yosh56

But I figured EVERYONE LOVED hearing 3 A10s zooming by spraying 30mils at maximum volume no matter where the bloody hell you're standing!?

Losing 50 of their damage off of their infantry damage AND losing damage towards light armour is though.

I actually thought about that as well. I feel like sniper head-shots could probably do well with being more tier-based, rather than headshot with 500 and 1000 are both instagib from anywhere. Just thinking back to my days of playing Section 8, I don't ever remember anyone actually complaining about sniper head shots only being OHKO if the person being shot had on no health mods, and the person sniping was using full damage. It actually made it seem like snipers were a support role, but if you were good at it you could still rack up kills because you were actually GOOD, and making a second body shot wasn't all that big of a deal.

^ But they're already getting a nerf.

Engineers/Techs are already strong enough, and if a team has enough of the map on lock-down then engis don't even have to worry about snipers. On the same note, that 'easy' shot to make is usually complicated by anyone who is not a total noob at repairing in the field. When you move like a chicken with their head cut off, then just put 50 tons of heavy armour between yourself and the vapour trails you basically negate snipers. No matter how much you want to make it sound like sniping engineers/techs is game-breaking, it's honestly the one thing snipers can do that's both productive, and only as good as the engineers/enemy team are bad. 500 not being able OHKO tier 3 infantry, maybe. I'd rather see PIC and Mobius resist AOE damage, which was expanded in RenX because reasons.

^ Harder to sneak, but the Obelisk also took a nerf with no AOE and infantry being able to sprint. A single 1k infantry can just run to the Obelisk from the barrier behind the AS tower.

150 is fine, the only thing it does is change the Ramjet from 1 shot or 2 shots to the body, to 2 or 3. 3 shots to other tier 3 infantry still is in no way a bad thing. Tier 3 health's only noticeable benefit right now is being able to tank the Obelisk, and that literally means nothing on a map with no defences. It literally does nothing to change tier 1 or 2 TTK. (They can tank like one extra mine of course, but it's pretty negligible compared to tier 2 health)

That. Not everything needs a complete rebalance; some things just need to be nerfed...like me. I doubt a smoke grenade will let you make it all the way to the back of a defended base.

...Umm, you're assuming a lot there. A) Infiltration happens a lot, and it's far stronger than nuking. B) You're assuming GDI has the front of the base mined, in which case somebody should be watching it anyway, nullifying the concern entirely if an SBH does throw an EMP and Decloak. So shall we just nix infiltration as a tactic altogether? Dedicated defenders don't need that much more aid. Hell, the building statuses going red on screen all the time were bad enough, let defenders have to. Have some form of awareness; it's already the easiest, if not most thankless, job in-game.

For the love of God keep this on topic. But yes, Gatsu you really should calm down...Jake is actually being fairly tame. --- I'm sorry...but of you thought the Ramjet "rapes light vehicles" we must not be playing the same game. It does enough to support the killing of a light ground unit, and it's just capable of keeping air rushes from being the end-all-be-all. Only having a tier 1 option for anti-air doesn't really fit in with Renegade's progression system at all. At least we had two actual AA options, them being the rocket launcher and the Ramjet, but now we have one...the cheap one. Ever notice the sudden air-Zerg whenever the barracks/Ref or PP goes down? That's because aircraft basically have no real fear when Ramjets are off the field, as the rocket launcher can both be dodged and does pretty piss poor damage that you can just duck away and heal in a second or 2. Other than that, no other weapons are capable of enough DPS and range to keep up with taking down aircraft. The Laser chaingun can try, but when aircraft are moving like they do it's extremely difficult to hold that unwieldy thing on target beyond like 30metres or so. Most of the other weapons that are actually GOOD vs aircraft are the ones with the shortest range (shotgun, heavy pistol and Volt Rifle). Does it mean aircraft need a debuff: no not really, except maybe the removal of that random 100 hp increase. All it means is that there should remain a high-tier AA solution, and not just pretending the rocket launcher is worthwhile against anything other than the most incompetent of flyers. Hell, if anything give the PIC and Railgun a long range alt-fire that does less damage but helps make up for the loss of the Ramjet's anti-light armour ability. Just tossing that idea out there. --- I'm sold on EMP nades getting mine-disarming abilities, especially if servers are going to continue setting red oculus mine-limits that basically halt infantry advances. So long as it's damage-over-time, it won't be significantly overpowered. Granted...its vehicle-stopping abilities are still questionably game-breaking.

I have to second the cone of fire nerf the hardest. I adore the damage nerf, 150 damage let's Mobius hard-counter 1k's chest-to-chest, which is good. Nerfing the ability of the sniper to...snipe, well what the hell? So now we WANT them to be most effective at short/medium range? I'm still under the impression that we don't need 2.5 sniper rifles to begin with. That exactly. I think I ever heard ONE complaint that beacons give too many points, and it was from someone who's entire play style was basically SBH-nuking. Meant to mention that as well. Firing the shotgun is basically akin to rolling a die, as opposed to caring about how well you were aiming.

DOT for EMP nades is nice and all, but why no nerfs at all the EMP-nades? After following that topic I'm fairly certain there was a mutual consensus that with their current ability to let one person single handedly pause rushes, EMP nades were kind of game-breaking. Somebody listen to this man; if the devs think the 225 credit rocket launcher is sufficient anti-air, they've obviously never played their own game. As for the Ramjet getting a hip-fire spread, I'm in full agreement with Ren not needing any random numbers to determine fights. They're negligible when you're firing a hail of bullets and the spread is tight, but with single-shot it's like rolling a die. The heavy armour damage is supposedly just so you can 'finish heavy armour off' but you forgot to finish that sentence. 'So you can finish heavy armour off from anywhere you can see it!". I have a feeling that 'Havoc Rushing' is going to be making its way into my guide here, now that 5 of them can kill a Light tank before it ever gets within range of them. Jake brought up a good point that the biggest advantage of heavy armour is having nothing instantaneous that can harm you, save for the PIC/Obelisk. This is what made the PIC worthwhile, not its 'okay' damage. If anything, if you really wanted to make Havoc a commando class, you'd have scrapped the Ramjet and given him a silenced automatic weapon similar to the carbine. A 1k infantry that was good vs infantry and had explosives would be tolerable. One that can do what the other classes can do is kinda pointless. Always said we needed more differentiation in infantry...I see we're getting the opposite of that though. --- I see I eventually won that fight =3. But seriously, this is the first place where balance was broken, and now it just seems like it's sliding downhill with no plan on stopping.

I was about to go to bed...I really was. Good, people are pretty lazy nowadays when it comes to manually patching their stuff. ...I'm pretty sure you just haphazardly nerfed the 500 sniper. The point of it is to be stealthy and not have everyone know where you are. But can you target beacons through it? Could be easily exploited to cover beacons if you can't. Hopefully that's just for air vehicles. Transport helis can now truly go back to being just flying coffins now. Doesn't that sort of kill one of the main strategies used in Ren? That's kind of big. Lol, what? Shouldn't it be a decent punishment in points for the enemy since it's kind of expensive and frankly easy to spam on high-Eco maps? I followed that topic; there was an overwhelming majority that shot down this idea, as being able to mass-disable mines can get very ridiculous very quickly. It may set off a building under attack message, but if there's no damage done to the building an overwhelming majority wouldn't really check it out. By the time anyone got there, it'd be too late to do anything. At least infantry sharing the damage of mines meant they were all weakened for defenders, now they're all at full health. Havoc/Sakura get 2 timed C4s Devs need to provide some logic behind that decision. I know they're technically commando units, but as snipers in multiplayer this doesn't make much sense. If anything, give the anti-vehicle 1k infantry 2 timed C4 so they're more efficient at blowing things up for their cost. That, and maybe it would seem like Hotwires/Techs had less of a monopoly on building destruction. "Laser ChainGun" I'm pretty sure you just buffed a weapon that was already extremely powerful. Ramjet Rifle: Decrease of damage to 150, nice. I analysed the Ramjet Ina. Topic already and said that's exactly where it should be so that it had a logical progression of damage like the 500. Kudos Increased Heavy armour damage: Um...you all do realise that 30hp of damage at less than a second between shots means that the Ramjet can pull off 90 damage in 3 seconds to tanks. The PIC does 85..and has 3 seconds between shots. You know what the Ramjet can do that that the PIC can't though: Outrange tanks, snipe infantry from extreme distances, and hold its own vs. groups of infantry in CQC. The PIC is becoming dangerously close to pointless. Decreased light armour damage: I really hope that goes away, the Ramjet is all that stands between light vehicle spam being the end-all-be-all late game. At least give the PIC the buff it deserves (~100 damage up from 85) if we're going to have a Ramjet that can outrange and fight all vehicles now. Volt Auto Rifle.: I'll have to wait and see what this charged alt fire is, but it can't be any worse than whatever the hell the current alt-fire is. Granted, I would have hoped to see differentiating alt-fires for Nod and GDI. Field: ...meh, it was already easy to infantry rush from the tunnels, but now I feel like it'll be outright idiot-proof. Goldrush No specific mention of whether the ability of GDI to get outside of the map was fixed. This silo...I hope it's infantry only, that way it's an actual choice that impacts gameplay vs. this thing that just serves as a gateway for the winning team to win harder. ....Yeah, I guess it's good otherwise.

Could easily work. I mean, it makes less sense truthfully with Nod considering they airdrop all their vehicles anyway, but that bit of realism doesn't need to matter, as we already deal with it. That happens even in the most noobish of games. When teams are on their last leg (e.g down to no vehicles and maybe just basic infantry) they already start pulling ahead in points due to factors like the cheapness of their units and generally being more efficient K/D due to the offence having to move out of their comfort zone to actually seal the deal. Making that efficiency translate to actual currency (which credits currently seem to fail at) means that even though the offence may be gaining a 2nd currency, they're giving more of it away due to throwing units at their enemies. That concept translates already when you look at how easy it is to win by points once you're down to free infantry vs. a fully functional team. Most matches, from the looks of things, the defence doesn't need a handout; they just need to still be able to feel like they haven't lost entirely. Perhaps having airdrops always be available could be balanced by the airdrops themselves lowering in cost slightly as the base theoretically becomes more and more threatened (e.g buildings being destroyed). It would make sense to be more willing to send help to an installation that actually needed it than one that had on-site capabilities. Granted, the price drop could be counter-balanced by the cool down time increasing as structures are destroyed, simulating a waning interest in actually wasting resources to aid the base from outside sources. On the opposing end, the more structures destroyed on the enemy team, the more expensive calling in airdrops would be for the winning team, as they obviously have things under control, so why call for outside help? Again, handouts are kind of unnecessary and seem more like hand-holding than anything. A function that simply evolves as the game goes on to help slightly balance the odds is an actual mechanic.

Hurray for The Yosh finally hijacking a topic and getting noticed. The Veterancy systems didn't exactly work like that in Renegade, they were used for getting actual in-server promotions for the round. Those added health/armour to characters, but as someone already mentioned they unlocked some !buy functions on some servers. I'm not hinting at bringing that in, so you need not worry about how those systems worked, except for how vet-points were earned which I'll touch on in a second. Good, except what do you mean by 'unlock'? Would it be that difficult to just make a tab for them (or throw the beacons under items)? Could limit SOME to the base. Assuming the supply drops were done via transport helicopters, you could just make them vulnerable to being shot down, leading players to have options and be able to take the risk of calling down reinforcements in enemy territory. Do that, and people will badger you all to put cool downs on nuke/ion beacons. I guarantee it. That's not to say it's a bad idea though. Alright, I said I'd answer it eventually. How it worked in the Renegade servers that had it: Infantry kills were usually based on the unit killed (free infantry were worth 1 point on death while tier 3 infantry were worth 3 IIRC). Vehicles also gave differing vet-points I believe, but you could get partial vet-points if you did significant damage to a vehicle but somebody else actually killed it. (I believe vehicles ranged from 3 vet points and up, but I don't think we need to copy that system directly since we're looking at using this differently) Buildings gave the most Veterancy points when KILLED (I believe it was like 15). Repairing also rewarded vet-points, though the formula for that is a complete mystery to me (maybe X amount of damage-repair = 1 vet point. It couldn't be too easy to earn however.) Eh, tying them to score almost ties them right to credits. Again, the Veterancy systems in OldRen still rewarded repairing, but your Veterancy rewards were far greater for actual productivity than just outright point-whoring with repairs or sieging.

I'm aware of how Vet-points worked in server mods, but I was just suggesting them as a second form of currency to buy either items or supply drops. They don't necessarily need to be called Vet-points, it was just the most CnC'esque thing we could go for.

...Let's just throw it out there since it's relevant to the current back-and-forth: did we ever think of implementing a second currency? Think more so like Veterancy points that are only rewarded by killing infantry/vehicles and buildings(not just for damaging them). They wouldn't be tied to any building, and the only way to earn them is to actually do something productive. The points could be used to fund beacons for airdrops, that way the Ref isn't necessarily a deciding factor for them. Of course the prices would need to be adjusted to make sure it at least felt like it took more effort to buy with Veterancy than it did with normal credits.

Believe someone on these boards already mentioned the idea of supply beacons, and vehicle beacons. It's more CnC-ish than many of the newer ideas implemented, and I already suggested it before, so of course I'm down with that idea. Could just make it a place able beacon, and perhaps have different levels of them with increasing costs/cool-downs(e.g a fairly cheap one with a 5 minute cool down that only calls down a group of light vehicles, then a more expensive one at 8 minutes that will give main battle tanks and a few light vehicles, then finally an expensive one that could be bought and would provide along the lines of Mammoths and Flames/Stanks.) The team-fund idea also feels like it needs to just be hard-coded into the game for several purchases.

Needed a team-only vote to surrender since the beginning. Some teams are basically hopeless after they lose a building. Eh, rank-based auto-balance is iffy. I've seen more than enough balanced games, team-wise. Stacking happens, but I rarely see it. Of course when it happens Im usually one of the culprits >_>. I don't feel like changing channels on TS =p

...I've never warped back to where I was >_>. I just ride the front of vehicles on a regular basis. But it is shaky in third person, in first you don't really notice it.

...many a sniper just came.

You're all aware Renegade was always closer to a FPMOBA than a standard FPS, right? Other than Field(and even Field to an extent) the maps are broken into lanes. We have turrets that get camped under on a regular basis, even if they aren't mid-field like DOTA. Both sides are protecting something while also attempting to destroy what the other team has. Both teams have to gain money in-game to get better equipment. DOTA and Ren both have a bit of a snowball effect with better players usually getting better equipment faster, allowing them to win easier. Just like Ren, it's VERY obvious when one team has more experienced/skilled players, as the map very quickly portrays just how freakishly bad or good a team is doing (E.G Turrets and Lanes lost in DOTA/Tech-buildings and the field being lost in Ren.) I've actually said it before, but Ren should be marketed more towards the average MOBA player than the average FPS player. Hell, what other FPSs can you FEED the other team in? Maybe Planetside if we look at the BIG picture with giving the enemy certs. Throwing money/points at your enemy in Ren is actually detrimental in a very obvious manner. ...I don't think the mode matters when it comes to people stacking teams. CnC mode is already almost a form of DOTA, and we team stack there with no problem.

Field really is just a Really balanced map. Both sides have easy camp/siege opportunities, and both sides have access to buildings from the tunnel, even though GDI has access to ALL of nod's buildings with minimal numbers. Unfortunately, complete balance means stalemates are even harder to break. EMP nades didn't exactly help either...

Is and always has been All Out War

You know what's lacking in Field right now? The Yosh