yosh56

Known. Even better, rockets shot from INSIDE the HON often are stopped by the HON windows whether they're broken or not. It coincidentally gets rid of a B2B spot on Complex though.

I jumped the gun on when it was supposedly going to be ready, and honestly I'd like to have waited another week or so to gussy it up a bit, but it's definitely updated text-wise at least. Updated to Beta 4 and added a slight change-log to the first post. Link is updated, and I do plan on working on this more, especially with gathering screenshots and everything else to help it not be 99% text with no visuals. Will also be poking around the wiki soon, as making the infantry/vehicle list now will go hand and hand with updating the severely out-of-date wiki we're dealing with here. I'll add this to the first post as well, but if anyone is willing to just take screenshots of various interesting things (Rushes, infiltration paths, etc) I may be willing to use them. They don't have to even really reference anything, as I do plan on just adding some random (but relevant) pictures about to break up the massive wall-o-text.

It kills the flow of the game when someone just sits under the water, knowing that they can't be hurt by most things. It looks aesthetically ridiculous, which is a smack in the face to an otherwise beautiful game. And it just doesn't make sense when the same effect (sneaking) can be achieved in many different ways. It's also not that easy to defend...for one you literally have to search for them in the water if they're there, which means you have to get right on the ledge of the water basically. The mines are easily disarmable there (especially with EMP grenades in the game now) because anyone can disarm with cover. It is just completely out of place in the game, especially considering that the devs specifically did not carry over any Renegade "glitch tactics" to this game, such as using a PT through a building's wall. For the love of got, Hate, it was intentional, so we can't even call this path a glitch now. Invincibility in water exists on Islands too, but considering you're only invincible from the surface, you can definitely just be killed by anyone who takes the time to figure out they can jump in with you and have a crazy dolphin fight. The mines being easy disarm-able means absolutely nothing, as if the team just fires-and-forgets the mines, they're as liable to die to an infantry rush on HON as they are to die to a single infiltrator.

You're aware a group of Mobius's or LCGs/Patches/Gunners with one Hotwire/Tech around and packing EMP grenades is far more of a threat than a bunch of Engineers with Carbines, right? You've also never been victim of a Chem rush, or McFarland rush, or Mobi, Gunner or any of those >_>. Other infantry have a major purpose, just like Engineers have theirs. Half the reason we allowed EMP nades to disarm mines is to eliminate Engineers being the exclusive mine-disarm unit. If sidearms REALLY got revised to what they should be, that'd only become even more true, as there are plenty of other infantry that can kill buildings AND defend themselves inside, and on the way there far better than any Engineer class could hope for. I really just want to keep reiterating this: Mass infantry > Mass tanks, save for ammo concerns, but even those can be circumvented if people are just occasionally running back to refill. (Infantry give less points, are more agile, and can just sit places where vehicles can't hit them. I wrote more than enough pages on this, and proved it in practice on more than just one occasion.) That's an iffy statement. Sometimes you just have to be better. You can't get off with just luckily landing one or 2 shots with an automatic weapon in a game like this, Section 8, Unreal Tournament, etc; you have to learn it, be good, then be better than everyone you happen to be fighting. Trust me, most people you'll run into can't aim for crap, and if you have an LCG or Chaingun you can run through them fast enough to have only lost 10-20% of your health. At least add PICs/Railguns and snipers to that list... sheesh; they hard-counter every unit you listed, sans SBH, which everyone else with an automatic weapon counters.

I wasn't referring to the invincibility, and that right there is one issue with this topic. The invincibility given from surface to firing underwater is a totally separate issue to that of the Obelisk not being able to see you under water. As to why I would say that, it's because it IS something that's been in since beta 1, was found during beta 1, was noted by all in beta 1, and honestly nobody could really find a reason to change it, especially considering it haphazardly balanced the map from the infantry side of things. It'd be like removing the tunnel beacon under the Airstrip. Well obviously it was confirmed as an intended addition for the Obelisk not to be able to see you, so some of this argument is rendered a bit unnecessary. At what point would you not be able to afford to have mines at the bridge? Even on TMX we generally mine the bridge, and so long as there is any traffic going in and out of the Hand of Nod it is unlikely somebody is just going to be able to casually disarm those mines. Again, it is literally a branch of the regular path where you are clearly visible, counter-able, and as we know now, using something that was completely intended. I'm not even going to ask how this is comparable to that glitch on Canyon...it's not, in any way shape or form. You're literally going through the map to use that, it's a terrible comparison. It could only be compared to the old bug on GoldRush where, as mentioned before, GDI could walk out of the map and walk in behind Nod's Power plant. That's one instance where you sorta' do your 'lording over' thing that you have a tendency to do vs. most everyone who ever contradicts you. Don't really need to find examples, as it's definitely part of your personality and you'll provide fresh instances on a regular basis. Swimming in general looks out of place in this game. I think the last thing they'll care about is the fact that that minimal current (I didn't even ever notice the water moved till this topic) should be holding that person back. They'll probably care about the weird invincibility (which again you can negate by just submerging yourself) but that's about it. ...I want you to read that to yourself out loud and REALLY REALLY, think about the Canyon bug. It was around in Beta 1. It was discussed, but it was also dubbed completely legit since it made some sense, and it was, again, easily counter-able in a manner that didn't make the Nod team have to really do anything out of the ordinary. They usually mined there anyway, and if the mines went off, they just checked the HON and the river. The Canyon wall bug is a complete and utter monstrosity of map-breaking proportions. tl;dr Canyon bug is a totally different monster; Goldrush river is now something confirmed as made on purpose; water invincibility is a totally separate issue.

A) It's WELL known B) It's easily countered along with countering infiltration to the HON over the bridge. On top of this, the Obelisk still charges, giving away that something is amiss. C) If you want a river you shouldn't be able to move up through, yell about Lakeside, otherwise your logic is completely pointless in that aspect. Seriously, you can just run up freaking rapids. D) Just because we removed the glitches/bugs from Ren, doesn't mean RenX can't have its own that adds to higher level game-play once you know them. Going through the river is countered with mines, and anyone spotting you can just jump in and shoot you in the face. Back when GDI could just walk out of the map and come up behind the Power plant, NOW THAT WAS A GAME BREAKING FLAW. Nod could not counter that with mines, unless they used their entire mine-limit on the Power plant itself, and even then GDI could just plant ions since they were well out of sight of the Obelisk. E) Hate, I see what Ryz is getting at, and I'll translate for him: you seriously have no clue how to respond to anything without attacking the person you're responding to. You and Gatsu should probably start a club. F) This isn't probably ever going to get removed, no matter how much you complain about it.

Or ya' know... people could get smart and notice that Hotwires/Techs also heal infantry. Seen some people (myself included) take notice of this, and it completely changes the feeling of playing infantry. So long as you don't get sniped in the face, you can just sit in heavy cover (which tanks can't do) and take off all their splash damage while you casually pick away at them. Possibly awarding a few more points for healing infantry might make this more common. (Would just have to be coded not to award points for self-inflicted damage)

Infantry aren't made to go head-to-head with tanks, but if you just use the terrain to your advantage you completely own the hell out of them. Infantry vs. Infantry, I don't think it's too difficult to kill, but the rifle soldier is free, and at mid-range and below they're actually really good if you can predict and aim. The moment you even pay 150c, you basically destroy any other infantry unit with Farlands,Chem troopers and every other non-AT unit.

Honestly, that's more of an issue that ties into the economy. Right now GDI players can get 1500 credits with their thumb up their ass doing nothing in base for about 5 minutes. Basically, Mammoths aren't even considered expensive now, so they're just spammable. Basically a +1 to eco nerf.

Just a simple call-out: Currently their is no distinction between "GDI Refinery/PP" and "Nod Refinery/PP" whenever somebody is spotted near a PP or Ref. This can get very confusing when you spot an SBH in Nod's base near their PP but it causes a panic in your base due to there being no distinction between GDI or Nod PP.

I won't let it. Also +1 for Gunner/McFarland/Grenadier having self splash damage.

No. Seriously, it takes 3 people to get it to a stage of being powerful... don't deny one of the only things that builds team-play. Also, as much as I usually disagree with Hate, I also think it doesn't sound like you read or comprehended that topic very well at all. Credits already give better players access to better things faster anyway, so it really wouldn't change anything.

Right, I'm just down to adding a few things to fully update my guide to beta 4(I'd say I'll be done by tonight) so I'll probably begin adding at least the basics over the course of this week. Damn, I didn't even know I liked this game -that- much till I looked back on how much I've written for it. I sorta' see how you guys were able to run a pure passion to make it now.

Could not agree more. I hate refreshing the list now in-game...though rarely do I use the server browser in-game.

While it is true that using non-hitscan weapons is a bitch without an exceptionally low ping on every UE3 game, I just have to point out the fact that making the tier-1 Officer hitscan actually breaks Renegade's infantry balancing. Basically, what made Nod's 2 unique infantry feel like they were 'better' is the fact that only Nod had hit-scan infantry at tier 2 (sans the sniper rifle, which is sort of its own thing). GDI had splash damage over Nod, but with a bit of clever positioning Nod could take that advantage away and exploit being able to pick off GDI infantry from mid-range as little more than a point-click-and-hold adventure. NOW, GDI has the hit-scan Officer, the hit-scan McFarland, AND the only infantry units with splash damage, so if they don't feel like aiming they can just use that instead. (The rocket soldier's splash is meh). In truth, GDI's infantry are actually significantly better now that one of Nod's major advantages was rendered null and void by GDI gaining 2 extra hit-scan options, let alone the Officer which already mimics the LCG.

However... it doesn't. Yes the Officer needs to be knocked down a notch in ROF, but nixing its ROF doesn't stop the fact that we're still looking at a $450 credit unit that: Is worse at killing vehicles, of both types, than a rocket soldier (which got buffed TWICE for some reason during B4 testing) - Is only 'going to be' on par with killing infantry with the normal Officer, which also is probably still going to have a larger magazine and be better suited for it. -- Is only further put down by the fact that both of the above infantry can just use sidearms (which come out cheaper) to make up for their own downsides. Actually, as I had to fight for in B4 testing, making a lot of other guns hitscan takes away one of the things Nod's unique infantry had going for them. It's why I fought so hard to keep the Tac-Rifle from staying hit-scan.

You're also not including that the LCG got double-nerfed from B3 to B4, PLUS the infantry that it was supposedly better than ALL got buffed in multiple ways, further driving down into a pit of 'cool, but really not a necessary addition': AKA novelty.

At no point did I say the LCG can't land headshots, I just said it's GOING to miss more that should have been now. I still see bars melt at close range, at mid+ though it gets really iffy... like Modern-shooter RNG iffy; like enough to interfere with hitting tanks even at center of mass. The LCG no doubt still handles itself, but it just never seems like it's worth getting for anything. The Rocket soldier is cheaper and does more against vehicles, as well as doesn't even need to stay exposed.. or aim. The Officer does more against infantry (currently), and can 1-mag a light vehicle like nobody's business. Both of them are also cheaper. The LCG just kinda... looks cool and is sorta a chaingun that CAN do damage to heavy armour, but nothing about it really stands out. Might as well have a rocket soldier with a carbine/tib weapon and you'd be more effective. Considering Nod is supposedly the infantry faction, it kind of makes sense that they should have a chaingun that's better in more than just 1 way to that thing you could be buying for way cheaper. Again, it's not Nod's field to just be able to output more damage quickly, but consistently pestering an enemy for like 15 seconds, then being able to sustainably fight infantry for longer than a cheaper class is right up their alley. Just upping the magazine also slightly bridges the gap between Patch and the LCG, but makes sure Patch is still better at dealing out damage fast, which is GDI's thing, as stated before. The LCG will just be able to do more sustainable, annoying damage. Again, all of this without needing to touch ROF and damage which would effect infantry combat way too much, and neither of those 2 units are in need of really changing in that category.

Referring to both the Chaingun and the Laser Chaingun (LCG) I keep seeing a lot of supposed balance suggestions that only focus on nerfing or buffing damage and rate of fire and all sorts of other things that are very obvious statistics that change how the guns work WHILE firing. What I don't get is how nobody has pointed out the fact that the Chaingun has TWO-HUNDRED shots a magazine. WHY?! This is the sole reason that it can kill an Arty/MRLS all by itself. I know RenX isn't a copy-paste of OldRen, which is good, but this is probably one of the most game-breaking changes which now starts to favour the Chaingun over the LCG. I'm not saying the LCG is now under-powered, but right now the fact that there are more advantages to playing an Officer for 175 than there is for playing an LCG Blackhand for 450 is kind of concerning. After the spread increase and fire rate decrease, the LCG has become a worse option for fighting infantry AND light vehicles than the Officer that costs significantly less. Unfortunately, we know what the LCG was like in beta 3, and nobody wants that again, so instead of bothering to keep trying to tweak damage and rate-of-fire and that god awful spread, why not look at the one thing that REALLY broke the chaingun/LCG offset from OldRen to RenX: that 'Spray all day' magazine. Having the regular Chaingun as is now might be somewhat too powerful, but I'm fine with it being able to mow through infantry if the person behind it has the aim to do so. The problem is, even the biggest noob can spray for FIFTEEN+ seconds straight. That is literally the longest magazine in the game (which makes some sense), but perhaps it made better sense when the Officer wasn't that great (e.g beta 1-3). Now, he's hit-scan and has no spin-up time again. I think it's time that magazine get looked at and possibly dropped back down to 100-150. If it was dropped to 125, the Chaingun would no longer be able to run through light vehicles in less than one magazine, which I personally think is a bigger problem than their actual damage to light armour. They're supposed to be good against it, but that puts a lot of power in one individual's hands. At least make them have to switch to a secondary to finish it off (or bring a friend). On the same token, now that the LCG has been put back in its place damage-wise vs infantry, perhaps we might want to look at giving it a similar treatment that the Officer got. The lower rate of fire and spread increase have worked together to make it easier to miss targets more than about 50m+ out, but it got nothing at all to compensate. Now the LCG actually feels kind of pointless, other than the fact that it CAN do damage to heavy armour. Unfortunately, even a Rocket soldier out-damages it, so screw that last part. Again, I don't personally believe it needs to do MORE damage, or do its damage faster, but I do believe increasing its magazine size will aid in compensating for the shots you're going to now miss due to RNG. A push to move the LCG magazine to 125 would give it the capability to kill a light vehicle in one magazine, and it would still be several seconds slower than an Officer in current b4 can do it. Even if you up the magazine to 150 it would not change that the TTK would still be a bit lower than the current Officer, which is fine. It doesn't NEED to be better than the Officer at DPS to light armour, as it does have the ability to damage heavy armour. In the long run, being able to fire for longer also helps the LCG vs. heavy armour without just making it do more damage faster, which is GDI's shtick. People seem to forget that how often a weapon has to reload is a MASSIVE factor to how powerful an automatic weapon is. TL;DR: Why does the Chaingun still need 200 rounds a magazine to make it better than the LCG vs. everything that isn't a tank. Also, why can't the LCG get a larger magazine to compensate for the higher spread, not to mention help its TTK vs. armour without making it actually shoot any faster or do more damage?

Chem soldier got haphazardly nerfed vs. buildings in B4 with the way it has to reload before making it to 100 shots now. Again, GDI CAN defend their harv if they choose to, but they actually have to commit to it. It's also easier for GDI to hold the cave late game, since that cave offers no cover for flame tanks. Killing the PP with 3 chems is more a testament to a bad GDI team as opposed to Chem actually being all that great at killing buildings.

GDI can also whore/kill the Nod Refinery with just Grenediers from the bunker. No one ever seems to do it, but Nod doesn't have an early game equivalent. On that same note, GDI Grenadiers/McFarland can kill Chems from on the catwalk with all kinds of uber splash. Viva la asymmetrical sides.

>Think about revising the sidearm system so we don't have SBH's and Engineers being CQC specialists. > Increased Chinook health (or decreased Orca/Apache health, as these units don't make much sense with congruent health) > Increase Gunner's damage to buildings so that he does a solid 10%-12% in a magazine, as opposed to this 9.x% BS that leaves him worse off than the Rocket soldier > Increase LCG magazine size to 150, as the new spread means a lot more shots miss just because of RNG, even if your aim was on point. It also helps emphasize the LCG being worth more than the Chaingun > Chaingun could probably do to have its magazine brought back down from 200 to 100-150. It's good, but right now it's a better choice for owning the tunnels than the LCG, and it kills Light vehicles faster than the LCG, only because its magazine forces it to reload. Damage wise I think they're both alright.

That basically sums up a lot of complaints. It's why I literally start my guide by addressing why neither side is particularly over or underpowered. A lot of complaints were that Nod was SO OVERPOWERED back for beta 1 and 2, then that GDI was soooo OP in B3 and 4. All of those complaints were generally early on after the games release when new people were dominating the servers. It's annoying, but once people realise that you aren't supposed to play both sides the exact same, they eventually learn that they balance each other out quite well. GDI's sort of supposed to feel far stronger in the field, but Nod also forces GDI players to have to watch their base like hawks.

Writing is a favoured pass-time of mine, if it wasn't obvious, so I'll gladly begin poking away at that. I've already got a good chunk of my guide updated with beta 4 stuff, so I can pull from that as well. The question is, which one is more likely going to be used: the cnc wiki, or the gamepedia site?

Indeed, but they ARE just numbers. The Grenadier being better than saay Gunner doesn't take into account that the Grenadier can't defend itself against infantry at far range, nor can it shoot across the map like Gunner. It also has less health so it can't survive a fully mined door (even by detonating them through the wall), which is something that Mobius and Gunner both can do. Oddly enough, the new Grenadier isn't all that bad at CQC though with infantry. The Rocket soldier being the absolute best is the only one I see a TRUE problem with, as it takes away from the asymmetric aspect of Ren, being that both sides have their advantages and disadvantages. GDI is SUPPOSED to be winning the pure damage numbers game, while having the Rocket soldier sit on top means that both GDI and Nod are equal in their abilities to decimate a building. Nod already has the SBH C4 method over GDI; GDI was supposed to have Gunner rushes over Nod, as the Gunner rush is an outright brute-force tactic. I feel like sightly nerfing Gunner against infantry (holy hell he take no effort) by possibly giving him self splash damage or by some other means, would justify us bumping him up to either being more effective than the rocket soldier, or nerf the Rocket soldier a bit vs. buildings. I'd honestly prefer a Gunner that's better at what he's made for, and worse at the things he's not made for. The LCG isn't in need of being any better at building destruction, as he's already really good at what he does (mowing through infantry...though his spread nerf in beta 4 may have been slight overkill). The Volt rifle got a slight nerf with its ROF, but it's still obviously VERY powerful against buildings.