[Suggestion] Mining

[Riou Insuiko]

Just a bit of a suggestion with the influx of new players in the game. Proximity mining has been a bit of an issue that I've noticed, exclusively from 'new' players, in recent weeks.

The main issue is that, despite the personalized warning when you are overmining (the buzzer+message), people still do not understand what is happening. Compounding this problem, I don't think there's adequate warning to the rest of the team that this is happening. The over-mining message is minimal and can be easily passed by from crate messages. This being the case, unless you are out in the field to look specifically at mines placed improperly to read who placed them, it can be difficult to know who is responsible.

I think it would be good if overmining messages could be displayed equally & to everyone. That annoying buzzer, the big red message. That way it will be easy to identify who is doing it and much easier to contact that person to try and explain to them the general strategies of mining. Or, if you are ignored, making it even easier to pinpoint who is doing it and encourages the rest of the team to actually vote when it comes to banning the miner, since they will have received the same warnings each time that player has overmined.

In addition I think that the team's commander should have the power to remove all teammate's mines manually if desired. Say there is 1 mine poorly placed but 4 others at the proper place outside of a building. Rather than removing all other mines, it would seem ideal if they could right click remove said mine. Right now the choices are to remove everything else or make the person who placed the mine disarm it (which is much harder than it sounds).

I don't mind explaining things to new players at all but given that they seldom read the game/team chat, I've noticed that the private message catches their attention much more often. It'd be nice if it were a bit easier to figure out who needs that explanation.

Thanks

Edited July 14, 2020 by Riou Insuiko

[Mystic~]

The need to communicate mining in this game is an unsolved issue as old as the game itself and it frequently the system changes in response to finding new or better ways or places to place them down. The holo place holders was a great idea, but maybe it could go a step further and remove the need for a player to lay the critical building mines.... iIf necessary or required mines were to automatically spawn in buildings then there could be an extra pool of mines that are left over and considered fair use for whoever wants or needs to use them with no risk of being shouted at or unintentionally hampering efforts. I also don't see why something so potentially costly to the team should be the pressure or responsibility of some individuals. I like the idea of a banish mines command function, but the commander role in public games is becoming a burden to look after admin jobs like mines and harvesters.

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It'd be nice if it were a bit easier to figure out who needs that explanation.

What if new players had a tag in their name for a period of time. [n] for newbie, which expires after x number of games or 60 days etc.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Mystic~

[Riou Insuiko]

It's been an issue for a long time that's for sure. I'm sure that I'm not even 100% knowledgeable about what maps have jump skips for things like the barracks sandbags and which don't. Basically when you can use 3 mines at the bags instead of 3 at each door. 

I'm not too sure about the suggestion of automatically mining doors. I like the idea of being able to potentially take out a teams infantry structure and killing all of their hotties/techs effectively locking them out of mined buildings for the rest of the game. To some degree there is an element of strategy around where the mines can afford to be placed. It's possible that you'll want one extra mine at one door instead of another. Stuff like that. 

It's really a shame that placing mines can be so impactful. Such that new players run the risk of getting yelled at if they place them 'incorrectly'. Some newb can place 6 mines in a tunnel and think they're making a good play but at the same time leave a building wide open for a spy to just walk on in. I'm guilty of getting frustrated and commenting about it here and there. Mainly when it happens constantly. Currently these days when I join a server for the first match of the day I end up having to re-mine the entire base maybe 7/10 times because some people only place 2 mines at each door, too many at the field, in wrong places, etc. 

In some ways I like that the commander has some extra responsibilities and don't personally mind having to, well, manage the team. Stuff like having additional control over the mines isn't a huge deal to me, but I can see why it might be a bit daunting especially for a new player to try for the first time. I'll have to agree with you though that the commander role currently has a bit of work to do beyond just buffing and sending out spy planes, it can be argued how good or bad that is.

In any case, maybe it's possible to highlight mines on the map menu? Your teams, I mean. In that case you could see at a glance if there were rogue mines placed in random spots if the count was in question. I don't know if the maps are high enough resolution to really put that much information on there though.

[Mystic~]

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Some newb can place 6 mines in a tunnel and think they're making a good play but at the same time leave a building wide open for a spy to just walk on in.

Precisely, the mining system is the most broken mechanic in the game, and something new is only done because someone tries something new and has the confidence to stand by and say 'this works' and get everyone else to follow along. I've advocated replacing it with laser trip wires or auto turrets and think they should be a permanent feature of a building that can still be circumvented with repair guns or EMPs. Without advanced engineers the game also likewise breaks down, I feel this is a huge loss to any team when a hon/bar is destroyed and it forces particular members into camping with that class for the rest of the game.

I know they've recently talked about bringing in mines in Earth Breakers another FPS-RTS game, so I'm going to keep an eye on what defensive gameplay mechanic or system they decide to introduce, as they're going to reinvent the square wheel potentially.

I would potentially let map owners choose where mine placeholders existed, but in my earlier suggestion there is still scope for using the remaining free mines in instances where they might be needed. The instructions could then be relaxed to say "place extra mines in entrances and choke points to defend your teams base."

Edited July 22, 2020 by Mystic~
typo

[roweboat]

Yes actually I was just going to ask, since I only played Earthbreakers for like 5 minutes,

 

I was wondering what they developed for base / building defense?

[isupreme]

In earthbreakers it was very. ...   we dont care......with minimal defense....... destruction of a building did not matter much .   

How do i say this?   When you destroyed a building it did not really matter.    It could be rebuilt.    The destruction only mattered as a Total amount. When a team Totally destroyed the opposition time and time again.... then it was a win.

You could buy defensive structures like Walls    (kinda cool)   and turrets.  (mostly useless except in times of need)   But nothing really stopped you from running into the enemy base and shooting around, killing the zombies....except the spawning of the enemy which did not like you there.

Additionally you could repair.... but it was a lame example of what RenX does.

EXCEPT!  It was cool that you could lock on Repair beam and it would even Curve!!! and follow your recipient!  Awesome.

Edited July 22, 2020 by isupreme

[Mystic~]

Well presently they don't have any way of stopping infantry from accessing a building and running amok, you either catch them on the way in or you have to go hunting rats in corridors and on roof tops, which is frustrating. On one of the most vulnerable sides you can purchase a defence turret, either an artillery cannon for tanks or a more rapid machine gun cannon which is useful but not fool proof as you can dodge it or run past it using stems. However they have already spoken about introducing mines and I think the fan base prefer destroying an MCT in a building, so it could be pretty similar to Ren-X. Losing a building really matters, they're very expensive to rebuild and you can be overrun during that time, plus you lose your income or ability to buy tanks, so it's the same as Ren-X, except I do like the fact someone can save up and re-build it, but it takes time and resources to do this. I also like that manual defence turrets can be rebuilt instead of just a one time structure that can go down easily, they're a lot more powerful than the one's in Ren-X on Whiteout or Tomb.

Trip wires, like Deus Ex... preferred choice, vote for trip wires, trip wires with explosives if necessary, let people put mines on the battlefield.

[Quinc3y]

By the way, mining was well analyzed by boxes in this topic almost 2 years ago:

 

[Madkill40]

On 7/14/2020 at 11:23 PM, Riou Insuiko said:

That way it will be easy to identify who is doing it and much easier to contact that person to try and explain to them the general strategies of mining.

This is so heavily dependent on approach and I don't think somebody else's poor approach should deny your whole idea to prioritize the warning - however bear this in mind that some people think explaining involves an unprofessional approach which usually includes slurs and demotivating assholery. So all players would need to ban that player before the overminer if it comes down to it.  

On 7/14/2020 at 11:23 PM, Riou Insuiko said:

Or, if you are ignored, making it even easier to pinpoint who is doing it and encourages the rest of the team to actually vote when it comes to banning the miner, since they will have received the same warnings each time that player has overmined.

Some players could be replacing building mines and gets banned for overmining, despite having to deal with the real overminer in their own player-like goodguy fashion.

But "pinpointing" could just mean that any mines placed over the limit could appear as a transparent Proximity-C4 mine on the overview map (NOT THE RADAR, unless they're forcibly linked then scaling them is as important as the translucency) 

That way players can see where the over-mining mines have been placed on the map. [Which will lead to a steadier debate and an ease to communicate 'mine etiquette & strategy'] which will also require discipline towards what exists already, poor approaches from players' idea of explaining something involves demotivating language. Always be professional when explaining anything, its good practice and a transferable skill.  

On 7/14/2020 at 11:23 PM, Riou Insuiko said:

In addition I think that the team's commander should have the power to remove all teammate's mines manually if desired. Say there is 1 mine poorly placed but 4 others at the proper place outside of a building. Rather than removing all other mines, it would seem ideal if they could right click remove said mine. Right now the choices are to remove everything else or make the person who placed the mine disarm it (which is much harder than it sounds).

The teams commander can remove any mines not placed in or on a building.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Madkill40

[Riou Insuiko]

23 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

The teams commander can remove any mines not placed in or on a building.

Manually as if they were your own mines? I don't remember that working. For me it also makes sense that you should be able to remove mines placed on buildings too. Such as mines placed on pp/wf/strip/ref ramps and things like that. At that point I suppose you could just remove all of that building's mines but manual adjustment seems like an added bonus. Maybe I'm misremembering but honestly I really don't remember being able to remove mines that I didn't place manually. Maybe I'm misremembering?