Silo and Comms Camping Stealth Units

[Mystic~]

One of the problems which I think is a bit unfair is the ability of invisible SBH to be able to camp tiberium silo's and tech buildings like the communications centre with a rep tool, so I want to suggest that silo's and com centre buildings should cause a disruption effect that interferes with and de-cloak the suits, radar arrays and tiberium radiation disrupts the cloak technology if you like, even adjacent to silo buildings. It makes camping the comm centre and a silo that little bit more difficult as they won't be able to stand near without being seen.

This is a problem on a number of maps.

Tell me what you think?

Edited April 7, 2020 by Mystic~

[Cheesemonk]

I don't find this to be a problem. Once an SBH starts using the rep tool they become visible, and a full charge of rep tool is only enough to neutralize, not capture, a %100hp tech building. So they have to break stealth twice in order to capture one. In addition, a global audio statement plays when they start capturing "GDI Tech Building Under Attack" So you know what is going on, and have a solid 30-40 seconds to respond, with the SBH visible for most of that time.

I wouldn't mind additional game mechanics that neutralize stealth (like emps but with larger radius and minus the freeze on tanks, or special googles as a item you can purchase) but I don't think tech buildings are the problem. If anything, I find SBH to be weaker when camping tech buildings then when preforming other tasks around the field: picking off hotwires, c4ing MRLS, abushing snipers, ect.

[roweboat]

personally I think the rep gun is weak enough that it isnt a significant problem if the other team makes it priority to capture the building.

[Mystic~]

I think the rep tool gains strength as veteran stages upgrade, you can capture it with one charge, the problem is that GDI can't always get to a silo, and if they do capture it, they are then forced to camp the tech building, because if they don't then an sbh will usuallt come along and re-capture it once the player(s) have left. This happens on Outposts all the time for both the silo and comms centre. I've also tried this from both sides and it's super frustrating for GDI as they can't do the same. I thought some sort of radiation or energy field around the buildings could drop the cloak when getting within a certain distance.

[crazfulla]

Why would you want to take away Nod's main advantage? SBH are fairly easy to kill and will only be able to kill you quickly if you are standing still like a potato. Beside the point if there are 4-5 sbh guarding the silo, you could just let them havee it and put the 4-5 players on GDI into a rush - silo won't mean jack if their base is dead.

[Mystic~]

Sorry, but you didn't read my original post and your response makes little sense.

[crazfulla]

I did read it and it will make sense if you can read and comprehend it.

[Mystic~]

The original post is about SBH being able to remain invisible and camp tech buildings, it's a real problem on some maps. I don't know why you would open with a question that was immediately answered, nobody needs 4-5 SBH to camp the silo, they just need one with a tool who can then immediately take it back, unless GDI is to permanently camp each tech building to prevent it. You didn't really offer a solution to the problem and your comment is just aggravating and unhelpful. I feel you didn't even understand the problem before you commented, I only want the stealth suits to be revealed around tech buildings to a certain radius, not everywhere.

[Cheesemonk]

On 5/8/2020 at 2:29 PM, Mystic~ said:

I think the rep tool gains strength as veteran stages upgrade, you can capture it with one charge,

You could be right about veterancy upgrading the rep tool, I'm not sure.

On 5/8/2020 at 2:29 PM, Mystic~ said:

the problem is that GDI can't always get to a silo, and if they do capture it, they are then forced to camp the tech building, because if they don't then an sbh will usuallt come along and re-capture it once the player(s) have left. This happens on Outposts all the time for both the silo and comms centre.

Let me rephrase this sentence to provide my perspective:

the problem is that Nod can't always get to a silo, and if they do capture it, they are forced to camp the tech building, because if they don't then a GDI player will usually come along and re-capture it once the player(s) have left. this happens on Outposts all the time for both the silo and comms center.

SBH makes the problem of getting to the silo easier, so perhaps "the problem is that Nod can't always get to a silo" isn't a fair statement, but Patch makes the problem of winning the fight once you are there easier. so the "if they do capture it" is easier for GDI.

On 5/8/2020 at 2:29 PM, Mystic~ said:

I've also tried this from both sides and it's super frustrating for GDI as they can't do the same.

not sure what you mean by "do the same." GDI can camp a strategic building just as easily as NOD.

in a 1v1 fight, the SBH will have the element of surprise, sure, but apart from that, I would prefer having Patch's Gun in a 1v1 firefight. The A-symmetry of NOD vs GDI is designed that way.

I suppose I don't understand where your frustration is directed towards. Do you feel that camping is an inherently annoying or cancerous strategy? Or do you feel that GDI cannot compete with stealth mechanics? i.e. that the A-symmetry of NOD vs GDI is poorly balanced?

[Fffreak9999]

25 minutes ago, Cheesemonk said:

I think the rep tool gains strength as veteran stages upgrade, you can capture it with one charge,

Just to confirm this:
Vet does improve the repair tool power.

• Recruit - 1.0x
• Veteran - 1.11111x (17)
• Elite - 1.22222x (19)
• Heroic - 1.33333x (21)

[Mystic~]

A single SBH with a rep tool can usually reach a tech building without being seen or detected, without being picked off by a sniper from distance and can spy on every other approaching GDI unit. Even by way of staking out a tech building it's not necessary for them to be directly on it, they can hang around nearby, and they don't necessarily even need to engage a GDI player in order to keep the building as I believe it's more effective to keep re-capturing unless they run into an engineer or hotwire trying the same job in which I would personally try to take them out.

You must have surely played a game on Outposts where GDI reach a point where they are at a huge economic and strategic disadvantage and can't recover because of being base locked and they can't get either of these structures. I tried the camping strategy before the ddos stuff started with an SBH with a tool, was very each to get to the silo via the beach, capture it, a Gunner came over to capture it and then I just circled around for a while, eventually he was killed by a stealth lined head shot with the laser rifle and I re-captured it for the team. As Nod, we actually lost the game, but I think it's because we didn't maintain a harvester economy and allowed GDI to keep the field and eventually roll the base.

I like the stealth feature of the SBH and I'm not calling for it to be removed, but I think some sort of interference around silo's or tech buildings to drop the cloak would be a welcome addition. I'm not the only person who has complained about this pattern of SBH staking out tech buildings on certain maps and I've also suggested that the spy plane should partially reveal hidden stealth units.

The only map I can think of where Nod are constantly base locked and cannot use stealth effectively would be Field.

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I suppose I don't understand where your frustration is directed towards. Do you feel that camping is an inherently annoying or cancerous strategy? Or do you feel that GDI cannot compete with stealth mechanics? i.e. that the A-symmetry of NOD vs GDI is poorly balanced?

Both, I think. 

Might be worth asking @Ryz to share his views as I know he's posted on this as well in the past.

[crazfulla]

Storm in a teacup... the simple solution is to learn how to counter SBH... there are a few ways you can do thjis... Patch is pretty decent and similarly priced. But a mobius will win a fight with a SBH every time unless your aim is potato. If you know they like to camp then actively look for them... don't stand still and make yourself an easy target for SBH (and not to mention snipers).

[Tytonium]

Outposts is crazily unbalanced, you can't even bring it into the equation.

Although I do agree camping a tech building with a sbh can be a bit unfair for GDI. 

I mean we have all had the moment as GDI where you go up to a tech building, and you just know there's a sbh watching you, waiting for you to start capping. You can run around like an idiot to look for the sbh, but you are probably not going to be able to find him if he is competent. So what do you do? You start capping cuz it is the only thing you can do. You proceed to press every key on the keyboard because you know he is going to fire. Any competent sbh will at this point move to cover and take a few pot shots at you and slowly whittle down your health, all the while keeping you from ever capping the tech building. Even still, lets say you manage to kill the sbh and cap the building. He'll just wait for you to leave the tech building and then recap it after you leave and/or kill you once you get down to a low enough health.

It is kinda gay, and the only real counter is to have 2 GDI camp a tech building both with a rep gun, compared to the one that nod needs.

Got no idea for a balanced fix tho. Maybe make sbh have a slower capture rate than everyone else? It would give GDI more time to run back and check the situation out before the tech building turns to neutral and it becomes annoying as all Hell for the GDI capturing person.

[crazfulla]

Agree outposts is imbalanced. The field is too big and open for GDI to be able to control. All the small hills and rocks provide a perfect opportunity for stealth tanks to fire rockets from cover so Meds and mammies can't hit them back. But that has nothing to do with their stealth ability, more the map design.

As for sbh... let them camp the silo. The more people they have camping it the less they have defending their base.

Edited May 14, 2020 by crazfulla

[Syntharn]

i dont see this as a problem for most maps, if GDI has control over the area a cloaked sbh wont be able to make a difference when it comes to controling a tech building long term. like on field X, you park a player in a med tank at comm and a sbh wont have anything to say about it.
If Nod has control over the area then it doesnt matter if they have a sbh there, because it could just aswell be any other unit and it would perform the same, most likely better since there are units that can fight back and hold the ground instead of just hoping GDI passes and leaves.

Outpost as mentioned is one of the more relevant examples i think, since the tech buildings are in remote areas usually a good bit away from where the main fighting is going on, you really want to push past those points if you control them already, compared to comm center on field x which has more general value in holding as staging point for the big attack, i dont think that is quite as true for silo and comm on outpost.
could also work ok on maps like eyes or uphill because those silos are somewhat secluded.

(when is it fair to say a team has overextended and deserves to lose control over tech buildings?)

Overall though i still say you could do this with any infantry unless you are completely baselocked, just sit in a bush or behind a rock and do nothing until you have to, same unimpressive result.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Syntharn
hmmm....

[Mystic~]

I think I agree that this is mostly relevant on large maps, Outposts is the one that happens time and again. If the tunnel network extended to the big hills where the sniper towers are or to the forested area where the rocks are then this might be less of an issue as it would enable infantry to get close and then they could fight if necessary. Most often what I find is infantry can't leave the base, the grassy route is okay so long as you don't run into competent snipers or Mendoza. If GDI loses their economy there's almost nothing they can do to escape being base locked on both fronts. There must be a couple of other maps where it gets this irritating. Crash Site might be one of them as the infantry tunnels in the ship don't exit to field, which they probably should do near the blue light. Even on maps where there is infantry routes like Up Hill, the silos can still be camped and I don't think just saying Patch is necessarily the answer.

My main gripe is SBH can sneak using stealth and then just hang around and remain there a long time, even if they lose it, as we've both said, they can just re-capture it when they leave; where as a GDI player is likely to get spotted eventually. It could be map design that makes this an unfair advantage, but I did think some sort of magnetic field that disrupts stealth to a certain range would make sbh doing this less appealing. I might say don't let sbh carry a rep tool and give them an emp grenade instead so they can still infiltrate, altho might be too powerful if 3-4 sbh can disarm mines on every building at once.

 

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(when is it fair to say a team has overextended and deserves to lose control over tech buildings?)

In an ideal world I think Silo's need to have the terminal inside and probably have half the building sunk underground as it seems unfair that tanks can shell and splash the terminal of players trying to capture it. It seems like this is mainly meant to be an infantry goal or objective.