A Balanced Renegade?

[Grimhound]

I was just curious if there was any effort being put into tweaking around some of the things from Renegade to make Renegade X a more balanced and fun gameplay experience. What I mean by this is more the removal or heavy tweaking of things like the Ramjet and super-classes to make it for more fair contest all through games instead of it turning into a Ramjet shooting gallery midway through.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be snipers, I'm just saying I sort of feel like they should just be left more like the $500 Sniper where it requires relative skill VS Pow-pow you're dead. I'd really like to see the gameplay style evolve to fit more into the modern genre. >_>

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

We've talked about Ramjets before and it's quite a sticking point for people who don't play Renegade anymore like yourself.

Though we're keeping the Ramjet's damage ratio the same, because it's the only way without throwing off the balance of the game.

I'll give you an example: Air units. The sole disadvantage to Apaches, Chinooks and Orcas would be their weakness to Ramjets. If Ramjets were a lot weaker to vehicles, they'd have no real disadvantage, as there aren't any anti-air weapons or vehicles. Sure APCs and automatic weapons were affective against aircraft, but Orcas and Apaches were easily able to escape from them.

So ramjets are there to balance out against aircraft. But it's not like they were invincible, if a team of GDI gets Havocs to take down your Apaches, then just get light tanks, flame tanks, stealth tanks, etc. because Havocs are absolutely useless against them.

Everything else in the game is also balanced anyways. There isn't 1 single unit that can dominate everything, the only things Ramjets were able to kill easily were free infantry and light armoured vehicles, but they're weakness would be any vehicle that costs more than 450 credits.

[R315r4z0r]

Speaking of anti-air weapons.. and this was probably asked or mentioned before... are rockets going to be effective against air units? Like tracking?

[Havoc89]

The rocket officers will have tracking capability to make them more useful. Gunner's rocket will remain the same.

[~Aydynbek~]

Isn't the Ramjet more lke the anti material rifle? If it is, then it has to be strong against light stuff.

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

If you read the description for the Ramjet it's actually a rocket-propelled 50 cal round. Pretty lethal if you ask me

[Grimhound]

Hmm. Are you planning to do any sort of speed variation on the infantry based on their loadout?

[GummiBear]

Fobby I understand your reasons for the ramjet, but with the UE3 wont the rockets track better? making things like the mammy, MRLS and well yeah even rocket officers quite good against aircraft compared to in Renegade? also the real problem with the ramjets is that once they find one of those light vehicles its decimate them in a few shots with no chance to fight them back not even the artillery units can fight them back and they are supposed to be long ranged... maybe what about giving ramjets a shorter range, so it is easier to fight them once they begin shooting you, still I am not saying it should be easy to fight them but at least make it possible

[omega79]

imo renegade was pretty good balanced

[epicelite]

[rant]Ramjet = Does 25% the damage it normally does to vehicles, but all rockets get tracking, mammoth tank missiles get a range boost.

Rocket = Tacking, hit's its target 75% of the time.

I mean half the time you are getting shot at by 2 or more ramjets and before you even know which direction it is coming from your dead. You might bring the argument "well the ramjet costs 1000 and the vehicles it can kill only cost like 450 or less" well the Orca/Apache and Tranny cost 700-900. Also the fact that it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS A OBJECT AS LARGE AS A VEHICLE WITH A RAMJET unless you really suck!

A sniper is supposed to be anti infantry, not anti light armored vehicle! "But wait, in real life a ramjet rifle would totally tear through them all!" Sense when is renegade a realistic game?

JUST BECAUSE YOUR REMAKING A GAME DOES NOT MEAN IT HAS TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME! IMPROVE OBVIOUS IMBALANCES! Sniper does not = anti almost everything cheap then it.

Remember the PIC and Railgun, those SHOULD be good against vehicles, and they are. The thing is you cant shoot that tank from across the freaking map. That's what everyone hates about the sniper, you are getting shot from so far away it is impossible to shoot back!

On another note the machine gun on the heli's needs to be toned down too, it is wayyyyyy faster to kill a tank with the machine gun then with the freaking missiles. The missiles are only good against buildings as-is.

[/rant]

In conclusion, Ramjet/500 sniper = 75% less damage to light vehicles, rockets made actually effective. Then maybe people would actually play the rocket officer...

[maty]

In all honesty, if you can't beat them, join them. Its not that hard to get 1000 credits and buy a ramjet . Join the ramjetspam party!

[epicelite]

QUOTE (maty @ Aug 31 2008, 06:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In all honesty, if you can't beat them, join them. Its not that hard to get 1000 credits and buy a ramjet . Join the ramjetspam party! [/b]

Ok lets encourage people to do nothing, then nobody will ever have to lose the game due to losing their base! YEAY...

[Demigan]

QUOTE (epicelite @ Aug 31 2008, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember the PIC and Railgun, those SHOULD be good against vehicles, and they are. The thing is you cant shoot that tank from across the freaking map. That's what everyone hates about the sniper, you are getting shot from so far away it is impossible to shoot back![/b]

'that's what everyone hates about the APC, it's damn good vs infantry if you don't got an awesome anti-vech gun with you, and a good driver can deal INCREDIBLE damage vs vehicles'.

Or how about this one:
'That's what everyone hates about medium tanks, if you have a sniper, your so screwed if he get's near you'

The ramjet is NOT the holy solution everyone thinks it is. I make a sport of it to sneak up on snipers and kill them with not a sniper, but a flachette gun or other fast firing weapon. Snipers have it tough hitting you when they have to evade a STREAM of bullets instead of the 'I stand close to a wall and shoot when i've reloaded' crap snipers do all day. APC's, Medium tanks, light tanks, flamers and stanks are all good vs snipers. And guess what? They are vehicles that are taken regularely! I don't really see the entire issue of 'ramjets rock' as much as you guys seem to. Instead of cowering behind a wall, kill them!
As for the fact that they can deal quite some damage even vs medium tanks compared what most other weapons. The ramjet has 44 bullets or something total, that's 220 damage total vs a medium tank if you shoot it completely empty. But shooting it completely emty takes a while, and with only a quarter of the medium tank gone, he ain't gonna stop. And I would have shot you rather dead if you tried unloading your entire clip on me.

Yours sincerely,
Demigan.

[omega79]

it seems some people cant beat the ramjet ... poor ... there is a conquer unit to everything

the gameplay/balancing is perfect like it is, please do not change that

[epicelite]

QUOTE (Demigan @ Aug 31 2008, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'that's what everyone hates about the APC, it's damn good vs infantry if you don't got an awesome anti-vech gun with you, and a good driver can deal INCREDIBLE damage vs vehicles'.

Or how about this one:
'That's what everyone hates about medium tanks, if you have a sniper, your so screwed if he get's near you'

The ramjet is NOT the holy solution everyone thinks it is. I make a sport of it to sneak up on snipers and kill them with not a sniper, but a flachette gun or other fast firing weapon. Snipers have it tough hitting you when they have to evade a STREAM of bullets instead of the 'I stand close to a wall and shoot when i've reloaded' crap snipers do all day. APC's, Medium tanks, light tanks, flamers and stanks are all good vs snipers. And guess what? They are vehicles that are taken regularely! I don't really see the entire issue of 'ramjets rock' as much as you guys seem to. Instead of cowering behind a wall, kill them!
As for the fact that they can deal quite some damage even vs medium tanks compared what most other weapons. The ramjet has 44 bullets or something total, that's 220 damage total vs a medium tank if you shoot it completely empty. But shooting it completely emty takes a while, and with only a quarter of the medium tank gone, he ain't gonna stop. And I would have shot you rather dead if you tried unloading your entire clip on me.

Yours sincerely,
Demigan.[/b]

>Flamer
>good against infanty

0/10

[maty]

In all fairness you guys are still playing this game, right? Gripes and all? So errr, Westwood must have done something right .

I've never been continually owned by a ramjet, don't see the problem.

[epicelite]

B*****e's don't know bout' the servers I left due to ramjet whores.

[maty]

Someone has some issues, haha, just kidding.

I'm not in charge of this department; but I've never had such issues =].

[Pr0eX]

We REMAKING a game, not making a new one out of scratch.

For sure we improve some parts of Renegade, e.g. with the StealthTank we got a nice targeting-system there like you maybe now it from the rockets in UT3.

We should keep Renegade-balace!

[omega79]

it most likely happen when WG or AIR is down ... so better do not let it die or play marathon servers where a team full of ramjetwhores will lose the game

i do not see any problems with the balancing at all ...

like maty said ... we are playing this game for many years so the balancing can not be bad

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

You see, even if the rocket launchers get their tracking ability (which they will) it and the MRLS still cannot be a sole anti-air weapon since they're not strong enough. The basic Rocket launcher will only lock on if you have it trained on the target for three seconds to balance it with its primary fire.

That's why Westwood made the Ramjet an anti-air weapon, because without them Orcas and Apaches would rule the game if you had more than three of them: they're fast, they're strong, they fly and their only real weakness are each other and ramjets.

Here's how I look at it:

The only vehicles other than flying units that the Ramjet can kill would be the units that are 450 credits less. Don't forget that Ramjets cost 1000 credits.

And lastly, an unbalanced unit would be something that can kill everything. Ramjets can't even kill a base on their own while any other vehicle 450 credits or over can. As I said in my previous post, if your having a problem with the other team getting Ramjets and shooting down your Aircraft, then just get tanks. They're useless against them, and you'll win the game like that.

That's why it's balanced, because in Renegade you need a little bit of everything: snipers to take out aircraft and basic infantry, tanks to take out vehicles and buildings, and repair infantry to back up friendly vehicles. If any team just got one of the three, they'd fall against an organized team.

[Grimhound]

Yes, but why does the Ramjet even need to exist in the game? There's already one Sniper Rifle.

I understand you guys are making a /remake/, but I personally feel that certain things could be twisted around or improved to prevent common circumstances that were found in Renegade from plaguing your project. Far, far too often Renegade would come down to a team minus Barracks getting plagued by talentless (yes, talentless) sods that just plow Ramjets from across the map into their base, preventing them from doing anything and in essence ending the map due to half the team quitting. Sniping should take some skill, as it's a damn effective tool in a game like Renegade where each kill potentially robs the other team of $1000.

I also hope Flamethrowers, Chem Sprayers, and Grenade Launchers also work a lot better than they do in Ren, as well as hoping that shotguns and railguns have decreasing damage over distance instead of just having a distance they can fire from.

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

QUOTE

Yes, but why does the Ramjet even need to exist in the game? There's already one Sniper Rifle.[/b]

The standard sniper rifle isn't that affective against expensive infantry (other than headshots), it takes about 4 hits to kill an expensive character. The Ramjet's a better version of that sniper, and it's there to balance out against aircraft, but its disadvantage to the standard sniper rifle is that its tracer is easy to see and it's more expensive.

QUOTE

Far, far too often Renegade would come down to a team minus Barracks getting plagued by talentless (yes, talentless) sods that just plow Ramjets from across the map into their base, preventing them from doing anything and in essence ending the map due to half the team quitting.[/b]

If there's no Barracks, then buy an APC, Medium Tank, or Mammoth Tank. Problem solved, and the enemy team is embarrassed and useless.

QUOTE

Sniping should take some skill, as it's a damn effective tool in a game like Renegade where each kill potential robs the other team of $1000.[/b]

It also costs the enemy a hefty load of money to buy this weapon; as it is the most expensive one in the game. It doesn't take much to kill a sniper, even with the most basic weapons - even if you don't have defenses, a weapons factory, AND a barracks, 3 soldiers together can usually take out the average Sakura when at a good range. Chances are, they spent all of their money on that Sakura.

One thing we are doing though is increasing the reload time to 4 seconds for the Ramjet. This slightly longer reload time gives a chance for Aircraft to get away during the reload time, or give a chance for the light vehicles like an Artillery to spot the sniper and pound it during its reload time.

QUOTE

I also hope Flamethrowers, Chem Sprayers, and Grenade Launchers also work a lot better than they do in Ren[/b]

Yes and all of that is being worked on. We've got some great ideas on the three weapons above to make them more affective in certain scenarios, but still balanced. Like the Flamethrower, it was pretty useless against infantry. We'll be shedding light on the weapons as soon as we show them off.

[Grimhound]

QUOTE (NEFobbyGEN @ Aug 31 2008, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The standard sniper rifle isn't that affective against expensive infantry (other than headshots), it takes about 4 hits to kill an expensive character. The Ramjet's a better version of that sniper, and it's there to balance out against aircraft, but its disadvantage to the standard sniper rifle is that its tracer is easy to see and it's more expensive.[/b]

Well, isn't the point of a sniper to be covert and sneaky while getting those headshots? Maybe employ some system where the Sniper can crouch to gain some sort of visibility detractor so he can strike from relative safety.

I personally feel the more expensive things like the PIC should have some speed penalty while others like the Rifleman should be generally more swift.

[Pendullum]

If we did that, it wouldn't be renegade any more....

If we reduce the speed of PICs and railguns, then all it needs to take them down is an APC running them over, 1000 credits wasted to hit it twice before it gets you ^^

[Grimhound]

QUOTE (Pendullum @ Aug 31 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we did that, it wouldn't be renegade any more....

If we reduce the speed of PICs and railguns, then all it needs to take them down is an APC running them over, 1000 credits wasted to hit it twice before it gets you ^^[/b]

Maybe make that big Zone Combat Suit uncrushable/tibimmune?

I dunno, I just feel you have an opportunity to evolve the gameplay that it will never get again.

[MightyBOB]

Ramjets are for skill-less cowards. (Unless they're being used to clean out a severe Arty/MLRS/Orca/Apache infestation.)

I do believe though that we should be incorporating some of the changes made in server-side points/damage mods in Renegade as stock values in Ren-X. For example in vanilla Renegade the Ramjet gets a stupid amount of points for hitting a tank. Before n00bstories adopted a points mod, a team could be winning (let's say GDI on C&C_Islands) but then only 5 members of the opposing team busts outs the Ramjets and start tank sniping and can easily cheat the other team out of victory by sitting way out of a tank's range where there is no possibility of retaliation.

[R315r4z0r]

Just because there is a rifle with a scope on it doesn't make it a covert sniper rifle. The Ramjet is a jet-propelled anti-material weapon and just because it is good against infantry, doesn't mean its primary purpose is, and is limited to, taking out infantry. The Ramjet is fine and it should stay as it is. The 4 second reload time is good enough to balance it out better.

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

QUOTE

For example in vanilla Renegade the Ramjet gets a stupid amount of points for hitting a tank. Before n00bstories adopted a points mod, a team could be winning (let's say GDI on C&C_Islands) but then only 5 members of the opposing team busts outs the Ramjets and start tank sniping and can easily cheat the other team out of victory by sitting way out of a tank's range where there is no possibility of retaliation.[/b]

That's another thing I agree with. You won't be getting that many points for merely shooting at a tank and not damaging it with the Ramjet Rifle in Renegade X. I think everyone agrees with that point.

QUOTE

Well, isn't the point of a sniper to be covert and sneaky while getting those headshots?[/b]

You must remember that Renegade is a fast paced game. There's a lot of moving and jumping, and the maps are small so most sniper battles are close quarters and not exactly realistic. Therefore headshots are harder in Renegade than in slower paced games, and the average level player does more body shots than headshots.

QUOTE

I dunno, I just feel you have an opportunity to evolve the gameplay that it will never get again.[/b]

You see, Renegade X is simply reincarnating the game into a new engine. We're fixing what we feel is broken in the game and adding more features (like lots of server side options) but things like the Ramjet aren't a complete flaw in the game. The 4 second reload for our Ramjet and a decrease in points when hitting vehicles, we feel that's enough to fix any problems with it.

We still want to keep that same gameplay Renegade has though, it's far more balanced than most other games out there and there are still many thousands of people that enjoy playing it.

[omega79]

im not sure but it might be possible to use renegade-x-mutators like you can use ut3-mutators (instagib for ex) so someone could probably make such a mutator to remove the ramjet or what ever

mutators would be great cuz of their small size and the autodownloadfeature of UT3

[GummiBear]

the things is you can still stand right next to your base and kill the hardest hitting enemy vech (arty and MRLS long before the enemy have a chance to get within range and once they do get in range chances are all their arties/MRLS's are dead and the ramjets can easily retreat into their base to refill and then go out again continue what they were doing...

[scensorECHO]

but the reload time on the ramjet is larger now, so the arty's/MRLS' can now getaway faster. and when the havoc/sakura's refilling in the base.. you can get away... if you have a balanced team you'll have teammates attacking with vehicles/infantry that aren't vulnerable to ramjet fire...

its even. the reload is enough to perfect it and if its too much theyll change it back.

leave it how it is please. remake the game, you're doing fantastic

[R315r4z0r]

QUOTE (GummiBear @ Aug 31 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the things is you can still stand right next to your base and kill the hardest hitting enemy vech (arty and MRLS long before the enemy have a chance to get within range and once they do get in range chances are all their arties/MRLS's are dead and the ramjets can easily retreat into their base to refill and then go out again continue what they were doing...[/b]

Thats where team play comes in. If you just have artilleries/MRLS, then obviously one of their counters will make short work of them. That's why you need other units to stop the Ramjets.

[epicelite]

Renegade is not about team play, it is about buying 10 of the same exact thing and rushing in before they know whats going on!

[GummiBear]

QUOTE (R315r4z0r @ Sep 1 2008, 05:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats where team play comes in. If you just have artilleries/MRLS, then obviously one of their counters will make short work of them. That's why you need other units to stop the Ramjets.[/b]

but the thing is the arties and MRLS is also the highest targets and pretty hard to hide anywhere, so even with a diversed team those ramjets can kill the arties and MRLS pretty easy due to weak armor and impossible to miss targets, and those units are the hardest hitters and supposed to be long range weaponry, yet they can be killed sooooo easy from a even longer range than they can shoot at, it simply makes no sense to me

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

It makes sense to me since a Ramjet is over double the price of an Arty or an MRLS. Also, the Ramjet is their only real weakness - Arties are very great units otherwise with great range, firepower, and splash damage. With a technician backing them up they're very tough to beat. Plus with the extended reload it gives that Arty an extra shot against a sniper threat.

[epicelite]

Ok fine lets continue to have an overpowerd gun and call it "balanced" just because westwood was unable to patch it before EA came in and shut them down.

Lets continue to have this character that can kill every infantry unit in 2 hits from across the map and HEY! Why not let him kill the vehicles too? I mean really that way the only thing that can kill him is another sniper! WOW THIS SURE IS FUN WHY NOT JUST MAKE SNIPERS THE ONLY CHAR LOL? THAT WAY NOBODY CAN COMPLAIN LETS MAKE THIS SNIPERS ONLY LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

What I am saying is.

Don't even bother to make other characters because with this new no-lag engine everyone is just going to be a sniper anyway.

I mean this is like why I stopped playing Unreal 3 and have no played in sense. The longbow arvil, IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID AND IT FREAKING AUTO TRACKS! 1 hit kill on all but the most heavy of tanks/one hit aircraft. GEE SURE IS FAIR I CAN STAND OVER HERE ON THIS HILL AND U CANT EVEN SEE ME IM SO FAR AWAY BUT IF I HOLD DOWN THIS BUTTON IT FINDS YOUR CAR/HELI FOR ME WOW I SURE AM SKILLED!

Only diff with the sniper is you have to find it on your own but that's not hard because all of renegades maps are SO SMALL!

Yes it would take a little more changing of things to make it balanced(if that's what you call it) when toning down sniper VS vehic damage. In the end it would be totally worth it. I am not saying make the sniper completly useless against light vehic's but I am saying make it so that the sniper would be best to choose to shoot at the infantry and not the artillery. That's what a sniper is for killing infantry.

SNIPER: Less effective against vehics.

ROCKETS: Auto tracking that takes little, but still some, effort to engage. More damage VS light armor. Rockets get UNLIMITED range when locked onto a target. Do not curve sharply.

PIC/Railgun: Longer range,

Mammoth tusks: Should devastate aircraft/more range/light tracking.

BAWWWW NOW THE SNIPER IS USELESS I CANT KILL THEIR HUMVEE!

Well should of thought about that before buying the sniper to to shoot fucking humvee's dick face. Get the freaking PIC if you want to stand their and shoot their tanks like a n00b but now you cant also kill the infantry as easy with no scope.

Try to fallow along with me here.

It doesn't make a balanced game when the only way to combat aircraft/light vehicles costs 1000 and is meant to kill infantry.

It does make it balanced to fix the sniper, add more ways to kill the aircraft/light vehicle.

It doesn't make a balanced game to leave the sniper overpowered vs aircraft/light vehicles, then add more ways to kill the aircraft/light vehicle with tracking rockets.

It does make it balanced when the sniper is able to be thwarted by a Humvee to get past him.

It doesn't make a balanced game when the expensive sniper is able to be killed by a cheap vehicle.

It does make it balanced when the sniper is able to hide in an area that the light vehicle/aircraft cannot get to.

It doesn't make a balanced game when the light vehicle/aircraft is able to easily kill everything and then get away when it is down to low health.

It does make it balanced the light vehicle/aircraft has extremely low health and is able to be killed by a few sniper shots before it does.

It doesn't make a balanced game when the light vehicle/aircraft is not able to even to get in a position to do anything because of a sniper.

It does make it balanced when the light vehicle/aircraft is able to be destroyed by a couple of rockets that could potentially be seen incoming and avoided by turning back before it gets to where it wants.

It doesn't make a balanced game when it turns into a "shootin' gallery" just because the other team lost their bar/refinery and can only afford a few light vehicles.

It does make it balanced when you are unable to get anything besides a light vehicle, but you can use that to get close to the sniper and attempt to kill them.

Yes it would make the game different from the original, but if you want it to be exactly the same why bother remaking it at all. Redoing something is not just so it can look better, you should improve on the original with changes. Change can just as easily be a good thing as it can a bad thing.

You claim you want to improve the game, but refuse to put in a little effort and fix an obvious imbalance in the "rock-paper-scissors" of things.

PS: The top half of this post isn't really worth reading.

[Demigan]

What I do sometimes is 'snipe the snipers'.

There are lots and lots of 'typical' places a sniper hides. And those places usually have a high position, and a good vision of a large area of land.

And that's their mistake.

What you do is simply move stealthily towards some cover in their line of sight. And then you just start shooting at them, preferably with a 500 sniper. By the time they realise where you are, you got them heavily damaged or dead. It's usually very easy getting headshots then.

The reason why the ramjet is so powerfull against aircraft and artillery units is because they are very low armored. And a 50 cal sniper rifle can tear through 20 inches of steel.

A 50 cal ROCKET PROPULSED sniper can tear through a lot more. As both artillery and aircraft have a lot of vital equipment that should not be damaged at any circumstance, it's small wonder that when you fire a ramjet at them they deal such massive damage.

Have you ever seen a good artillery rush? one technician can keep an arty alive for a long time vs 2 ramjets. The ramjets will slowly kill the arty, but that's good enough for the arty to heavily damage/kill the snipers. With the 4 second reload time, one technician IS enough to keep the artillery alive.

If there's 7 artillery with technicians behind it, tough luck on you but your screwed if you take ramjets, even with the reload time you have now. You need some medium tanks to draw fire, something like an APC to try and kill the technicians, and a whole lot of guts and money. Ramjets just get killed vs that. It's better to take 4 PIC's and shoot simultaniously, as that's the only way to deal enough damage vs artillery's to kill them in one go.

The reason why arty's are so dangerous now, is because they deal just about the most damage in the game, along with MRLS's. And if you take other vehicles, and back them up with technicians or hotwires, then it's pretty powerfull, but much more prone to lose to coördinated attacks then arty's. The advantage of THOSE vehicles however, is that you don't have to repair as vigourously as the artillery units if you have a good defencive position. And you don't get sniped to death.

Yes, we need different weapons then the ramjet to kill aircraft and artillery units, but the ramjet should stay quite powerfull against them, perhaps even as strong as it is now. The 4 second reload time is more then enough to tone down the power. There's millions of ramjet snipers I would have killed if they had to reload just that bit longer. 500 snipers will be a much more even choice if you can't shoot as fast, as surpressive fire is one of the reasons why snipers are so good. If you miss your first 4 bullets, and you have 4 seconds of time where you cannot threaten them, you will get heavily damaged if not killed.

Yours sincerely,

Demigan.

[GummiBear]

what good is 4 seconds reload then if you got 2 or maybe 4 ramjets? then they can shoot every 2 or even every single second second... you want to kill vechs get a pic or raveshaw in exchange they are not as good on long range but you can quickly decimate those vechs, where ramjets ATM can kill vechs just as effective as the raveshaw and kill inf even better so why get a raveshaw? and with rockets tracking they should be very good against the helis really, and well Renegade is supposed to be about teamwork right? good then lets encourage teamwork by making units good at specific task but bad at others then you need to get a team consisting of more units rather than a team consisting of a lot of same unit that can decimate everything... if you make the ramjet (more like the n00bjet) ineffective against all vech you need some raveshaw to battle vechs, some rocket officers or other units with tracking rockets to battle aircraft and then some thing like either a sniper or something with an MG to battle the enemy infs

[Pendullum]

I would like to see how long it would take the ramjet to take out a med next to a railgun. You guys are blowing the ramjet way out of proportion, yes it can score a lot of points, but that's partly due to a bug where you get more points for attacking green health vehicles. Yes it's good against aircraft, it's damn right deadly to them, but at the end of the day, a good player can overcome a ramjet n00b easily, I've done it many times with a shotgunner, and even an orca.

Ramjets are not invincible, and the people complaining about them is just fed up of being killed by them and giving up instead of sneaking around behind them and blowing the backs of their heads off ^^ I think increasing the reload time of the RJ is good enough, nothing else needs to be changed, or else nobody would buy them at all, the 500 sniper rifle, though not as powerful, has invisible instant hit bullets and they'd just be whored instead.

If I were to choose between a sniper and a ravashaw to take down an orca, I'd pick the ravashaw, they're much more damaging to the orca, even if there's only 1 shot per clip.

[scensorECHO]

(i'm with pendullum on this one. i was writing in response to GummiBear)

but the ramjets supposed to be good against light armored vehicles.. thats why you spent 500 more credits on it. so you can fight off those light armored vehicles that try to attack you or your base. if you changed them itd just be a more expensive sniper rifle.. thats not what the ramjet is. its made to be an antimaterial rifle. if theres so many ramjets shooting at your vehicles anyways why would you get that one? just buy a heavy vehicle so you don't have to worry about ramjets hurting you so much.. the point is that ramjet are as strategic as your counterstrike is. if the enemy rushes in with helos then people can get ramjets to attack them, cause really thats the only way to fight back against a rush like that. now after they all spent their money on these ramjets you should switch your tactics to something more useful, like stanks or flamers so you don't have to worry about the ramjets anymore. seriously, this games balanced extremely well.

[omega79]

QUOTE (epicelite @ Sep 1 2008, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Renegade is not about team play, it is about buying 10 of the same exact thing and rushing in before they know whats going on![/b]

didn't you exactly describe 1 way to show teamplay?
isn't coordinating 10 players to buy gunners teamplay?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[[NE]Fobby[GEN]]

I agree with Pendullum here. I think people are blowing this a little out of proportion.

Ramjets may be good against Artillery, but if the Artillery is teamplaying and has a tech repairing him, a Ramjet won't be able to kill it most of the time. The repairing would give the Arty enough time to kill that sniper or unload seven or eight rounds at it, causing it to retreat. The other thing about Ramjets is that their tracer is easy to see, so if you're in an Artillery or an Apache, you know exactly where that sniper is right at their first shot. That and the four second reload time.

Besides, Ramjets are expensive. If the enemy team gets them to fight your Orcas, then just get Medium tanks. They suck against any ground vehicle costing over 450 credits, and the team won't have enough money to defend against you or want to change to engineers to repair against your tank attack.

The reality is it's balanced. The sole weakness to aircraft and the artillery vehicles would be the Ramjet, but other than that they're already really good. I don't think this aspect of the game is unbalanced, like some other aspects that we want to fix. Something that has a lot of ammo per clip and does great damage to everything would be a cheap weapon, but a glorified sniper that can only kill infantry and light armoured vehicles isn't a problem in the game.

The increase in load time and decrease in points when using the weapon is more than enough to fix any problem the Ramjet has. The damage for the ramjet's been okay with me, okay with the team, and okay with the thousands that have played/still play C&C Renegade regularly. I'm sorry that we can't please everyone, but literally everyone has a different idea on how the game should be changed or 'fixed'.

[R315r4z0r]

The Ramjet is not overpowered, it is an anti-material rifle that does its job fine. If you left Renegade because of this gun, than that is your problem. It was perfectly fine and balanced with it in. In fact I believe it would become more unbalanced WITHOUT it.

[HotSWAT]

maybe snipers should be given less health than some other units...this makes them look for more sheltered places to snipe from, and in a confrontation, they won't be so hard to kill.

BUT....although this suggestion seems like a great idea from my point of view, the thing is...

the game was balanced in the first place...and changing things may shift the balance of play, totally changing the game I loved to play

and i would be very wary of ANY changed made

[epicelite]

It was not balanced in the first place because you can 75% of things in the game from atop some hill where it is hard as fuck to shoot back.

[GummiBear]

you all make it sound so easy to kill them it really is not sneak around and kill them with a shotgunner... yeah right just one problem in 90% of the cases that means going through their base, as they most times stand in their base entrance, another problem is that they often are on higher ground then the vech making it hard to target them, and well having a tech/hotwire or engi with it, well if it is one on foot it will ONLY delay the killing of the vech by 4 secs (they just killl that engi/tech/hotwire first) far from enough to survive to hit any of the enemy base, and should it be yourself that is the tech/engi/hotwire well if you are GDI your vech most likely get hijacked by an SBH instead...

[R315r4z0r]

You guys keep bringing problems up saying it is going to happen when I have in fact never ran into them in Renegade. I deal with Ramjets all the time, it is not that hard. It is just part of the game.

If you change ramjets and make them weaker, then you are upsetting the balance of the game. The point of the mod is to remake Renegade and fine tune some small adjustments. Everything relating to balance, hit/damage ratios, ect should remain the same. If you start editing that stuff then the mod will no longer be a remake of Renegade, just a mod of Renegade on another engine.

[epicelite]

Well just add a option for my server then servers

"[]Reduce ramjet VS vehicle damage"

[R315r4z0r]

I could agree with this. There were some mods in Renegade, including Renegade Resurrection, that made Ramjets to Shrapnel damage to light vehicles. I would support a server-side option to change this.