Balance in RenX 0.35

[NUKEer]

So, who is more powerfull?

Has renegade X some imba-units?

[KimboZX]

QUOTE (NUKEer @ Oct 1 2009, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, who is more powerfull?
Has renegade X some imba-units?[/b]

yes, basic infrantry ownz to much headshot damage

[BLaZor]

It all depends on the map I think.

Certain maps it's better to play Nod, other maps better to play GDI.

That doesn't work all the time though, a few skilled players can be outclassed by a bunch of n00bs who work cohesively as a team.

[dejeroen]

shotgun is too good, one shot one kill at close range <_

[TigerXtrm]

Shotguns are indeed way to powerful in my opinion (compared to the shit they used to be in Renegade). Other then that I think the balance is pretty good. There are some bugs here and there that give a certain faction a certain advantage but even those cancel each other out I guess.

[Jngdwe]

The obby fires at anything no matter how close it gets, and fires a tad too rapidly. the sniper and shotgun are way to powerful now due to the easier aiming capabilities of the new engine. and the stanks rocket arch is way to high, it's nearly impossible to hit things at a close range like with the original stank.

[Notorious Pyromiac]

QUOTE (Jngdwe @ Oct 1 2009, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The obby fires at anything no matter how close it gets, and fires a tad too rapidly. the sniper and shotgun are way to powerful now due to the easier aiming capabilities of the new engine. and the stanks rocket arch is way to high, it's nearly impossible to hit things at a close range like with the original stank.[/b]

I've seen the obby fire on field over onto GDI's side LOL, I think someone was glitching though.

[MightyBOB]

The shotgun has always been a 1-hit kill weapon if you get close enough, but yes at the moment it's too powerful in general.

Keep the thoughts coming!

[Qbert987]

I made a record number of kills (for me that is) on my first game. I was using flamethrower. Basic is EPPIC now! :lol: :lol:

[Treeky]

Artillery are still overpowered considering their cheap price tag.

Though with the MLRS's general improvedness (read: lock on missiles + swivel turret), and the lack of splash damage through walls... hmm, maybe i'll re-think this...

[Jointn00b]

i'd say that they're close to eachother don't have any problems playing GDI or Nod. it's balanced although it is annoying to get stuck behind vehicle wrecks while your rushing lol. makes it kind of impossible to rush.

Also i think AGT miniguns do a little too much dmg, although their fire rate has been slowed.

And i agree with the rest. Basic is epic at this point, especially shotgun ^^

[Taliclol]

Those who played renegade know that shotguns can kill somebody in 1 hit.

Just get a havoc, sak or deadeye and headshot em.

And that atilery's are nice with damage, but low armored.

[Gasolin3]

QUOTE (Treeky @ Oct 2 2009, 06:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Artillery are still overpowered considering their cheap price tag.

Though with the MLRS's general improvedness (read: lock on missiles + swivel turret), and the lack of splash damage through walls... hmm, maybe i'll re-think this...[/b]

They're only overpowered now because there's no 1000 credit snipers yet, which take them out FAST.


I think one thing in the balance that bothers me is the repairing, it seems to be slower to repair vehicles than it was in renegade.

[ArcticRevrus]

i think nod arty tank is way op

also repair gun strength needs to be raised by at least half for vehicles

[Treeky]

I definitely noticed the slower repair time on vehicles.

I always felt artillery were overpowered even in normal Renegade, just like... look at the price difference between a buggy and an artillery, then look at the difference in usefullness between the two units. A small price difference for a huge difference in usefullness.

It's dangerous to attack a lone artillery with a lone medium tank, especially in an open area due to the arty's huge range advantage. I would have said that locking the arty's turret to it's body, like Renegade MLRS, might have brought their overpoweredness down...

Buuut now the MLRS has a swivel turret and everything's all strange and salady

[noxdrac]

Only real reason the Arty is Op is because of its insane splash, i remember arty's doing insane damage on reny too, its just that if a arty fires a decent range from u, you still die. Overal its balanced enough, with both sides having acces to pretty much the same firepower.

That said, flamerushes still own bad, oldschool rushes are still the best, and pretty much every strategy reny had, stayed in renx. its balanced well.

just fix the gdi ref:P gdi can't win with a nod ref! (pretty much the only real overpowered problem nod has i guess, they just can't lose

also, i feel (my opinion and mine alone, don't start hating me) stealth tanks do to much damage and have to little armour, but i've not played vanilla reny in a while so i could be wrong.

looking at infantry, aye, shotty is overpowered at this point, however, remember that this is in the unreal engine. I for one enjoy seeing people running around with diffrent basic infantry better then all of them instantly grabbing noobjets as soon as they get enough cash. Its not fun to have an enemy team send 9 sakura's after you and fighting back with 5mobiuses and 3 sydneys. it just breaks the fun. Generic soldier use is more realistic, and the upper tier units will be rarer since people won't want to "Waste" the money like they do in the beta.

Moneywise, GDI is insane. their harvy spawns about 2 seconds after its destroyed, cuts line in the queue and on nods side, it starts off later aswell. i understand this is because of the airplane we're not seeing yet, ferrying them in, but if that's the reason, slow down gdi's production a bit, its scary how fast wf spits out tanks.

on the other end, OBI IS MACHINEGUNOBI, seriously, in field, its just impossible to get into nod's base no matter what rush you do. 5apc's might make it, only if nod has no tanks, and the entire nod team just ran into the tunnel to fight a lone distraction sniper or w/e.

Overal, i would say, in the field, i've seen both sides win as much as the other.

basewise, nod totally kicks gdi's ass, however, gdi has a sligh advantage with faster harvy spawning and earlier allowance gain.

weaponwise: both teams tied, but flames own bad

infantry: tied, nuff said, more intense basic units don't make bad balance, and for the whiners: both teams have shotties

tanks: aye, mammy>all, but one mammy kills a rush with its huge wreck, so i'dd say nod.

nod:2/5

gdi:1/5

tied:2/5

overal, i think its a really good start, and i hope i've contributed anything usefull

[menace]

I give the most powerfull awary to GDI, thier MRLS rawks and the mammy is unstopible. the end.

[seriousj7]

Shotgun is really fun as it owns everyone in close combat. Nothing can win against them unless they know how to dodge crazily.

[QUAKERxnc]

QUOTE (seriousj7 @ Oct 2 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shotgun is really fun as it owns everyone in close combat. Nothing can win against them unless they know how to dodge crazily.[/b]

Dodgeing works?

[RypeL]

QUOTE (QUAKERxnc @ Oct 3 2009, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dodgeing works?[/b]

No. The special UT dodging was removed. He must have meant dodging as in just moving left and right.

[tflst5]

Mobile Artillery has always been a little OP in renegade. The Mobile Artillery never should have had a rotating turret. I am sure it was designed as an Assault Gun-type weapon and not a tank. Originally the gun was probably stationary. Most likely it was changed during play testing when testers did not fully understand its power or found the unit too boring. Making the turret rotated allows people to place their artillery in niche spots behind obstacles and shield it from return fire, while enjoying the MA's extremely nasty firepower and range. If it weren't for its vulnerability to snipers it would dominate every game IMO. It seems like the MRLS is now just as OP, so at least theres some balance there.

[Xocezert]

QUOTE (StripeyTL @ Oct 5 2009, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mobile Artillery has always been a little OP in renegade. The Mobile Artillery never should have had a rotating turret. I am sure it was designed as an Assault Gun-type weapon and not a tank. Originally the gun was probably stationary. Most likely it was changed during play testing when testers did not fully understand its power or found the unit too boring. Making the turret rotated allows people to place their artillery in niche spots behind obstacles and shield it from return fire, while enjoying the MA's extremely nasty firepower and range. If it weren't for its vulnerability to snipers it would dominate every game IMO. It seems like the MRLS is now just as OP, so at least theres some balance there.[/b]

I totally disagree.

[lauri455]

Hai there Since I've played RenX for very first time, I have weird feeling that Nod's Arty is overpowered I dunno how it works, but:

In Vanilla Renegade (v1,037):

Arty needs 9 hits to take out GDI's Med

Med needs 6 hits to take out Nod's Arty

In Renegade-X:

Arty needs 8 hits to take out GDI's Med

Med needs 7 hits to take out Nod's Arty

I've even checked damage taken from both vehicles vs. eachother - it's the same for VRen and RenX (92 hp per hit from Arty and 62 hp per hit from Med).

That's double advantage for Arty vs. Med tank, is this a bug?

[bali]

is there any directional damage? coz it can interfere in the whole checking process. i know there isnt supposed to be any (even though i would like the idea of having a couple of more vulnerable placen on vehs), but it seems to me that i can repair the vehicle faster when aiming at the back of it than aiming at the front of it

and for the arty-op question, yes the arty is op, because it has a wrong armor type selected for it, so it takes much less damage from the guns, like basic infantry, and maybe slightly less from other weapons/vehicles.

[lauri455]

QUOTE (bali @ Oct 10 2009, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... but it seems to me that i can repair the vehicle faster when aiming at the back of it than aiming at the front of it[/b]

I don't think so... At least Renegade doesn't have this feature, so RenX shouldn't.

QUOTE (bali @ Oct 10 2009, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and for the arty-op question, yes the arty is op, because it has a wrong armor type selected for it, so it takes much less damage from the guns, like basic infantry, and maybe slightly less from other weapons/vehicles.[/b]

Is it mentioned somewhere? Dunno, bug reporting forums?

[bali]

QUOTE (Lauri455 @ Oct 10 2009, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it mentioned somewhere? Dunno, bug reporting forums?[/b]

test it: 1 shotgunshot to the arty (14 damage), and 1 to the mrls (144 dmg). so that means from piont blank, a shotgunner can deastroy an mrls in 3 shots, when it can only scratch an arty.

Edit: i just tested if there is any directional damage, and no there isnt any. the "faster repairing" is just visual, re red bar is seemingly growing faster, and i guess when i was repairing from the back my veh's hp was in red, so i thought it was faster, but it isnt actually.

[Megajoel]

I think the main reason that the arty was OP in vRen is that it fired shells instead of GDI's MLRS missles. This is because the shells travelled significantly faster than the missles, making the shells harder to dodge. This may no be so bad on smaller maps, but on larger maps like field where long range arty-mlrs duels happen, the artys shells are so much harder to dodge, putting the MLRS at a disadvantage. Not to mention the MLRS fixed turret. You could, and still can in REN X, drive the arty backwards (With no speed penalty?) to minimise the area the enemy has to shoot at, as compared to driving forwards with the long body sticking out. Besides from experience, being in an arty against a med tank gives you a better chance than being in an mlrs against the light tank.

Still, in REN X, the MLRS has a fully rotating turret, and personally the missles seem to travel slightly faster (Correct me if I'm wrong), evening the odds.

[L0rd0wnt]

The Mobile Artillery's fire rate was increased in one of the older patches for renegade, thus turning it into the over powered POS that it is now.

[Megajoel]

So I joined the Exodus server yesterday which was empty. Next was islands, and with no one else around, i decided to play with the mammoth. Did some timings. It took 50 seconds of non stop cannon fire to kill the full health airstrip, and almost 1 minute to kill the ref using the tusk missles. Clearly, the tusks did less damage. What then, is the point of using them? They are slower and shorter ranged than cannon, so they should have more dmg and splash, which if i not wrong was in vREN. Thoughts or comments?

[Jointn00b]

Tusks aren't meant for tank vs building. Tusks are short ranged anti-infantry and anti-light vehicle missiles which you basically use when an enemy gets to close to you. You know, you can kill infantry with a semi direct hit of a tusk. try that with a shell and you need 3-4 shells where you need 1 or 2 tusks

[neagu]

I thought the tusk missiles did the most damage per second out of all vehicle weapons. Can somebody confirm this ?

[Gasolin3]

I feel like Arty is overpowered as long as we don't have the 1k snipers which take them out fast.

[R315r4z0r]

Do the Ref and Air have the same HP?

[FooFighter]

QUOTE (Gasolin3 @ Oct 11 2009, 07:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel like Arty is overpowered as long as we don't have the 1k snipers which take them out fast.[/b]

Not really.. Arty in ren is countered tho by Mediums, but in RenX med fails hardly against arties.

[Lyserg]

It all comes down to whoever drives the vehicle though.

[FooFighter]

QUOTE (Lyserg @ Oct 11 2009, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It all comes down to whoever drives the vehicle though.[/b]

Nope, its obvious its op.

[MecanicalMan]

All the arty needs is its RoF reduced to balance it. At the moment it fires as fast as a Med. ish.

[Lyserg]

QUOTE (FooFighter @ Oct 11 2009, 06:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope, its obvious its op.[/b]

Then how come I've destroyed many arties in 1on1's in a med tank? Same the other way around. I've destroyed arties with MLRS' sometimes, but it was a little harder since I can't really predict the path the missles take, including the amount of time it takes for the missles to hit their target, most of the time.

there's sucky arty drivers, as are there sucky med tank drivers, same goes for every vehicle in the mod.

[Jointn00b]

QUOTE (Lyserg @ Oct 11 2009, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then how come I've destroyed many arties in 1on1's in a med tank? Same the other way around. I've destroyed arties with MLRS' sometimes, but it was a little harder since I can't really predict the path the missles take, including the amount of time it takes for the missles to hit their target, most of the time.

there's sucky arty drivers, as are there sucky med tank drivers, same goes for every vehicle in the mod.[/b]

agreed, arty's may have the FP but med definately gets the advantage if you know how to use it and keep hitting your enemy. In 1vs1 battles i almost always manage to kill the arty before it kills me

[Blackwater]

Once Nod gets its rocket soldier it'll get lots more balanced. Also nod vehicles are low on armor, so when the repair gun is operating at full capacity again it'll work better for them. They're meant for hit n' run.

so hit, run, repair, hit, run, repair. Kind of that style

[bali]

in vren the tusks indeed did more damage to the buildings and to everything else too (25% more for tanks, im not sure if this is the percentane for other things too but i think for biuldings is close or equal to 25%).

the highest dps goes to the flametank, and i think the stank comes 2nd with mammy tusks (im not really sure about this, because i used stanks for nearly always for rushes), then mrls when all rocket hits, then arty, then med, then light

[der Papst]

QUOTE (Treeky @ Oct 2 2009, 05:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Artillery are still overpowered considering their cheap price tag.

Though with the MLRS's general improvedness (read: lock on missiles + swivel turret), and the lack of splash damage through walls... hmm, maybe i'll re-think this...[/b]

Artilleriy had allways enormous firepower and a very long distance.
But the NOD-Artillery requires skill to hit over long distances, MLRS is useless in short distances and both can't stand enemy fire.

That's the principe of command & conquer: Two sides with absolutely different vehicles, every one has strengths and weaknesses, but no one is imba.


I've played Renegade X now for a few hours and i think, the ballance is extact the same like in C&C: tiberian dawn and the original C&C Renegade.

[MightyBOB]

Merged the Arty OP thread and the Mammoth Tusk thread with the Balance thread. Keep it all in here please.

We modified the Artillery's armor type (didn't have the correct "light" armor in 0.35) for the next patch. Have a gander at that when the patch comes out.

[FooFighter]

QUOTE (Lyserg @ Oct 11 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then how come I've destroyed many arties in 1on1's in a med tank? Same the other way around. I've destroyed arties with MLRS' sometimes, but it was a little harder since I can't really predict the path the missles take, including the amount of time it takes for the missles to hit their target, most of the time.

there's sucky arty drivers, as are there sucky med tank drivers, same goes for every vehicle in the mod.[/b]

I understand you cloud take a close battle med vs arty which is obvious, then med wins. Once you get at longer range arty has and advantage due to the shells fly much faster compared to renegade. Thats why people call it op somewhere.

[Lyserg]

QUOTE (FooFighter @ Oct 12 2009, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand you cloud take a close battle med vs arty which is obvious, then med wins. Once you get at longer range arty has and advantage due to the shells fly much faster compared to renegade. Thats why people call it op somewhere.[/b]

Then people need to learn how to rush.

[enderx475]

Field is RIDICULOUSLY rigged for NOD.

NOD advantages:

1. Ability to nuke refinery AND barracks with ease

2. Attack weapons factory from more angles and from farther away

3. Attack AGT without taking damage from it

vs.

GDI:

1. Can only ion refinery, not very easily either.

2. Can only attack Hand of Nod with vehicles. Less valuable than airstrip, harder to hit. Only ONE distant spot for an MRLS to sit. All others must sit closer.

3. Obelisk can only be hit by vehicles when the Obelisk is able to hit the vehicle.

These are all MAJOR balance issues that need to be addressed.

A couple others:

It's extremely difficult to rush the NOD base. The obelisk is SOOOO far back as well.

NOD also has easy access to destroying the weapons factory, while GDI can only get at the Hand of Nod, and as I said earlier, it's harder to get at. Hand of Nod does NOT equal the weapons factory.

A lot of issues here.

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

A lot of the balance problems that have been voiced here (such as Arties being OP for example) have already been fixed and these balance fixes will be making their way to you all very soon. Please be patient with us, and thank you.

As for Field being a "Nod map", no not really. GDI can take advantage of the Obelisk's recharge time for example - someone can easily run into the Nod refinery either during a rush, or with two coordinating people (one to take the shot).

Secondly it's a bit hard to say the Hand of Nod is less valuable than the Airstrip. It is less valuable right now, because with the current release, tank blast radiuses is are too big (it has been fixed for the next patch), but Nod Raveshaws, SBHs, Technicians, and snipers are all very valuable assets that are needed to win on Field. Destroy the Hand of Nod as GDI and you are in a great position.

Thirdly, Nod can only hit the WF from the Bunker area and the right side of the Field. GDI can do the exact same with their MRLS.

The AGT not hitting an opposing Artillery will most likely be fixed.

The main reason why Nod is winning more often Field (about 60% of the time) in this build is because Artilleries are overpowered. Remember that GDI has Medium Tanks. One Medium tank can take out any Nod vehicle, because Meds are an all-in-one purpose vehicle, while Nod has 3 tanks that balance out with the GDI Med. Meds have good speed, good price, good armour, and good damage; no Nod vehicle is like this. So it is okay if Nod gets an advantage here or there in Field, considering Meds are a great vehicle, and a pack of them is very difficult to face with any Nod mixture.

[SkyHammer]

Any imbalances in the maps themselves are only slight and were present in the original Renegade as well, and I like having them. It would be lame if both bases were exactly the same in layout(which they mostly are); the way it is now adds at least a little variety to how you play each team, and I don't even consider it an imbalance anyway. More like "asymmetrical". Its the game mechanics themselves that need work, but everyone knows thats coming.

Nice work on the mod btw devs. I saw this recently and had to try it, its been a few years since I played Renegade. In fact, I was still a kid lol. Same gunfights, same tank battles, same flame rushes, same lag

[Cryptx1]

Arty shoots way to fast, used to it shooting slower which made it a bit more balanced to use in original ren, also yes shotguns need fixing and repair guns need to repair for more HP. ^^

[dsi1]

One thing I've noticed is that Nod's basic flamethrower unit can make a very effective smokescreen with the fire effects. Though if you really need to use that tactic you're probably already loosing.