Gunplay issues: Bullet spread and ADS.

[GatsuFox]

So currently every automatic weapon has bullet spread unless you use the AIM DOWN SIGHTS function. This is terrible, as using AIM DOWN SIGHTS slows your movement speed drastically and it a TERRIBLE trade off in combat because you cannot toy with your opponent's aim well enough to prevent being tracked. Aim Down Sights in general just does not fit with this type of game and right now it's only hurting new players because it is incredibly bad to use it.

I wish to see that bullet spread was completely removed from the game, because dying from luck or not getting a kill because of lack of luck is just frustrating to any competitive player. The main aspect of a shooting game, which is to shoot people, shouldn't be a gamble every time. Right now you can reset bullet spread by using re-fire techniques but nobody should have to do that just to prevent some luck/unluck. Here would be some of my ideas to solve this issue I have with the game:

1. Remove bullet spread from all weapons, including shotgun types (make the "spread" a set pattern).

2. Slightly increase recoil (weapon rise/fall) so players need to control their mouse more for good accuracies. What might be a more fun mechanic is to have recoil ACCELERATE over time as you hold the fire button (to a cap of course), so when you let go the recoil will DECELERATE but not completely reset right away.

3. Make AIM DOWN SIGHTS increase WEAPON RANGE. Right now many of the guns have a set range, and a good way to make AIM DOWN SIGHTS useful at all is to have it increase weapon/bullet range. This way a skilled automatic user can take some combat against some more sniper angles.

4. In the case of the marksman, make AIM DOWN SIGHTS change it's bullet from projectile to hitscan? Or a damage increase? Hmm...

Otherwise I just love the fast paced Unreal Tournament type of combat in this game. I hope I get a response!

[SeriousPan]

That gun that Patch uses? I cannot aim down the sights for that thing. It's not that it's hard but the animation is trash and I hate it. Besides shooting from the hit means I hit anything with it anyway so I don't get it. I can't say I'm a fan of the ranges either but I can live with it I guess. But sometimes it can feel like the range on say, the soldiers AR is a tad short. But that's just me. I've learnt to adapt but it was a strange one.

I play in third person exclusively so having to aim down sights sometimes is hard and jarring. In games I enjoy when I aim down the sights in third person it just makes your reticle smaller and zooms in the camera a tiny bit which I think is better. But that's me.

[Sebqt]

You have my support. I dislike the bullet spread, too many variables against enemies that already move around so much.

Edit: To clarify: Remove spread, keep recoil, +range on ADS

Edited March 13, 2014 by Guest

[SFJake]

While recoil is a more skillful mechanic its also a really boring one. I don't support its increase.

Ironsights shouldn't slow movement, thats the only change I would do here. The game shouldn't even have ironsights, they should only exist to accommodate modern FPS guys.

Spread however in general, should definitely go away.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Guest

[Unit]

Remove recoil completely, reduce bullet spread (its not as bad as you make it out and has nothing to do with luck.. lol), remove iron sights altogether.

[GatsuFox]

Remove recoil completely, reduce bullet spread (its not as bad as you make it out and has nothing to do with luck.. lol), remove iron sights altogether.

I don't get this post.

Why do you want to remove the skill based gunplay (recoil which requires proper mouse control), keep the random gunplay (spread), and then not make use of something that's in the game and currently useless?

How does spread have nothing to do with luck? Are you serious? Pick an auto rifle infantry and try to get 100 headshots on a target FROM the bottom of walls flying middle TO the top without letting go of your mouse button. Can you do it?

[sarabi]

spread isn't particularly nasty in hip fire, in fact compared to pretty much every other game with spread it's positively tame. And frankly not needing to ADS is a fresh of breath air, leading to more frantic, entertaining fights where people are actively dodging and trying not to get hit.

[Canucck]

Remove recoil completely, reduce bullet spread (its not as bad as you make it out and has nothing to do with luck.. lol), remove iron sights altogether.

I don't get this post.

Why do you want to remove the skill based gunplay (recoil which requires proper mouse control), keep the random gunplay (spread), and then not make use of something that's in the game and currently useless?

How does spread have nothing to do with luck? Are you serious? Pick an auto rifle infantry and try to get 100 headshots on a target FROM the bottom of walls flying middle TO the top without letting go of your mouse button. Can you do it?

It doesn't have anything to do with skill. The recoil changes the way the game was played compared to the original and screws the infantry balance. Renegade is a high TTK game, while recoil is a mechanic used to artificially increase the TTK for games where it's already very low (cod/bf). All this change does is make infantry combat a lot slower while indirectly buffing spread/splash weapons and making the game more vehicle focused.

The TTK is high enough that if you can't track and move properly you're not going to be able to kill anything anyway, stacking recoil on top of that is just overkill and pandering to current trends that have no place in this type of game. Same for ADS/slow... these features feel like they were thrown in "just because" and with very little thought put into how they would impact the original gameplay.

(The OP suggestions sound worse than what is ingame now though)

[Unit]

Remove recoil completely, reduce bullet spread (its not as bad as you make it out and has nothing to do with luck.. lol), remove iron sights altogether.

I don't get this post.

Why do you want to remove the skill based gunplay (recoil which requires proper mouse control), keep the random gunplay (spread), and then not make use of something that's in the game and currently useless?

How does spread have nothing to do with luck? Are you serious? Pick an auto rifle infantry and try to get 100 headshots on a target FROM the bottom of walls flying middle TO the top without letting go of your mouse button. Can you do it?

are you kidding me really? this is command and conquer not battlefield 5. the gunplay is nothing even remotely similar to all the modern shooters that seem increasingly intent on making your desk look like a airplane runway with drag marks because you have to relentlessly pull the stupid mouse down.

The original renegade had no recoil or iron sights and was perfect with that, and i dare you to claim it was pure luck that anyone could kill each other then too. It was still based on skill and mouse control in more than just the verticle axis (I suggest you actually go and play the original game) the implementation of iron sights and recoil can only have been done to appease players such as yourself, its a modernisation this game simply doesnt need. as such is with 'airstrikes' and goddamn hand thrown grenades.

as i said, the spread isnt nearly as bad as you are going on about, if you aim for the head, you will hit the head, unless you are shooting from very far away at which point few soldiers on the planet has absolute perfect accuracy at such ranges even with an iron sight.

[GatsuFox]

Remove recoil completely, reduce bullet spread (its not as bad as you make it out and has nothing to do with luck.. lol), remove iron sights altogether.

I don't get this post.

Why do you want to remove the skill based gunplay (recoil which requires proper mouse control), keep the random gunplay (spread), and then not make use of something that's in the game and currently useless?

How does spread have nothing to do with luck? Are you serious? Pick an auto rifle infantry and try to get 100 headshots on a target FROM the bottom of walls flying middle TO the top without letting go of your mouse button. Can you do it?

are you kidding me really? this is command and conquer not battlefield 5. the gunplay is nothing even remotely similar to all the modern shooters that seem increasingly intent on making your desk look like a airplane runway with drag marks because you have to relentlessly pull the stupid mouse down.

The original renegade had no recoil or iron sights and was perfect with that, and i dare you to claim it was pure luck that anyone could kill each other then too. It was still based on skill and mouse control in more than just the verticle axis (I suggest you actually go and play the original game) the implementation of iron sights and recoil can only have been done to appease players such as yourself, its a modernisation this game simply doesnt need. as such is with 'airstrikes' and goddamn hand thrown grenades.

as i said, the spread isnt nearly as bad as you are going on about, if you aim for the head, you will hit the head, unless you are shooting from very far away at which point few soldiers on the planet has absolute perfect accuracy at such ranges even with an iron sight.

What? All I'm asking for is removal of bullet spread, but compensate with more recoil. The aim down sight function is already in the game why not make it USEFUL? You're not making any sense. You want to keep the random aspect of fighting but you don't want the skill based one? I just don't get it.

I did play the original game and that game had WAY less bullet spread, especially on the LG/shaft. I don't remember having to re-fire every fucking 10 bullets to actually have the bullets go anywhere near where my crosshair is pointing.

Remove recoil completely, reduce bullet spread (its not as bad as you make it out and has nothing to do with luck.. lol), remove iron sights altogether.

I don't get this post.

Why do you want to remove the skill based gunplay (recoil which requires proper mouse control), keep the random gunplay (spread), and then not make use of something that's in the game and currently useless?

How does spread have nothing to do with luck? Are you serious? Pick an auto rifle infantry and try to get 100 headshots on a target FROM the bottom of walls flying middle TO the top without letting go of your mouse button. Can you do it?

It doesn't have anything to do with skill. The recoil changes the way the game was played compared to the original and screws the infantry balance. Renegade is a high TTK game, while recoil is a mechanic used to artificially increase the TTK for games where it's already very low (cod/bf). All this change does is make infantry combat a lot slower while indirectly buffing spread/splash weapons and making the game more vehicle focused.

The TTK is high enough that if you can't track and move properly you're not going to be able to kill anything anyway, stacking recoil on top of that is just overkill and pandering to current trends that have no place in this type of game. Same for ADS/slow... these features feel like they were thrown in "just because" and with very little thought put into how they would impact the original gameplay.

(The OP suggestions sound worse than what is ingame now though)

You just say they're worse but you don't explain why.

IF bullet spread was removed and there was no recoil mechanic then this game would be too easy.

IF bullet spread was removed and there was the same recoil mechanic then it'd be OK

IF bullet spread was removed and there was a more advanced recoil mechanic then it'd actually take WORK to kill people.

Time to Kill is not very high in this game at all. It's like 2 or 3 seconds, that's nothing. TTK is only higher when you have two players doing long range combat and that's because the spread makes it difficult to track and kill another player.

You guys think I'm suggesting to change this game into battlefield or some crap, but I'm actually suggesting it to be more like... you know... Quake, UT, or Tribes.

[Canucck]

I'm suggesting that the game should be like Renegade

[Unit]

I'm suggesting that the game should be like Renegade

[R315r4z0r]

I don't get why so many people have problems with the ADS. It's completely worthless. I don't bother with it and I still kill people just as easily as I did in Renegade. It's so minor that I don't even notice it let alone have to compensate for it.

While I don't think ADS should slow you down unless you're in a sniper scope, I don't think you need to ADS in the first place unless you like doing it because of how it looks.

[GatsuFox]

I don't get why so many people have problems with the ADS. It's completely worthless. I don't bother with it and I still kill people just as easily as I did in Renegade. It's so minor that I don't even notice it let alone have to compensate for it.

While I don't think ADS should slow you down unless you're in a sniper scope, I don't think you need to ADS in the first place unless you like doing it because of how it looks.

Did you read the thread? I proposed to make ADS *worthwhile*, as a tool to help combat snipers or other long range combat at certain distances/angles.

I'm suggesting that the game should be like Renegade

Sure, but why are you against my suggestions so much? You still haven't explained that at all. Removing spread would make it MORE like renegade. I'm not suggesting to slow the game down at all, I'm actually suggesting to make it faster and more skill based.

Do you want this game to be a 1:1 copy of renegade? I don't. I like the sprinting, I like the IDEA of new side arms (not so powerful), I like the IDEA of airstrikes (not so powerful), I like the new animations for character models, I like a lot of the new sound effects. Does everything have to be the same? I mean as long as the core gameplay and combat are still there, does it have to be the same?

Recoil is just a way to prevent 100% headshots if there was no weapon spread. Right now recoil is almost non existent and any casual CS player can compensate for it 95% without even thinking.

[SFJake]

Why should aiming and shooting be annoying instead of not? I always hated recoil. Aiming should be hard because things move fast and the head isn't a big target (both are true in Renegade). Recoil just gets in the way of people shooting and forces them to handle their mouse in awkward ways and why? To "add more skill" in such a way is nothing but annoying, but I'm one that considers Counter-Strike to have the worst shooting mechanics ever.

[R315r4z0r]

Did you read the thread? I proposed to make ADS *worthwhile*, as a tool to help combat snipers or other long range combat at certain distances/angles.

I'm saying nothing needs to be done about it. It doesn't take away from the game nor does it give it anything. There isn't much reason to have it but no much reason to take it away. I like it for it's visual effect and the occasional close range attack.

...recoil just gets in the way of people shooting and forces them to handle their mouse in awkward ways and why? To "add more skill"...

It's not to add more skill. There is no skill in random pot shots. It's to give feedback to players who are trying to use a weapon at a range it's not meant for. At least that's how I'd describe it's implementation in a game like this. It's a more practical solution to having fixed bullet travel distances.

Sure the bullets do abruptly disappear after a certain distance, but it's well beyond the effective range of the weapon in question.

A lot of the time you can't tell if your shots are hitting the target at the edge of your range. So with recoil, if you're having a tough time keeping your aim fixed on your target, you most likely are out of their range so you should stop wasting your ammo.

[GatsuFox]

Why should aiming and shooting be annoying instead of not? I always hated recoil. Aiming should be hard because things move fast and the head isn't a big target (both are true in Renegade). Recoil just gets in the way of people shooting and forces them to handle their mouse in awkward ways and why? To "add more skill" in such a way is nothing but annoying, but I'm one that considers Counter-Strike to have the worst shooting mechanics ever.

Aiming isn't hard in this game if there was no recoil. It's fast paced but a good player can hit MOST shots against a good dodger. I think it's more of a hitbox issue (its really large) than a speed issue, though.

[Blade]

The spread is so low it's laughable. So, stop whining.

[GatsuFox]

The spread is so low it's laughable. So, stop whining.

Why should it be in the game at all?

And I wouldn't call it laughable at all, it is literally impossible to hit headshots on a 40ft range target on full auto.

[Canucck]

There was very minor spread on autos in Renegade, but it's definitely higher in X

[R315r4z0r]

The spread is so low it's laughable. So, stop whining.

Why should it be in the game at all?

And I wouldn't call it laughable at all, it is literally impossible to hit headshots on a 40ft range target on full auto.

Because you're not supposed to. Move in closer.

[GatsuFox]

The spread is so low it's laughable. So, stop whining.

Why should it be in the game at all?

And I wouldn't call it laughable at all, it is literally impossible to hit headshots on a 40ft range target on full auto.

Because you're not supposed to. Move in closer.

I am just getting trolled. Why should random spread be present in a shooting game?

[R315r4z0r]

I'm not trolling you. I'm saying you're using what might be a 30ft range weapon on a target at 40ft. The spread makes it hard for you to hit stuff outside of the intended range. Move closer and the spread will suddenly not matter anymore.

Like I said a few posts back, there is the physical range of a weapon where the bullet will just abruptly disappear. But there is, more importantly, the effective range of the weapon, which is how far away you can effectively hit your target.

It's a more practical way to balance weapon ranges.

[zakedodead]

Hey guys lets turn this into BF/CoD/Blacklight/PS2 where recoil shoots your screen into the sky.

No. Recoil is one of the dumbest ways to introduce "skill" into an FPS. All it does is make people adjust their mouse sensitivity and pull down when shooting, it makes killing people take even longer than it already does, it isn't a fun game mechanic to play with (games are about fun you know, not just being able to compensate for annoying game mechanics), it fucks up weapon balances (snipers/shotguns/grenade launchers/railguns/pics would get a big buff and all the automatic weapons would be fucked), and aiming is already hard enough just because the overall speed of renegade x is fast enough. I honestly think aiming should be easier than in the current build, because automatics/flamers are at a complete disadvantage to slower, harder hitting weapons.

[GatsuFox]

Hey guys lets turn this into BF/CoD/Blacklight/PS2 where recoil shoots your screen into the sky.

No. Recoil is one of the dumbest ways to introduce "skill" into an FPS. All it does is make people adjust their mouse sensitivity and pull down when shooting, it makes killing people take even longer than it already does, it isn't a fun game mechanic to play with (games are about fun you know, not just being able to compensate for annoying game mechanics), it fucks up weapon balances (snipers/shotguns/grenade launchers/railguns/pics would get a big buff and all the automatic weapons would be fucked), and aiming is already hard enough just because the overall speed of renegade x is fast enough. I honestly think aiming should be easier than in the current build, because automatics/flamers are at a complete disadvantage to slower, harder hitting weapons.

Recoil only serves a purpose against players with great aim who have a ton of mouse control from hitting constant head shots in every fight. Recoil is there for players who hit an accuracy of 40% or higher from easily killing other players. Headshots should be awarded from having proper mouse control, not by simply tracking a players head in this game. This game is pretty easy to track other players, I think it's fast enough but the hitboxes are too large for really effective dodging vs. a good aimer.

I think many of you are just completely ignorant to how good a player can aim. Aim like Toxjc/toxic from Quake isn't super uncommon. I'm a "good" aimer, by far from the best, and I can hit atleast 70% accuracy to the head right now in close quarters combat because the dodging is too unreliable (huge hitboxes) and there are no obstacles preventing me from doing so aside from random spread at certain ranges. Spread is almost nullified from "re-fire" tactics with many guns, but some guns it does not work. The only change I really ask for is removal of random weapon spread (especially on the lightning gun/LG/SHAFT/volt automatic rifle) and to compensate you NEED a mechanic that prevents a good player from absolutely slaughtering people in this game and recoil would serve that purpose just fine.

My suggestion for IRON SIGHTS is to not make it like call of duty or whatever modern FPS you guys choose hate, it is just to make it a useful mechanic in the game since it already exists and it is currently worthless than worthless. It has a semi-use for the shotgun which is to quickly use the iron sights to reduce the spread then go back to dodging ASAP. My suggestion is only saying to increase the bullet range of weapons so that you actually have an option against the most powerful anti-infantry class in the game: snipers. With this change you could cover their angles a bit or harass, this way snipers don't have a free pass to take out every infantry on the ground so easily.

I'm not trolling you. I'm saying you're using what might be a 30ft range weapon on a target at 40ft. The spread makes it hard for you to hit stuff outside of the intended range. Move closer and the spread will suddenly not matter anymore.

Like I said a few posts back, there is the physical range of a weapon where the bullet will just abruptly disappear. But there is, more importantly, the effective range of the weapon, which is how far away you can effectively hit your target.

It's a more practical way to balance weapon ranges.

And this guy is STILL trolling.

You think weapon balance should be a roulette wheel backed by theory crafting? Makes no sense. Effective range should be projectile speed NOT random spread. Effectively hitting your target should be determined by skill of both parties: Aim and dodging.

It is an extremely lazy and impractical way to "balance" weapon ranges. It's even worse than a damage drop off mechanic.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Guest

[zakedodead]

Hey guys lets turn this into BF/CoD/Blacklight/PS2 where recoil shoots your screen into the sky.

No. Recoil is one of the dumbest ways to introduce "skill" into an FPS. All it does is make people adjust their mouse sensitivity and pull down when shooting, it makes killing people take even longer than it already does, it isn't a fun game mechanic to play with (games are about fun you know, not just being able to compensate for annoying game mechanics), it fucks up weapon balances (snipers/shotguns/grenade launchers/railguns/pics would get a big buff and all the automatic weapons would be fucked), and aiming is already hard enough just because the overall speed of renegade x is fast enough. I honestly think aiming should be easier than in the current build, because automatics/flamers are at a complete disadvantage to slower, harder hitting weapons.

Recoil only serves a purpose against players with great aim who have a ton of mouse control from hitting constant head shots in every fight. Recoil is there for players who hit an accuracy of 40% or higher from easily killing other players. Headshots should be awarded from having proper mouse control, not by simply tracking a players head in this game. This game is pretty easy to track other players, I think it's fast enough but the hitboxes are too large for really effective dodging vs. a good aimer.

My saying aiming should be easier did not come from me lacking the ability to aim, it comes from the fact that automatics are already at a massive disadvantage (against infantry, at least) all recoil does is make slow but hard hitting guns more powerful than they already are.

What do you gain from amping up the recoil? You frustrate people who don't like it (you can say it adds skill all you want but what skill it does add is shallow as hell). The type of skill recoil adds doesn't come from any sort of gameplay depth, it just comes from turning up your mouse sensitivity. Whoop de fucking do look how good I am I can pull my mouse down.

[GatsuFox]

Hey guys lets turn this into BF/CoD/Blacklight/PS2 where recoil shoots your screen into the sky.

No. Recoil is one of the dumbest ways to introduce "skill" into an FPS. All it does is make people adjust their mouse sensitivity and pull down when shooting, it makes killing people take even longer than it already does, it isn't a fun game mechanic to play with (games are about fun you know, not just being able to compensate for annoying game mechanics), it fucks up weapon balances (snipers/shotguns/grenade launchers/railguns/pics would get a big buff and all the automatic weapons would be fucked), and aiming is already hard enough just because the overall speed of renegade x is fast enough. I honestly think aiming should be easier than in the current build, because automatics/flamers are at a complete disadvantage to slower, harder hitting weapons.

Recoil only serves a purpose against players with great aim who have a ton of mouse control from hitting constant head shots in every fight. Recoil is there for players who hit an accuracy of 40% or higher from easily killing other players. Headshots should be awarded from having proper mouse control, not by simply tracking a players head in this game. This game is pretty easy to track other players, I think it's fast enough but the hitboxes are too large for really effective dodging vs. a good aimer.

My saying aiming should be easier did not come from me lacking the ability to aim, it comes from the fact that automatics are already at a massive disadvantage (against infantry, at least) all recoil does is make slow but hard hitting guns more powerful than they already are.

What do you gain from amping up the recoil? You frustrate people who don't like it (you can say it adds skill all you want but what skill it does add is shallow as hell). The type of skill recoil adds doesn't come from any sort of gameplay depth, it just comes from turning up your mouse sensitivity. Whoop de fucking do look how good I am I can pull my mouse down.

Automatics are not at any disadvantage since they offer very reliable high damage at a lot of ranges, except the awful chain gun. If you remove the random spread then automatics would be nearly BROKEN since the head hitbox is so huge. Recoil is to counter act headshot spam, that's its only purpose. It does add mouse control skill to the game since you have to ADD the compensation against a dodgers left, right, and up and down (from jumping) movement, so it's not as shallow as you think. You're thinking way too one dimensional in terms of combat situations. Yeah recoil is annoying but can you think of a better mechanic to prevent headshot spam?

[Bananas]

Shotguns seem to need their spread tweaked. Sometimes I have the crosshair directly over the enemy and get little damage. Other times the enemy will be almost out of the crosshair and it does 75% of their life.

I'm not completely against random spread, but the shotgun just feels very unrewarding. Getting kills with it makes me feel more lucky than skillful.

[Blade]

Shotguns seem to need their spread tweaked. Sometimes I have the crosshair directly over the enemy and get little damage. Other times the enemy will be almost out of the crosshair and it does 75% of their life.

I'm not completely against random spread, but the shotgun just feels very unrewarding. Getting kills with it makes me feel more lucky than skillful.

I blame: LAG!

[disorder]

I thought in RL that all guns spread by basically having recoil, so they are linked. That is my understanding. You get recoil on all guns but it's only the autos (full or burst) when you hold down the trigger while the remaining time is you reacquiring the target after the gun has jumped from its original aiming point.

A bullet can deviate based on weather/wind/gravity of course.. but those things are not all modelled. And you holding onto the weapon and it's weight along with breathing can add sway. but that isn't really modelled either?

Spread is a fake idea of computer gaming to emulate real recoil. SOOOO

Remove fake bullet spread and just have a small amount of recoil that as well as jolting upwards also jumps slightly left or right randomly and make it a sliding scale that gets more noticeable on higher calibre full auto weapons(when holding the trigger) and less on single shot/small calibre weapons(or when single tapping).

Large cals are prolly snipers and the guns they use on buggies/apcs etc, and the upgraded pistol

medium cals prolly around the infantry assault

small cals are pistols, smg upgrade thing, shotgun pellets etc

[Blade]

I thought in RL that all guns spread by basically having recoil, so they are linked. That is my understanding. You get recoil on all guns but it's only the autos (full or burst) when you hold down the trigger while the remaining time is you reacquiring the target after the gun has jumped from its original aiming point.

A bullet can deviate based on weather/wind/gravity of course.. but those things are not all modelled. And you holding onto the weapon and it's weight along with breathing can add sway. but that isn't really modelled either?

Spread is a fake idea of computer gaming to emulate real recoil. SOOOO

Remove fake bullet spread and just have a small amount of recoil that as well as jolting upwards also jumps slightly left or right randomly and make it a sliding scale that gets more noticeable on higher calibre full auto weapons(when holding the trigger) and less on single shot/small calibre weapons(or when single tapping).

Large cals are prolly snipers and the guns they use on buggies/apcs etc, and the upgraded pistol

medium cals prolly around the infantry assault

small cals are pistols, smg upgrade thing, shotgun pellets etc

The spread is totally fine. As you said, the game does not model wind and stuff, why not just keep it simple?

It's an arcady game after all. + buggies/apcs having high recoil is just silly.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

I guess all the weapons need tweaking. But what is this game going for? Is it trying to make Renegade more realistic with more realistic weapon handling? I think it is, thats why theres ADS and actual recoil, unlike original renegade which had simple bullet spread algorithms on some weapons, like the assault rifle.

So... think of original renegade. Picture how the weapons worked. Now try adding in ADS. The only ADS renegade had was sniper scopes, which we're pretty useless because the only thing they did was make you move way too slow.

If ADS is going to be implemented into this game, well, then all the weapons need to be tweaked so that they "feel" more realistic, in that, hey! Your firing a fucking gun, and since all the character classes seem to resemble normal human beings as soldiers, depending on the weapon itself theres going to be some or alot of kick back after each shot is fired.

"SHORT, CONTROLLED, BURSTS".

Now, if there was a character class depicted as "stronger" than a normal human, maybe the recoil wouldn't be so prevalent because his arms are stronger.

I don't see any character like that in Ren X. All I see are soldiers, normal human soldiers.

I like fluff accurately represented in game mutherfucker!

Anyways, Theres alot of work to be done on all these added mechanics I guess.

I have found ADS to be kind of useful in Ren X. Basically, the only time I use it, I enable toggle ADS, and, when in firefights, strafing around like a mad man on waaaaaaaaay too much cocaine, if I think the enemy isn't aiming directly at me, I'll toggle to ADS and fire off ONE burst, then leave ADS. Like for a split second, I'm in ADS mode. I might fire off two bursts, but honestly, anymore and you're a sitting duck. Like everyone else is saying.

Oh, and the weapon I'm using in the aforementioned play through would be the Assault Rifle.

[SFJake]

Stop using drugs and stop suggesting terrible things.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

LOL SFJake you crack me up. Now where did I put that crack pipe.... Ahhh there it is.

tl;dr, Currently, this game has a half assed recoil mechanic for some of it's guns, and so the guns have ADS.

But if the game wants to go down this route of semi realistic weapon functions, if the game wants to represent how a real soldier handles a weapon, this half assed recoil, ADS, etc wont do. Might as well can all that shit and stick to the original Renegade had. No recoil, no nothing, just figure out how the weapon shoots it's projectiles and aim accordingly.

SFJake you need to get some fucking drugs in your system NOW boy. It's time you grew up. Arcade games are way funner when your drunk. Strafing and bunny hoping like a boss was never better on bathsalts and peyote.

[Blade]

It doesn't want to be realistic. It wants to KILL Renegade. Just watch the damn April Fools' Trailer. It's perfectly describes this project.

Don't mind the trolling. I just don't know how to grasp the stupidity.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

April fools? Oh man I gotta see this.

lol. You saying I'm trolling or you are?

I'm not exactly trolling. I'm just saying if the recoil and aim down sights stays in this game, well, fuck man. It definitely needs some fine tuning. I don't even know if original Unreal Tournament has aim down sights.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see it implemented as well as more new features, but I'm gunna go with SFJake, also known as the Puritan - you might as well just get rid of it.

SIXTY NINE POSTS MUTHAFUCKAH. LEZ GET IT ON.

(as of this post)

[Canucck]

The only ADS renegade had was sniper scopes, which we're pretty useless because the only thing they did was make you move way too slow.

Everyone had a generic zoom, it had no impact on accuracy/etc. And lol if you think snipers were too slow/useless in zoom.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

They were practically useless, unless you were really, really REALLY far away and the chances of enemies seeing you were slim to buckus. The scope made your character move alot slower, basically walking speed (like when you hold shift in olde renegade)

Most of the time though, its tunnel fights.

There was no generic zoom. Only the sniper and ramjet had scopes.

[GatsuFox]

Here's a vid I made as an example of the SHAFT/VoltAutoRifle spread. This is just ridiculous. Look how much it fans out near the end (You can't see all of it because youtube) but I mean at any range greater than 5m it's impossible to hit 100% accuracy on a STILL target. For 1000 credits this weapon should have ZERO spread and it's usefulness should be determined by a players tracking accuracy. In return it shouldn't be able to headshot or something.

It's not fun missing shots because the game told me so.

[SFJake]

In return it shouldn't be able to headshot or something.

I was on your side and then you pulled the dumbest of things.

[GatsuFox]

In return it shouldn't be able to headshot or something.

I was on your side and then you pulled the dumbest of things.

The LG deals massive damage. 10 damage per bullet. That just destroys people. It takes about 5 seconds to drain it's entire magazine... that's 1000 damage in 5 seconds. It's absurd.

If it had no spread then maybe its headshot damage should be lowered. It's 20 right now, right? Can you imagine if it had no spread and someone hit a 70% accuracy on your head? You'd die so damn fast that there'd be almost nothing you can do. Dodge all you want.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Guest

[yosh56]

Not going to lie, the VAR having spread is still one of those design choices that makes me wonder if the devs were lighting up while making this every once in awhile. I guess they had SB hunting in mind, and a bit of spread makes that job easier, but not so much that we need THAT much spread.

Also, I don't think Gatsu meant that the VAR couldn't headshot.. I'm pretty sure he meant that it should be like they have the shotgun now wheres there's no added damage. If anything, I wouldn't mind the headshot damage getting a bit of a nerf if we did go back to 100% accuracy.

[Blade]

OP ass nade launchers are gud enuff for hunting dem SBH's.

The Volt Auto is fine like this. You are just not supposed to hold that trigger and blazeitfgt. The damage it does is just huge. YOU adjust to the weapon, we are not in Soviet Russia.

[GatsuFox]

OP ass nade launchers are gud enuff for hunting dem SBH's.

The Volt Auto is fine like this. You are just not supposed to hold that trigger and blazeitfgt. The damage it does is just huge. YOU adjust to the weapon, we are not in Soviet Russia.

So to get 100% accuracy I should only hold it for 0.5 seconds (first 12 or 15 rounds) once every second? Refire does not work as well with the shaft as it does with other automatics, it takes a really long time for it to go back to 100% accuracy for some reason. You say it's fine like this but you give no reasons or examples why. I'd like to hear your reasons why it's a good thing that a gun is randomly inaccurate in an arcade FPS.

[Blade]

You want a weapon which deals decent damage to everything except buildings and is dead accurate? It's strong enough as it is.

[SFJake]

God, what is it with people that don'T fucking care about the spirit of such games in the first place.

The Volt rifle is crippled because of its range in the first place. Why the hell do you see it being completely accurate so "broken"? If I'm actually skilled enough, people die so quick the accuracy doesn't have the time to change and vehicels, well, you don't need it.

So exactly what difference would it make for BALANCE? The only difference it makes is that if you miss a bit too much, and hold it, it doesn't become luck based.

There's no reason for the stupid ass spread over time in a game that understands the beauty of freedom of movement and the more arcade-like gameplay.

[Terekhov]

Just kill spread, and make hitboxes smaller.

Oh and for the sake of all that is holy, nerf grenadier damage.

[GatsuFox]

Just kill spread, and make hitboxes smaller.

Oh and for the sake of all that is holy, nerf grenadier damage.

Agreed on the first part but...

No! Buff flamethrower instead!

[RoundShades]

Remove recoil completely, reduce bullet spread (its not as bad as you make it out and has nothing to do with luck.. lol), remove iron sights altogether.

I don't get this post.

Why do you want to remove the skill based gunplay (recoil which requires proper mouse control), keep the random gunplay (spread), and then not make use of something that's in the game and currently useless?

How does spread have nothing to do with luck? Are you serious? Pick an auto rifle infantry and try to get 100 headshots on a target FROM the bottom of walls flying middle TO the top without letting go of your mouse button. Can you do it?

He pretty much described Renegade, how didn't it work there? Theoretically, by comparison, you describe Call of Duty? Besides sales, that gets so much actual praise in discussion about it...

Being unbiased, spread needs less, range needs longer slightly in general, ads might should add range even atop of that as well as reduce recoil but still continue to slow speed.

I say that because the spread is wider than it really needs be and reduces a lot of damage on some guns that don't make sense, that ads is only useable at low damage at extreme ranges on any gun accurate or not because of it's kick so it should at least land bullets farther away, and that a lot of the ranges feel just short of useful given a lot of the terrain distances in islands and hourglass.

Honestly, I would accept any fix in that direction. Whether reduce spread or preferably increase weapon default range, and preferably increase ADS range bonus or just decrease recoil. Doesn't have to be all 4 I suppose.

Just kill spread, and make hitboxes smaller.

Oh and for the sake of all that is holy, nerf grenadier damage.

Agreed on the first part but...

No! Buff flamethrower instead!

Also, do both, meet in the middle. Flamethrower should do more dps, grenadier should do less splash radius and infantry damage, and mcfarland secondary should lose some damage vs infantry but keep its ridiculous range to punish tunnel snipers. Really, both flamethrower and grenadier should be decent against vehicles and infantry given it's limited range, and both are, but grenadier is too good vs infantry, and flamethrower could be better but is always used wrong, if people notice it arc'd then they'd fire it slightly above enemies and score decent damage but it needs more dps vs vehicles. I like both honestly, they just need some adjustment love.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Oh fuck THATS what I've been missing. I've been landing bodyshots because I wasn't taking the arc into consideration.

Still... all for dps buff for flamer? Show of hands please.