep ALL of their functionality AND be anti-infantry. Last I checked engineers/techs were supposed to be a support class. If they wanted additional firepower then make them give up something.

Assault classes carrying a second rifle to supplement their first makes a bit more sense, though still it sort of starts missing the point of having class selection. It's not 'as' bad though, so long as they have to give up like a timed C4 to hold it, as opposed to their pistol.

[Handepsilon]

They did give up something : money *trollface*

In all seriousness though, while they do replace the pistol, I don't really remember that it is classified as side-arms. The button says 'weapons'. You have a point though, it replaces pistol and gives additional function for a class (although Carbine IMO is bad for people that sprays rather than aim)

I think I'm gonna wait for the say from Dev about this

[epicelite]

I agree that the Carbine is broken, it can kill faster then more expensive weapons.

I think both sides should have unique sidearms. GDI can have the heavy pistol, and Nod should have a laser pistol. Only things that should be the same are the tiberium weapons.

I say we need a nice shotgun sidearm, just because I like shotguns and the only one in the game is awful.

Possible other side-grades that arent weapons could be like tiberium resistant boots, first-aid kit that you can use to heal yourself/allies, extra ammo. (But thats another thread.)

[Handepsilon]

My Carbine kills more than my Ramjet as Havoc, that's for sure

[yosh56]

Carbine is OP, but I still didn't make this topic for that. I just made it to point out that it seems like there should be a distinction between sidearms(which replace the pistol) and a second primary weapon (which would have to make you give up C4)

[vlatkozelka]

Carbine is OP, but I still didn't make this topic for that. I just made it to point out that it seems like there should be a distinction between sidearms(which replace the pistol) and a second primary weapon (which would have to make you give up C4)

I couldn't agree more , always felt like something was off with these , just didnt know what exactly till u pointed it out . I mean i would be a havoc and suddenly i see rain of tiberium pouring on me to death , and then i look up to find engineer was what slayed me ... just doesn't add up.

idk how a tib flechette or carbine can be considered sidearms , especially the tib gun wich is more effective against infantry than most anti-infantry primary weapons.

And the carbine is indeed more silent than anything in this game which beats the purpose of carying a silented gun.

[yosh56]

I couldn't agree more , always felt like something was off with these , just didnt know what exactly till u pointed it out . I mean i would be a havoc and suddenly i see rain of tiberium pouring on me to death , and then i look up to find engineer was what slayed me ... just doesn't add up.

idk how a tib flechette or carbine can be considered sidearms , especially the tib gun wich is more effective against infantry than most anti-infantry primary weapons.

And the carbine is indeed more silent than anything in this game which beats the purpose of carying a silented gun.

Indeed, I've never really felt like I was outgunned in a fight as an Engineer or Tech when I was carrying a Tib-rifle or flechette gun. Couple that with being able to keep both remotes timed and Proxy C4, and Techs start creeping up as the most cost-effective class you can play.

As a point towards OldRen, there was a very good reason why many drop-weapon servers incorporated the system where it would add a weapon to your inventory, but depending on what class you were would determine whether you could use it. SBHs generally could pick up, but couldn't use sniper rifles for instance. Engineers generally couldn't use anything beyond free weapons (Thought hat included the shotgun which was a bit odd). It varied from server to server, but the point is that some classes really get broken when they can suddenly keep all of their benefits AND suddenly compensate for their weaknesses.

On the same token, I feel like an opportunity to really differentiate the Flechette gun and the Tib-rifle lies here. Lower the magazine on the flechette gun and it essentially becomes a high-risk high reward sidearm with High rate of fire, great kill potential, but your accuracy has to be pretty phenomenal to really reap the benefits. Basically like what the devs seem to have been going for with the machine-pistol that's rarely used by any decent players. A good punisher weapon, but you can't really run through a competent group of players with it.

[Jack Brace]

I think the Tib Flechette is what makes Patch a worthy character, but the Side-arm version is OP, because everyone can be Patch-like... (easily surprise and:) Hit and run, do headshot bursts, chase down low health chars, as a side arm it has too many options.

Carbine has the same effect, it makes you like Officer class dps wise, taking it's spin up in consideration.